Armor sets bonus are definitely going to need a rework

[Slingblade2040]

So if what I saw on youtube is correct then the armor sets need a massive rework for not just the set bonus but also what kind of bonuses individual pieces give.

 

Just makes no sense at all to wear a full set as opposed to individual pieces and certain individual pieces at that. 

[zztong]

Care to give some examples?

 

I figure I'll look to the Assassin package for daily use and Commando for horde night. Those bonuses all seemed decent at first glance. I also kind of wonder if I might be able to make another configuration (via modding), say Scout, that uses the appearance of the Rogue but has a couple of different bonuses.

Edited June 22 by zztong (see edit history)

[Slingblade2040]

8 hours ago, zztong said:

Care to give some examples?

 

I figure I'll look to the Assassin package for daily use and Commando for horde night. Those bonuses all seemed decent at first glance. I also kind of wonder if I might be able to make another configuration (via modding), say Scout, that uses the appearance of the Rogue but has a couple of different bonuses.

Preacher set gives from 5%-40% critical injury resistance which is already in the Raider set but starts at 20% but only maxes out at 45% which weird considering raider is heavy armor while preacher is light armor.

 

Commando bonus is faster item recovery speed whatever the hell that means but again useless along with not being well explained. 

 

Ranger is reload speed for revolvers and lever action rifles which is just bad.

 

The full biker set gives less Fuel consumption but that's already done on the enforcer gloves which makes using that full set meaningless.

 

The enforcer which to me is a cop just .44 speed and .44 damage but the gloves from commando gives increased damage to all ranged weapons so why limit myself to enforcer set for a bump in reload speed as opposed to being able to use all ranged weapons and their ammos with a boost in damage? 

 

Those are just some examples. You could just get individual pieces, throw on mods and get way more out of them than going for a set bonus. 

 

The assassin build one is kinda great If what the video shows is true that they lose interest in you once you break line of sight. That set bonus is actually great and actually makes getting a full set of tier 6 worth it while the rest leave alot to be desired.

 

Yes I know this is experimental and things will change but I didn't think the sets bonuses were going to be that lack luster. 

[ElCabong]

8 hours ago, zztong said:

Care to give some examples?

 

I figure I'll look to the Assassin package for daily use and Commando for horde night. Those bonuses all seemed decent at first glance. I also kind of wonder if I might be able to make another configuration (via modding), say Scout, that uses the appearance of the Rogue but has a couple of different bonuses.

I'm like you I plan on using the assassin package but with the preacher gloves. Preacher gloves gives a damage bonus. The assassin gloves gives you a minor increase in attack speed using knife or pistol. Right off the bat you have to ask what about the .44 Magnum, the smg, and the desert eagle. Do you lose that advantage when you switch to those better weapons?

 

I think starting out you're better off with the preacher gloves and then switching to the assassin gloves when you're at the high end and being able to be forgotten in the blink of an eye is a great advantage.

People are probably going to mix and match armor to find the deadliest character they can make out of their play style.

[zztong]

Thanks for the examples. It helps to know what you're thinking.

 

1 hour ago, Slingblade2040 said:

The assassin build one is kinda great If what the video shows is true that they lose interest in you once you break line of sight.

 

That's not a new feature. That's been part of the Stealth Perks for many versions. It is a handy part of a technique for dealing with triggers. At the upper levels they can lose track of you pretty quickly and the armor helping with that is certainly appealing.

 

50 minutes ago, ElCabong said:

People are probably going to mix and match armor to find the deadliest character they can make out of their play style.

 

That will be interesting to see.

 

For those who make mods, I suspect shifting bonuses between the armor parts will be possible, assuming these bonuses are expressed in XML. That way you can keep an appearance. If that's really popular, then maybe TFP would consider expanding the system such that the item bonuses become something a player can pick.

Edited June 22 by zztong (see edit history)

[binf_shinana]

I was also surprised to see that, with some exceptions, the skills derived from armor alone are stronger than the set bonuses.
However, what surprised me the most was the high defensive power of primitive armor. Despite being made with just a small amount of wood and grass, it has higher defensive power than the current cloth armor.

In terms of armor bonuses, I think the optimal combination is two pieces of Nerd armor upper body, which increase EXP and provide additional SP, along with any arm armor that increases attack power, and leg armor that increases movement speed.
In the early stages, when the armor penalties cannot be reduced, I think it's a good idea to start by combining cleric clothing with boots that increase movement speed, and then gradually switch to the above.

