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"The PvP Update"


Roland
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Must have been polite players only on your servers. Maybe servers from england? ;)

The first thing I do on a PvP server is to mine the spawn points.

 

I'm ignorant of the backend limitations, so this may not be possible. But this sure seems like it could be addressed by introduction of a random number variable to operate on the spawn loc coordinates.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Last edited by Roland; 12 Minutes Ago at 04:04 AM. Reason: You didn't think I would let that stand did you....

 

Sometimes you have to call a spade a spade to get attention. Don't pretend you haven't noticed over the years. ;)

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I'm ignorant of the backend limitations, so this may not be possible. But this sure seems like it could be addressed by introduction of a random number variable to operate on the spawn loc coordinates.

 

Yepp, this was already suggested:

The current system of fixed spawn points leads to the problem you encountered. People will either put spikes or cages at the spawn points. The logical conclusion is to have truely random spawn points rather than a set of fixed ones.

I just wanted to emphasize that it is an important problem that needs to be fixed.

 

To me, the main problem is the high number of gamebreaking bugs that can be exploited. So I wonder if the time has come for PvP.

Edited by Pille (see edit history)
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To me, the main problem is the high number of gamebreaking bugs that can be exploited. So I wonder if the time has come for PvP.

 

I don't see a lot of gamebreaking bugs. Or maybe what you call a bug I don't think of as one. For example, I wouldn't call the spawn point camping a bug. It's just simple griefing or could be considered an exploit. The game is functioning as it's supposed to. It's just that some players have figured out that those points are unprotected and not random. ♥♥♥♥ thing to do.

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I don't see a lot of gamebreaking bugs. Or maybe what you call a bug I don't think of as one. For example, I wouldn't call the spawn point camping a bug. It's just simple griefing or could be considered an exploit. The game is functioning as it's supposed to. It's just that some players have figured out that those points are unprotected and not random. ♥♥♥♥ thing to do.

 

I can give you some examples. I was talking about things like these:

- you can use the minibike to jump into underground bases

- maybe you can use it to teleport through blocks in claimed areas (can minibike frames be placed in claimed areas?)

- you can see and shoot through the terrain

 

But maybe these bugs are unknown to most PvP players?

Edited by Pille (see edit history)
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I kind of disagree with your assessment though. I don't think pvp'ers that have stuck around on 7days want a level playing field. The game mechanics, movement, and netcode are too poor to be a great pvp game. I view pvp players that play shoot-em-ups like CS Go differently than players that play this game, Ark & Rust. The latter audience are more akin to offshoots from MMORPG's than they are round based blood bath games. Granted I've played the former competitively for years, and I'm not knocking it, but I don't want to see 7dtd turn into that. (Madmole - Stop getting ideas of copying H1Z1's king of the Hill).

 

I don't know. As I read through the thread getting the summary it seemed that for a PvP centered mode of play more people are wanting a much faster progression, easier building, and richer harvesting with a shorter vertical progression gap between new players and maxed out players. Bloom seems the most hardcore in wanting it to be a slow progression that takes lots of work and effort and to maintain a well-earned big advantage to longtime players. You say you agree with him 1000% but in reading some of your earlier posts brought over from the other thread and even your newer ones now you seem a bit more moderate in this area than he.

 

I'm willing to admit that my first post calling for removal of skills and perks and experience altogether was probably too draconian of a change but I think Bloom's stance is the other extreme and really is not going to appeal to the broader market of PvPers....yourself included going by some of your own writings. :)

Edited by Roland (see edit history)
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I completely disagree Roland. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. The current playing field gives you a force multiplier of like 20, per Gazz's numbers. It shouldn't be 0 (a level playing field) for this game. It also shouldn't be 20 at max tiers vs lvl 1 either. If you were to keep the current skills & perks, then the force multiplier of a maxxed out player should probably be on the order of 5-10. Really though, it just takes experimentation and playtesting to find the sweetspot.

Basically this.

Progression is a part of the game's character and it's fun. If I mentioned "tossing it all out" at some times it was more in jest and to get a reaction. =P

 

But it cannot stay a factor of 20. That's ridiculous.

Now that I got a small improvement to the skill cost progression code I can make the cost of high perk tiers ramp up dramatically.

Once we get some more weapon diversification going (so that a sniper rifle isn't always best) it would be okay to have a player be very good with one weapon... just not with all weapons/skills at once.

 

This can be a lot more lenient in PVE and the problem with that is that it has to be a very much separate mode.

 

Or at least completely separate "PVP skill points" that can only be used on a low number of "PVP skills".

