"The PvP Update"

[Roland]

It happens to me a lot.

 

I'd call it mad genius but I think it's actually functional retardation.

 

^^In that case the short bus is that way

<<

[Poojam]

I think this is a preference thing. I will say that upon further reflection and reading I agree that a somewhat shallower vertical progression would probably be okay but I also think that there will be plenty of people who will not look at two weeks of hiding and building up before emerging to compete as something that will hold their interest. I have no idea which type of player is the majority but like Jax said you get quite a lot of PvP players across several games crying out for a more level playing field and doing away with features that create such huge margins in relative player power.

 

Now I get that 7 Days to Die PvP doesn't have to be like the rest and this game can have its own brand of PvP that bucks the norm and maintains a strong player progression and if I am wrong that would be a cool distinction to have and our servers will be robust with 1000s of players. But if I'm not wrong then 7 Days to Die PvP will just be a niche experience that only caters to a small segment of all PvP players and our PvP community will stay small.

If they are hiding for two weeks before emerging to compete, they are playing a very conservative, boring, or perhaps a PVE-build-focused strategy. It's a common strategy for first timers on a PVP server and is somewhat more effective than it ought to be simply because of the steepness of the force multiplier. Which is a topic I think we have exhausted and can be addressed easily enough by Gazz's massaging. But I argue that is not a playstyle that a lot of experienced PVP players do. It's what a lot of PVE minded players do, and a prevalence of the current audience do because that's the type of players that has stuck around and still plays the game. Many true PVP players stock up on a bit of food/water, then gather a stack of arrows and set off hunting these types of players to kill and steal their mats they've been harvesting on Day 2. There just aren't very many of us left.

 

The reason 7DTD doesn't have a healthy PVP population is simply because of a few of the dev's and forum moderators past attitudes and blatant disregard (I do insist this is putting it mildly) towards maintaining a healthy multiplayer game environment over the alphas for the last 2 years. The PVPers were the first ones to be vocal about declines in stability, but it affected large cap PVE players the same. I'm not looking to dredge up a lot of old dirty laundry, but you even admit it in the title of this thread. "Eventually" they will come around to PVP. I love your optimism, but I'm not easily convinced. I'm engaging in this thread because I would like to see that happen. More importantly, I would like it done in intelligent ways that maintain the integrity and unique spark of the game. But I don't know where a lot of these new ideas and "problems" derived from (a separate PVP mode, invulnerable claims, perk claims, protecting griefers etc). Many of these problems aren't problems to begin with that have been vocalized by PVP players. Some of them appear to me as simple as trying to implement a system that makes players happy that got beat on a PVP server. Most have quite effective solutions currently supported in the game to counter. It just takes perseverence and learning-through-playing on a PVP server to learn how to survive. That lesson is far more lengthy and rewarding than learning how to survive against zombies in 7 days.

 

With regards to the PVP population, a few of us have stuck it out. It's sporadic at best though. But I've known hundreds of players, modders, server owners, and regular teammates and friends that quit for an array of reasons that ultimately boiled down to the fact that Madmole does not want a PVP game. He has stated it in no uncertain terms many times. A lot of them left when the switch to U5 came about, and it nuked the viability of servers with more than 8-10 people on them. When confronted with this evidence, the line was "we do not care about supporting multiplayer servers. this is a single player/coop game., go play rust". The forums exploded around supporting this sentiment, and people that wanted to play the game in a PVP way got the message. They left. Most of them for good.

 

As a couple posters in this thread have pointed out. It's not the land claims or experience curve that drive away PVP players. Heck, look at just about any MMORPG. You want to talk about grind. Look at WOW or EVE online... it takes forever to level and the risks can be devastating. As in thousands of real life dollars and hundreds of hours devastating. They have millions of players though. But they do have a perfectly stable game environment that protects players assets from needless waste (hacking/exploiting).

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

In my opinion, the following are what drives away PVP players from this game and should be TFP's primary focus on any "PVP Update". In order of relative importance.