[zztong]

Of all the bonuses, I think either XP bonuses and chance of an additional skill are out of place or that should be the benefit to a complete set. I think there's definitely going to end up with some popular bonuses and some unpopular bonuses. It seems difficult to support all of the themes equally.

 

I didn't memorize them, but things like bonus Axe damage wasn't going to entice me. Rifles/Revolvers bonus probably wouldn't either.

Edited June 22 by zztong (see edit history)

[zztong]

 

Possible Scout (or maybe Hunter): Light Armor; Rogue Appearance

 

Head Bonus: Reduced Food/Water Use

Outfit Bonus: Increased Sneak Effectiveness

Hands Bonus: Increased Bow Damage

Feet Bonus: Increased Run Speed

Set Bonus: Increased XP Gain

 

The only bonus among all the items that I kind of object to is the "Extra Skill Point Chance." It really depends on how often that pays off. Too frequent and it's too potent. Too infrequent and it is useless. And, if it hits the right payoff then folks will be complaining that the other options don't have it. It seems there's no winning on that one.

[MechanicalLens]

6 minutes ago, zztong said:

 

Possible Scout (or maybe Hunter): Light Armor; Rogue Appearance

 

Head Bonus: Reduced Food/Water Use

Outfit Bonus: Increased Sneak Effectiveness

Hands Bonus: Increased Bow Damage

Feet Bonus: Increased Run Speed

Set Bonus: Increased XP Gain

 

The only bonus among all the items that I kind of object to is the "Extra Skill Point Chance." It really depends on how often that pays off. Too frequent and it's too potent. Too infrequent and it is useless. And, if it hits the right payoff then folks will be complaining that the other options don't have it. It seems there's no winning on that one.

 

It's not a chance at an extra skill point, that was likely a typo. Instead, it's a chance that when you read a magazine, it counts as two.

[zztong]

1 hour ago, MechanicalLens said:

It's not a chance at an extra skill point, that was likely a typo. Instead, it's a chance that when you read a magazine, it counts as two.

 

Oh, thanks for the update. Yes, I was thinking of those point we use to buy Perks, not the books. I'll have to think about that one more deeply.

 

It occurred to me in the shower they kind of missed some opportunities with the Intellect branch: Physician and Mechanic. Nerd has humor value, but doesn't really describe a role which I wonder if that's why I'm not sure I like the item bonuses. I guess with books we're getting into a studious kind of person. Maybe Nerd should be a robotics kind of thing.

 

Update: Just saw the GNS video. I'm loving the 99% Enemy Search Duration from the Assassin set bonus. (Top End) The bonuses along the way to that look really good too. I think that'll put a dent in the way I deal with triggered events.

Edited June 22 by zztong (see edit history)

[BFT2020]

so not yet played with the armor sets and already suggestions on how they should be improved  😆

[MechanicalLens]

41 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

so not yet played with the armor sets and already suggestions on how they should be improved  😆

 

Delay 1.0 for a month. Rework all the outfits, the meta has already been discovered, we're bored with the game already. XD

/j

[elektrohund]

Biggest issue I see are the crafting related bonuses which encourage an annoying cycle of: swap armor -> do task -> swap back. The farmer set is a good example of this. Most players will just us it when doing planting/harvesting and then switch back (and keep it in a box next to the crops for extra conveniance), which doesn't sound fun or interesting to me and kind of ruins the whole point of having different armors really.

[Roland]

It’s funny that people assumed for months that the set bonuses would be so powerful that everyone would use the same set and there would be no diversity. Now that too-high expectations have come down to earth and it appears that mixing and matching will be viable for gameplay people are calling the set bonuses worthless….lol
 

Im sure there will be adjustments as TFP watches what people gravitate towards but a design that makes mixing and matching pieces a competing objective to pure sets is a good thing and doesn’t need much reworking. 
 

if the set bonuses were as OP as what people were expecting then there would be a whole different list of complaints. 

[Adam the Waster]

I do like the armor system some of the effects should be nerfed a bit or get better when you wear the full set. 

 

Like preacher.  The zombie killing bonus should be the full set.  

