Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[dhlmaster]

It has been talked about/ asked and I believe the official answer is:

 

Water needs a complete over haul first.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Lets try something here.

(Readies myself for a fail)

 

Who has wants/ desires/ needs for the electrical system in A17?

 

What would you like to see added/ taken away/ fixed?

 

For electricity, I'd like to see it not kill my FPS, especially when I hook up solar panels to a battery bank, that really seems to bug it out. Functionally, I would like refrigerators to be powered to prevent food spoilage, air conditioners to provide a cooling buff. This would be great for those who make their home in the desert.

[Cazmyr]

For electricity, I'd like to see it not kill my FPS, especially when I hook up solar panels to a battery bank, that really seems to bug it out. Functionally, I would like refrigerators to be powered to prevent food spoilage, air conditioners to provide a cooling buff. This would be great for those who make their home in the desert.

 

Or a heater for the Snow Biome.

[Crater Creator]

I am moving in that direction. The are some experimental buoyancy values I added, but not finished yet.

 

Oh! Well, cool! I’m pleasantly surprised, and look forward to playing with it when it’s ready.

 

Doors are 2 blocks that share health. Technically they are stupid and would not know much about weak points. It really all comes down to game play and what is fun.

 

I’ve been very trepidatious about making the zombies too smart in an un-zombie-like way. Zombies aren’t structural engineers. But I have to agree the results of going for a weak point are desirable: zombies clustering around one point to breach a wall, instead of doing a trifling amount of damage in a dozen different spots that gets them nowhere and is more annoying to repair.

 

I can see why people would want zombies to jump - to add that extra challenge and make us more vulnerable to zombie attacks... it just seems a bit odd for a zombie to do. I'm not quite saying it would immersion breaking, but I don't think anyone initial thought of "what can a zombie do" would include jumping. That is a more complex action that takes more thought than what most zombie portrayals allow for. It takes balance, judgment of momentum, and managing a landing... just a bit odd for a mindless remenence of a person and not so "primitive" of a movement I'd expect.

 

I'm not against it, but puts it a bit more on the slap stick comedy side for me.

 

I disagree. I might change my mind upon seeing it in game, but I tend to think of zombies being mostly limited in their higher thought processes than their physical abilities. To put it differently, frogs and squirrels and all sorts of animals can jump across gaps despite their small brains and inability to think like us. Sure it takes balance and dexterity and all that, but it’s still in the same class as running, crawling, flying, and other forms of locomotion that zombies can apparently handle.

 

City and town signs

 

One thing that I would like to know is what city or town I am in. I can look at the map and see the name (in editing mode) but that does not help me because I don't know were I am in game.

 

I really think this could happen, because two important prerequisites are already coded. The towns are already given procedural names, and signs can already render arbitrary text.

[Lonestarcanuck]

More practical use for the electric system beyond lights and defense. Tie them into production.

 

Why do we need a generator or battery to power a light, when we have magical workbenches and cement mixers that do massive amounts of work with no one around to man them?

 

This is a good point. maybe Mixers and WB should be like the replicator in Empyrion and require some sort of fuel.

[CplCritter]

My imagination tells me that people would simply dig wider moats....

 

There is that too. Which is why I would vote to increase zombie damage at a steeper rate based on player lvl if we want to increase the challenge from zombies, but this isn't a democracy lol. In The Fun Pimps we Trust!

[rdunham3]

My imagination tells me that people would simply dig wider moats....

 

There is a sweet spot where you can still attack (melee) across a narrow air gap. Wider moats mean you're forced to use some sort of consumable to deal with them, either prior to their fall or once they're in the moat-pit.

 

Players can of course jump much farther than we would ever want zombies to, so the player still has ingress/egress regardless. That's even without considering the temporary frame-block "drawbridge" that a wider moat might warrant, especially for those of us who are Super Mario challenged.

 

I'd like to see one zombie able to cross a one-block gap. Maybe the football zombie and wight, otherwise quite similar, could be differentiated by one having this ability? It would also make sense for the dogs but I really don't want them to gain any extra annoyance value. They're already more than annoying enough. (Somebody PLEASE fix their front-leg pivot point speed-spinning!)

[DeadMole]

I care, I want to play it as soon as possbile

 

Maybe they should release it even if there's a glitch corrupting save files then, I'm sure you would be very glad to play it that soon then.

[rdunham3]

I’ve been very trepidatious about making the zombies too smart in an un-zombie-like way. Zombies aren’t structural engineers. But I have to agree the results of going for a weak point are desirable: zombies clustering around one point to breach a wall, instead of doing a trifling amount of damage in a dozen different spots that gets them nowhere and is more annoying to repair.

 

Since they can see us through windows, it seems very reasonable to have them try to smash straight through the window rather than walking 2-3 blocks further to attempt to bash down the door instead. Since currently they're at least as likely to flail at the wall between the window and the door than actually hit either of the thin, weak points...just about anything that improves them is welcome to me. Hopefully they get coded to at least consider a nearby (2-3 block sideways) window in addition to the immediately adjacent door, especially if another zombie is already at the door or they saw you through the window in the past few seconds.