 

#1 - Develop support for high population servers. 30+ is an abolute minimum. 50 is warmer. 100 is awesome. This has two aspects of it which are critical to building a playerbase of "1000's", regardless of whether it is PVE or PVP. These two aspects are attracting an audience to play a multiplayer game and also enabling the ability for people to adequately host sufficient large cap servers. This game world is pretty big, even at 10k limits. You can play for days and sometimes weeks irl without coming across another player on a 20 man server. On the 2nd aspect, the game's stability seems to be consistently getting better in the last year, but I'm not convinced that's for any pvp-minded reasons. I feel like it's more of a convenient side-effect of improving the game's code.

 

For example. It is uncommon but it's not impossible to get up to around a 30-man server and maintain stability for 1000's of days. BUT - it takes a hell of a good server, and a great server manager program to keep them afloat (regular scheduled restarts, backups, active admins to remove glitched bikes/suspended terrain, chunk restorations for corruption). I know the owners of several of the long-running large cap servers and have donated $ to several of them to keep them running. These guys are true lovers of the game and spend a lot of money to do this. Teammates and I have even rented our own 30-man server. It costs about $120/month to get a good enough box to host a 30-man, reliable server. That is simply cost prohibitive and the ultimate reason why no matter what you do to any of this game, PVP will not flourish until you can support enough people to play such that you can find each other in a persistent world environment.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

#2 - The need to develop better admin tools so that owners & mods can identify and deal with the hacking/exploiting problems themselves. I'm convinced the game and server code can't eliminate hacking with the way it is currently setup and still provide the desired, moddable nature. And I'm not proposing to change that necessarily. But I think it's getting time to address this by building better server managment and admin tracking tools now that the core framework is largely in place (or seems to be). Currently, most server owners use 3rd party server managers to achieve stability and control who plays on their servers. There are a multitude of things they all do, and some implement systems that others don't have. The critical things they provide are supporting; region blocking, ping limits, inventory flagging with auto-banning, and adequately support entity removal (for all those bugged minibikes). Server owners that have been around the block know they must block China. The consequence is they will literally get 3-4 hackers per day that will teleport around and destroy/kill everything. It's just a cultural thing, but it has to be done. These players login and destroy PVP and PVE servers alike for the lulls. Some owners have developed techniques such as invulnerable claims, area zoning rulesets, and other systems to try and mitigate it. Some of the people that are asking for these things in the forums are doing so because they are not getting beat fair & square in a PVP server, but they have actually suffered from the hackers.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

#3 - Reduce the number of exploits, trivial annoyances and needless grind. You can place minibike frames on claimed areas and scale people's walls! Projectile explosives do excessive block damage for their cost. I shouldn't have to explain that the dupes cheat the system in order to beat your competitors. Honest players face real consequences when they die and have to go farming for metal to make a new set of armor or spend 3 days looking for another decent sniper rifle. The grunts/sighs/broken legs/belly aches/temperature system are the low hanging fruit here for annoyances. What do these really add, honestly? Did someone wake up one day and say "ya know what would be fun? when I get warm in-game, I should suffer until I take off my coat". We should be setting our sights higher here. Build toggles for these into that server manager that doesn't exist yet.

 

This turned into way too long of a post. But my point is the vast majority of players want to play. Fewer will launch their own server. Most of those will do it from their own PC/home connection and can't support more than a few people. And an extremely low # will shell out $120/month for a dedicated server, learn to mod the game into something that supports large cap/PVP servers, and spend all of their free time on nights and weekends keeping the thing running. TFP have to improve these things, reduce the load, reduce exploiting, and make hosting a server easier in order to get the 1000's of PVP'ers into the game.

Edited February 17, 2017 by Poojam (see edit history)

[Gazz]

But I don't know where a lot of these new ideas and "problems" derived from (a separate PVP mode, invulnerable claims, perk claims, protecting griefers etc). Many of these problems aren't problems to begin with that have been vocalized by PVP players.

Very likely from "the type of players that has stuck around and still plays the game". =)

 

You know that the game has a large PVE following, right? How do you get them interested in PVP at all when all they hear are horror stories about what is clearly "griefing" in their world?

You may consider a lot of those issues "training wheels" but there is a reason why training wheels exist.

The "hardcore PVP player" can not be the only consideration when thinking about PVE/PVP changes. You're not that special.

 

And when some people blow a gasket hearing about "invulnerable claim stones" - they should consider who is saying these things.

