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"The PvP Update"


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Awesome post(s) by thorntree.

 

Can someone point to a game that they feel is doing PVP right other than a game that only exists to PVP. I mean a game with the elements that 7DTD esposes; survival, crafting, and 'tower defense' for lack of a better word.

 

I'd love to PVP in this game but it's the griefing and the steep curve whenever you start from behind that kills it. Short of 'gentlemens' agreements' what are some ways to keep it competitive without the sort of all-or-nothing blow outs?

 

It seems a little contrived but I think something where different factions or clans on a server must give notice to the clan whose base they wish to raid. A sort of 24 or 48 hour "we are coming for you!" After all, what is the fun of a raid when there is nobody home to defend it? That's just griefing pure and simple. Plus I like the notion of offense vs. defense. None of that would stop PvP outside of a declared raid; anything is fair game outside of the bases with the claim blocks or whatever.

 

But ultimately such rules only prove that someone will work to find a way to circumvent it and so the server admin is the final arbiter.

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Awesome post(s) by thorntree.

 

Can someone point to a game that they feel is doing PVP right other than a game that only exists to PVP. I mean a game with the elements that 7DTD esposes; survival, crafting, and 'tower defense' for lack of a better word.

 

I'd love to PVP in this game but it's the griefing and the steep curve whenever you start from behind that kills it. Short of 'gentlemens' agreements' what are some ways to keep it competitive without the sort of all-or-nothing blow outs?

 

It seems a little contrived but I think something where different factions or clans on a server must give notice to the clan whose base they wish to raid. A sort of 24 or 48 hour "we are coming for you!" After all, what is the fun of a raid when there is nobody home to defend it? That's just griefing pure and simple. Plus I like the notion of offense vs. defense. None of that would stop PvP outside of a declared raid; anything is fair game outside of the bases with the claim blocks or whatever.

 

But ultimately such rules only prove that someone will work to find a way to circumvent it and so the server admin is the final arbiter.

 

EVE Online does this very well by allowing the attackers to take down the defenses of a base (A huge investment in time and manpower to begin with) then towers will go into a state of invulnerability for a defined length of time in hours. At the most, a 24 or so hour period (if they are full of strontium.) This mechanism works very well in that the attacker never knows how long they will have to wait after the initial attack, and the defender has a known amount of time to rally forces or attempt to move assets before their base is laid to waste. From my experiences, EVE Online is a game with Base/empire building, but also a very robust PVP aspect.

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There is easy solution to all this problems with base raiding:

Every base should have "claimfire" build, without it its not a base.

 

Claimstones need to be connected to each other (zones overlapping).

In this overlapping zones there should be "claimfire" object. There should be a limit on how much fuel this claimfire can store (lets say 24 hours). If fire is burning, connected claimstones have 999 strength, if not, server defined strength.

 

Once first block looses its first level hp (you can upgrade wood frame twice, each giving you 200hp i think, that makes this object loose its first level hp after destroying its first 200hp), claimstones make all blocks invul and you cannot refuel (or turn off) your claimfire until all the fuel is gone and all the blocks are repaired (you can only repair your blocks if claimfire is turned off).

 

So every time you login, you put on your claimfire amount of fuel you want your base to be protected with. In this time, attacker can start raiding, but has to wait for said time for base to be raidable. With some timer notice, attacker knows when to be online to finish things, but also you can be there to defend it.

 

As far as PvP goes, current implementation is OK, apart from hackers. Last time I got killed, I managed to kill that person back and his gun had 450 bullets in magazine for example.

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Another shameless plug to my current project: Accelerated PvP. I'll list the main goals as to how it fixes the problems with PVP. This is an active project I'm working on and the server is up RIGHT NOW.

 

1) Slow progression - The slow nature of 7dtd does not do well for PvP. The amount of time it takes to become relevant in an established server is a huge investment. Because of this, the problems below just get out of control.

 

2.) Slow resource gathering - It takes a long time to gather resources. Once you have gathered a good amount, it can all be taken away easily and while you are offline, this discourages offline raiding, but many servers tend to just make offline raiding hard, and by hard I mean an 8 hour exercise of holding the left mouse button. This is not fun. This is absurd.

 

3.) Slow base construction - You build a base, it's concreted with a spike pit surrounding it. You spent the better part of three days building it and dammit it's not going down while you are logged. Hell, with most servers, your base isn't going down even when you are online.

 

I'm going to pause here for a bit. Because of the large investment of time and energy, most admins (rightfully so) ACTIVELY DISCOURAGE VIA POLICY base raiding and griefing. In my opinion, those two things are some of the most fun things there are to the game.

 

4.) Way too much space. People use stealth and distance to help protect their base. Basically, they are saying they don't actually want to participate in PvP, because they hide their base away from the action, reasonably so because of the above mentioned costs to getting a foot in the door.

