Intellect has a serious problem.

[Lyote]

Why does Intellect have no dedicated ranged weapon option aside from the late game Junk Turret?

It would be fine if we had some sort of primitive version of the Junk Turret to match the era of Pipe Guns, But we dont. We have to wait until deep into the crafting books to eventually craft the Junk Turret.
With the increase is zombie health, having no gun damage bonuses is just a wierd handicap for just one attribute. 

Half of the offensive capability of the Intellect tree is locked behind a wall of magazine progression whereas all the other attributes have access to Pipe Guns with their Attribute passive benefits providing damage and dismember bonuses for relevant ones on top of the damage bonuses for the specific gun in their list. 

I'm well aware of how strong lategame Intellect can get once you have all the perks, mods and books unlocked. 

What I'm asking is why Intellect has such a handicapped start to the game compared to every other attribute. 

Could we at least get Crossbows split off from Perception/Archery and placed into the Intellect tree as the ranged option for that attribute?
Just add a primitive Crossbow on par with the Primitive Bow and we're golden. 

Feels bad to need to invest deep into another attribute just to be able to use a gun effectively. You'd think the attribute themed about being smart could figure out how to operate a gun. 

tldr,
I am not asking for Intellect to be made even stronger. 
I'm requesting that the tree get rebalanced so you have access to early, weaker versions of what the Intellect tree is dedicated to so as not to be unnecessarily be handicapped compared to other attributes in the early game. And a gun. Why cant the smart guy have a damn gun?! 

[myrkana]

You have the points to get maxed in two trees, start with another one and do intellect second. Intellect excels at the base building aspect.

[Scyris]

The stat system as a whole has a serious problem. It needs to be thrown in the trash, So stupid that weapons and tools are stat locked, they should be learn by doing skills, so your free from stat shackles. You can add the headshot damage to the action skill that the stat provides. This change would make the game so much more playable since your not forced to waste points in a stat you otherwise have no interest in to be viable.

[Lyote]

12 minutes ago, myrkana said:

You have the points to get maxed in two trees, start with another one and do intellect second. Intellect excels at the base building aspect.

2 problems with that statement. 

 No, Intellect is not any better than any other Attribute for building a base. If anything, Strength has the largest advantage for building a base due to easy access to Mining perks. 

And like i said, Lategame Intellect is very strong. But only once you have full access to all of its toys.

The only problem it has is no dedicated ranged option or access to turrets for the early game. That needs fixing because having to wait till the END of your playthrough to start playing Intellect properly is stupid. 
 

[myrkana]

4 minutes ago, Scyris said:

The stat system as a whole has a serious problem. It needs to be thrown in the trash, So stupid that weapons and tools are stat locked, they should be learn by doing skills, so your free from stat shackles. You can add the headshot damage to the action skill that the stat provides. This change would make the game so much more playable since your not forced to waste points in a stat you otherwise have no interest in to be viable.

Why do you even play anymore if all you comment is how you hate every aspect of the game? o.O

[Scyris]

Just now, myrkana said:

Why do you even play anymore if all you comment is how you hate every aspect of the game? o.O

 

I don't hate every aspect, just the poor ones, and the skill system is deff one of the biggest offenders, other offenders include zombies being able to attack while in stagger animations with 0 attack animations, and the zombie rage where they just become sonic all of a sudden after getting hit which results in alot of cheap shots, same for the stagger issue. Also why do the zombies stagger FORWARD towards you when you hit them? if anything it should be stopping their movement or making them stagger back like in pretty much every other zombie game.

 

Nothing like trying to melee a biker, and then he suddendly goes full sprint on you out of no where.

 

Another big issue is the guns, why are they so weak? 7.62mm ammo is listed as 47 damage, so it should do a minimum of that even in a pipe gun. You notice the problems on warrior and up. As players get a magic damage penalty to everything in the game. Later game, you'll have to mag dump multiple magazines with most guns to kill a single radiated zombie due to how insane their health is now and the fact guns have not been rebalanced to match up.