Developers often look at edge cases first because when you get those working, the middle ground balancing pretty much falls into place.

 

Also, are invulnerable claim stones and "PVE + PVP on the same server" such a horrible idea?

If you want to promote PVP then you have to allow players to "just dip their toe in" without asking them to completely go out of their comfort zone.

Sure, that leads to other well-known forms of griefing like an "invulnerable" PVE player MMO-training a PVP player. But you're so hardcore, what's the worst that could happen? =P

Singular claim stones open up sooooo many possibilities. Imagine a "PVP zone" extending around your PVP base.

Every PVE player who enters becomes a target after x seconds. You could actually have PVE players parttake in "raids"!

(they may still not be able to attack blocks because that would be pretty one-sided =)

Perfectly doable with "singular but more powerful claim stones". When I say more powerful I'm not talking about the block durability modifier. That's just one number.

[Guppycur]

Depending on how serious tfp is in making a viable and different experience for PvP, long term sustainability as poojam suggests has to be taken into consideration.

 

If PvP is just going to be a slight variant from pve, then ignore him.

 

If PvP is going to be done right, then consider him.

 

I was a competitive fps player back in my day. I don't PvP 7days because it sucks for it.

[Poojam]

Very likely from "the type of players that has stuck around and still plays the game". =)

 

You know that the game has a large PVE following, right? How do you get them interested in PVP at all when all they hear are horror stories about what is clearly "griefing" in their world?

You may consider a lot of those issues "training wheels" but there is a reason why training wheels exist.

The "hardcore PVP player" can not be the only consideration when thinking about PVE/PVP changes. You're not that special.

 

And when some people blow a gasket hearing about "invulnerable claim stones" - they should consider who is saying these things.

Developers often look at edge cases first because when you get those working, the middle ground balancing pretty much falls into place.

 

Also, are invulnerable claim stones and "PVE + PVP on the same server" such a horrible idea?

If you want to promote PVP then you have to allow players to "just dip their toe in" without asking them to completely go out of their comfort zone.

Sure, that leads to other well-known forms of griefing like an "invulnerable" PVE player MMO-training a PVP player. But you're so hardcore, what's the worst that could happen? =P

Singular claim stones open up sooooo many possibilities. Imagine a "PVP zone" extending around your PVP base.

Every PVE player who enters becomes a target after x seconds. You could actually have PVE players parttake in "raids"!

(they may still not be able to attack blocks because that would be pretty one-sided =)

Perfectly doable with "singular but more powerful claim stones". When I say more powerful I'm not talking about the block durability modifier. That's just one number.

 

Oh, I know the audience. I guess I thought this thread represented an opportunity to perhaps expand that pool to re-attract "PVP" players to the game. Something about Roland's posts led me to believe that. I and others have given our reasons why singular claims +/- invulnerability is a terrible idea. I simply fail to see the attraction. All I see are pros/cons and the cons far outweigh the pros. More importantly, I see a lot of exploits and hacks that exacerbate the problem into what it is currently perceived. Instead of fixing those outstanding issues, you propose to design a system around it without addressing the underlying issues and then doing an evaluation before proposing large changes.

 

Just to be clear, this is not a "PVP Update" if the purpose is simply to neuter it into something more palatable for PVE players to stomach. The problem is education in this regard. If players on a raiding server knew the risks, then they play and get bent over backwards, they shouldn't be devastated. Play it or don't. There are tons of combinations of claim strengths, claim size, and partial area safe zoning via mods that already give players the ability to choose a ruleset that meets these needs. I've tossed out ideas that comport within the lore & current quest system design that can greatly improve these problems, but I feel like that was ignored.

 

Singular claims are awful for how that will be a great restriction to base creation. Invulnerable claims, if they are to be implemented, need to be optional. (They are useless mind you, people will still raid their crap). Implementing both would simply be just another huge degradation/nail in the coffin for anyone that enjoys raiding.

[Roland]

Oh, I know the audience. I guess I thought this thread represented an opportunity to perhaps expand that pool to re-attract "PVP" players to the game. Something about Roland's posts led me to believe that. I and others have given our reasons why singular claims +/- invulnerability is a terrible idea. I simply fail to see the attraction. All I see are pros/cons and the cons far outweigh the pros. More importantly, I see a lot of exploits and hacks that exacerbate the problem into what it is currently perceived. Instead of fixing those outstanding issues, you propose to design a system around it without addressing the underlying issues and then doing an evaluation before proposing large changes.

