Everybody wanted Traders nerfed

[meganoth]

3 hours ago, RipClaw said:

In A21 there were a lot of posts saying that traders, quest rewards and looting are too powerful and are killing crafting. Now the roles are swapped.

 

 

IMO looting was the only one with a fitting dependable progression, and conesquently loot-tables were not changed (except for different reasons like new items, ...) in 1.0, AFAIK. Crafting was too slow if you played "naturally" and distributed your points or too fast if you perked with hidden knowledge which a normal player had nearly no chance to know. And only the trader mostly in combination with INT perks (especially DA) was hyperfast.

 

Some players attributed quest rewards to looting and therefore said looting was too fast. I disagree, quests are part of the trader loop. My group got all their end-game stuff either from rewards or bought them off the trader with money mostly from rewards and selling items for too many dukes

 

Edited July 23 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Kalen]

10 hours ago, FranticDan said:

I'm not a fan of the ability to craft Q6, it kills looting once you're able to. Unlocking Q6 armour on day 24, every time I find armour its like, this is useless to me now. There's no more excitement in looting

Thats because item degradation is no longer a thing.   When it was, there was reason to keep looting/crafting because you knew eventually you'd need to replace gear.

[Gideon]

Interesting. The game has never held my attention long enough to get that late in to progression.

[Fenris]

11 hours ago, FranticDan said:

I'm not a fan of the ability to craft Q6, it kills looting once you're able to. Unlocking Q6 armour on day 24, every time I find armour its like, this is useless to me now. There's no more excitement in looting

Agreed. I always think it's a bad choice to let players make the best items. With how easy it is to get legendary parts, being able to make Q6 items just destroys any reason to loot, salvage , ..... leave the base, etc. By day 6 on my current playthrough I had 6 legendary parts. One I stole from Rekt, at least two where taken out of trash piles on the ground, and the rest in various containers you wouldn't expect to find them in.

 

I mean it was always annoying to loot that Q6 steel spear (was always that stupid spear for me) in the past since I never used a spear. But when I found the Q6 item I used that was a great feeling. Now you can just make one from parts I find in the trash. I do think legendary parts should only be found in end loot chests, with a small chance at lower tiers and a slightly large one at higher tiers.

 

Edited July 23 by Fenris (see edit history)

[Rotor]

2 minutes ago, Fenris said:

Agreed. I always think it's a bad choice to let players make the best items.

 

 

I disagree and posit that if traders were removed, you would need to loot or craft everything.

 

Most of the problems would be resolved :).

[Fenris]

1 minute ago, Rotor said:

 

I disagree and posit that if traders were removed, you would need to loot or craft everything.

 

Most of the problems would be resolved :).

You didn't have to buy from traders. In fact in a lot of my games in the past I only showed up to the trader to get the first quest done, and then never again.

[Rotor]

I know, I dont.  Just saying that letting someone craft stuph doesnt preclude you from looting.  

 

Sounds like a nerf to Q6 parts is more what is needed.   Afterall they nerfed water jars  (yes, dead horse, I will flog it a while longer).  

 

I am the odd one that walks around for days looking for bicycle parts, etc.  So, yes, I want to craft everything........including the freaking water filter.

 

Yes, when I can play I use crafted water filter mod in A21.

[Whorhay]

Trader quest rewards were definitely overboard in previous versions. That said the nerf to them in 1.0 is pretty incredible. I've had over 150 quest turn-ins so far and only had a half dozen times or so where I was really happy with the reward. Most of the time it feels like a slap in the face. The showcased reward isn't all that terrible so far as they go, as there is at least a legendary part on offer, and the two magazines could possibly be worth something if you didn't have them already, and are worth a hundred dukes if nothing else. A small partial stack of ammunition at that stage of the game though is pretty worthless. I think the most amusing rewards though are the single servings of a low quality food like bacon and eggs. It feels like the quality of reward range is just way to broad and should have the low end brought up significantly and the stack sizes for things like ammo and food increased.