 

I could go on about the problems of PvP, but let's talk about the solutions I've already implemented. (They need testing. Please test them)

 

Fast progression. I restarted the server yesterday (and will again on Friday). Within a few hours of playing I was pushing level 50, with 10 skill points per level I had maxed out blunt weapons and scavenging, quicker crafting, etc.)

 

Great loot. I broke into a gunsafe and immediately had a pistol, hunting rifle, and a shotgun. If it came down to it, I could do some damage in a PvP scenario. Zombies are plentiful and also drop good loot. Lots of airdrops and treasure quests. Loot does not respawn in normal containers though.

 

Fast resource collection and cheap base cost. Each night, to protect from the hordes, I set up a small base with wooden/scrap walls with spikes around. It was cheap to do and I got a lot of levels for it. Abandoned it as I moved on. By the end of my session, I had built a pit base in a cave with some zombie collection spikes. It was decent, but I still had some trouble with the horde literally raining down on me.

 

Super small map. at 1500 radius, there is no where to run or hide. You wanted PvP, you got it.

 

Short map life cycle. Because of the frenzied nature of progression, maps will probably only last a week or two.

 

Weak blocks, decent online blocks, invincible offline blocks. - At 25% durability, blocks go down fast. They go up just as fast. Controlled blocks are at x8 (Effective x2), and control blocks can be made easily from scrap. Control blocks themselves aren't durable. 24 hour offline durability, then your base is vulnerable. Don't like it? Too bad, the sessions only last a week or two. Besides, you have levels, graba weapon and take someone's base.

 

That's the main goal of this project, Accelerated PvP.

 

The reasond PvP sucks right now is because base capturing is the best but it takes WAY TOO MUCH time to build and invest in a base right now, so we make it nearly impossible to take a base, which ruins the point. If you want to try this mod out (It's only xml), just Search for Accelerated PvP. Server is dead right now so if you are by yourself you will have to deal with aggressive zombies. You can still check out the xml mods and see how quick it is to progress.

 

Enjoy!

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Another shameless plug to my current project: Accelerated PvP. I'll list the main goals as to how it fixes the problems with PVP. This is an active project I'm working on and the server is up RIGHT NOW.

 

1) Slow progression - The slow nature of 7dtd does not do well for PvP. The amount of time it takes to become relevant in an established server is a huge investment. Because of this, the problems below just get out of control.

 

2.) Slow resource gathering - It takes a long time to gather resources. Once you have gathered a good amount, it can all be taken away easily and while you are offline, this discourages offline raiding, but many servers tend to just make offline raiding hard, and by hard I mean an 8 hour exercise of holding the left mouse button. This is not fun. This is absurd.

 

3.) Slow base construction - You build a base, it's concreted with a spike pit surrounding it. You spent the better part of three days building it and dammit it's not going down while you are logged. Hell, with most servers, your base isn't going down even when you are online.

 

I'm going to pause here for a bit. Because of the large investment of time and energy, most admins (rightfully so) ACTIVELY DISCOURAGE VIA POLICY base raiding and griefing. In my opinion, those two things are some of the most fun things there are to the game.

 

4.) Way too much space. People use stealth and distance to help protect their base. Basically, they are saying they don't actually want to participate in PvP, because they hide their base away from the action, reasonably so because of the above mentioned costs to getting a foot in the door.

 

I could go on about the problems of PvP, but let's talk about the solutions I've already implemented. (They need testing. Please test them)

 

Fast progression. I restarted the server yesterday (and will again on Friday). Within a few hours of playing I was pushing level 50, with 10 skill points per level I had maxed out blunt weapons and scavenging, quicker crafting, etc.)

 

Great loot. I broke into a gunsafe and immediately had a pistol, hunting rifle, and a shotgun. If it came down to it, I could do some damage in a PvP scenario. Zombies are plentiful and also drop good loot. Lots of airdrops and treasure quests. Loot does not respawn in normal containers though.

 

Fast resource collection and cheap base cost. Each night, to protect from the hordes, I set up a small base with wooden/scrap walls with spikes around. It was cheap to do and I got a lot of levels for it. Abandoned it as I moved on. By the end of my session, I had built a pit base in a cave with some zombie collection spikes. It was decent, but I still had some trouble with the horde literally raining down on me.

 

Super small map. at 1500 radius, there is no where to run or hide. You wanted PvP, you got it.

 

Short map life cycle. Because of the frenzied nature of progression, maps will probably only last a week or two.

 

Weak blocks, decent online blocks, invincible offline blocks. - At 25% durability, blocks go down fast. They go up just as fast. Controlled blocks are at x8 (Effective x2), and control blocks can be made easily from scrap. Control blocks themselves aren't durable. 24 hour offline durability, then your base is vulnerable. Don't like it? Too bad, the sessions only last a week or two. Besides, you have levels, graba weapon and take someone's base.

 

That's the main goal of this project, Accelerated PvP.

 

The reasond PvP sucks right now is because base capturing is the best but it takes WAY TOO MUCH time to build and invest in a base right now, so we make it nearly impossible to take a base, which ruins the point. If you want to try this mod out (It's only xml), just Search for Accelerated PvP. Server is dead right now so if you are by yourself you will have to deal with aggressive zombies. You can still check out the xml mods and see how quick it is to progress.

