How to permanently solve the Traders "issue"

[Jost Amman]

Add BARTERING.

 

Traders wouldn't be interested in money in a "real" Apocalypse, they'd be wanting your stuff.

 

• They need replacement parts to fix their own compound and vehicles.
• They need ammo for their weapons
• They need water and food
• They need schematics to craft stuff so they can barter it or use it

 

THIS! makes sense.

 

Money can stay. But more like an accessory to bartering, when you need to compensate for some difference between your bid and the trader's bid on something.

That also means that you won't receive much money from quests anymore, just pocket change beside whatever they give you as a reward.

 

Why this works?

1. Because bartering means you first need to find the "right" stuff to barter with other stuff you need.
2. Exploration beyond a few blocks from the Trader's compound will be worth again.
3. Spamming jobs won't be worth the trouble anymore, since exploring in a wider area will let you find (maybe) that special item the trader wants.

 

The difficult part would be for TFP to create a barter "loot_table" where each trader has preferences and needs for each item.

For each item you would have one (or a list of) item he's willing to trade for the item you need.

 

I think this would add a very interesting new game mechanic and liven up the apocalypse "economy".

What do you think?

[BFT2020]

4 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

Traders wouldn't be interested in money in a "real" Apocalypse, they'd be wanting your stuff.

 

If I was a trader in the Apocalypse, I would prefer to have whatever the new form of currency rather than your junk that you are trying to sell me - If I need to exit an area quickly in an emergency, it would be easier to load up containers of said money than your half built 4X4 truck that I bought from you at a low price and mark it up outrageously to the next person in my area that needs it.

 

Based on the game's markup on sell prices (versus how much they are willing to spend to buy the items from you), it is obviously that the traders we interact in the game are more concern about enriching themselves than bartering.

[Vaeliorin]

As long as the basics (water filters, honey/antibiotics) didn't require bartering specific items, it'd be okay, I guess.  Not sure how it would make questing less op or exploration more incentivized (unless you restricted loot to specific POIs.)

 

Granted, I don't generally buy anything other than filters and recipes/magazines from the traders.

[warmer]

I like parts of this idea.

 

if they had specific items "in demand" that they needed more than others and provided a 150% premium on dukes or something.

 

Considering the lore and Dukes being the casino currency of the bandit leader, I don't think removing that as a currency as coin of the realm makes sense. It's already been established.

[Riamus]

Although bartering can be good in a game, I would really not enjoy having to find something specific to trade for what I want.  This kind of system would make me buy stuff from the trader even less than I already do.  And it would absolutely get me to spam quests even more rather than less.  Instead of buying anything, I would just quest and scavenge instead of spending time trying to find the right thing and then remembering which items to carry with me to buy that thing.

 

And then it makes traveling to other traders even worse because now you don't know what they want to trade for to get what you want and traveling there to find out, only to either go back to base to get the items or spend time scavenging until you find them near that trader.  It just doesn't sound very good to me.

 

And when it comes down to it, bartering without requiring specific items isn't really any different than what we do now.  You can buy stuff with money, but if you are selling as well, then it is like you are bartering.  You are just not doing the buy/sell at the same time.  I could see maybe adding in a UI box for buying and selling at one time like other games do.  Just not requiring a specific item or items to get each specific thing you might want to buy.

Edited April 9 by Riamus (see edit history)

[Syphon583]

I get the idea behind it, but given how looting works in this game, I'm not sure I want yet another thing left up to RNG. If my main avenue for bartering with a trader hinges on the chance that I'm able to find a specific item in a world governed by luck, that could be frustrating. I do want to echo warmer's idea and think having an added feature of in-demand items would bring an extra flavor and realism with traders, but it's more open and optional.

 

Also, unless I'm mistaken, a lot of players' issues with the traders come down specifically to the rewards you get, not the money. Putting so much weight into the rewards you get from questing and reducing the monetary reward just amplifies that issue.

[warmer]

I think this could be an interesting mod that hides the dukes and makes you sell an equal or more duke value in order to buy. That would give the "impression" of bartering. Restricting it to specific items would make the traders a lot less useful for folks. If that is your goal, this would do just that.

[Jost Amman]

2 hours ago, warmer said:

I don't think removing that as a currency as coin of the realm makes sense.

I never said to remove that currency.

I just said to make it just an accessory to bartering.

 

4 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

If I was a trader in the Apocalypse, I would prefer to have whatever the new form of currency rather than your junk that you are trying to sell me

I know this is "reality" so it doesn't have place in a game... but in real life currency only has meaning as long as there's a society (read civilization) to support it.

Quote

Currency value is determined like any other good or service in a market economy – through supply and demand. Factors affecting supply and demand are regulated by the government through monetary and fiscal policy.