 

 

I reject the notion that PVP needs to be a separate play mode. This would break apart the playerbase further than it already is. If you don't want to PVP, then play on a server with a PVE ruleset. I think there is plenty of room to mathematically adjust certain skill/damage/health/armor modifiers/zombie damage/zombie health to calibrate a rewarding PVE and balanced PVP experience in the same realm.

 

Ultimately, each skill that rewards % armor, health, damage, and damage redux need to be ranked for effectiveness in a PVE environment and then for a PVP environment. Gazz already did the force multiplier calc for most of this already. It really just boils down that calculation to get this right, and a lot of problems people have with dueling disappear.

Many "PVE" MMOs have optional PVP and it tends to take them years to "get it right"... with a much much bigger development team.

They usually have the same core problem: Massive vertical progression.

 

One common approach is to have completely separate "PVP items" like armor. Regular armor is purely decorative and offers 0 protection in PVP. You must acquire this armor through PVP means. In MMOs this is easier because you can have instanced arena battles. That doesn't fit into 7DTD very well and "natural" and regular PVP action is difficult with a game world of this size.

 

Mixing PVE+PVP on the same server has advantages but it may turn out to be a half-assed PVP mode. I dunno.

Some ideas had be thrown around in the "land claim" thread I linked way above.

If a player / clan has one land claim (that grows over time / with clan size) then we have a lot more options for making it "work well".

Complete "trader" immunity while offline is then very doable with a cooldown so you can't just log out and make your base invulnerable the second someone gets through your outer defenses.

There can even be a "PVP switch" so everyone starts with a completely invulnerable "PVE" base and noobs are automatically protected.

If someone wants to switch to Big Boy PVP mode or back, a cooldown has to run out first because it can be exploited both ways.

Then we have players/clans that are completely untouchable and cannot damage other players or claimed structures. And the others. =)

 

The problem with completely mixing those 2 "modes" into one is the progression inherit in the environment.

Zombies, loot, items, skill - everything is geared towards a slow and steady progression.

"Only" adjusting a few skills doesn't work because you still have a lot of gear progression and stats like HP/wellness.

 

And what I said about perk cost progression also doesn't work so well because in a PVE setting you will be able to pick far more perks and try more things without greatly imbalancing anything.

Just slashing the numbers to where the "PVP effects" are cut down would feel like a lot of grinding for very little effect. But it's doable in code. If (you = PVP) {player skill mod factor = 0.15};

Edited by Gazz (see edit history)
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Some great ideas there!

 

Im really all for the no griefing offline thing, the ONLY times my bases have ever been attacked were when i couldnt defend, thats a crappy feeling.

 

I do think though that there needs to be a perhaps 10 minute period before the effects kick in so insta logging wont be such a good strategy.

 

For PvP, there needs to be some medium range tracking ability so that you can actually track other players, the map of this game is HUGE and you could go days without seeing someone, i think one of the major issues players will face is that its too difficult to force pvp.

 

on a seemingly contrary note, i really hate the gameplay of stacking wooden frames 50 ft high to jump over walls, perhaps a height limit for areas near land claims would be a huge help? id love to see more open bases that dont necessarily need to rely on capped roofs to stop perps.

 

One different issue would be restarting after every spawn, id suggest letting players keep whatever is in their actionbar and add in a new perk that respawns you with some basic armor at low quality (half of what you could create) and clothes (just feet, chest and legs) for instance:

level 1 respawn with plant fiber clothes and a wood breastplate

level 2 respawn with cloth chest armor and some cloth clothes (just feet, chest and legs)

level 3 respawn with leather chest armor and cloth clothes

level 4 respawn with scrap chest armor and cloth clothes

etc

 

other than the scummy base raiding, the pvp in this game has made my pulse run like mad, the high risk high reward makes it feel amazing! though when you lose you feel like dying, it really has the highest highs and the lowest lows

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Gazz -

 

Something in your last paragraph above touched on something that resonated with me. Is Player inflicted damage treated differently than zombie inflicted damage? Or can it be made to be?

 

If so, then a scalar could be applied to player inflicted damage such that the efficiency of armor can be dialed down without affecting the current pve balance against zombies whatsoever.

 

Simply doing that in conjunction with perhaps limiting the wellness pool to 175 would probably be enough to do the trick.

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Mixing PVE+PVP on the same server has advantages but it may turn out to be a half-assed PVP mode. I dunno.

Some ideas had be thrown around in the "land claim" thread I linked way above.

If a player / clan has one land claim (that grows over time / with clan size) then we have a lot more options for making it "work well".

 

With only one land claim allowed, the griefing problem will become much more of an issue within the game's current framework. Some servers allow griefing, which I think is a good idea since it echos reality. But I understand why others hate it. Many servers are mixed on application and some forbid it. This gets enforced with the admins. They will restore the chunk from a previous save. This takes resources that could otherwise be designed away with a more elegant system like maybe you describe, but it does work.