 

Enjoy!

 

I can appreciate that you have modded some changes to make the pvp 'as you want it' but I and most other pvp players would actually disagree with many of your points. I wont go through them all but I did want to focus on one in particular with regard to the time investment.

 

Many many players in pvp really enjoy taking the time to build up a truly strong base (no matter the protection settings). As with all things in life the harder something is to achieve the more satisfying it becomes and when you finish off that super secure fortress you have been working on its genuinely a great feeling, especially when you know its safe enough that you can log off and not worry about it (too much).

 

A lot of players dont want fast resources or fast building, they want the opposite, they want it to be hard and when you come across that giant fortress they want to have a feeling of awe and excitement at the time taken to do it.

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It's gonna sound crazy but I would get rid of or at least make the 7 day hordes optional.

 

As of the moment they only serve to punish the few players who stayed logged in, or new players who happen to join the server at the exact wrong time. Most established players will be avoiding them underground anyway as it's usually one of the best options for avoiding both zombies and players.

 

This is by far one of the most awkward and immersion-breaking parts of joining any server where people don't all live in one spot- and obviously a balancing issue.

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I can appreciate that you have modded some changes to make the pvp 'as you want it' but I and most other pvp players would actually disagree with many of your points. I wont go through them all but I did want to focus on one in particular with regard to the time investment.

 

Many many players in pvp really enjoy taking the time to build up a truly strong base (no matter the protection settings). As with all things in life the harder something is to achieve the more satisfying it becomes and when you finish off that super secure fortress you have been working on its genuinely a great feeling, especially when you know its safe enough that you can log off and not worry about it (too much).

 

A lot of players dont want fast resources or fast building, they want the opposite, they want it to be hard and when you come across that giant fortress they want to have a feeling of awe and excitement at the time taken to do it.

 

Everyone has their preferences, and I hope that my changes speak to at least some people (they certainly speak to me.). I love griefing and sacking bases, and some of the most fun I've had in pvp in 7days is protracted base sieges. The problem is in that one of them, the assaulting team (it was 3v3) could not possibly win due to the high health of the blocks. They couldn't get in and we were just respawning in the base if we were killed. It was fun for a while but the thrill of the fight wore off when I knew we couldn't lose. I'll keep working on it and hope that some people will want to join in :)

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I just found this thread and still need to read through all of it and the other LCB thread more carefully.

There are some interesting ideas out there and many things that would make stuff more interesting for PVP, but if I had to select one thing that would in my experience make PVP better right now, it would be to fix the broken offline claim modifier.

 

The boys at Ground Zero run a nice server and the rules keep most griefing in check. Most of the examples of blatant greifing from this thread (jailing the starting points, reducing a base to rumble, undermining a base, etc) would never happen on the GZ server because the players who did that simply wouldn't be allowed on anymore. However, it would make the PVP dynamic so much better if the LCB's offline modifier worked properly. I'd even be cool with it if the LCB ONLY worked while offline. That is, no LCB modifier at all when I'm online, but make it invinsible while I'm offline (or, at least, give the server admins that option again).

 

There isn't any skill to raiding a base while the owner is offline, but if you can do it while they are online then you have got some skills. Unless TFP decide to completely overhaul the PVP mechanics then a lot of the ideas in this thread may just be pie-in-the-sky. If you join a pub, expect it to not be a great PVP experience. But a few minor tweaks can make 7DTD a fun PVP experience on private servers where that server's rules are clearly defined and enforced.

 

Admittedly, I'm more of the type that figures you have to have another PLAYER if you are doing PVP. I don't think it is PVP if it is you against another guy's base.

Just my take.

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  • 8 months later...

I will start with player progression and experience. My opinion is there shouldn't be any. Make all players maxed out on all skills and perks from day one and remove experience from the game. With that aspect of the game removed everyone will be relatively equal and there will be no insurmountable differences in strength between someone who has been on the server for weeks and a new player who just signed on. PvP worked so much better before the game introduced all the experience, skills, and perks.

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Pimp fight!

 

EDIT: Sorry, that wasn't very productive of me.

 

I agree about no grinding in a PvP environment. Safe places should be kept to a minimum and any guards should deal with problems quickly (so no running around after the people breaking the rules, just kill them outright).

 

EDIT2: Also, I think instead of maxing everyone out in everything, give them a certain number of points and let them pick the perks they want without being able to max everything. Then people can differentiate themselves at least a little and try out spec each other.

Edited by Maharin (see edit history)
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Imho making a good PvP mode (or a game in general) is like voting in a new law, so you have to think about how people can exploit your system.

*smartass mode off* :)

 

I think we need

- truly random player spawns to prevent spawn point preparations

- a 3. spawn option for bedrolls because you can abuse the current system

- less noisy player sounds

- fixes for certain bugs (e.g., there is a bug that allows players to see and shoot through the terrain. The claim block can be abused to find protected areas. The minibike frame can be used to build an indestructible wall afaik.)