[vedrit]

1 hour ago, Scyris said:

So stupid that weapons and tools are stat locked, they should be learn by doing skills, so your free from stat shackles.

Agreed, but I'm 90% sure we're not going to get that system back. So, we gotta make do with what we get.

[Scyris]

6 minutes ago, vedrit said:

Agreed, but I'm 90% sure we're not going to get that system back. So, we gotta make do with what we get.

 

Yeah I know the devs of this game basically completly ignore what players want these days, the game would have been so much better if they'd listen, but they just do their own thing and don't seem to care what players think or want. It got like this after a16.4 once it hit a17 the game has gone downhill with 1.0 being by far the most downhill, I vastly prefer a21 over 1.0 as its just more fun of a game in a21 than 1.0 is.

 

Also why does v1.0 look like there is some grey dust filter over all the graphics? anyone else notice this or is it just me? it looks kinda.. dusty? washed out? I don't know how to put it correctly but it just looks wrong compared to a21.

Edited June 27 by Scyris (see edit history)

[meganoth]

2 hours ago, Lyote said:

2 problems with that statement. 

 No, Intellect is not any better than any other Attribute for building a base. If anything, Strength has the largest advantage for building a base due to easy access to Mining perks. 

And like i said, Lategame Intellect is very strong. But only once you have full access to all of its toys.

The only problem it has is no dedicated ranged option or access to turrets for the early game. That needs fixing because having to wait till the END of your playthrough to start playing Intellect properly is stupid. 
 

 

 

Int is supposed to be the "hard" starting option, while strength is the novice option. That isn't explained anywhere in the game yet, but TFP has explained this when asked why STR weapons are so strong compared to other trees.

 

With INT you have to realize that it works best when you use weapons from another tree to supplement your weaponry. You don't need to max out the perks for those weapons, because the INT weapons provide a massive boost when used in combination.

 

So my advice: Put 1 or 2 points into the ranged weapon of another tree early in the game and use that, alternatively use any ranged weapon you have ammo for. Optionally you can go higher in the later game or switch between all ranged weapons, to use the various ammo you find effectively. As soon as you have turrets they will boost your combat more than the higher perk levels of the ranged weapon could do.

 

 

Edited June 27 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Lyote]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

 

 

Int is supposed to be the "hard" starting option, while strength is the novice option. That isn't explained anywhere in the game yet, but TFP has explained this when asked why STR weapons are so strong compared to other trees.

 

With INT you have to realize that it works best when you use weapons from another tree to supplement your weaponry. You don't need to max out the perks for those weapons, because the INT weapons provide a massive boost when used in combination.

 

So my advice: Put 1 or 2 points into the ranged weapon of another tree early in the game and use that, alternatively use any ranged weapon you have ammo for. Optionally you can go higher in the later game or switch between all ranged weapons, to use the various ammo you find effectively. As soon as you have turrets they will boost your combat more than the higher perk levels of the ranged weapon could do.

 

 

To get to 2 levels of a gun perk from another tree you have to spend 5 Skill Points. 
For no reason other than "TFP said its the hard mode"

There should be no such thing as a "novice" and "hard" option. It should entirely be playstyle preference with all the trees being equally viable starting picks without essentially taxing you of multiple skill points just to not suck with ranged weapons. 
 
The only thing holding INT back in the early game is lack of a dedicated ranged option. Something ALL other Attributes get. Hell, Agility gets TWO ranged options!
Just give INT its own firearm and you solve that early handicap without adding undue late game power. 
I suggested Crossbow for this because it somewhat fits into the inventor aspect of Intellect. (Nerd lacking the physical dexterity to use a Bow properly, But the crossbows loading mechanisms making it more point and shoot, bypassing the dexterity/strength requirement of the draw)

ANd to address your last bit, Yes, im well aware of how strong turrets get at the late game. 
The problem is, You wont have turrets UNTIL lategame. Junk Turret requires a whopping 51 books (Half of the total books for the skill!) just to craft the T1 version!