 

Just to be clear, this is not a "PVP Update" if the purpose is simply to neuter it into something more palatable for PVE players to stomach. The problem is education in this regard. If players on a raiding server knew the risks, then they play and get bent over backwards, they shouldn't be devastated. Play it or don't. There are tons of combinations of claim strengths, claim size, and partial area safe zoning via mods that already give players the ability to choose a ruleset that meets these needs. I've tossed out ideas that comport within the lore & current quest system design that can greatly improve these problems, but I feel like that was ignored.

 

Singular claims are awful for how that will be a great restriction to base creation. Invulnerable claims, if they are to be implemented, need to be optional. (They are useless mind you, people will still raid their crap). Implementing both would simply be just another huge degradation/nail in the coffin for anyone that enjoys raiding.

 

I can see the benefits of having settings that would allow PvE players to "get into" PvP on terms that would be more appealing to them. It certainly would be smart from a business standpoint for TFP to cater to that. On the other hand, I see what you are saying and I believe that I am ignorant of what truly PvP players want the more I read what you and Bloom have to say. I also think that your big three points above are exactly right for what needs to happen on a systemic level. Changing options is not enough. I see that. 30+ server support, admin tools, and PvP killing glitches and exploits definitely need to be high priority targets from the developers.

 

As far as options I think the key is to have as many as we can think of so that the game can easily be configured to settings that make veteran PvPers smile as well as make PvP enticing to the rest.

[legionpete]

Since TFP develop in such a way that features can be turned off/on, claim blocks being one of them, then it should be a non-issue for the most part. I say, figure out what hard core gamers are looking for, then add in the special claim blocks that provide a set of benefits or whatever that can be turned on or off. I'm not so sure whats wrong with that concept?

 

If there is an issue with that, then it would have to be that more people would probably play pvp on servers that provide more protection than on the hard core servers, thus reducing the hard core pvp servers overall population.

 

I personally don't care for hardcore pvp servers. So I'm one who'd only play on pvp servers where a good community is established.

[Maharin]

Also, are invulnerable claim stones and "PVE + PVP on the same server" such a horrible idea?

If you want to promote PVP then you have to allow players to "just dip their toe in" without asking them to completely go out of their comfort zone.

 

I think it's worth noting that not all PvP is "everyone else is an enemy". Team PvP can be a lot of fun, especially if teams are large (like the realms in DAoC, for instance). Mixing PvP with PvE will make PvP in 7DTD more survival-ish as well (the zombies act as a universal enemy). That's a niche worth investigating.

[legionpete]

I think it's worth noting that not all PvP is "everyone else is an enemy". Team PvP can be a lot of fun, especially if teams are large (like the realms in DAoC, for instance). Mixing PvP with PvE will make PvP in 7DTD more survival-ish as well (the zombies act as a universal enemy). That's a niche worth investigating.

This is the kind of pvp I like most. Its the reason I enjoy multiplayer. When I hosted a Rust server, we had a group of 8. We did raids in small groups but, if we had a group who was trashing buildings with salt the earth tactics, we'd do a full group raid. My same group also played on another server where we got raided by the alpha team, who we picked a fight with. It was a one sided battle, but it was a blast and we knew we had it coming. That being said, most Rust servers tended to lead to the dark side where you were always getting raided, unless you were so far out of town nothing could be looted or killed and took all day just to get back on to the map. (old rust). At that point, it was just pointless to play and no fun.

[Maharin]

This is the kind of pvp I like most. Its the reason I enjoy multiplayer. When I hosted a Rust server, we had a group of 8. We did raids in small groups but, if we had a group who was trashing buildings with salt the earth tactics, we'd do a full group raid. My same group also played on another server where we got raided by the alpha team, who we picked a fight with. It was a one sided battle, but it was a blast and we knew we had it coming. That being said, most Rust servers tended to lead to the dark side where you were always getting raided, unless you were so far out of town nothing could be looted or killed and took all day just to get back on to the map. (old rust). At that point, it was just pointless to play and no fun.