- protection for newbies

Edited by Pille (see edit history)
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Air drops: I think the loot inside should be more about short term advantages (so buffs, healing, that sort of thing). Also, the time it takes to loot them should be increased either by making the time to open longer or make you have bust it open to get the contents. That way it can get be a bit more competitive to get what's inside.

 

Zombies: They need to be there but... I can see them being used as a weapon. Back in the early EverQuest days there was a concept of "trains". Where people would get the attention of monsters and as more would tag along the player would flee. Soon there were a whole lot of monsters following the player until they exited the zone (bad news for anyone else there or just coming in) or they died. Sometimes people would use the trains to their advantage by dragging a bunch of monsters into the midst of someone else's fight, nearly guaranteeing they would die. So I can see someone doing the same sort of thing with a horde or just a large group of zombies. Good thing or bad thing? Hard to tell.

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So I can see someone doing the same sort of thing with a horde or just a large group of zombies. Good thing or bad thing? Hard to tell.

It's hard to prevent anyway (how would you stop players from using this tatics?) and it makes sense. So don't remove it.

Edited by Pille (see edit history)
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How would the game have to be balanced to make PVP viable?

Broad strokes.

I'm no PVP player so while I can see the balance issues in the abstract, I am more of a neutral observer here. =)

 

 

 

Sound

 

As mentioned here recently it's really hard to sneak up on someone if your food level drops below 50% or so and your character has an orgasm that can be heard from half a kilometer away.

 

Hiding yourself or your base is equally hard for the same reason.

 

Keep in mind that the notion of hiding being the only defense can not be the base for everything. It is one aspect!

If it can be made sufficiently hard to break into bases, hiding would not be the only viable solution.

 

 

 

Offline raiding / griefing vs PVP

 

PVP in theory:

2-5 players have an exciting time of hide and seek or assaulting someone's base.

 

PVP in practice:

You log in and your base has been reduced to rubble.

Every. Single. Day.

 

Ark has turrets and NPC (dinosaurs) and 99% of the PVP in that game looks like... you log in and your base has been reduced to rubble (and all your dinos killed).

Can NPC and turrets defend a base while the player is offline or will having turrets and NPC only increase the impact of griefing on the victim because he also has to rebuild turrets and find/hire NPC again?

 

I talked to MM about this and he does not consider a separate (and working) offline claim protection a necessity. Is that so?

(previous claim stone topic: here)

 

On the 4 or 5 PVP servers were I asked no one even knew if "offline claim protection" actually worked. (as in having a higher x than when online)

 

 

 

Loss and recovering from it

 

Okay, so you got raided and you respawn around the central hub in your undies.

 

Spawn spots are static so on an "established" PVP server with an "alpha tribe" you now log into the steel cages built around all the newbie spawn spots and would have to knock down the wall with your fists.

With only 2 layers you have to destroy 4 blocks for a total of 13 RL hours of punching.

You would of course starve to death and respawn in a different cage several times before you had a chance to get out of one such spot.

 

Oh, and before you laugh it off as a "no one would ever do that"... I logged into a PVP server, looked up, and saw this:

huUKtMWt.jpg

Land claimed, naturally. I am not making this up...

 

 

But let's say you are dedicated enough to this particular server to not quit but instead invest a few RL days to get back out of the starter cages and that the alpha tribe is terribly neglect about maintaining their cages.

Ideally you have caches of gear hidden away but let's say they were found as well.

 

On a PVE server where people build awesome bases instead of trying to cave each other's heads in the resource balance works well enough.

On a PVP server... should you harvest resources faster?

I'm not talking about digging faster - but instead of getting 25 rocks and 2 iron from a stone block you might get 100 rocks and 8 iron from the same block.

 

If fighting players is supposed to be a substantial part of the game, base building / repair and resource harvesting needs to adjust.

 

 

 

Explosives / Rockets

 

On a PVE server, some players use TNT for mining / excavating which is no problem whatsoever.

 

I tried asking around on a few PVP servers today but that was a complete waste of time. No one knows ♥♥♥♥. I got a few guesses and opinions and zero usable data.

 

On a PVP server... how well do rockets and dynamite work?

How many of each do you need to get through an iron / vault door or open a chest?

 

Does it matter which block (upper/lower/before) of a door you target?

 

 

 

Time management

 

How long in RL units should it take to knock down a steel block or door?

 

Right now tools and skills are really powerful.

Near 400 DPS for a steel pick so with a x8 modifier, a steel block lasts 5 minutes, a vault door 8 minutes.

 

Does anyone actually do that or does everyone use explosives? (see above)

 

 

Blocks like "stone" have a

<property name="LPHardnessScale" value="2" />

 

If it works as designed (did not test it myself) then a stone block only has a 2x claim modifier instead of whatever the server setting is.