 

Having craftable land claim blocks allows the player to protect themselves from griefing without having to rely on admins. Players should be building their bases in a smart way without exposed claims. Having multiple overlapping claims also makes it difficult to zero in on their location.

 

However, 10 steel for one land claim is absurdly cheap which allows people to spam them. Which is pretty cheesy. I like the servers where the recipe is adjusted to require a moderate amount of resources with 1 or 2 medium-rarity items. This fixes the problem without upsetting the current design. It adds an element of progression since those items are not immediately abundant or sometimes even harvestable by noobs. That makes early game all the more exciting knowing that you need to work on getting steel asap .... or gathering something to get more claims in order to protect your investment (base).

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Just some off the wall ideas. Sorry if I"m a bit all over the place, have a head cold. I"m sure more experienced pvp'ers could easily come up with better ways to implement these.

 

 

Make a specialized faction claim block that gets perks by being purchased from trader joel. Such as increased land claim distance, tougher defenses, energy gird, bonuses to mined ores within the radius, bonuses for players mining, attacking, etc. The list can go on and on. Make the fight be over the faction claim block. Destroying it gives the winning factiona set number of duke coins. This will be based on the raided factions claim block rank that they purchased. Having their block destroyed reduces the raided teams benefits that were purchased from the trader. Allow players to sell back benefits in order to purhase different benefits. Once the faction block is destroyed it ghost making it impossible to hit. Also allow the claim block to open like a chest where its stores the players bed rolls. They have to remove their own bed roll in order to stop spawning there. Once the claim block is ghosted, that faction is auto flipped to pvp passive mode and their base becomes 100% indestructible. Either until a cool down is reached or a visit to trader Joel to pay to have it flipped back on immediately.

 

 

A faction block, once placed, can't be moved without losing all the current perks. This prevents factions from needlessly move their claim block around. Designated team leaders would also be the only ones able to move the block.

 

 

Trader Joels insurance on equipment. Allow players to purchase insurance to attach to their equipment. If a player is killed via pvp, only items on them that can be looted are those without insurance. The killing player instead recieves a set number of duke coins in place of insured items. The respawned player must reinsure his items again in order to recieve the item protection. If the player is killed and belongs to a faction, he respawns at his bases faction block. IF he is a new player who flipped his pvp flag, he is sent back to his bed roll. If a bed roll doesn't exist he is respawned at the nearest trader joel. If he was flipped to pvp when he died, then his bag is lootable.

 

 

New players joining the server who don't belong to a faction will have the pvp flag off by default. In order for them to be able to attack any one, they would have to flip their pvp on in order to engage in pvp prior to joining a faction. If its on and the a player rolls their cursor over the other player they recieve a warning that the new player is in pvp mode. Also, when the player flips to pvp mode, have it make a lound noise. This warns other players an attack is imminent. This will prevent a new player from just walking up and flipping to pvp next to a player in faction mode. Past that, they would be under friendly fire off mode unable to do any damage to players or buildings that have a faction claim block.

 

 

Also, maybe a system that warns new players that they have entered a pvp claim area and put them on a set timer. If they stay too long, they can be shot. This prevents them from waltzing around players bases in order to shout out locations, orders, or to come up with a plan of attack.

Also, if you don't belong to a clan/have a claim block you can't place any objects down in the protected areas x amount of spaces from a faction claim block.

 

 

Players who don't belong to a faction can place a bed roll anywhere outside of claimed areas.

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With only one land claim allowed, the griefing problem will become much more of an issue within the game's current framework.

No, it's the opposite.

Multiple claim blocks - and it doesn't matter if they cost 100000 duke coins - prevent a lot of cool features like "free remodeling inside your claim area" or complete invulnerability of an area.

If claim stones are limited in number they can be a lot more powerful.

 

You can see what complete (building) invulnerability of a potentially large area does on PVE Ark / Conan / etc servers. It's trivially easy to grief with invulnerable structures and admins have to do a lot of large-scale cleanup work.

(Except on Ark official PVE servers. There are no admins so SUX2BU.)

 

Right now (trader) invulnerability can not be allowed because even admins have no good way of fixing exploits with that and therefore cheesy offline raiding is all the rage and that leads to players logging in and having the uhh... exciting PVP experience of finding their base reduced to rubble when they couldn't do a thing to prevent it.

 

Admins / players restoring a map area is only a sign of how unsatisfactory the system is. =P

 

If a claim blocks costs 10 small rocks but you can only have one then a newbie can get a tutorial quest step to craft and put down a claim block. Dieing and losing that precious block is no trouble at all. If you place a new one then old one will poof or have 1 HP.

