Bring back water jars or let us craft them!

[meganoth]

26 minutes ago, theFlu said:

Indeed; which relates to the reason why I brought up explosives at all. If crafting multiple wooden bows is an issue, limit the availability of bow parts. Fix the crafting logically, instead of making everything use rolls upon of rolls of duct tape held together by duct tape and waterproofed by duct tape. It's a cute post-apocalyptic joke, but please don't take it far enough to have to disable lakes to maintain it ... 😛

 

You propose an alternative solution that would only solve one of the problems TFP tried to fix with the water update. So if they would limit the bow parts or make duct tape less ubiquitous for example they still would not bring back lakes as an unlimited water source.

 

 

[theFlu]

 

37 minutes ago, Ramethzer0 said:

There is plenty of water out there to be looted.

 

I wasn't arguing about difficulty, and I don't think @drgnkght was either; I was arguing about your opposition to the term "artificial scarcity". This is almost literally a textbook example of the term; "buy all the wells in an area, start selling water to the residents at an inflated price". Here the buying of the wells is the disabling of the lakes and the price is you looting or literally working for the trader for coin to buy the water. Just because the price is "low" doesn't make it less of "artificial scarcity".

 

15 minutes ago, meganoth said:

You propose an alternative solution that would only solve one of the problems TFP tried to fix with the water update. So if they would limit the bow parts or make duct tape less ubiquitous for example they still would not bring back lakes as an unlimited water source.

Indeed. I'm proposing to fix the thing logically (ie following real world logic as far possible) and even said early ITT it'd be a lot of work. There's no level of completeness I could propose without actually modding it in that wouldn't be subject to "you didn't fix this part yet". If you're worried about the 3 listed reasons, then here:

3) Don't bring back empty jars when implementing the following

2) Fix crafting by not relying on number of duct tape

1) Turn the current "drinking from lake" into a "take water from a lake" which spawns one of the current item "Murky Water". Turn, or make a copy of, the current "Dew Collector" into a "Water filtering station", have it take murky water as input and produce clean water as output, time limited and trader limited. Change the camp fire recipe for water from clean water into "less toxic water" - so you can survive safely on lake water, but don't really want to.

 

Or, you know, even the requirements are malleable and/or quite poorly met as is; is it Really that important that water survival is a problem when it clearly isn't an issue even now, if just do the Good Boy thing and do some quests?

[pApA^LeGBa]

I mean MM claiming that people could craft unlimited quantities of items isn´t even true with the old system. While bones aren´t hard to get, you never could craft unlimited quanitities or even large quantities easily in early game. That took quite a while until you got enough bones for that.

 

And water still isn´t a survival issue. That "reason" is so pathetic seeing how they throw food at us left, right and center and how easy water is if you play a certain way.

 

 

[Ramethzer0]

38 minutes ago, theFlu said:

 

I wasn't arguing about difficulty, and I don't think @drgnkght was either; I was arguing about your opposition to the term "artificial scarcity". This is almost literally a textbook example of the term; "buy all the wells in an area, start selling water to the residents at an inflated price". Here the buying of the wells is the disabling of the lakes and the price is you looting or literally working for the trader for coin to buy the water. Just because the price is "low" doesn't make it less of "artificial scarcity".

 

I think my opposition to it isn't as academic as all that.  I've largely reacted (at least from an internalized standpoint) the sheer amount of saltposting about it, and this is where I feel my cynicism takes over.  I'm just tired of hearing the same complaint over and over being used in an inflationary way by the same crowd that refuses to accept responsibility for their own contribution to the problem.   I can accept this is not a position you are pushing, but tbh the amount of hackle-raising over the subject at large has me really skeptical, but that's on me.

 

I also REALLY wish we could stick to just one thread, instead of randos just opening a new thread with the same talking points every time, ad nauseum.

[theFlu]

14 minutes ago, Ramethzer0 said:

I'm just tired of hearing the same complaint over and over

I hear ya, I wouldn't read these myself if it wasn't highlighted as annoyingly unread ...  

 

15 minutes ago, Ramethzer0 said:

I also REALLY wish we could stick to just one thread

Would be nice to have all new ones merged into an existing one, for sure - but that can be somewhat annoying as well, depending a little how well the forum SW handles it. More work for the mods thou. New people will always be making new threads, and a couple of new ones were born while typing this sentence ...