 

I have Rust, just haven't gotten into it enough yet. I think I'm waiting for them add a single player option so I can at least get a feel for the mechanics of the game before throwing myself to the wolves.

[7daysguy]

There are some PvP servers that run very high claim multipliers on purpose, such that raiding is not really an option. Some people like to play a game where they can kill players and steal their loot, but still like having a safe zone at their home base. Personally I like player killing and base raiding. I don't mind the high stakes game play because I've learned lots of little tricks to keep my loot safe, but it's going to be too much for the casual player. I've seen many players quit after their base is gutted, which is why I think a "dip-your-toe-in" approach to PvP is the right approach. Having different areas in the same map with different levels of safety might be ideal, it's worked for Eve. I would like to see more PvE players graduate to PvP, but that's not going to work if all you do is throw them to the wolves. That will just discourage them from the game or drive them to pure PvE servers.

[Poojam]

There are some PvP servers that run very high claim multipliers on purpose, such that raiding is not really an option. Some people like to play a game where they can kill players and steal their loot, but still like having a safe zone at their home base. Personally I like player killing and base raiding. I don't mind the high stakes game play because I've learned lots of little tricks to keep my loot safe, but it's going to be too much for the casual player. I've seen many players quit after their base is gutted, which is why I think a "dip-your-toe-in" approach to PvP is the right approach. Having different areas in the same map with different levels of safety might be ideal, it's worked for Eve. I would like to see more PvE players graduate to PvP, but that's not going to work if all you do is throw them to the wolves. That will just discourage them from the game or drive them to pure PvE servers.

 

Then they should play on servers with a high claim multiplier.

 

And/or

 

TFP should fix the offline claim multiplier so that it actually works, which would provide a middle ground that is currently absent. Flip through the server listings and you'll notice they are usually different values. I think that most people are not aware that it doesn't function.

[7daysguy]

Then they should play on servers with a high claim multiplier.

 

And/or

 

TFP should fix the offline claim multiplier so that it actually works, which would provide a middle ground that is currently absent. Flip through the server listings and you'll notice they are usually different values. I think that most people are not aware that it doesn't function.

 

That divides the player base. I would like to see more players interacting on one server, and being able to try different play styles without having to start on a new server.

 

The online/offline claim multiplier is a nifty idea, but even when it worked you would get players logging out (with their loot) as soon as someone threatened their base. I think the game would have to change a lot to be a tower defense game against other players.

 

(PS claim decay doesn't work either)

[Poojam]

That divides the player base. I would like to see more players interacting on one server, and being able to try different play styles without having to start on a new server.

 

The online/offline claim multiplier is a nifty idea, but even when it worked you would get players logging out (with their loot) as soon as someone threatened their base. I think the game would have to change a lot to be a tower defense game against other players.

 

(PS claim decay doesn't work either)

 

Divides the players no more than they already are. They were talking about a separate pvp only mode, like h1z1's king of the hill. Which is basically a different stand alone game.

 

There are multiple problems with offline multipliers. That is the most obvious. You also have to add logic for friends list now. Just add a 60 minute timer to it really though and problem is solved for the most part.

[Guppycur]

@poo

 

What's the argument FOR having lcbs in a PvP game?

[Poojam]

@poo

 

What's the argument FOR having lcbs in a PvP game?

 

I'm sure there are many.

 

I believe they enable a very simple server-settings variable to adjust scalability of block durability. This provides online and offline security, while also enabling diversity of game types. Players can dial in their protection settings to suit their preferences. This is a game built around progression, gathering resources, crafting, killing, stealing, scavenging, and defending against other survivors and zombies. That's a very large investment in time to do most of those things well. LCB's provide the ability to protect that investment.

 

LCB's also allows prefabs to be built with the same materials as bases without having to introduce base specific blocks.

[7daysguy]

More thoughts on leveled loot

 

Leveled loot probably doesn't need to go away altogether, but like other player progress there should be less vertical progression. When you pull a pistol out of a crate, if it normally has a 5% chance to spawn a purple drop, then maybe with leveled loot it could be a 10%. People who play more will still have better weapons just because they will be rolling the dice more times. I don't think there should be any major barriers for new players getting good gear, other than it being rare in general.