 

If a claim block were a single entity it would be easy to track even in unloaded chunks. The "block" itself can be always invulnerable and you only interact with it through an action / radial / whatever menu.

 

Raiding could work like:

- The location of the claim block is obvious either on the map or by the big honking clan flag over the spot.

- Destroy what you need to get to the enemy claim block in the most efficient way.

- Interact with the block to prove that you "have raided the base".

- Only then can you open containers in that area. Before you get to the claim stone you can only destroy containers without getting loot.

 

A respawn option at your / the clan's claim stone if you die - I see no problem with that. It may be teleportation but it's quite limited by having only 2 very specific locations tops.

 

Yes, does not allow players to protect ginormous mega-structures... but I suppose that's only a matter of how big the server setting for the claim area is.

Even then, a much weaker "outpost" claim block is still an option. Zero bonus features - just a bit of claim protection.

 

Mind you, none of this is a specific plan, much less in a ticket for a coder to make that happen.

Just toying with the idea to see how far it can be pushed. =P

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Claim Block Options

  • Offline setting so that griefing and assaulting your base cannot happen unless you are online to defend

 

  • No offline invulnerability as anti-player base design is possible through creativity and experience

 

Uh what?

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What if these things like king of the hill and cap the flag whould be events like every 15 days and we whould get some cool stuff like guns ammo

not whole different game modes

 

they could be game modes too but what i want in pvp is to fight for stuff besides base raid stuff and air drops

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i ve been playing pvp in 1 year so i have a good exp in that kind of stuff thank you very much of you to take a look at the pvp players because pvp on 7 days to die is such an amazing exp

i really would like the claim stones will be invisible or fix the underground glitch that can make ppl see it and take it out or make it like a trader thing you can t hit it if you are not a freind of the owner of it

the gun shots must be heard lowd so we can hear ppl when they shot and making c4 or explosive things like the rocket launcher can make a good damage like rust

removing the horde night is not a good thing cuz we are using it to gather loot or getting exp for level up

the hp of a block is so bad speacially when its on a claimed area like a concret block can take 10 min with a high level tools

making torrets is a good thing because if you are offline your base will be in danger

skills are so important in the game because its going to give your hard work a result not like Cod a guy with a level 1 can kill a guy with level 200 skill deleting is so bad

the raid only when a player is online is not good it s going to destroy the game play

the pvp having a huge issues in the game that pve player won t notice it the pic will be inculuded to make it clear more even sometimes you can be invisible if you get killed more then 6 times ( bug since a13 )

the combat movement is bad in the game speacialy the melle things i hope will be better on a16

the cheaters problem : ive been sufring from cheaters so much only thing that save me is the admins can do a rollback in the area

loosing hp when you die on pvp is pointless i hope its going to be removed

please fix the bike bugs such as disapearing/ fall in the map all this things will cause a huge performance down in the game specialy on a big server like word of anarchy and nebelbank which contain 50 player and the bikes are so important because all the pvp server using random gen as we know is so big and its going to take so damn much time to find bases and looting cities

so thank you guys for incoming update man really wish the best for this game and sorry for my english doing my best :)2015-12-19_00001-1024x576.thumb.jpg.a5701b606a04f2ca8d6dcceaf123fe78.jpg

Edited by NeferPitou (see edit history)
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No, it's the opposite.

Multiple claim blocks - and it doesn't matter if they cost 100000 duke coins - prevent a lot of cool features like "free remodeling inside your claim area" or complete invulnerability of an area.

If claim stones are limited in number they can be a lot more powerful.

 

If there is one claim block. I (and others) will remove it and destroy the entire base every time. At end game, I often don't care what the loot is inside the base. I'm raiding it to disable my enemy.

 

By being able to craft them and protecting your base appropriately, it becomes unfeasible to find them all. This prevents raiders from dismantling the base. It also makes it a very costly exercise to try and search for hidden chests. This provides some event of survivability to your loot/resources in the event you get raided.

Edited by Poojam (see edit history)
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If there is one claim block. I (and others) will remove it and destroy the entire base every time. At end game, I often don't care what the loot is inside the base. I'm raiding it to disable my enemy.

 

By being able to craft them and protecting your base appropriately, it becomes unfeasible to find them all. This prevents raiders from dismantling the base. It also makes it a very costly exercise to try and search for hidden chests. This provides some event of survivability to your loot/resources in the event you get raided.

Yah, but there's the rub.

The current workaround of spamming claimstones everywhere is just that.

 

By making it a single claimstone we have all the options for making it very powerful.