[warmer]

On 7/22/2024 at 8:19 AM, zombiehunter said:

They got what they wanted.  Check out this T6 Infestation reward choice:

Pretty underwhelming and disappointing.

You shouldn't use words like "everybody" to describe some people. I certainly didn't want it nerfed. 6000 dukes and 36k xp is a damn fine reward. If you are just talking about the actual items, that is secondary to the dukes and xp. 

[Gr.o.m.]

23 hours ago, ElCabong said:

I never wanted the traders nerfed

My opinion is the same.

Nerfing means reducing options and taking away choices. Better belancing? YES!

The pimps could do so many good things to improve the trader:

 

If your lootstage and or traderqueststage is below item quality, then prices should be doubled or trippled.

Progressionitems like vehicles, magzines or beaker should be always available, but also at increased prices and yes if your gamestage is to low, the price should be 5-10 times the normel price.   Why? Because now you might have goals,  ("only 50k more dukes for that beatufiul motorcycle) and you have to do tough choices. 750 dukes for that vehicle magazine or food, so I might not starve to death?

[ElCabong]

The next release besides keeping us out of the biomes unless we're equipped properly will probably have better armor and stuff for us to make.

[Mister Forgash]

I think the trader balancing is, overall, better than ever, but just needs more work. I agree quest rewards aren't quite there yet- Too often I think 'why bother' when I see the options: Bullets I wont use, food that will rot in my lootbox, or a single farming book. I think I'd rather see gunpowder/casings over bullets and remove single mags from the reward pool in favor of the mag bundles.. but as far as trader inventory stock progression, I've been really happy- With an exception I feel higher quality/level goods should be more expensive.

 

Edit: I'd also like to see more things like forged iron, clay, cobble stone etc.

Edited July 23 by Mister Forgash (see edit history)

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, Whorhay said:

Trader quest rewards were definitely overboard in previous versions. That said the nerf to them in 1.0 is pretty incredible. I've had over 150 quest turn-ins so far and only had a half dozen times or so where I was really happy with the reward. Most of the time it feels like a slap in the face. The showcased reward isn't all that terrible so far as they go, as there is at least a legendary part on offer, and the two magazines could possibly be worth something if you didn't have them already, and are worth a hundred dukes if nothing else. A small partial stack of ammunition at that stage of the game though is pretty worthless. I think the most amusing rewards though are the single servings of a low quality food like bacon and eggs. It feels like the quality of reward range is just way to broad and should have the low end brought up significantly and the stack sizes for things like ammo and food increased.

 

Remember that if you play in a group you ALL get the reward but you can do such a quest much faster and easier than a single player. Therefore a bigger reward would upset the balance between single player and multiplayer. This is probably a reason for TFP to tune the reward down so much, no matter how much that change is liked or not liked.

 

Ammo is always in need. If you have too much ammo just play a difficulty step higher where you need more bullets for each zombie, eventually there should be a point where you are happy about ammo, no matter how much.

Naturally this now feels like a big nerf since everybody is used to getting showered with gifts by the trader. In a short time you will get used to it and see it as the cherry on top of a cake that is the POI itself. And at that point you might actually enjoy visiting a POI nearby without a quest, just because it looks interesting. In previous alphas there was always this thought in the back of my mind that I was loosing out on the big trader reward if I looted a non-quest POI.

 

 

 

 

[zombiehunter]

8 hours ago, warmer said:

You shouldn't use words like "everybody" to describe some people. I certainly didn't want it nerfed. 6000 dukes and 36k xp is a damn fine reward. If you are just talking about the actual items, that is secondary to the dukes and xp. 

You are right and that is why I posted this yesterday:

 

 I should not have said "everybody."  I should have said "many players."

 

Perhaps you didn't see that post.

[Whorhay]

The game isn't supposed to be balanced for multiplayer, as solo is the intended balance point. If they want to add a bit of code to use a separate loot pool when there are more than one players turning in the same quest, that's fine by me. If they did that they could even split the coin and exp as well.