With a steel pick that's two hits tops so the most obvious way to attack someone's base would be to undermine it and let it collapse instead of going through the much harder front door.

Or am I missing something?

 

Naturally that doesn't count bedrock bases but should it be a requirement to build at bedrock to avoid this cheesy tactic?

 

 

Ok Gazz you took the time to post as a neutral observer, allow me to respond as a partisan one

 

1. Sound

 

Sound has changed dramatically over the last few Alphas. You used to be able to hear an auger from at least 3-4k away, which was silly, likewise you could hear a forge clinking away from a good 1k+. Now its hard to hear anything over 100m away so some thing such as gunshots and augers probably need their audible range increasing. On your example of trying to sneak up on someone with 50% food i suggest you are not approaching this with the right mindset (as a non pvp player). PvP players take this into account and smart ones try to stay near full all the time, If i see another player or a base then i make sure i wont be making hungry noises before approaching them.

 

2. Offline raiding

 

Anti raid base design is an art, it takes time to learn all the tricks to making your loot safe. At this point in the game I never get successfully raided even when offline a couple of days. I am not going to give away all my hard earned experience here but suffice to say, if you get raided and they get into your loot room (this topic doesn't include hackers, different topic) then YOU made an error in your design or you play on a server with protection VERY low.

 

Sub topic - Griefing. If you play on a server that allows griefing, and all the popular PVP servers state their rules, then you know what to expect. Note however that if your claims are well hidden/protected and you have some concrete/steel fortress that no-one, and i do mean no-one, is going to take that base down because the time investment is simply insane and the reward is at best minimal. If you dont like the thought of being griefed (as defined by a particular server) then guess what, don't play on servers that allow it! personally I play on full no rules servers, anything goes I find to be good fun.

 

3. Recovering from a raid

 

Quick point here on your 'static' spawn points, I have never, in the ridiculous playtime I have, ever spawned into a player made cage or know anyone who has. I did once appear on a couple of spikes, once.

 

Any smart player on a pvp server has a recovery stash, personally I will have 2-4 and they will have everything you could ever want to get back up and running straight away, I have not need them for a looong time but they are there, just in case. When and how you hide them is the trick of it but I leave that up to you. the point is that, as the saying goes, to put all your eggs in one basket is really stupid.

 

4. Explosives - currently non viable as raiding tools, not much else to say except that if you only have one claim and they get it out them tnt becomes extremely viable for making a big smoking hole where someones base used to be :)

 

5. Time management

 

I am afraid your example of timings is irrelevant because every server has different setting, suffice to say that on, say, x32 protection, with miner 69 on level 5 and 600Q steel pickaxe it takes a LOOOOONNGGGG time to take down a triple reinforced steel door. Time management is all about your skill level+your tools level+the location of what you are hitting vs protection factor of the claims and IF you have people with you.

 

Your example of stone is simply wrong, its protected like anything else and still takes time to destroy.

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IMO that is a big part of the problem.

 

There is so much vertical progression in the game that it would never pass muster in a PVP game.

 

There is a damage factor of 5 between "no skill and crappy weapons" and "max skill and top weapons" and if you factor in armor and high wellness it's over 20.

 

You can tell me about "player skill" whatever you want but if I do 20x as much relative damage then I'll win that "fight".

 

If I was told to rebalance the game for PVP I would have to create a different balance.

 

  • You get XP for killing zombies but not for players. You get ego points for doing the latter...
     
     
  • All skills like Heavy Armor, Mining Tools, or Rifles go straight out the window.
    There will be no grinding skill.
     
     
  • You can buy perks from skill points but they dont have as much punch, either. No 2x damage modifier.
    Maybe +30% is manageable.
     
     
  • Weapons and parts retain QL but a QL 1 part does not have 40% but 66% of a QL 600 parts' stats.

Much less "progression" and therefore a far more level playing field but you can still do all the things you do in the vanilla (PVE) game - with the exception of watching skill numbers go up.

 

 

So here we go...

 

There are only 2 types of games that involve players killing other players, the first type you can think of as CoD or the BF series, these have progression but its minimal and a level 1 player can quite easily kill a level 100 player, death has zero impact or penalty and there is no 'working' on your character or skills, sometimes you get a new unlock but its no big upgrade usually.

 

The second type of game, and here I will use WoW as an example, has a very wide and tall progression tree where the skills and gear difference between say a level 10 and a level 100 is massive. Depending on the ruleset you may lose all your items when you die, lose experience and or time/progression. Building powerful characters in this type of game requires hard work.

 

7DTD started off more like the first type of game and this was because health was capped at 100 and armour did not work and therefore some level 1 could kill you with headshot from a crossbow quite easily and there was no wellness loss so dying had no penalty, pvp was therefore not very exciting because all you would lose was your crossbow/weapon and you would suffer no other penalties.