 

No finished design - just throwing some ideas around...

  • The claimstone itself is invulnerable. No one can destroy it or undermine it to make it fall.
    (it would be an entity and not really a part of the "block" system)
  • The damage multiplier is dynamic.
    If you destroy x% of a fortification the protection multiplier goes up y%.
    And I wouldn't rule out that it can ramp up into complete invulnerability.

So even as an attacker on a giant concrete fortress with 100000 blocks you would want to limit damage and cut a tiny path into it to keep the protection multiplier down. So a raid instead of razing the walls and salting the earth.

However, you're still dealing with A Giant Concrete Fortress so... for values of tiny. And you have to expect traps, surprise pits that you have to backtrack around, hidden switches and motion detectors that may alter the path... fun stuff.

 

Some guy with a stone axe breaking into a small wooden hut would not have to deal with a lot of auto turrets but the damage multiplier may make complete devastation impractical.

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Introduction

 

Hello folks, a quick introduction. I have been playing 7DTD since Alpha 8, currently with 2,200 hours played. I have been hosting my own PvP server almost continuously since I started playing. I have participated in dozens of raids, been raided plenty myself, and have seen the results of literally hundreds of raids. I have personally witnessed many dozens of raids and PvP battles as a silent observer, and heard the concerns of all players involved. I am very happy that TFP are looking at a special game mode for PvP. There have been some very good points made so far, and I would like to contribute my own thoughts. I will repeat some things that have already been mentioned that I agree with as they fit with the model of PvP I see as being successful.

 

First of all, the players who want PvP do not want a drastically different style of game, they enjoy building and they enjoy some level of progression. The element of competing against other players is what makes it challenging and rewarding. I agree that some of the vertical progression needs to be removed for balanced PvP, but no one is looking for a CoD or Battlefield style deathmatch. The desired difference between an advanced character and a fresh character is IMO the foundation from which many other design decisions will derive. A starting player with starting gear should probably be operating at about 1/3 the combat effectiveness of an advanced character. It's still possible to kill / be killed with that ratio, but the advanced player receives recognition for his time investment. (You can always stack the deck in either direction by adding more characters to a group). The next consideration is how much of the character advantage do you want to be attributable to gear, and how much is attributable to raw character stats? I would recommend that top end gear has approximately 2x the effect of top character stats, so a fully geared and fully leveled character would get 2/3 his power from what he is wearing. That's just a guess, it could be 1/2 and 1/2. Gear is something that can be swapped onto a new character to give them a competitive edge, but gear is also costly and easily lost. Again, advantage to the experienced character but situationally the new character can still be effective.

 

What should be removed

 

There are some elements of the survival game that I don't think fit well with the design of PvP, starting with Wellness. I don't think the whole concept of wellness works at all with PvP where you want to engage with players and court death, only to have a great potion of your health wiped out that will take hours and hours to build up again. It has been suggested here that wellness gain be sped up, but I think that's a patch on a wobbly tire. Instead of wellness, players could just respawn with less and less of their maximum health each time they die, they could still use a medkit to top up their health, and the waste of resources for the medkit would be their punishment. Consecutive deaths in a short time period would either force a player to go out with little health, or force them to spend resources. To me that seems like a good enough trade off.

 

The next thing I see as needing to be removed are all involuntary grunts, groans, sighs. They are a cinematic style of effect which can aid in immersion in SP or Coop, but are frustrating for PvP. If you think of a soldier crawling though the ditches to reach his objectives, and he cuts himself on barbed wire, do you think he's going to cry out like a wimp and alert all the enemies to his position? No, he's going to grit his teeth and keep pushing through. It could be made so that a character in stealth mode has all those sounds muted, but honestly for things like stomach growling or sighing because you are too hot, they should not even be heard by other players and should only be to alert the player about their character needs.

 

Since we are imagining a lesser spread between high level and low level gear, I don't see Leveled loot as necessary and it would probably just complicate things. I suggest that better loot spawns on tougher enemies, who exist in less accessible locations. Newbs should have to travel to put themselves in sufficiently dangerous environments to even find the enemies that would drop the better loot, not for example cherry picking the odd tough enemy that strolls by the safe area of their base. Players who want to build in tougher areas should have access to the better loot, but also be at greater risk. In short, areas for advanced characters and areas for newbs with sufficient rewards for both.