In the first week or two 50 rounds of ammo isn't a total waste, especially if it's the proper caliber. But by the time you're doing T4's and better you probably have the capacity to pump out ammunition of whatever type you need in full stacks, if not boxes. Ammo of the wrong type usually just piles up and eventually gets sold, but with the nerfs to buy and sell prices ammo is hardly worth holding to sell. The people talking about ammo scarcity always confuse me, I've never noticed a shortage of ammo after the first week or two, are ya'll just praying and spraying for body shots of something. Rads can soak up a lot of rounds, even as headshots. Maybe I just melee more than most people, I usually save the guns for hairy spots and horde nights, or when I'm really just trying to rush a PoI ASAP.

[Bhaaltazar]

T5 or T6 takes waaay too long ( 7Days suits drove me mad looking for missed zombies for a whole day running around looking for few groups I somehow missed ) to be worth doing it for traders.
I did couple off them just for the sake of a resetting of POI so I can scrap them for materials ( book stores for those roles of paper - for shotgun shells crafting, Army outpost 7 for  beds and car parts, Grover high for quick library run and quick xp with all the zombies hordes you get...)
Lower tier quests gets you quick magazine bundles or duct tapes.

Otherwise I only use traders to buy couple of food ( cans and potatoes/corn ), than usually I buy cobblestone to save time, occasionally duct tape and glue, magazines, lamps, Dew collector 1st two mods and Crucible to send me ahead. That is it, all the rest is useless in their menu.

Don't even bother with them, just go to the wasteland for higher Loot stage and you get all the items you need much faster for lower tier POI's.
Also for skill progression just do mail boxes, newspaper stands and bookstores instead of buying from traders - frankly that is all game is all about now since there is no learn by doing anymore. 

 

[Outlaw_187]

I have to agree with the original poster. It did seem a little over powered before but now the rewards, for the most part, are very underwhelming. 

I do understand the need for the change so I'm definitely not complaining, just adding my opinion in I guess. 

 

BRING BACK THE TOPLESS STRIPPER ZOMBIE!!! 😁

[Riamus]

3 hours ago, Whorhay said:

The game isn't supposed to be balanced for multiplayer, as solo is the intended balance point. If they want to add a bit of code to use a separate loot pool when there are more than one players turning in the same quest, that's fine by me. If they did that they could even split the coin and exp as well.

In the first week or two 50 rounds of ammo isn't a total waste, especially if it's the proper caliber. But by the time you're doing T4's and better you probably have the capacity to pump out ammunition of whatever type you need in full stacks, if not boxes. Ammo of the wrong type usually just piles up and eventually gets sold, but with the nerfs to buy and sell prices ammo is hardly worth holding to sell. The people talking about ammo scarcity always confuse me, I've never noticed a shortage of ammo after the first week or two, are ya'll just praying and spraying for body shots of something. Rads can soak up a lot of rounds, even as headshots. Maybe I just melee more than most people, I usually save the guns for hairy spots and horde nights, or when I'm really just trying to rush a PoI ASAP.

The game is supposed to be balanced for multiplayer.  This isn't a solo game, though it can be played that way.  Although I have no data on it, I'm sure more than half the players play the game in multiplayer, either only multiplayer or in addition to single player.  The game is 1-8 players officially.  Perhaps you're mixing up the statement that balancing for PVP or balancing for more than 8 players isn't the goal for the developers.  But balancing for 1-8 players is supposed to happen.

 

As far as ammo, most people short on ammo after the early game are likely those who like to use a lot of turrets for horde night as those burn ammo quickly.  And whatever ammo you personally use regularly will usually be low unless you're crafting a lot of ammo.  When I used to use 9mm (SMG) all the time, I was always low on 9mm and had crates of everything else.  I then switched to desert vulture for my main weapon and left the 9mm for turrets and things balanced out better, though 7.62mm and shotgun were still very high.  It also comes down to whether or not people are crafting ammo.  A lot of players don't craft unless absolutely necessary, so they mostly only use ammo they find or buy.  Others craft it but don't spend time crafting the parts (casings, shells, gunpowder) and so can only craft as much as they find parts for.  Obviously, that's a player choice that affects the amount of ammo and not a game issue.  But it isn't really wrong to play the game that way if you don't enjoy crafting.