[pApA^LeGBa]

@Ramethzer0 I mean what do you expect people to do if they really don´t like something? And on steam, wich i think you are talking about as the last topic on here is from November,  it´s not the only the same people over and over that keep that topic going with new posts until today (merging is happening pretty fast there). Also a lot on steam are on the same page as me wich is we don´t necessarily want the jars back but we don´t want this system wich forces the trader and heavy looting. 

 

I think not even the A17 death penalty had such a negative feedback.

 

 

[Cr0wst0rm]

I wonder why they needed to remove the jars at all... Lack of space in the sprite atlas?

[meganoth]

20 hours ago, theFlu said:

is it Really that important that water survival is a problem when it clearly isn't an issue even now, if just do the Good Boy thing and do some quests?

 

Experienced players here post this all the time, but seem never to be able to grasp that it actually is a problem on par with food and other materials like leather, mechanical parts .... And they also conveniently forget that coop groups, even experienced ones, have a bigger problem with water as well, on par with food

 

Any experienced player will tell you that finding mechanical parts in this game is not a problem. But you still need to do it, it takes time. And if you are not that experienced it takes more time or even gets you killed or you simply don't find enough to build something you need just now.

 

No, water is not supposed to be a central problem in this game, it is just supposed to be an average problem.

 

I am calling myself an experienced player and while I know where to find water when I need it, it IS a resource that I never have enough of in the first days of the game. And when I play in my coop group we also feel a need to concentrate on solving the water problem. Our first money goes to buying as many water filters as we can afford. What are you expecting? Dark Souls?

 

[theFlu]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

I am calling myself an experienced player and while I know where to find water when I need it, it IS a resource that I never have enough of in the first days of the game.

Sure, I'll grant that water is limited in the early game with the current design; but it's not something I can work for. It, like everything else solves itself by doing the Good Boy -loop. You just "don't craft" for a couple days and you're set. It's not an interesting problem, it doesn't change my choice of actions in any way, it's not a "game problem". Now I don't even need to craft my own jars and pot to solve it, it just solves via quest spam.

 

Coops, balancing is its own issue, but coops always have the option to divide into single player groups, so it shouldn't be any harder - if the advantages of group play aren't large enough to feed a base mama, then you can't afford to play in such a way. Don't get me wrong, I think group play should have its own balance, but it's even harder to pin down than solo; and its going to be absolutely impossible if solo is already broken.

 

But this issue is pre-balancing; the crafting system is broken enough to need to limit lake water from being used. Balancing this system will keep both lakes and crafting broken, thus I'm hoping for changes in crafting, not just balancing of this one. I don't think I'll get what I want, realistically; but I'm talking on a forum, so, that should go without saying.

 

 

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

What are you expecting? Dark Souls?

Dark souls is famous for its realism in nutrition... No, I don't want the game to be SCUM either, with several nutrition types needing to be separately filled. Mostly because that is based on a model of nutrition science that doesn't line up with actual reality, you'll do perfectly fine on just beef alone...

 

No, I'm not expecting massively difficult water game play; I'm hoping and proposing a system that

- doesn't break survival realism unless absolutely needed

- introduces "playable" mechanics to solve the issues (ie, going for a "water trip" is different from going to a "gun finding" mission)

- does basic survival things on a level where new players will suffer some ill effects, maybe even straight up death

- AND experienced players will most of the time have to actually DO the survival thing too. Not just skip it via quest spam.

Edited January 16 by theFlu (see edit history)

[BFT2020]

So much passion for an object most people wouldn't look twice at if it was laying on the side of the road.

[pApA^LeGBa]

1 hour ago, BFT2020 said:

So much passion for an object most people wouldn't look twice at if it was laying on the side of the road.

 

I am gonna say it again here, that´s propably because this whole change along with the magazines smells a lot like "We want to the players to do our POI´s and use the trader a lot." 

 

The whole reasoning simply doesn´t add up for the glass jars. And the magazines. Well, that´s another story, not even going to bother, just waiting for a mod for that as i don´t wanna play a bookshelf and mailbox looting simulator with hints of cupboard looting.

 

And tbh instead of trying to make water an issue they should maybe focus more on weather, temperature and food. I mean even in hard survival games water is often a non issue like Subsistence, let alone in a genre mix like for example conan exiles. I can´t remember how it was in Green Hell, but i don´t think thirst was really an issue there aswell.

 

And the fact that SP is still an all you can drink and only MP got hit hard, makes this even worse.

Edited January 16 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Gamida]

This probably makes me a min/maxer. I dunno.

The only problem I have with water (and food) is the constant reminder that I am hungry/thirsty.