 

Gun parts. This is not high on the list for me, but the idea of breaking a gun into smaller parts seems redundant to simply collecting better or worse guns with less frequency. I also am not sold on the idea of combining your weapons in a workbench, I feel like if you have two average quality guns you should be able to take them to the trader and sell them for the cost of a better weapon. I would like to see guns as more of a type of currency, all guns will do the job, there's no such thing as a useless gun, but they are harder to come by. This is sort of how the old 7DTD worked

 

7th day hordes. Again, this is not a make it or break it for me, but with the threat of players being the main draw, we probably don't need regularly timed onslaughts of zombies to keep things exciting. Besides, any experienced player will set up a grinder for farming hordes, if anything it encourages players to sit around their base and let the loot come to them. To make it exciting the hordes should come on random days of the week, and at random times of the night (but always at night). That way players will really learn to fear the night and be very careful about panning their night time excursions. And for screamer hordes? They are being farmed too but luckily the loot isn't that interesting for a high level character.

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What should be changed

 

Something that's been mentioned and I agree with, is that combat should be slowed down. Because this is not a pure combat game, there should be at least some time for a player to react. It's good that players can use sound to alert them to another player nearby, but in an equal match it will often come down to who pulls the trigger first, and in an unequal match currently... well the outcome is already decided.

 

Land claims could use some tweaking. I am in favour of there being less land claims with a greater value attached. I'm not sure whether the land claim should be a physical block or an invisible zone of control. With a block it gives players something to seek after as another form of loot. In previous alphas I have tunneled through many layers of concrete to dig out a land claim without being interested in anything the land claim was protecting. The biggest problem with a physical block is that new players tend to die easily and lose their inventories. As the most valuable single item in the game, newbs were often hunted and killed for their starter claim. Perhaps if the cost wasn't the block itself, but the block had to be upgraded with a quantity of expensive resources after it's been placed, that could solve that problem. Either way, I think you should be able to have more than 1 claim and/or be able to expand your zone of claim, but I think the cost should increase with each expansion.

 

Player respawn points. I think there should be multiple bedroll spawn points available for a player to choose from. I don't consider killing a player over and over again griefing when you're trying to raid his base, because what else are you supposed to do? But I think a player should be able to have multiple retreat points if his first bedroll is either overrun or destroyed. If there was an increasing cost associated with the placement of bedrolls such as is proposed for land claims, then I think it would be a good system.

 

World spawn points. It has been mentioned multiple times already but I would like to add my opinion that world spawn points should be dynamic instead of static. I have both seen, and experienced player traps while spawning into a new world. I feel like there should be some intelligence behind the spawning system where it checks the location both for other players and player bases nearby, and for any player created structures, and just generally avoids them as a rule.

 

What should be added

 

I feel that the spawning system and the general quality of life for new players would be improved with designated newbie starting zones. With the introduction of NPCs, these starting zones could be friendly settlements that are willing to help shelter newer players. I see these as places a character could "crash on a couch" at the very least, or rent one of the storage looking spaces that are present in the trader prefabs. the trade-off for this protection would be that the starter zone has little in the way of resources, and that staying or renting a small plot to build on would cost a weekly amount of dukes. There could be NPC missions to start off with though to help the player get their foot in the world.

 

Due to the nature of the PvE which is the main source of loot and progression even in a PvP server, and in agreement with my thoughts on leveled loot and starting zones, I think that the biomes could be better organized to represent a gradient of easy-hard-harder with player starting zones being somewhere in the middle. Right now the middle of the map is zero city, which is supposed to represent one of the harder if not hardest areas. But I think it would make more logical sense if the centre of the map was the safe area and the fringes were the harder areas. This would make sense because Navezgane is described as one of the last "Edens" on earth. Even though many of us are playing Random Gen, I think our random gen maps carry the spirit of navezgane. So an Eden presumably has a lush middle and an outside fringe. Already we have a rad zone representing the fringe which we are not allowed to pass, in spite of the lore I just think it would make more logical sense if the biomes leading up to the rad zone were less and less hospitable. The rad zone represents the ultimate in difficulty where you need special gear even to explore, and there could be the greatest number of hardest enemies. I'm not saying there shouldn't be a bombed out city near the centre for daring newbs to explore, just the general progression of difficulty should radiate outwards.

 

Faction allegiance. This is probably already planned in some way, but my take would be if there is a friendly NPC faction (or more than one), and if there is a bandit faction (or multiple), it should be possible to gain faction allegiance through your actions in game. This includes everything from killing friendly NPCs which gains you points with the bandits, or fetching water for the friendly NPCs which gains you favour with them. The gains from this would be better access to trade and resources, less rent costs or access to better missions from friendly factions, less hostility in the case of bandits, and perhaps a situation where the bandits do not attack you in their lands in exchange for weekly tribute. The more bad deeds you do for them (including killing non-aligned players and NPCs) the less tribute they would demand. This of course makes you a KOS target for the normally friendly NPCs. Where this comes into play in a PvP world, is that the more prolific player killers would be banished to the outlands of the bandit regions, and away from the starting player zones.