There's no government anymore in 7D2D and the Duke can only have very little control over the value of "his" currency.

That's why TFP could make the dukes only have partial value compared to tangible stuff.

 

2 hours ago, warmer said:

if they had specific items "in demand" that they needed more than others and provided a 150% premium on dukes or something.

My idea is more complicated than that actually... I was thinking more like "I'll give you this, for this", not a general "Bring me stuff and then I'll give you whatever you want in return". That wouldn't work. Instead, for each combination of item+trader you'd have a "barter table" with a list of objects they would be willing to trade for that specific item.

 

That's why, if you want something specific, you can't just go around looting "random stuff" and you're set.

You'll need to plan your looting and maybe even need to explore areas you usually don't go to.

 

Example: "I'll tell you what... if you bring me 400 lumps of Oil Shale, I'll give you 200 9mm rounds."  

Edited April 9 by Jost Amman (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

2 hours ago, Riamus said:

Although bartering can be good in a game, I would really not enjoy having to find something specific to trade for what I want. 

This is however, how bartering works in real life too, so... I really don't know what to tell you!  

 

2 hours ago, Riamus said:

Instead of buying anything, I would just quest and scavenge instead of spending time trying to find the right thing and then remembering which items to carry with me to buy that thing.

But that's not necessarily true. If you just go scavenging blindly you will probably get the most common items.

But what if the trader wants something for the item you're interested in, that's not found in your area, or if he want a specific high quantity of something?

You may find yourself just wasting time since you won't know what you really need.

 

2 hours ago, Riamus said:

And when it comes down to it, bartering without requiring specific items isn't really any different than what we do now. 

Indeed. That's why in my idea of bartering you'd need a "barter table" for each item in the game.

 

2 hours ago, Riamus said:

You can buy stuff with money, but if you are selling as well, then it is like you are bartering.  You are just not doing the buy/sell at the same time. 

I'm not sure I understand this... but just to be clear: my idea is that you can only use dukes to offset the perceived value of something you want to trade.

Example: the trader will sell you that nice rifle in exchange for a car engine, or a battery plus X dukes.

 

 

2 hours ago, warmer said:

I think this could be an interesting mod that hides the dukes and makes you sell an equal or more duke value in order to buy. That would give the "impression" of bartering. Restricting it to specific items would make the traders a lot less useful for folks. If that is your goal, this would do just that.

My goal is to make it more difficult to acquire the rarer things from traders, while making every barter need more like a "treasure hunt".  

Basically, every time you really need something in exchange for something else, you'll be creating your own "adventure" to acquire that precious loot!

 

Edited April 9 by Jost Amman (see edit history)

[theFlu]

1 hour ago, Jost Amman said:

That wouldn't work. Instead, for each combination of item+trader you'd have a "barter table" with a list of objects they would be willing to trade for that specific item.

That sounds a little quest-like, not really bartering. If a "barterer" wants Something, it'd make sense he'll accept that something in trade for anything he's willing to part with in the first place. As in, if the guy is hungry, he doesn't care if you want his extra stack of rubber or extra generator, as long as you bring "enough" food.

 

Of course, he might Want a stack of water, a pistol and a car, and be willing to trade wildly different (amounts of) things for each item due to their value. Just wait a day and he'll give better price for the water... ?

 

Wouldn't be a bad idea, at least if it was "integrated" into the world .. one faction is fine with <food>, but requires <ammo>, and some actual lore-wise reasons for the situation.

[warmer]

1 hour ago, Jost Amman said:

My goal is to make it more difficult to acquire the rarer things from traders, while making every barter need more like a "treasure hunt".  

Basically, every time you really need something in exchange for something else, you'll be creating your own "adventure" to acquire that precious loot!

 

This is why it should be a mod and not in game by default. This dramatically changes the use case of a trader and just turns them into a quest giver for the majority of players. I don't see myself using them for bartering if this is implemented in the way you describe. The amount of storage we would need would QUICKLY get out of hand. If you want to play apocalyptic hoarder simulator, this is how you'd do it.

 

I like the idea, but it's too far from the original intent of the trader in my opinion.

[Riamus]

1 hour ago, Jost Amman said:

This is however, how bartering works in real life too, so... I really don't know what to tell you!  

 

But that's not necessarily true. If you just go scavenging blindly you will probably get the most common items.

But what if the trader wants something for the item you're interested in, that's not found in your area, or if he want a specific high quantity of something?

You may find yourself just wasting time since you won't know what you really need.

 

Indeed. That's why in my idea of bartering you'd need a "barter table" for each item in the game.

 

I'm not sure I understand this... but just to be clear: my idea is that you can only use dukes to offset the perceived value of something you want to trade.