 

over time, as we got loot quality for weapons, armour and tools, as we got wellness increased to 200 (250 with perks) and perks to increase damage and reduce damage taken PVP changed to where it is today. Today (assuming vanilla settings) there is a noticeable difference between a player who has worked really hard to improve their health, armour and weapons and one who has not. Can the level 1 still kill you (with a bow now instead of a crossbow) ? well not easily no, but neither is it impossible for a skilled player who chooses the right time to attack. If you lose your high end weapon and perhaps your armour too (if playing drop all) then this can be a significant setback and if you die a lot then your wellness will get hammered.

 

For me and I think most PVP players in 7DTD we dont want the COD type gameplay, we want something where your hard work makes a difference, otherwise why invest time into the game? we want to fight for the small incremental increases in power that will, eventually, make you more of a badass.

 

The wonderful thing about 7DTD is its a sandbox and how YOU play PVP, right now, with the game in its current form, has consequences and if you want to bumble around picking fights you cant win (low level bow and no armour v full iron armour with a sniper rifle) then sure, you can, but the smart player picks their perks and invests their points in a way that allows them the freedom to play as they want rather than be constrained by 'hard coded' gameplay styles.

 

Lastly it should absolutely not be a level playing field except that everyone has the same options and choices but if I make better decisions and play longer and smarter then I should have an advantage, this is no different to anything in real life, you work hard at something and you get good at it/richer/healthier. this is how life works, don't try and channel us into some twitch playstyle because If your pvp players want that they will go play other games that are vastly better at it such as COD and BF.

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@Bloom: I really wonder whether most PvPers really want what you do in regards to progression and an unequal playing field. In theory someone might say they would like the challenge of starting on a server that is already at day 100 with most others already well established but in reality people often quit a server and never return if they die enough to reduce their wellness to 70. I think you are at the hard-core end of the spectrum in this regard.

 

I think that there can be progression and grind to get mats but that they shouldn't be as long term and grindy as they are in the current vanilla game. Getting more resources for harvesting, and shortening the progression from low to max would be good IMO. Right now we have a lot of players reporting that they grind exclusively to get their skills up before they start engaging other players. Making it a faster journey to the point that typical players like to start actually PvPing would make the early game less of a chore before the "real playing" begins. Also new spawns could have a better chance of staying off the radar until they get up to a higher level if it doesn't take so long to get there.

 

TLDR: The time and effort investment for getting up to speed in terms of a base, high quality weapons/ loot, and character stats is currently too long and too grindy for mass appeal PvP.

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I agree with Bloom's posts 1000%.

 

I'm certain that the five other regulars that I know of would agree as well.

 

I completely disagree Roland. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. The current playing field gives you a force multiplier of like 20, per Gazz's numbers. It shouldn't be 0 (a level playing field) for this game. It also shouldn't be 20 at max tiers vs lvl 1 either. If you were to keep the current skills & perks, then the force multiplier of a maxxed out player should probably be on the order of 5-10. Really though, it just takes experimentation and playtesting to find the sweetspot. The force multiplier is only a competitive advantage in open dueling though. There is a variety of weapons that need to be taken into consideration. There is also time-to-kill (lethality of weapons versus health pool) for each weapon type that should be accounted for. For example, it can be dialed in to provide noobies/stealthers an award for taking on a high level and/or geared player. Make it so that there is risk again. As of right now, the juice is never even close to being worth the squeeze unless you're high enough level to engage a maxxed out player.

 

For example, I personally loved the fact that a well placed crossbow headshot on a geared player could possibly take them out in previous alphas. If you were that level 3 guy running around on your first day on an established server, there was nothing better than looting a nice purple rifle off some cocky guy killing noobs around 0,0. Now, maybe if you're 150+ wellness or are wearing a high level iron helmet, then that well placed xbow headshot can't kill in one hit. Fair enough. Risk/reward on both ends. It's these little things that need exploration and playtesting that have been lost in the game's current incarnation.

 

I reject the notion that PVP needs to be a separate play mode. This would break apart the playerbase further than it already is. If you don't want to PVP, then play on a server with a PVE ruleset. I think there is plenty of room to mathematically adjust certain skill/damage/health/armor modifiers/zombie damage/zombie health to calibrate a rewarding PVE and balanced PVP experience in the same realm.

 

Ultimately, each skill that rewards % armor, health, damage, and damage redux need to be ranked for effectiveness in a PVE environment and then for a PVP environment. Gazz already did the force multiplier calc for most of this already. It really just boils down that calculation to get this right, and a lot of problems people have with dueling disappear.

 

I wouldn't change a thing for mining/mining progression skills/perks other than chop off the bottom 150 levels of the scale. The effectiveness at the bottom is too low. Do people really find it rewarding that it takes 20 hits to remove one layer off a surface stone? Then you level a little bit and it takes 14 hits. Won't 12 hits as a starting still be okay?