 

With quality joe and scavenging right now, the difference in loot between a high level and low level character is crazy. Even if a high level character has a double % chance of finding better gear that would be huge, would be worth the investment. Since the POI spawns are supposed to be based on player levels now, I don't know if that means stronger zombies or just more zombies, but if it's stronger zombies then that already functions as a way to feed high level characters better loot, assuming the loot tables are better on those tougher enemies.

[TehRoach]

PvP VS Tower Defence

 

I have a few spare bucks to throw around so I might as well throw in my 2c

 

IMHO PvP should not be a priority for 7D2D.

 

PvP is the games weak point yes!

But this is overshadowed by all its other stronger and more desirable characteristics.

 

to me the P's in PvP is the important part Player(s) vs Player(s)

I believe that this is a very important point to be made.

 

In the majority of PvP games all players are online for the duration of the game instance (barring dropouts, rage quits etc.)

7D2D is a very different animal in this regard.

-Barring Private Servers, No one player is online all the time that the server is running.

-There is not intermission between potential battles.

-Maps are dynamic; often with alot of hard work and time, added by the player base.

-Voxals while awesome, have definate drawbacks to offline base defence.

Offline raidings are actually a sort of tower defense mode were you play on the attacking side. Thats not PvP. Pvp requires players in oposing forces fighting each other. Since any defense will always be beaten with the use of the proper force

As light describes, most raidings will take place while the majority of players are offline, so why concentrate on the actual PvP side of the game when it is only a minority part.

 

The game was suppose to have a tower defence aspect to it, and I believe that tower defence mechanics could also be used to solve most PvP problems.

 

going the turrets/traps or npc route is pointless.

However I would have to dissagree with this statement.

There is a difference between something that is hard and something that is pointless!

 

Yes preempting every possible entry point in a voxal environment is mind staggeringly endless, but setting up traps and kill points to let NPC's and online alies man while you are away (Sleeping/Working/Living in RL etc.) could be quite fun, especially if something like HAL's editor was implemented into vanilla.

 

For offline griefing / base raiding I still think my editor has the best system which is to allow players to save the area in their landclaims and have periodic cooldown (say 6 hours or something configurable in the XML) for restoring it.

However I would go to the extreme of also restoring all/most stolen items to remove the penalty for having a life outside of the game.

 

Instead implement some sort of raiding score system,

Not only would the raiders be rewarded with the loot they stole but they would also score points against the group that they raided.

 

Then once the offline player came back online their base could be restored to its former glory and they would be advised that their clan had losed x number of points to the raid by y clan.

[legionpete]

Instead implement some sort of raiding score system,

Not only would the raiders be rewarded with the loot they stole but they would also score points against the group that they raided.

 

Then once the offline player came back online their base could be restored to its former glory and they would be advised that their clan had losed x number of points to the raid by y clan.

This has the potential to introduce an accepted form of duping where 2 allied factions simply raid each other in order to increase their stock piles.

 

I have suggested having a single faction claim block where you invest duke coins into it to purchase perks. Those perks give faction members bonuses maybe even special skills. Players purchase those upgrades for their faction from a trader joel. Faction claims don't get destroyed but become temporarily indestructible once their dropped to zero. The coins used to purchase the upgrades are what is awarded to the raiding team. Not all, but a set percentage. The raided party may lose a few perks due to the loss and the raiding party can use the money to purchase perks.

 

For items the player is carrying, allow them to insure those items at a cost. Anything not insured can be looted and insured items reward the duke coins it cost to ensure those items. Players must return to trader joel to retrieve their insured items.

 

And I'd also allow players to rent storage crates from trader Joel so they can store items they may need later or as backup so that all their items won't be stolen from them. The more items trader Joel stores, the more duke coins it cost. A perk of the faction block could even be access to trader joel chest.

[7daysguy]

For items the player is carrying, allow them to insure those items at a cost. Anything not insured can be looted and insured items reward the duke coins it cost to ensure those items. Players must return to trader joel to retrieve their insured items.

 

Interesting idea, so if someone killed you and stole your loot, they would only get the coin value that you have paid to insure that loot? That would work to prevent players farming the insurance system, but introduces some discontinuity where you don't actually get the item that character was carrying.