[Royal Deluxe]

Maybe they should release it even if there's a glitch corrupting save files then, I'm sure you would be very glad to play it that soon then.

 

No idea how far they allready screwed the parts together, but i think its still more than that. More like

You spawn without being able to get XP, You try to build a Stoneaxe and the game says "You need perk "Comes soon""

Finally you find a gun with the ammotype "Its not done" , you engage your first zombie that suddenly charge you and rams you to death.

After you respawn under the Map. You ask yourself if it was the right decision to start a version they never want to release during you still fall at -234 545 meters.

[SittingDuck]

My imagination tells me that people would simply dig wider moats....

 

I bet they make it so wide, that zombies start to spawn in the moat....

[Crater Creator]

Thinking of performance... think of a blood moon hoard of 16 running at your base and approaching your moat at high speeds. As they get to the edge, they all leap in the air like the little ninjas they are to clear your pit of death. First, it would be funny as hell and very entertaining... would LOVE to see that happen. But, what would that take performance-wise to make it a smooth ordeal? Does this voxel game have the ability to handle all the action? I'm honestly asking because I have very little knowledge on modding and what the game can/can't handle. Also, imagine that scenario playing out on a server with 10ish players on... is it realistic?

 

I don't know. Given my druthers, I'd like many zombie types to have approximately the same physical abilities as the player. They can't aim and shoot a gun, because that takes human-level intelligence, but they can jump as far as you can. But in cases where AI performance would become an issue, there are alternatives.

 

For getting across a gap, you could have one class of zombie that can make a bridge, perhaps by using its body or expelling a substance that hardens on contact. The other zombies then use that bridge in their pathing. Similarly, a digger class of zombie could allow zombies in general to get underground, without requiring every zombie you want underground to dig for themselves. One zombie enabling the passage of many should make for easier AI calculations, and also make it more important for players to select targets wisely without resorting to weird stuff like regenerating health radiation.

 

---

As for Roland's counterpoint that people will dig wider moats, there is a balancing act here. Namely, the player has to get in and out of the base somehow. Currently you can make a little gap and hop over it without even slowing down. The larger that gap has to be, the harder it is to make the jump. Once it's too big to jump, you're going to have to redesign your base, and in my humble opinion that is where base design gets interesting. Do you opt for easier ingress/egress for yourself, or better defense against jumping zombies? For either downside, is there a different tactic you can add to compensate?

 

I'm getting off on a tangent here, but the most fun comes from tactics that are partially effective. If no zombie can ever get across a gap, that's bad. But at the other end of the spectrum, it's also bad if every zombie can leap unencumbered across any size gap. What would be most fun is if a gap stops some types of zombies outright, while others can get across with some difficulty (they take damage, or take time lining up the jump, or sacrifice their body to make a bridge), while others can get across with no trouble at all (like vultures).

[DeadMole]

No idea how far they allready screwed the parts together, but i think its still more than that. More like

You spawn without being able to get XP, You try to build a Stoneaxe and the game says "You need perk "Comes soon""

Finally you find a gun with the ammotype "Its not done" , you engage your first zombie that suddenly charge you and rams you to death.

After you respawn under the Map. You ask yourself if it was the right decision to start a version they never want to release during you still fall at -234 545 meters.

 

Or try to use a medkit and it doesn't work, like in the latest video from MM haha. I remember how people were upset on YT when he did his Dead is Dead playthrough for A15, ranting at him saying he's just trolling fans and should release it already. I'm sure those wonderful people would have been very glad to play it and encounter that same bug there was with a wood frame stuck in the world at some point. Release it already! You released it and it's unplayable!

[Roland]

Rather than making zombies jump horizontally I would rather see vultures able to pick them up and carry them across. That would make vultures priority targets, it wouldn't result in a flood of zombies getting past moats, and it wouldn't result in a meta of just digging wider and wider moats. A moat would still protect from being overwhelmed but if vultures were ignored then more and more zombies would be dropped inside.

 

I would also like to see spiders that can crawl around in all directions on a vertical surface instead of just up and down.

 

 

EDIT: I also like the bridging ability Crater mentioned. I loved the idea of gore blocks and was sad that they never quite reached their potential before being axed. So a bridge made of whatever ichor they vomit up that hardens into a resin could be a cool idea similar to gore blocks.

[Crater Creator]

Since they can see us through windows, it seems very reasonable to have them try to smash straight through the window rather than walking 2-3 blocks further to attempt to bash down the door instead. Since currently they're at least as likely to flail at the wall between the window and the door than actually hit either of the thin, weak points...just about anything that improves them is welcome to me. Hopefully they get coded to at least consider a nearby (2-3 block sideways) window in addition to the immediately adjacent door, especially if another zombie is already at the door or they saw you through the window in the past few seconds.

 

I think we can agree it's a tricky thing to get right. Sure, the example of a window works well because generally the window will be weaker than the wall. But visibility and strength are really two different qualities, given we have bulletproof glass now for instance.