Its not the lategame that INT has a problem with, its the early game, where you have no decent ranged option unless you handicap yourself using guns you dont have skills for (Headshot damage from Attribute levels, raw damage from perks for a double whammy of damage penalties)
Giving Crossbows to INT for the early game only brings it up to par with the other attributes without adding any power to the late game. 

[meganoth]

12 minutes ago, Lyote said:

To get to 2 levels of a gun perk from another tree you have to spend 5 Skill Points. 
For no reason other than "TFP said its the hard mode"

 

I know. It is just an option you can take into consideration, an option that could make sense if you want to invest more points into that tree later anyway, or if you want to speed up the ability to craft better guns of that type.

 

 

[theFlu]

6 hours ago, Lyote said:

To get to 2 levels of a gun perk from another tree you have to spend 5 Skill Points. 

Nitpicking, but isn't it 4? Points 2 & 3 of the attribute and the two for the weapon skill - you have 1/10 by default?

 

Given you don't get an int specific weapon until your first stun baton, the start is a little rough. But the game isn't "balanced" to require practically anything, there's no DPS checks or anything, the 20%-30% efficiency you lose from not speccing into weapons isn't stopping you from pulling off anything.

 

I wouldn't complain if they added something for early ranged INT, but it's not like a 20% better pipe pistol isn't still a PoC ... 😛 

[Lyote]

9 hours ago, theFlu said:

Nitpicking, but isn't it 4? Points 2 & 3 of the attribute and the two for the weapon skill - you have 1/10 by default?

 

Given you don't get an int specific weapon until your first stun baton, the start is a little rough. But the game isn't "balanced" to require practically anything, there's no DPS checks or anything, the 20%-30% efficiency you lose from not speccing into weapons isn't stopping you from pulling off anything.

 

I wouldn't complain if they added something for early ranged INT, but it's not like a 20% better pipe pistol isn't still a PoC ... 😛 

No, you're right, it is 4, my bad lol

See, the problem isnt just the loss of 20% damage from the specific gun perk. Its also the loss of the extra 40% headshot damage from the attribute line, Not to mention the dismember chance. 

Less damage dealt per shot is more ammo spent per target. And in the early game, Its not like you can just make more to compensate lol.  
Not to mention that since the reload speed for the pipe guns is ass, made even worse by not having the reload benefit of the perk...

Its just an arbitrary resource and skill point tax for just one attribute. Just give INT its own gun and it falls into line with all the other attributes without changing how strong it is once it has all of its toys. 

[OmegaFerret]

I never see this as a problem. do you not pick up the forgetting elixir to change your stats late game? Start with a weapon stat. then when ready pick up the elixir and change to int later.

Since when as the game actually locked you into your stat points?

[Lyote]

42 minutes ago, OmegaFerret said:

I never see this as a problem. do you not pick up the forgetting elixir to change your stats late game? Start with a weapon stat. then when ready pick up the elixir and change to int later.

Since when as the game actually locked you into your stat points?

So its not a problem that an attribute tree can best be described as:

• Play something else until lategame, then respec
• Put your points into another attribute because the attributes own weapons suck

You dont see how that is an issue?
All the other attributes are really good in the early game. INT is the only one that has these handicaps for no good reason. They should all be equally viable in the early game. 
Especially since the main difference between the attributes is playstyle, not raw power. 
 

[meganoth]

6 hours ago, Lyote said:

So its not a problem that an attribute tree can best be described as:

• Play something else until lategame, then respec
• Put your points into another attribute because the attributes own weapons suck

You dont see how that is an issue?
All the other attributes are really good in the early game. INT is the only one that has these handicaps for no good reason. They should all be equally viable in the early game. 
Especially since the main difference between the attributes is playstyle, not raw power. 
 

 

I have seen the same mechanic (specific classes are good for beginners, some classes are more difficult) in many games, some limit you to the beginner class for the first game, some just mention it in the class description. This is quite normal, just that it is communicated better elsewhere, something we can surely blame TFP for.