 

As an aside, the tools do need to be dialed in a little better for durability pools/block damage/reward for resources required in order to reflect the material and time value of obtaining and running an auger>steel>iron>stone. I trust that legendary items will be added that are going to allow for 1-block hitting again. That was really what made steel worth it over iron in previous alphas. Need to find some other carryover point or bonus to reinforce that difference at each tool type imo. Some games do it with block debuffs against tool types. For example, stone tools can't really mine metal worth a crap. Or iron will dull more quickly on metal than steel. Things like that provide incentive for the time investment in progressing through the game.

 

But back to PVP. Sound is the supreme item that needs repairing. This does not affect PVE in the slightest either. It needs to be adjusted for each audio source to make PVP happen again. Sometime in A14 they "fixed" the sound, which meant you couldn't hear augers from 7k away anymore. Fair enough, I agree. That was probably excessive. In doing that, they also extremely shortened the sound travel distance for gunshots, tool impacts, minibikes, footsteps (regardless of running or walking), beating on things, loot sounds, farting, etc. This got nerfed so far that you often can't hear someone taking a metal door down with a pickaxe on a building just 1 city block away! As a result, the pvp experience suffered because sound was what enabled people to track down and find each other. This was rewarding. It added an element of realism. It allowed for bullies. There were risks to going out and looting stuff in a town that you knew was occupied, because it meant making noise. Making noise meant possibly alerting other survivors to your presence. You had to be on guard. Some people knew the risks, and set off to live in the boonies until they could protect themselves in a fight. Some people took the risk and loot the stores to gain the advantage. Strategies evolved around your exposure level. Now that no one can hear you unless they are standing next to you, this element has been completely neutered and the low kill counts on PVP-prevalent servers are evidence of it. Many sounds need to be dialed back up some, if possible. Gunshots, minibikes, power tools, metal tools on metal objects should be audible for say 1-to-2k. Right now they carry about 250-300m. The sound you make opening a cupboard should carry about 150m, like it does currently. Running footsteps should be audible from 500m, and maybe walking footsteps 250m. When the sound range got reduced so far, the world got a whole lot bigger.

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With regards to griefing. Land claim blocks are 10 steel. That is dirt cheap. If your base is getting demolished after they take out your claim, shame on you for only having one or two claims. Or maybe that they were visible or poorly supported.

 

Now I do sympathize for the noobs out there on the raiding front. It's completely discouraging (and heartbreaking the first time) to get all your loot stolen or your base wiped out after you dump a weekend into a game and log back in to find it all gone. It takes persistence that some players just can't stomach with multiple failures to figure out how to implement base designs that effectively counter other players. I think this is something that can be improved on with education though. I think the large open world leads new players into a false sense of security. The crafting, mining, and scavenging attract a lot of players to the game that are not historically "into" pvp. Which leads to a lot of raging when they discover the harsh reality that there is more to worry about than just zombies. But maybe we can use the quest system or tool tip messaging to educate players on smarter tactics for survival from players in the same way they have been devised to get players familiar with self-survival basics? Or at least alert them to the dangers of survival.

 

I'm just throwing out ideas, but maybe stuff like this could be included...

 

Quest 1 - (to quote Bloom) - "Don't put all your eggs in one basket" Tool tips that informs the player of being raided online/offline. Other survivors will steal from you if they get the chance. Play this narrative into the lore of the game!

Quest 2 - "Hide your stash" Maybe this is just a series of tool tips like "hide your stash under walls, behind cupboards, in grandma's attic...."

Quest 3 - "Stay off the beaten path" Make it simple. Inform players that you can be found and raided. Try to hide your base or devise a simple test that can be implemented within the current game framework for concealing a container or door.

Quest 4 - "Beware of strangers" Spawns a very powerful bandit that comes after you. This is where noobs learn about bag drop :)

Quest 5 - "♥♥♥♥ and Get" Create a quest to raid a grocery store and have it spawn zombies around you in doing so.

Quest 6 - "We need a bigger boat" You have to make concrete blocks or vault doors to pass this test.

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Well you must not be completely disagreeing with me because I mostly said what you did but in a more general way. Whether the progression is made faster or we start people at a higher point in the current progression the effect is that people get up to speed faster which was my point. I like your thoughts on the how.

 

Whether it should or should not be a separate mode is immaterial. It will be. There isn't much point debating that issue here. Even your suggestion of lopping off the bottom portion of progression and starting higher is not going to sit well with most PvE players and that is just one simple issue. We already have PvP servers and PvE servers and if PvP servers start using the PvP mode then I don't see any further fracturing of the player base.

 

Really what needs to be in place are options so that servers that do want 100% level playing field can adjust how much XP is earned and where players start and end with skills and perks etc. That way it can be anything from zero penalty for dying to losing 100 hours of grinding and building for dying or anything in between.

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King of the Hill variant:

 

- a colored pole/flag is appearing somewhere randomly on the map. Players are told via a marker on the compass where to head to.

 

Any player touching the pole is claiming it.

 

The winning player has to claim the pole long enough to win the round/game. He can build a base, and so on.