 

And some armors need reworks on what they are good with. Like commando. Rather then All melee weapons! It's just ARs. Just like the farmer. 

 

Raider buffs clubs or maybe sledge hammers. Not all melee. 

 

Maybe farmer could get a buff to blades or something.  

 

But then we would need more armors for each weapon and build. 

5 minutes ago, Roland said:

It’s funny that people assumed for months that the set bonuses would be so powerful that everyone would use the same set and there would be no diversity. Now that too-high expectations have come down to earth and it appears that mixing and matching will be viable for gameplay people are calling the set bonuses worthless….lol
 

Im sure there will be adjustments as TFP watches what people gravitate towards but a design that makes mixing and matching pieces a competing objective to pure sets is a good thing and doesn’t need much reworking. 
 

if the set bonuses were as OP as what people were expecting then there would be a whole different list of complaints. 

I wouldn't break it down like that. But it was such a big change it scared people.  I even was critical about it until I started warming up to the idea while playing.  

 

Rn its a good start but needs patches here and there. Buffs for some and nerfs for others. I personally can't wait to mess with it 

[Riamus]

38 minutes ago, Roland said:

It’s funny that people assumed for months that the set bonuses would be so powerful that everyone would use the same set and there would be no diversity. Now that too-high expectations have come down to earth and it appears that mixing and matching will be viable for gameplay people are calling the set bonuses worthless….lol
 

Im sure there will be adjustments as TFP watches what people gravitate towards but a design that makes mixing and matching pieces a competing objective to pure sets is a good thing and doesn’t need much reworking. 
 

if the set bonuses were as OP as what people were expecting then there would be a whole different list of complaints. 

And yet what we see is perhaps even worse.  The balance of bonuses is so unbalanced that there are items that are felt to be "required" and others that are felt to be worthless.  Now people will feel like not using specific gear and swapping between jobs will be bad.  Even people who don't min/max or play the meta game will feel like they almost have to swap gear all the time.  When you make bonuses too high, that is what you create.

 

Set bonuses should feel worth more than individual bonuses.  They shouldn't be OP but they should be desirable.  Individual bonuses shouldn't scale up so much. 

 

They really didn't hit the mark for bonuses on armor.  Hopefully that will change as they adjust values.

[BloodDeacon]

Some aspects are absolutely going to need to be rebalanced, but the system is better than I expected when hearing about it initially.  The average set bonus should at most amount to a (quality) bonus from a single piece of armor.  What we absolutely don't need is a scenario where everybody wears cookie-cutter builds for overpowered set bonuses.   That pretty much kills armor systems entirely, and I hope TFP don't listen to the players who argue otherwise. 

 

 

[binf_shinana]

I think the reaction has been so different because there were many comments in the development journal about wanting to set stronger set bonuses.
In reality, clothing skills aren't essential. Even the increase in attack power will be obscured by the bonuses from weapon skill points and equipment mods. The amount of effect is affected by the quality, so it's a value that can be ignored in the early stages.

I'm not really in favor of giving clothing bonuses for things other than combat that are enough to differentiate it and encourage switching equipment (not that I'm against it, as some players like it).

[Razorpony]

Seems like set bonuses and individual item bonuses are two competing systems. Pick one or the other but not both.

[OmegaFerret]

i like the idea that some sets are only going to be used for X purpose.

Want to mix and match thats fine. Each one is going to be a different type of armor so those armor perks arnt going to matter. But i would use say a light armor perk and a good stealth build with a few of these without mixing and matching.

Also I dont like to wear a light armor and a medium armor or a heavy armor. unless they are all one type and my build is to focus on those types.

Do some of the set bonus need an adjustment to be better enticing to actually use. Sure. 

If we kick down each individual bonus and the set bonus can have X perk + increase the bonuses of the rest of the set.

Weakening mixing and matching a bit. Say Each bonus is cut in half if you dont have the set bonus then has an efficiency of 150% if you have the whole set.

[Slingblade2040]

6 hours ago, Roland said:

It’s funny that people assumed for months that the set bonuses would be so powerful that everyone would use the same set and there would be no diversity. Now that too-high expectations have come down to earth and it appears that mixing and matching will be viable for gameplay people are calling the set bonuses worthless….lol
 

Im sure there will be adjustments as TFP watches what people gravitate towards but a design that makes mixing and matching pieces a competing objective to pure sets is a good thing and doesn’t need much reworking. 
 

if the set bonuses were as OP as what people were expecting then there would be a whole different list of complaints. 