I know that stamina and health is tied to your food and water levels. (Food for max amount and water for speed it regens)

I like to have at least my stamina as high as possible as early game especially I have to run around a lot and harvest things like wood, stone, etc.

That takes stamina.

Not I am not sure when the hunger/thirst icons show, how much it affects my stamina. It may not be hurting me much at all. But, the thing is in my mind seeing those icons when I am still at least half or more full

of food and water makes me always want to fill up to get rid of them.

Maybe I wouldn't worry so much about food and water if I never got any sign until I at least hit 25% on them.

This is just my personal opinion. Others will have their own.

 

[theFlu]

1 hour ago, Gamida said:

Not I am not sure when the hunger/thirst icons show, how much it affects my stamina.

My problems with annoying icons went away when I decided to treat it as follows:

1) Your thirst meter basically reduces your sta regen linearly. If it's not full, you're basically losing some already. (This might not be exactly correct, but it's closer to reality than what the warning icons suggest.)

2) You get an extra ~20% regen from having the "recently drank" buff on you. That buff lasts for minutes if you are already at "full thirst". Using a bottle of water whenever I expect to use reasonable amounts of sta, just for the buff, gives me as a side effect a full thirst bar all the time ... no more annoying icons

[Vaeliorin]

1 hour ago, theFlu said:

1) Your thirst meter basically reduces your sta regen linearly. If it's not full, you're basically losing some already. (This might not be exactly correct, but it's closer to reality than what the warning icons suggest.)

The stamina penalties kick in at 75/50/25 percent thirst, if I understand correctly.  The problem is that it doesn't tell you there's a problem until you hit 50%, when you've been suffering a penalty since 75%.  I always try and stay above 75% thirst, but sometimes I don't notice it's gotten below that so I don't realize until I start running out of stamina.

[Rotor]

48 minutes ago, Vaeliorin said:

 I always try and stay above 75% thirst, but sometimes I don't notice it's gotten below that so I don't realize until I start running out of stamina.

 

I run bottom 25% most of the time LOL, unless I am going into a "situation"...or BM.

 

Otherwise, just caps of water no bottles :).

[meganoth]

8 hours ago, theFlu said:

Sure, I'll grant that water is limited in the early game with the current design; but it's not something I can work for. It, like everything else solves itself by doing the Good Boy -loop. You just "don't craft" for a couple days and you're set. It's not an interesting problem, it doesn't change my choice of actions in any way, it's not a "game problem". Now I don't even need to craft my own jars and pot to solve it, it just solves via quest spam.

 

Exactly, **like everything else** (meaning most other crafting materials) it solves itself by looting (or in this case building collectors as an alternative, compare to food which is nearly the same). I would be glad if there was a more interesting problem to solve, crafting 500 jars is not my idea of "more interesting" though.

 

8 hours ago, theFlu said:

Coops, balancing is its own issue, but coops always have the option to divide into single player groups, so it shouldn't be any harder

 

Coop has many advantages that far outweighs that initialy you have some more problems with food and water. Dividing up into single player in this case would mean everyone had to go to a different town and use a different trader to get an advantage from it, not just run to a different POI.

 

 

[theFlu]

5 hours ago, Vaeliorin said:

The stamina penalties kick in at 75/50/25 percent thirst, if I understand correctly. 

Yeh, just did a little test in my test world (old world, patch 21.2 b30), can confirm that 75% & 50% seem correct, 50% having halved your regen. At 50% you also get a small reduction to your Max sta.

 

Kinda just saying, don't aim for "not getting hurt by the lack", more like "Am I going to need sta? => Drink" kind of deal.. helped me Carrying the water in the bottle isn't going to be consuming it any slower than having it in your gut, so unless you plan on getting lit on fire, you should have little reason to wait.

 

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

Dividing up into single player in this case would mean everyone had to go to a different town and use a different trader to get an advantage from it, not just run to a different POI.

Well, my main point was that "balancing a broken system won't help".. but indeed; it might not be a "multiplayer experience to aim for", but it will always be possible (unless they implement some new mechanics to hinder groups from splitting up). If it came down to actually Having to split down to a trader per player for reasonable success, I'd argue the traders need a hefty nerf and the world a buff

 

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

I would be glad if there was a more interesting problem to solve, crafting 500 jars is not my idea of "more interesting" though.

Yeap, we're agreeing on this part.