 

I have played all classes and I have never had a special problem with INT, i.e. that I was dying more when using INT. I would say the difference between INT and other classes for an experienced player is almost negligible, though I am not in a position to really measure that with certainty as I haven't played INT in single player in the last 2 alphas, only in co-op. A bit of knowledge how to play that class may be necessary, but that is as it should be for a replayable game that you should not know everything after playing for a few hours.

 

Me I am very very glad this class exists, just like AGI with stealth. These are the two classes where at least combat and maybe strategy as well is or can be very different than the other classes, whereas STR, FOR and PER to a lesser degree feel very samey when you have played them multiple times.

 

Note: We are at day 4 of our current co-op game, everyone still has a quality1 pipe rifle and a q1 or 2 melee weapon. And the melee weapon is by far the most important weapon in our arsenal, the damage output of pipe rifles alone is not enough to help you in oh-@%$# situations anyway. Nobody of us has more than 1 point in any ranged weapon, if at all, and with the quality of the pipe weapons it would be a waste of points (the only reason for the one point is magazine find chance really). [EDIT] Two of us already died because they were relying on their pipe rifles to save them by the way.

 

So I would guess it takes at least another week before the INT player might feel any handicap in his ranged arsenal because his pipe rifle is lacking in damage. But I would guess by that time he already might have a pusher turret, and for survivability I would say a well placed pusher turret is at least as good as the 10 or 15% better ranged damage someone else would have with his gun. Especially the poor PER player with his single-shot rifle 😉

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 28 by meganoth (see edit history)

[meganoth]

PS: I think a developer once said here in the forum that they wanted to create a class with weaker combat abilities and the strong points elsewhere with INT. In some previous alphas INT looked even more like a pure support class. Gladly that isn't the case anymore, but if I had to compare then INT is definitely more in line with the medic in counter strike than any other class. When comparing to fantasy RPGs like ad&D or pathfinder I would likely say that INT is the wizard class, less powerful at the start but devastatingly powerful in late game.

 

 

 

Edited June 28 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Slingblade2040]

This is my opinion and how i view it, INT class should be played like you actually have some INT.

 

Lay down spike traps, use hatches, use barb wire to slow down enemies so you can get good headshots with your crap weapons for maximum damage, use molotovs, use pipe bombs. You aren't limited in ways to kill the zombies unless you are limiting how you do it because oh using hatches is cheesy or some other silly rule. 

 

This is a literal all brains no brawn class. It's definitely a tougher class to play with but it has alot of perks like daring Adventurer and others to help it also with how low tier quests can advance you into higher tier ones you can keep doing low level quests to get easy loot, ammo and dukes thanks to daring Adventurer.

 

I think once a restart is needed I'm going to show off how good INT still is.

Edited June 28 by Slingblade2040 (see edit history)

[Kosmic Kerman]

9 hours ago, Lyote said:

So its not a problem that an attribute tree can best be described as:

• Play something else until lategame, then respec
• Put your points into another attribute because the attributes own weapons suck

You dont see how that is an issue?
All the other attributes are really good in the early game. INT is the only one that has these handicaps for no good reason. They should all be equally viable in the early game. 
Especially since the main difference between the attributes is playstyle, not raw power. 
 

No. Why do you feel like you must or can only invest points in one attribute tree? The system seems clearly designed to spread your points. Besides the machine guns, shotguns, and pistols are fine even without any points invested. This playthrough I am playing a spear character but don't care for the rifles and so I have a pipe machine gun, pistol, and bow in my loadout. I only have one point in the machine gun to get more skill books. I've also put some points in strength and intellect to increase skill book drops.

If you only want to put points in one tree that is a challenge you have assumed for yourself. Embrace that playstyle, spread your points, or choose another attribute tree.

 

In terms of all the other trees being "equally viable in the early game" or lacking "handicaps." I'm going to have to disagree.  First of all the pipe weapons are pretty crap. The pipe machine gun is okay for dogs and boars but isn't super amazing against ferals. I've had two wights almost take my lunch and they took about 30 bullets from a pipe machine along with some spear thrusts to kill. Second, not every tree has equally strong weapons. The rifle and knuckles are definitely harder than other options. I personally like the knife but its playstyle won't be for everyone since there is a lot of backpedaling and kiting involved.