 

The problem I could see is if you're progressively upgrading some of your walls week after week, and it just so happens that the zombies always come after the wooden walls instead of the cobblestone walls, then the cobblestone walls instead of the concrete walls, then the concrete walls instead of the steel walls, etc. That would break immersion in the sense that it would remind you the zombies are operating under the rules of a game, instead of just acting like zombies.

[sillls]

Sounds cool Roland. The only problem is the AI for the vultures. Just played some 7D2D and fought one. Let me put it this way. Which do you think is smarter, a zombie vulture or a lamp post?

 

They can hardly path around one to get to the player much less do anything like pick up a walker and taxi it over a moat.

[Roland]

Sounds cool Roland. The only problem is the AI for the vultures. Just played some 7D2D and fought one. Let me put it this way. Which do you think is smarter, a zombie vulture or a lamp post?

 

They can hardly path around one to get to the player much less do anything like pick up a walker and taxi it over a moat.

 

A16 vultures are pre-faatal.

 

faatal + vulture = death from above....

[Matyese]

Maybe they should release it even if there's a glitch corrupting save files then, I'm sure you would be very glad to play it that soon then.

 

it would be experimental so it doesn't matter, I would have to restart my game few times anyway.

[sillls]

Sleepers make the game easier

 

The game used to be a bit drawn out and boring having to break though every single door in a building...

But now with sleepers, all I have to do is walk up to a door and let the sleeper break it down for me.

Thanks Fun pimps!

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

A16 vultures are pre-faatal.

 

faatal + vulture = death from above....

 

lol. I'd love to see that!

 

But faatal has got his work cut out for him if he thinks that's going to wreck my base.

[sillls]

The plains biome is best for hunting

 

Really. If your going hunting, the plains biome is the place to be. I run into more wild animals like deer and pigs there than any other biome. I am sorry to see it go.

 

 

Hoping they change there minds or at least add more wild animals to other biomes.

[kamer1337]

there should be special zombie which jump into player direction in certain distance

[Guppycur]

Vultures that land, then attack like dogs, would be cool. Nothing short of that will be cool.

[Royal Deluxe]

If a Vulture touch the ground it become a Vulthemoth

[CplCritter]

I disagree. I might change my mind upon seeing it in game, but I tend to think of zombies being mostly limited in their higher thought processes than their physical abilities. To put it differently, frogs and squirrels and all sorts of animals can jump across gaps despite their small brains and inability to think like us. Sure it takes balance and dexterity and all that, but it’s still in the same class as running, crawling, flying, and other forms of locomotion that zombies can apparently handle.

 

You make a good point. I'm thinking more along the lines of staying true to a more classical thinking of zombie... Think - Walking Dead, Dawn of the Dead, Night of the Living Dead, etc. We've obviously stretched that imagination for vultures to fly mindlessly which is fine. The game should not mimic real life and be limited on only what is realistically feasible... Again, not against adding jumping. It could add some comedic relief to the game and a bit of a challenge. I think Roland kind of nailed it on the head though. People would just build wider gaps in their trench and carry on as normal. However; you still need to get accross so that would limit you to underground or a draw bridge as access if you didn't want to zombies to follow your ramp/jump technique over a trench. A concern still remains... Would there be a performance loss if you had a 16+ horde on blood moon playing leap frog at the same time over your trench? Making those jumps glitchy would just take all of the fun out of seeing it happen.

[CplCritter]

Rather than making zombies jump horizontally I would rather see vultures able to pick them up and carry them across. That would make vultures priority targets, it wouldn't result in a flood of zombies getting past moats, and it wouldn't result in a meta of just digging wider and wider moats. A moat would still protect from being overwhelmed but if vultures were ignored then more and more zombies would be dropped inside.

 

I would also like to see spiders that can crawl around in all directions on a vertical surface instead of just up and down.

 

 

EDIT: I also like the bridging ability Crater mentioned. I loved the idea of gore blocks and was sad that they never quite reached their potential before being axed. So a bridge made of whatever ichor they vomit up that hardens into a resin could be a cool idea similar to gore blocks.

 

Haha - I love everything mentioned here. Vultures carrying zombies would make me pee a little. Could you imagine horde night? Any structure open to the skies is fair game. The spiders are too easy to render harmless with a little ledge. Making them crawl across overhangs and ceilings would add a crazy creepy vibe.

 

While zombies spewing a bridge is a bit farfetched, I really like that idea. It could be made of a substance that can only be burned away so a well-placed Molotov is your only hope and could burn the bridge down and catch zombies on fire if timed just right.

[CplCritter]

A16 vultures are pre-faatal.

 

faatal + vulture = death from above....

 

That plants so many ideas in my mind! Vulture swoops down and picks up a small stone... stealthily flies high above the unsuspecting player who is standing there sorting his backpack and boom!! Death by falling rock! It would make you think twice about standing in an area with open sky... and also adds value to taking out those damn vultures besides the fact they can now carry zombies too.