32 minutes ago, Bhaaltazar said:

T5 or T6 takes waaay too long ( 7Days suits drove me mad looking for missed zombies for a whole day running around looking for few groups I somehow missed ) to be worth doing it for traders.
I did couple off them just for the sake of a resetting of POI so I can scrap them for materials ( book stores for those roles of paper - for shotgun shells crafting, Army outpost 7 for  beds and car parts, Grover high for quick library run and quick xp with all the zombies hordes you get...)
Lower tier quests gets you quick magazine bundles or duct tapes.

Otherwise I only use traders to buy couple of food ( cans and potatoes/corn ), than usually I buy cobblestone to save time, occasionally duct tape and glue, magazines, lamps, Dew collector 1st two mods and Crucible to send me ahead. That is it, all the rest is useless in their menu.

Don't even bother with them, just go to the wasteland for higher Loot stage and you get all the items you need much faster for lower tier POI's.
Also for skill progression just do mail boxes, newspaper stands and bookstores instead of buying from traders - frankly that is all game is all about now since there is no learn by doing anymore. 

 

I used to think that, but now I don't think they are all that long.  Yes, T5 POI are a big step up from T4 POI, but once you know the POI, you can cruise right through them without taking all that long.  Still might be double a T4, but I don't think that's all that bad.  Sure, you can quest or just loot only T4s and get through a lot of them quickly.  But the T5 POI are really well done and worth doing, imo.  There is a lot of loot in them, regardless of quest rewards.  And having a POI last longer than 15 minutes is nice.  But to each their own.  If you don't like spending time in a POI, the game makes it easy not to have to do so.  For those who like these large POI, they are there for us.

 

Btw, if your game play choice is to loot higher biomes right away rather than working up to them, be prepared for the changes to biomes that will probably make that not possible until later in the game.  Wasteland is intended to be all radiation, so until you can handle that, you aren't going to be able to go there.  They haven't given details about the other biomes, but the plan is to make them hard to rush towards.

[meganoth]

8 hours ago, Whorhay said:

The game isn't supposed to be balanced for multiplayer, as solo is the intended balance point.

 

Gosh, that's news to me. I am sure you have a reliable source from inside TFP that told you that, right? 😁

 

[meganoth]

8 hours ago, Whorhay said:

In the first week or two 50 rounds of ammo isn't a total waste, especially if it's the proper caliber. But by the time you're doing T4's and better you probably have the capacity to pump out ammunition of whatever type you need in full stacks, if not boxes. Ammo of the wrong type usually just piles up and eventually gets sold, but with the nerfs to buy and sell prices ammo is hardly worth holding to sell.

 

Lets say ammo scarcity is something the developers want to achieve for a good balance. Even though that is hard to reach, especially since it also has to be balanced between novice players and veterans. While especially in A20 and A21 you were almost buried in ammunition, 1.0 has made a step in the right direction. I always thought that higher difficulty settings should also automatically adjust loot abundance downwards as well. In the mean time, if you feel there is no challenge in getting ammo and other materials then please adjust loot abundance yourself.

 

[Scyris]

22 hours ago, Gideon said:

Interesting. The game has never held my attention long enough to get that late in to progression.

 

You really need to use mods, Vanilla is a @%$# poor experience in 1.0 and has gone nothing but downhill after a16.4. Its at the point now you basically require mods to have actual proper progression and a mid/late game, not to mention all the new features mods add that TFP refuses to add to vanilla even though they would better the game if they did.

10 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

Lets say ammo scarcity is something the developers want to achieve for a good balance. Even though that is hard to reach, especially since it also has to be balanced between novice players and veterans. While especially in A20 and A21 you were almost buried in ammunition, 1.0 has made a step in the right direction. I always thought that higher difficulty settings should also automatically adjust loot abundance downwards as well. In the mean time, if you feel there is no challenge in getting ammo and other materials then please adjust loot abundance yourself.