Example: the trader will sell you that nice rifle in exchange for a car engine, or a battery plus X dukes.

 

 

My goal is to make it more difficult to acquire the rarer things from traders, while making every barter need more like a "treasure hunt".  

Basically, every time you really need something in exchange for something else, you'll be creating your own "adventure" to acquire that precious loot!

 

Since I'm on my phone, trying to split quotes is a pain, so forgive me for responding to everything below the entire quote Rather than splitting it up.

 

Just because something is realistic didn't make it good gameplay.  And as TheFlu said, in real life, you normally don't have specific items for specific items.  You might have either specific items for any items (number based on value) or any items for specific items (number based on value), but it would be very strange to see specific items for specific items.  After all, if the trader needs an engine, they aren't going to complain that you want a pistol instead of a spear (assuming they were equal value, of course).

 

You make my point about scavenging.  You want me to scavenge for specific items in order to buy something specific.  That can be a nightmare with RNG, depending how common or rare the items are.  On the other hand, I should ignore the trader and just scavenge for what I need without bothering with the cat and mouse barter game.  Much less of a headache.  As TheFlu what mentioned, it just becomes a find me X items quest.  If you want quests like that, there isn't anything wrong with that, but it doesn't really make traders better.

 

So you want dukes to be a specific item as past of a specific purchase?  So I have to still have a specific item combined with dukes to get something?  Styles can't offset the actual value such that if I needed two engines and I brought one plus dukes, it wouldn't count unless there is a specific option for that combination?  That would be really annoying to me.  If I have 20k dukes but can't buy water because that requires me to have 10 dukes plus 2 cloth and I don't have cloth on me.... No thanks.

 

If your goal is just too make rare stuff hard to get from traders, just remove those from traders and have traders only sell common stuff.  Still not my favorite option but I'd prefer that offer this.  Either way, I rarely buy from traders except occasional books (not magazines) and solar stuff, so it wouldn't impact me much at all.  I would just have to scrap everything instead of sell it since I couldn't just sell anything anymore.

[zztong]

A barter system sounds neat and makes more sense to me than some Duke guy who keeps minting new Dukes for me to smelt into brass and cast into bullet casings. Now that I think about it, shouldn't I be able to cast brass into Dukes? 

 

But I worry bartering would impractical to implement unless perhaps it was done in addition to Dukes and as an alternative form of trader quest. That is, the trader keeps a small list of X for Y entries. That sounds vaguely like Minecraft Villagers. 1 Gold Nugget for 5 Fish? Anyone? Anyone?

Edited April 10 by zztong (see edit history)

[8_Hussars]

24 minutes ago, zztong said:

But I worry bartering would impractical to implement unless perhaps it was done in addition to Dukes and as an alternative form of trader quest. That is, the trader keeps a small list of X for Y entries.

I have often thought that barter would be a better way, choose the reward beforehand and have a multi stage trader quest line tailored to it.

 

Want that T6 steel Axe? Then do 4 T4 Clears and a fetch, bring me 6000 iron, 30 aloe seeds, 2 wheels, and kill 100 zombies along the way kind of task.

Obviously it would need to be balanced properly, much like current quests need to be.

[Riamus]

6 minutes ago, 8_Hussars said:

I have often thought that barter would be a better way, choose the reward beforehand and have a multi stage trader quest line tailored to it.

 

Want that T6 steel Axe? Then do 4 T4 Clears and a fetch, bring me 6000 iron, 30 aloe seeds, 2 wheels, and kill 100 zombies along the way kind of task.

Obviously it would need to be balanced properly, much like current quests need to be.

Many games do similar, though we are now talking about question and not bartering.  But I actually like that this game doesn't have non-stop collection quests.  Those are fine but they do get old and can be found in just about every RPG.  Here, the quests are mostly tailored to simply kill, kill, kill.  We do have one collection quest.  I am fine with that.  I wouldn't mind more types of quests but I'd rather see sometime more interesting or even unique instead of the "go-to because we can't think of something better" collection quest. 

 

That said, I would love to see quests where you need to bring X number of resources to the trader to upgrade the trader and/or improve the trader compound from a small starter location to a fancy large compound.  Make it feel like you are doing something to improve the world beyond building your base. 😀

Edited April 10 by Riamus (see edit history)

[Vaeliorin]

52 minutes ago, Riamus said:

That said, I would love to see quests where you need to bring X number of resources to the trader to upgrade the trader and/or improve the trader compound from a small starter location to a fancy large compound.  Make it feel like you are doing something to improve the world beyond building your base. 😀

That would be really cool.  I'd be behind that.  Not so much the axe thing (I'd just use a T6 crafting mod, as those requirements are way too annoying and might eventually require doing T5s which I just have no desire to do.)