[theFlu]

3 hours ago, Slingblade2040 said:

Lay down spike traps, use hatches, use barb wire to slow down enemies so you can get good headshots with your crap weapons for maximum damage, use molotovs, use pipe bombs. You aren't limited in ways to kill the zombies unless you are limiting how you do it because oh using hatches is cheesy or some other silly rule. 

None of that is neither limited to nor improved by INT, though. And the intelligent option is usually to get the biggest gun you can operate .. Don't get me wrong, Int is perfectly fine, but it really doesn't offer much early on.

 

As it seems it's built as a "gadgeteer", so maybe some giving it some weakling gadgets early on.. reusable glue traps in turret form? "Grabber turret"? Root one zed in place while you deal with it or the rest. Sounds weak, but it'd be more than a 20% advantage for pulls up to 5 zeds... then again, nothing will stop other builds from using such things, unless something radically changes in crafting vs spec, or some such. The way the gearing works, INT is kinda in a spot where it Can't have an early niche, if it's going to have a strong, distinct, late one.

Edited June 28 by theFlu (see edit history)

[stample]

30 minutes ago, theFlu said:

None of that is neither limited to nor improved by INT, though. And the intelligent option is usually to get the biggest gun you can operate .. Don't get me wrong, Int is perfectly fine, but it really doesn't offer much early on.

 

As it seems it's built as a "gadgeteer", so maybe some giving it some weakling gadgets early on.. reusable glue traps in turret form? "Grabber turret"? Root one zed in place while you deal with it or the rest. Sounds weak, but it'd be more than a 20% advantage for pulls up to 5 zeds... then again, nothing will stop other builds from using such things, unless something radically changes in crafting vs spec, or some such. The way the gearing works, INT is kinda in a spot where it Can't have an early niche, if it's going to have a strong, distinct, late one.

 

I think we could.  By default anyone can use one turret.  Perks let you use more.  Just reduce that to 0 by default, and the first perk in the line gives +1.  Have to put a point or two in Int and one in the perk line before you can use the Int-specific toys.

[Adam the Waster]

On 6/27/2024 at 3:58 AM, Scyris said:

The stat system as a whole has a serious problem. It needs to be thrown in the trash, So stupid that weapons and tools are stat locked, they should be learn by doing skills, so your free from stat shackles. You can add the headshot damage to the action skill that the stat provides. This change would make the game so much more playable since your not forced to waste points in a stat you otherwise have no interest in to be viable.

Realistically you don't need the perks in order to get better they're just little bonuses some play fruits I don't even level up gun for weapon perks

 

 

 

Shameless plug here. But we also need that tier 3 baton as well 

[theFlu]

2 hours ago, stample said:

Just reduce that to 0 by default, and the first perk in the line gives +1.  Have to put a point or two in Int and one in the perk line before you can use the Int-specific toys.

At first glance, I disliked the idea.. it'd be the only type of item in the game you can't use without points. But I dunno, INT is trying to be different, so it prolly wouldn't hurt all that much. Obtaining the turrets though, that should probably be hard tied to the perks as well; at least I'd be annoyed seeing loot I won't be able to use. But whether it's crafting-only, lootable-only-with-points or just wasted loot for everyone else, it's getting quite distinct.

 

I don't think I hate the concept, but I doubt TFP is willing to build all that for such a special case.

[Maharin]

The weird thing for me when reading through this thread is that I have never focused on a single stat in any game I've played through.  I've always spread my points around and collected benefits as needed, depending on my circumstances in that play through.  Am I alone in this?

[BFT2020]

1 hour ago, Maharin said:

The weird thing for me when reading through this thread is that I have never focused on a single stat in any game I've played through.  I've always spread my points around and collected benefits as needed, depending on my circumstances in that play through.  Am I alone in this?

No to spreading points around

 

 

yes to you being weird 😄