People weren't expecting them to be OP but we sure as heck weren't expecting them to be that badly designed. 

 

Having an entire set bonus be useless like the bikers because a single piece of gear gives that same bonus is kinda pointless. 

 

Giving a bonus to a set of gloves that only improves damage for 1 weapon vs others that give the same damage bonus but to all weapons or all mellee weapons or all ranged weapons is also unbalanced and makes the other armor piece useless which then ruins having the set bonus because that set bonus also isn't worth getting.

 

No one is asking for OP bonus sets just set bonuses that make sense and actually make us want to get an entire set as opposed to going with individual pieces.

 

Besides we aren't the ones who hyped up this whole overhaul to the armor/clothing system with these things that's mainly on the pimps side.

[ElCabong]

Every new build has something people don't like. You either come around to like it or work around it. On the whole I'm more excited about the changes even the armor. 

 

I have a pet peeve about the starter armor and my new character tomorrow is going to be named IamGroot

[RantingMonkey]

I'm sure there will be some adjustment but I like the mix and match nature of it right now. I hope they avoid the standard boring route of needing to have the set bonus or you might as well not be wearing armor. 

[stample]

I feel like they just need to balance the values better.

General Rule: More specific bonus = higher % bonus.  More generic = lower % bonus.

Its kind of ridiculous that we get 60% to all damage to zombies on one set of gloves, but another is only the radiated zombies.  Another is 60% to all melee, another 60% to all range, but still others are limited to specific weapon types like rifle or axe.  All of them at 60% means you'd never want to pick anything but the most generic, widely-applied bonus. (Though i wonder, does melee dmg gloves apply to block damage, or is it just entities?)

 

I'm just throwing numbers out now with little thought, but If you're restricting to just axe or .44, 60% is fine, maybe even more.  If its all zombies, I can't see justifying having it above about 30%.  Perhaps 40% for all range/all melee, and 50% for rad zombie bonus.  But they need to vary so you don't have a go-to for everyone.

 

Same with the better barter stuff.  How is one 20% buy/20% sell, but another is 20% on buy only?  Shouldn't you get a bigger bonus if it only affects one half of the transactions?  Another is severely restricted to only buying and only consumables, but is still only 20%?  Why not 40% if its so restricted?

 

Finally, I agree on the set bonuses being too weak.  They shouldn't be super powerful, but keep in mind that to get them you're giving up potentially better piece bonuses on other sets.  So they need to offset that to be desirable.  Having zombie damage to preacher set bonus is a great idea, but rather than moving it (because +dmg is clearly intended to be a 'gloves' bonus) reduce the glove % in line with above guidelines, then make the set bonus an additional stacking %.  Or make it additional rad zombie damage, again stacking with base zombie damage.  Something that gives you a % bonus that moves beyond what you'd get mix-and-matching.  So you can use preacher to specialize in only zombie damage, but be giving up xp boost, etc to get that extra damage not available any other way.

 

Personally, I really dislike xp boost.  That leads to higher levels, more skill points sooner, and reduces the grind you'd have to do any other way.  While I'm not pro-grind, having it, but then making a shortcut past it, is bad itemization.  I hated the nerd glasses before, too.  You don't want to be the person several levels below the rest of your group, because even 5 skill points can be a huge power difference until probably level 70 or 80, when most of your core build stuff is bought.

 

Same goes for extra skill points.  Most of these bonuses are about "get x bonus while wearing".  Skill point gains, you retain that bonus after you've read the magazine and take the clothes off.  You keep it forever.  You're talking about reducing the skill mag grind by as much as 50%, which is absolutely huge in the new learn-by-looting world.  The only other bonuses even close to that are the extra yields, but that's not nearly as big a deal for consumable resources like food and wood that get used up.

 

Maybe i just don't like the idea of "put on my smart clothes to read a magazine", though.  I'd much rather see it as an Int-line perk, than as an armor bonus.

[Bhaaltazar]

Reading through all this bickering, I have a feeling Pimps will just cut bonuses from individual pieces in half or even more, so set bonuses will "sound better".
All this bickering about which pieces are great, just calls for a nerf bat and we haven't even got to play with them.