[Riamus]

13 minutes ago, Vaeliorin said:

That would be really cool.  I'd be behind that.  Not so much the axe thing (I'd just use a T6 crafting mod, as those requirements are way too annoying and might eventually require doing T5s which I just have no desire to do.)

I like tier 5 POI, but I agree that I wouldn't run a bunch of POI for any item.  I would either just do stuff until I find it, or if it can't be found, I would use a mod or not use the item at all.

[Adam the Waster]

That or a set amount the trader has

[Riamus]

7 minutes ago, Adam the Waster said:

That or a set amount the trader has

Although limiting trader money has is uses, I've never been a fan of it in games.  If I want to sell something rather than hold onto it forever but the trader can't afford what it is worth, then it just sits there forever.

[Old Crow]

2 hours ago, Riamus said:

Although limiting trader money has is uses, I've never been a fan of it in games.  If I want to sell something rather than hold onto it forever but the trader can't afford what it is worth, then it just sits there forever.

 

Not necessarily. I'd often run into this in Fallout New Vegas, and would offset the issue of the trader not having enough caps by also buying things I did needed as well as selling what I had.

 

Realistically, it would make sense for the traders to have a limited amount of Dukes (refreshing when the store stock changes every few days), as I doubt they'd just have an unlimited amount of currency on hand.

[Adam the Waster]

39 minutes ago, Old Crow said:

 

Not necessarily. I'd often run into this in Fallout New Vegas, and would offset the issue of the trader not having enough caps by also buying things I did needed as well as selling what I had.

 

Realistically, it would make sense for the traders to have a limited amount of Dukes (refreshing when the store stock changes every few days), as I doubt they'd just have an unlimited amount of currency on hand.

Money printer 

 

But it would solve issues like near infinite money 

[Riamus]

54 minutes ago, Old Crow said:

 

Not necessarily. I'd often run into this in Fallout New Vegas, and would offset the issue of the trader not having enough caps by also buying things I did needed as well as selling what I had.

 

Realistically, it would make sense for the traders to have a limited amount of Dukes (refreshing when the store stock changes every few days), as I doubt they'd just have an unlimited amount of currency on hand.

Yeah, I know.  But I don't always want something.  I've done this in various Fallout games and others with the similar kind of setup.  It works okay but I often end up just dropping stuff as I go because I can't actually sell it due to limited trader funds.  If the game lets you have unlimited storage, I might store it until/if I can finally sell it or want to buy something to offset the cost, but when unlimited storage isn't available, so much stuff just gets left behind since it can't be sold.  Of course, this game does allow unlimited storage, so I can hold onto stuff as long as needed.  I already deal with only being able to sell a certain number of each item, so I have to hold stuff until I can sell more of the item or I have to travel to other traders to sell more.  Having to also be limited to available money just doesn't sound good to me.  Especially since I rarely buy anything from the traders anyhow, which means not much of any kind of offset available.

[pApA^LeGBa]

I like that idea. Traders are way too OP. The game really needs some sort of trader balancing and this would also lead to a bit more to do hunting for things the traders need.

 

The quest rewards would also need an overhaul though.

 

Did you think about making this into a mod?

Edited April 12 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

57 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

Did you think about making this into a mod?

Not sure if you're referring to my OP or to the other guys's ideas... in any case I'm not a modder. 

[8_Hussars]

On 4/10/2024 at 3:37 PM, Riamus said:

Many games do similar, though we are now talking about question and not bartering.  But I actually like that this game doesn't have non-stop collection quests.  Those are fine but they do get old and can be found in just about every RPG.  Here, the quests are mostly tailored to simply kill, kill, kill.  We do have one collection quest.  I am fine with that.  I wouldn't mind more types of quests but I'd rather see sometime more interesting or even unique instead of the "go-to because we can't think of something better" collection quest. 

 

That said, I would love to see quests where you need to bring X number of resources to the trader to upgrade the trader and/or improve the trader compound from a small starter location to a fancy large compound.  Make it feel like you are doing something to improve the world beyond building your base. 😀

Apparently, the forum ate my original response.

Certainly in the context you provide above, I appreciate it could be the same old same old collection quest.

 

Maybe I was not clear, but I was suggesting longer more complex multi-stage "quests" for a particular reward.  Think of the starter quest were each stage is a set of "quests" (e.g. 3 X Tier 3s) or a large amount of resources, or a small amount of hard to get resources.

As old school boring as they become they would be a change from kill zombies at POI or kill zombies and bring me widget at POI.

I honestly thought the Twitch Integration features would be used to leverage dynamic events into the game, to support advanced questing and random events above and beyond wandering hordes. Perhaps a "go here and defend the survivors" style.