 

 

I mean sure but 7dtd is known to be poor at doing math, and lowering loot abundance below 100% can cause most loot containers to end up being empty. even if you set it to 75% it see's anything below 1 as 0 more often than not. No idea if its fixed now, but with TFP taking 3-5 alpha's to fix some long standing bugs I wouldn't be surprized if its still just as buggy.

 

As for ammo, infested quests are a thing, even tier 2 ones can give almost entire stacks of 7.62mm. meanwhile any other ammo source generally has very few rounds in it. Run 2-4 tier 2 infestiation quests and you'll have more ammo than you'll know what to do with for multiple weapon types. I do feel trader costs for ammo needs to be noticably reduced, as the ammo is far to high priced compared to duke income and how many rounds it takes to kill things. Either way even in 1.0 you'll prob never need to craft ammo just due to the infestation quests.

[meganoth]

18 minutes ago, Scyris said:

 

You really need to use mods, Vanilla is a @%$# poor experience in 1.0 and has gone nothing but downhill after a16.4. Its at the point now you basically require mods to have actual proper progression and a mid/late game, not to mention all the new features mods add that TFP refuses to add to vanilla even though they would better the game if they did.

 

I mean sure but 7dtd is known to be poor at doing math, and lowering loot abundance below 100% can cause most loot containers to end up being empty. even if you set it to 75% it see's anything below 1 as 0 more often than not. No idea if its fixed now, but with TFP taking 3-5 alpha's to fix some long standing bugs I wouldn't be surprized if its still just as buggy.

 

As for ammo, infested quests are a thing, even tier 2 ones can give almost entire stacks of 7.62mm. meanwhile any other ammo source generally has very few rounds in it. Run 2-4 tier 2 infestiation quests and you'll have more ammo than you'll know what to do with for multiple weapon types. I do feel trader costs for ammo needs to be noticably reduced, as the ammo is far to high priced compared to duke income and how many rounds it takes to kill things. Either way even in 1.0 you'll prob never need to craft ammo just due to the infestation quests.

 

Logical consequence: infested chests have to be nerfed eventually as well.

[Scyris]

14 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

Logical consequence: infested chests have to be nerfed eventually as well.

 

Well they do need a bit of a nerf to be honest, I am usually not one for calling for nerfs, but they just give way to much ammo, I mean the amount of ammo it gives is fine if it was a tier 5/6 infested, but the fact you get those numbers out of a tier 2 infested quest is the problem. Can just farm them for easy ammo.

[Whorhay]

This game and forum is a hobby gaming interest not a research project, that said every time I can recall balance coming up in the course of reading the forums it's been said that balance for solo was the intention and multiplayer was icing on the cake. If that's not the case so be it, but I have to say that if the intention is to balance for multiplayer that some horrendous mistakes have been in the works for years. For instance quest sharing should have never been a thing, other than maybe letting the party see objectives. I mean why would someone hand out a job to a single person and then pay eight different people the full reward?

 

I think the game could be improved a lot by making ammo much more scarce and harder to craft, though I shudder at the thought of going back to the caliper hunt days. Maybe if ammo was a luxury we could lose the bullet sponge zombies, wouldn't that be nice. Although I guess without significant improvement to the system resource requirements for mobs and mobs of zombies we still might be stuck with bullet sponge zombies for the sake of challenge /sigh.

[BFT2020]

3 hours ago, Whorhay said:

This game and forum is a hobby gaming interest not a research project, that said every time I can recall balance coming up in the course of reading the forums it's been said that balance for solo was the intention and multiplayer was icing on the cake. If that's not the case so be it, but I have to say that if the intention is to balance for multiplayer that some horrendous mistakes have been in the works for years. For instance quest sharing should have never been a thing, other than maybe letting the party see objectives. I mean why would someone hand out a job to a single person and then pay eight different people the full reward?

 

Because the basic premise of this game is a Co-Op player experience.  That is why you have shared quests and shared rewards.  I don't recall anyone from TFP stating that balance of the game was set for solo players, just Co-Op experience.

Edited July 24 by BFT2020 (see edit history)