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@Bloom: I really wonder whether most PvPers really want what you do in regards to progression and an unequal playing field. In theory someone might say they would like the challenge of starting on a server that is already at day 100 with most others already well established but in reality people often quit a server and never return if they die enough to reduce their wellness to 70. I think you are at the hard-core end of the spectrum in this regard.

 

I think that there can be progression and grind to get mats but that they shouldn't be as long term and grindy as they are in the current vanilla game. Getting more resources for harvesting, and shortening the progression from low to max would be good IMO. Right now we have a lot of players reporting that they grind exclusively to get their skills up before they start engaging other players. Making it a faster journey to the point that typical players like to start actually PvPing would make the early game less of a chore before the "real playing" begins. Also new spawns could have a better chance of staying off the radar until they get up to a higher level if it doesn't take so long to get there.

 

TLDR: The time and effort investment for getting up to speed in terms of a base, high quality weapons/ loot, and character stats is currently too long and too grindy for mass appeal PvP.

 

As someone who plays H1Z1, Conan, Rust and Ark and reads all of their reddits i can say one thing for sure. Most general PVP players (remember i said general not hardcore) HATE progression and leveling. They want to be able to log onto a server, go searching and be on fairly equal ground to those already living on the server. There is already a group of players who want leveling removed from Conan and thats a week or so old.

 

I agree 100 percent with what Roland said. His suggestions reflect what the general thoughts of an average PVP player want. Question is do you want to appeal to a mass PVP audience or to a hardcore niche one.

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Gazz -

 

Offline claim modifiers do have value and should be operable. It enables server owners to provide a higher degree of configuration that provides comfort to different playstyles and provides relief for players that are going to be offline for longer periods. Most people don't realize that they don't work... If you go through the server listing, you'll find that online/offline multipliers are rarely the same value. And if they are the same value, I would wager that the owner knows they don't work in more cases than they intentionally wanted them to be the same.

 

Others have commented on this, but raiding someone while they are online is fricking hard. I mean it can be next to impossible on a decent base. Since the repair rate is so high that you simply have to exhaust the defenders supplies to get in. I like the idea that server owners can specify a lower mux for online defenders. It allows for this to be optimized into a way that makes it more viable to raid someone while online.

 

By enabling the online/offline multipliers it also allows pve-centric characters to have a higher sense of security, which is fair in it's own right. Many servers would like to opt for something like 8x online/64x offline. I believe the intent is for server owners to be able to build more diversified communities of different types of players.

 

As it stands now, since the multipliers don't work, there is no advantage to raiding someone while they are online. It's far safer to wait until they log off. It's going to take you the amount of time, so why not...? If the multipliers actually worked, servers could be configured in a way that reduces that prevalence of players getting wiped out while they are offline.

 

There are a couple of exploitable aspects of online/offline multipliers that would need to be refined to implement this well though (after they get the darn things to work in the first place). Joint ownership affecting claim strength, ability to remove/add friends and affect claim strengths, combat logging-type situations where you could log out during a raid to protect your base. They're not difficult problems to solve. And I'm sure there are more that I'm not thinking of. But these kinks would need to be worked out.

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King of the Hill variant:

 

- a colored pole/flag is appearing somewhere randomly on the map. Players are told via a marker on the compass where to head to.

 

Any player touching the pole is claiming it.

 

The winning player has to claim the pole long enough to win the round/game. He can build a base, and so on.

 

I love any aspect of the game that introduces a reason for players to converge and fight.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

As someone who plays H1Z1, Conan, Rust and Ark and reads all of their reddits i can say one thing for sure. Most general PVP players (remember i said general not hardcore) HATE progression and leveling. They want to be able to log onto a server, go searching and be on fairly equal ground to those already living on the server. There is already a group of players who want leveling removed from Conan and thats a week or so old.

 

I agree 100 percent with what Roland said. His suggestions reflect what the general thoughts of an average PVP player want. Question is do you want to appeal to a mass PVP audience or to a hardcore niche one.

 

"Hardcore niche one". I don't want a Rust clone. And I can assure you after reading these forums for the last two years, neither do the devs. I want a voxel based, crafting, building, survival multiplayer that rewards time invested in a logical amounts that don't upset the game balance too much.

 

I kind of disagree with your assessment though. I don't think pvp'ers that have stuck around on 7days want a level playing field. The game mechanics, movement, and netcode are too poor to be a great pvp game. I view pvp players that play shoot-em-ups like CS Go differently than players that play this game, Ark & Rust. The latter audience are more akin to offshoots from MMORPG's than they are round based blood bath games. Granted I've played the former competitively for years, and I'm not knocking it, but I don't want to see 7dtd turn into that. (Madmole - Stop getting ideas of copying H1Z1's king of the Hill).

Edited by Roland
You didn't think I would let that stand did you.... (see edit history)
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Quick point here on your 'static' spawn points, I have never, in the ridiculous playtime I have, ever spawned into a player made cage or know anyone who has. I did once appear on a couple of spikes, once.

Must have been polite players only on your servers. Maybe servers from england? ;)

The first thing I do on a PvP server is to mine the spawn points.

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