 

EDIT: "might not BE"

Edited January 17 by theFlu (see edit history)

[Vaeliorin]

47 minutes ago, theFlu said:

Yeh, just did a little test in my test world (old world, patch 21.2 b30), can confirm that 75% & 50% seem correct, 50% having halved your regen. At 50% you also get a small reduction to your Max sta.

 

Kinda just saying, don't aim for "not getting hurt by the lack", more like "Am I going to need sta? => Drink" kind of deal.. helped me Carrying the water in the bottle isn't going to be consuming it any slower than having it in your gut, so unless you plan on getting lit on fire, you should have little reason to wait.

I always carry a stack of food and water on me, since I tend to go through ~300 units of food and water every (2 hour) in game day.  But yeah, I try and keep topped up, I just have a tendency to get distracted and forget to drink until I start running out of stamina.

[zztong]

I do find it interesting the debate of water and jars continues. I choose to take it as confirmation of the oddity of the current design.

 

I've flogged the topic to death, myself, so I'll keep it brief. I don't really think the problem is a lack of jars. They're just an inventory complication. I think the problem is the inability to carry unpurified water away from a water source. You can make it so that you dip your hand into water and extract a jar of water.

 

The awkward part of the current system is rather than find water where you would most likely expect it to be (lakes, rivers, puddles after rain, collectors made by survivors) you find it in the least likely places (ruined buildings, freshly stocked vending machines, and traders without a supporting survivor community).

 

As weird as the situation is. the Vanilla game is quite playable. Still, three cheers for the modlet feature that lets us satisfy our own tastes.

[Adam the Waster]

Again "Read my lips you can't see" 

 

ADD tiers of water collection, 

Dew collectors

And 

Water pump 

 

[FramFramson]

Is nobody gonna try buckets, dangit?! >:[

 

I just want some playtest feedback, lol

[pApA^LeGBa]

22 minutes ago, FramFramson said:

Is nobody gonna try buckets, dangit?! >:[

 

I just want some playtest feedback, lol

 

https://7daystodiemods.com/bang-for-your-bucket-an-alternate-early-game-water-system/

[Kyonshi]

This again?

 

Look, I play without Traders right now. So I have even less possibilities to get water. Can't even have Water Filters! But I go out and explore POIs to get murky water from toilets, coffee/soft drink machines, refrigerators, etc. Mind blowing, right?

 

Exactly how a basic and core design feature of the game should be playerd: explore and loot. I don't get why people are over-thinking this with comments that go deep like we're trying to find a sense to life...

 

I'm not swimming in water bottles, but I'm not overwhelmed with them either and I gotta make choices about what to do with them. I go out looting like, 2 mid-size POIs?, in which you could find murky waters and I usually come out with ten or a dozen of them. This is without a single point in Lucky Looter yet. So, why the big existential chat about this again?

[Rotor]

2 hours ago, Kyonshi said:

 in which you could find murky waters and I usually come out with ten or a dozen of them.

 

Not my experience, but maybe is just the RnGeezus who hates me.

 

I also play no quest, no buy from traders, but I do sell to traders and buy from vending machines.  Because I have been forced to by the change.  I usually do this prior to BM, so as not to use any Jars I may have found during the day.

 

In my case the change forces me to a PoI every day.  I like PoIs and exploring, is why dont quest.  But I like to do it on my own terms, like it used to be.

 

I can give 2 poops about the water jars.  Unless you remove the rivers and lakes from the game world and make all water radioactive then I should be able to carry my pot over yonder, for as long as I want/am able to walk and fill'er up.

 

I play 100% loot no respawn, 60 min days.

 

It irks me, but I play /shrugs.

[Ramethzer0]

On 1/16/2024 at 12:44 AM, pApA^LeGBa said:

@Ramethzer0 I mean what do you expect people to do if they really don´t like something? And on steam, wich i think you are talking about as the last topic on here is from November,  it´s not the only the same people over and over that keep that topic going with new posts until today (merging is happening pretty fast there). Also a lot on steam are on the same page as me wich is we don´t necessarily want the jars back but we don´t want this system wich forces the trader and heavy looting. 

 

I think not even the A17 death penalty had such a negative feedback.

 

 

 

I can tell you right now that this could end up being a long and nuanced topic, one that would need its own thread.

 

I do expect the worst, most of the time.  Because it usually is (against, back to the cynicism I'm also struggling with).  I have nitpicks on standby, but I don't think it's going to move the thread forward in a way I think will be of benefit to anyone.

Edited January 17 by Ramethzer0 (see edit history)