 

Totally with you about renting storage lockers at Traitor Joels. Though it should probably be a flat rate for a container of a certain size.

[Poojam]

I have a few spare bucks to throw around so I might as well throw in my 2c

 

As light describes, most raidings will take place while the majority of players are offline, so why concentrate on the actual PvP side of the game when it is only a minority part.

....

However I would go to the extreme of also restoring all/most stolen items to remove the penalty for having a life outside of the game.

 

Instead implement some sort of raiding score system,

Not only would the raiders be rewarded with the loot they stole but they would also score points against the group that they raided.

 

Then once the offline player came back online their base could be restored to its former glory and they would be advised that their clan had losed x number of points to the raid by y clan.

 

Most raids occur while players are offline because there is only a huge additional cost to doing it while the defenders are online. That is you are defending against someone that is spawning in the base trying to kill you. Where you are most likely bedrolled a ways away. The online/offline claim modifiers don't work. If they did, then servers could be configured such that there was a reason to conduct an online raid. For example, the online claim modifier would be 8x and the offline 64x. Well... maybe it's worth the risk to battle while breaking in because it will take you 8x longer to raid through that base while they are offline.

 

Repairing blocks are also much faster than damaging a block at just about any multiplier. So you can literally be hitting a door for 10 minutes, then the guy walk by and repair it 2x and erase all of that. Why subject yourself to such pointlessness?

 

A hokey scoreboard is simply that. It is meaningless. There is not much point in raiding someone if they get to keep their stuff. Stealing from other players rewards you with their resources and disadvantages other survivors because they are a weaker potential enemy.

 

Where will be the incentive to build a good base if all your stuff gets returned to you? What is the point? This shouldn't be little league, where everyone gets a medal.

[Poojam]

I can see the benefits of having settings that would allow PvE players to "get into" PvP on terms that would be more appealing to them. It certainly would be smart from a business standpoint for TFP to cater to that. On the other hand, I see what you are saying and I believe that I am ignorant of what truly PvP players want the more I read what you and Bloom have to say. I also think that your big three points above are exactly right for what needs to happen on a systemic level. Changing options is not enough. I see that. 30+ server support, admin tools, and PvP killing glitches and exploits definitely need to be high priority targets from the developers.

 

As far as options I think the key is to have as many as we can think of so that the game can easily be configured to settings that make veteran PvPers smile as well as make PvP enticing to the rest.

 

I'm glad you are supportive of those recommendations. We need you to relay this stuff to TFP and make the case for why it is important.

 

Wanted to post a little snipit of a situation of what I just ran into recently. I've seen Madmole claim in the past that the duping only hurts those players themselves. Well... not exactly.

 

I've been playing on a somewhat poorly adminned server for a few weeks. The server runs fine. It's just the owner doesn't play much and the mods aren't very active in trying to ban abusers. It was more heavily monitored when it was a younger server. But we're getting up into the 500+ days now. Anyways, I have run into a team of exploiters and dupers that are wrecking everyone on the server. The server pop went from averaging 25 in prime time to about 12. These guys are glitching through doors and walls via terrain or maybe minibike chassis glitches. I have caught them inside my base in sealed off rooms that were impossible to get into multiple times. They are always max wellness the next day, no matter how many times we kill them. They always have a pile of ammo, steel, steel upgrade, pile of rare resources on them. Doesn't seem like they have any concern for value of resources.

 

Decide I'm going to raid them and destroy all their resources that I can get at. They have a 25x25x30 block tall fully upgraded steel and upgraded steel base with a shallow moat and steel spikes. Perimeter claims outside the moat extend the protection zone out to about 30 blocks further. I have spent about 18 hours over the last week removing 8 perimeter claims late at night when they aren't online. Work on it a little bit each night. Doing it legitimately by mapping the claims out on the surface and carefully by entering beyond the claimed area and covering my tracks so they won't notice when they come back online. I removed the necessary, final 2 claims last night, which allowed me to frame up close enough to the base that I could easily jump in. But it's not going to be easy, because the whole base is steel and upgraded steel. I'm looking at a 3-4 hour raid in front of me to hit their loot room with a high level auger based on what I can see on the outside of the base.