 

Ease of rebuilding. Players want to destroy other players stuff, and I think there is a certain thrill even as a builder in testing your defenses and watching holes getting blown in your base, whether it is from zombies or other players. The problem with this is that it is too time consuming and tedious to rebuild damaged base structures. There needs to be some system in place to restore a base to its previous form, whether it takes a resource cost or the help of NPC followers. If you don't want people rage quitting after the first big raid, you need to throw them something to help keep them in the game.

 

Banking and item insurance. I believe that a player character who is friendly among a faction should be able to deposit valuable items in a common bank. I think that just as zombies are a persistent threat in the world that is never really eliminated, so there should be an NPC presence that can never really be wiped out by the players. Players enjoy PvP, but there needs to be a persistent PvE element to help keep the balance. A player could rent a deposit box at the NPC bank and store a limited number of items for a rental fee. If the bank is ever broken into, it's up to the game whether the player gets what's actually in the box or not, but either way the player is able to be fully reimbursed every time. The down side to this is that it's a container at a bank and not in the players base, so if they need access to it, they have to travel and risk losing their valuables after picking them up. It would be nice to be able to insure the contents of a container from within your own base, but it would take some thought based on the potential for exploit, and should perhaps be restricted to areas within the control zone of friendly factions.

 

Territory control around land claims. There are cases where you kill a trespasser, but they have a sleeping bag nearby so they immediately come back to harass you some more. I'm not sure on this, but I think it could be a good mechanic where if you kill someone inside of your zone of control, they are forced to spawn further away. You could in theory "push back" an attack just by successfully defending against it.

 

Player tracking. It would be nice to have some sort of tracking system in place to tell who was in your area, and what direction they went. I don't really know how the details of this would work but I think it's worth looking into. Some server manager mods use /who to straight out tell you, but I think that's a little inelegant and would like to see something implemented on the game side. Knowledge is power and knowing who is around you is one of the most sought after pieces of information among PvP players. This could perhaps be expanded to animal tracking as well, or maybe be an offshoot of animal tracking.

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Discussion Points

 

It has been argued several times that PvP means engaging with other players in a combat setting and not raiding bases while the owner is offline. I have to disagree a bit, I think that PvP is testing your level of game against other players whether it's in the realm of FPS combat or base construction. And, to get real about the situation, 90% or greater of all raids happen while the owner is offline. There's not much that can be done about this either, even a shoddy base has a massive advantage against invading forces while the owner is online. The only times I've sen successful raiding against online player bases is when the claim multiplier was set to low (x4) and the raiding players did surprise attacks, were better equipped, and just generally more experienced. It would be nice to have a game mode where your base spawns beside an enemy base and you both attack each other while trying to defend and repair, but realistically that's not the kind of game this is. I don't think that raiding online players will ever be a thing with the way the game is set up and I think we might have to accept that, unless you want to move to very low or no claim multiplier. In which case the base had better be invulnerable while offline or kiss it all goodbye, then you have to worry about people logging and what kind of rules you will enforce such as a timer before the invulnerability kicks in, just doesn't seem to me like the best path to go down. I would rather see things like insurance and base rebuilding and let people have their offline fun.

 

A few people have noted that base raiding is boring, repetitive, even an embarrassment. I don't see how this stands in light of activities such as mining which are literally leaning on the left mouse button for hours on end. But you know what? It's fun because it represents progress, and it causes change in the game world. Those incentives are enough for raiding as well. I don't think raiding should be excessively boring, as others have suggested I think x16 to x24 is about the right spot for balancing claim strength and security with the ability to raid right now, but in the long run I think maybe something like an increasing claim modifier that reacts to damage could be a better solution. It's something that might have to be toyed with a bit to determine the right damage curve, but it's probably doable.

 

A note about the ability to build defenses versus the ability to break them. Mathematically speaking we build in a 3D world where the most efficient shape is basically a cube (circle maybe, but probably not for this game). So the more you want to build something up and protect it, you have to build it out on 3 planes, x, y, and z. On the other hand a person breaching only has to attack along 1 plane, so to prevent weak spots a builder usually will want to build all directions equally, (not counting internal obfuscation of base layout). What this basically means is that a defender has to build and protect along a cubic growth curve for the time and resources required to expand that defense, while an attacking player only has to attack along 1 plane which is a linear growth curve. In the long run, all things being equal, the attacker gains the advantage in terms of time and resource cost to effect.