 

I spend yesterday collecting mats (75 repair kits, steel, food/drink, backup pickaxe, gas etc), upgrading a good auger to higher purple quality, and prepping a forward operating base close to theirs. I'm ready.

 

I go to their base an hour ago and some other duper has exacted their own revenge on these turds while I was at work today by using hundreds of explosives to destroy all of the terrain surrounding their base. This revealed the gaps in their claims, since the explosives didn't destroy those blocks. The owners noticed this, and have now replaced the claims I removed and added another perimeter ring. All of my effort was for nothing.

 

Tell us all again how dupers only hurt dupers Madmole.

[TehRoach]

This has the potential to introduce an accepted form of duping where 2 allied factions simply raid each other in order to increase their stock piles.

Yes and maybe, this is why I added the "restoring all/most stolen items" clause.

It wouldn't take much to keep a data base of who has stolen what from who or put caps on the potential size of re-embercements.

 

A hokey scoreboard is simply that. It is meaningless.

It is only meaningless if you make it meaningless.

 

Stealing from other players rewards you with their resources and disadvantages other survivors because they are a weaker potential enemy.

There is not much point in raiding someone if they get to keep their stuff.

Let me get this straight.

You don't actually find any reward from the loot itself?

The only Reward for you is the fact that you have weakened your opponent?

 

I don't know about you,

but for me the idea of being the best at something is because you are the best, not because you are able to keep all the good competition in a cage where they can not compete!

 

being the best should be about improving yourself above your peers. (forward progression)

not just reducing your peer to below your level. (backwards progression)

 

This shouldn't be little league, where everyone gets a medal.

Sorry but this is a game, it simply is always going to be "little league".

[Clism]

As it stands for me the game is massive fun in pvp (just look at my over 3000 hours in pvp).

I really enjoy the game as it stands now.

I can only see improvements that could be made.

 

Some of the things said above, well, they're not exactly correct. Please be careful what you react to, as some folks have an interesting way of spinning things.

 

Like the post above, I've spent many hours raiding on high resistance servers. I'd say it's not for your average player who needs constant stimulus. It takes dedication, but then the person worked hard for their base, it should be hard to raid it.

 

At 24x resist we just hit a huge base with 5 people, and with good skills and tools it was wonderful, and didn't take overly long at all.

 

Also the guy above said "living underground like a rat...is this funny? Getting found by glitch only?" This is what I meant above, there are many statements that are "Spin" scattered throughout the 140 pages of statements. In this case what I mean is, finding hidden underground bases is fun, and keeping one hidden is even funner. Learning how to make the surface look natural is a bloody ART. And finding bases, finding the slightest damage from zombies digging, or seeing a screamer just standing there cause she's above the source of heat, or just sound. Figuring out where that base is, digging down until you hit a wall, figuring out the base layout by digging around, well ....it's a lot of fun. Some people I play with are just wizards at this, very smart about finding and raiding a hidden base. And I'm very good at maintaining a hidden one, and have yet to ever have one found. And getting caught, fighting, there's few other games anything close to this.

 

The glitch thing, well, there's tricks to that, too, and I mean tricks to not be found by glitch. And tricks not to create a glitch on the surface by accident.

 

I just raided a under water base the other day, and did a lot of it by myself, took 40 minutes per steel vault door. About 8 hours later I broke into the forge/loot room. I got a lot of stuff, and then two of the owners logged in. Massive fire fight. It was glorious fun. Should it take less time to steal all the stuff a team of people looted over a period of months? I do not think so.

 

As it stands i can't say enough good about the game. Hopefully TFP will make good improvements. Please don't ruin my favorite game. I could list for you all the great games ruined by listening to poor players who can't figure it out. Thanks.

[Gazz]

As it stands i can't say enough good about the game. Hopefully TFP will make good improvements. Please don't ruin my favorite game. I could list for you all the great games ruined by listening to poor players who can't figure it out. Thanks.

For the hardcore PVP player that may be fine and dandy but if TFP want to promote open world / sandbox / PVP then there needs to be a way for the somewhat more softcore to test the waters. =)

Bicycles were not ruined forever by the invention of the training wheels.

 

There are no weekly team meetings on how to best ruin the game. (these are all private meetings)