 

Generally speaking, block for block, pound for pound, the total time it takes to destroy something should be roughly equal to the total time it took to build it. This includes all indirect costs such as mining the clay to smelt the iron, or crafting the rockets and gathering the components. As a good rule of thumb and for sanity check, the approximate time it took to craft something should approximately equal the time it takes for an enemy to destroy it. There are exceptions of course with things such as decorative blocks, and collapsing of entire structures which bypasses the whole idea. If rockets can get you through 3 vault doors in 15 minutes and a pickaxe takes 45, the crafting time for the rockets should be at least another 30 minutes, if not more due to the fact they are more valuable by dumping more damage quickly when it's needed. Balancing of time as a resource is crucial for balancing PvP interactions in a persistent world.

 

Character builds should be non-exhaustive among combat perks. I almost think combat skills should be completely separate from non-combat skills. Given the option, most PvP players will opt out of domestic perks to max their combat ones. Given that the intention for character builds is to have them not able to max out on every skill, but rather to have to pick and choose, I think characters should have to pick and choose among their available combat related skills and specialize in combat roles. Examples of combat related skills would be, increased health, increased damage, increased speed, higher resistances, improved stealth. Not that a character shouldn't be allowed to have something from every category, but the categories should be sufficiently deep to drink up a characters skill points without filling all of them up.

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i totally agree with you man

but you forget about heavy bugs on the game that must be fixed.. this bugs will have no effect on a PVE player

1 - underground glitch

2 - invisible player glitch ( buy get killed plus then 6 times you are going to be invisible and you will get killed )

3 - every one can be able to hear the voice chat for trolling .. some ppl from china or russia playing songs and stay under the ground all the day and you have to disable the game sound i hope there will be an option to disable the game voice chat

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I can agree with a lot of that, too.

 

The newbie zone... that would take a lot of design and content to pull off so I doubt that will make it.

 

Somewhat scaling back all that progression is what I've been saying all along. To which degree? Hard to tell.

 

Individual weapon parts... right now add zero gameplay value or choice.

There is no choice between a QL 350 receiver and a QL 400 receiver. You use the 400 and workbench-combine the 300. Always.

I could dump all the parts and make weapons drop as functional items with a QL and nothing would change.

Until we get weapon parts with different abilities or bonus features at the same QL, the parts system does zip.

 

With a more powerful claimstone / claim interface and the "whole prefab placement" feature the game could know which blocks were destroyed and repairs could be performed by NPC hammering away at virtual blocks until all blocks have been restored... while repair supplies last.

Or you "repair" the claim stone and block after block is put back into your walls - so you don't have to work with scaffolding up and down, don't have to carefully rotate and align blocks... that sort of thing. Heavy damage would still take longer to repair and that's what matters from a balancing POV.

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Not much of a PvPer and I admit to not having read this thread (yet) but I know that the only opinion that I have on the matter is in regards to factions...I prefer 3 over 2

 

In all my years of PvP experience (albeit limited in personal participation and more involved through watching) it always seems that 3 factions allows for more balance over having just 2 to choose from. There's always the possibility for alliances where having only 2 factions eliminates that possibility. Without alliances one faction always ends up dominant.

 

Again, I don't pretend to know a lot about this subject and I could be very well wrong but this is how it seems to me.

 

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Individual weapon parts... right now add zero gameplay value or choice.

There is no choice between a QL 350 receiver and a QL 400 receiver. You use the 400 and workbench-combine the 300. Always.

I could dump all the parts and make weapons drop as functional items with a QL and nothing would change.

Until we get weapon parts with different abilities or bonus features at the same QL, the parts system does zip.

 

With a more powerful claimstone / claim interface and the "whole prefab placement" feature the game could know which blocks were destroyed and repairs could be performed by NPC hammering away at virtual blocks until all blocks have been restored... while repair supplies last.

Or you "repair" the claim stone and block after block is put back into your walls - so you don't have to work with scaffolding up and down, don't have to carefully rotate and align blocks... that sort of thing. Heavy damage would still take longer to repair and that's what matters from a balancing POV.

 

Totally with you on the weapon parts. For the claim system, yeah I think it needs an overhaul. Both things you suggest sound really good. Also, we need that renovation tool.

 

If there's not going to be a structured difficulty progression with the land areas, then probably will still need leveled loot.

 

And just so I mention it, we also need invisibility / invulnerability / looking through players eyes in our admin tools. I would go so far as to say take a screen shot of a player when they kill another so we can see what was happening, or even a 5 second video, but that's probably dreaming. It's just that if we have to accept dealing with cheaters as a reality, it would be nice to have some tools to combat them. I could probably make a long write-up about all the things that would make our job easier. [edit] And seeing underground, obviously. But I think a fix is coming for A16 (fingers crossed).

Edited by 7daysguy (see edit history)
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