Bring back water jars or let us craft them!

[Jost Amman]

15 hours ago, theFlu said:

19 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

Maybe. But this new water mechanics is at its first iteration, so we can expect some balancing in A22.

Hmm... I don't think it's a case of simple balancing, but what do you have in mind? What would solve it?

I think it depends an whether they want to lean back to real survival or forward even more to the looter-shooter trend.

 

I hope for the former, and in that case my idea of balancing would be to make water and drinks less available from vending machines and the trader, while at the same time making it more frequent to be able to get a filter from the world.

 

I'd even go for a special quest where you can only get a filter as a sort of quest reward (like a 90% chance to find the filter in the water treatment plant, for example).

 

As for water itself, I'd simply make the free hands action on water to give you back a jar of radiated water, and add a more complex way for purifying it.

 

5 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

Also you act like building dew collectors and gathering the parts for it is the pinnacle of survival game play. It´s not. Again to be able to build dew collectors you have to do quests. At the already overpowered trader. The mechanic basically forces you to get OP quest rewards. Buying the filter isn´t really a challenge. Even buying a lot of them isn´t. Thx to the whole trader/quest system beeing so highly unbalanced.

I never said that building dew collector was the "pinnacle" of anything, don't use hyperboles on me to make it look like I'm talking nonsense.

It was you who said build ONE well in UL is sooo much better.

 

I can agree on the fact that traders are currently OP, and I'll tell you even more: traders are the ones that are really unbalancing the game right now and making it sometimes repetitive and "boring", if you fall in that trap. Not water.

 

 

 

P.S.: @Roland I asked ages ago if it could be possible, when mergin posts, to have a new line put between them... please, PLEASE, make this happen!

Edited January 20 by Jost Amman (see edit history)

[pApA^LeGBa]

1 hour ago, Jost Amman said:

I can agree on the fact that traders are currently OP, and I'll tell you even more: traders are the ones that are really unbalancing the game right now and making it sometimes repetitive and "boring", if you fall in that trap. Not water.

 

And hence every system that does rely on the trader can´t be good.  And water does rely on the trader and in case of MP Coop also on quests unless you want a coop game where everyone goes looting on their own. Wich is not the point of playing coop. And even if the trader would be balanced the system would suck because it forces the use of the trader, forcing you into the ecosystem of heavy looting and selling.

 

And no you didn´t say anything about it beeing the pinnacle. I said you act like it is. Small but importnant difference.

 

But the most important thing is that the current system doesn´t achieve two of the three points that madmole said they wanted to achieve. There is no decision between crafting and drinking in early game due to a lot of glue and duct tape in loot (and i am only talking about looting trash here) and getting water early game is still easy af. (In SP that is, but that there is this huge difference between MP and SP is yet another downside for the current system)

 

Like i said, i am not saying we need the UL system and that it´s the only one that´s acceptable. We just need something better than what we have now and while the system from UL isn´t perfect either, it´s way better.

Edited January 20 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[theFlu]

3 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

I think it depends an whether they want to lean back to real survival or forward even more to the looter-shooter trend.

Seems we largely agree on what we'd want; your example of reducing POI water and adding treatment for natural waters would be mostly acceptable to me (with a proper balance ). I just don't think it would be seen as a "rebalancing" by TFP, it'd be a redesign. The big feature changes introduced in A21 (water, books) seem to be in the direction of "quest more, or else", and the introduction of physics-breaking spawn mechanics seem to indicate they're planning for FPS/quest spam to be da wae.

[Rotor]

45 minutes ago, theFlu said:

 in the direction of "quest more, or else", and the introduction of physics-breaking spawn mechanics seem to indicate they're planning for FPS/quest spam to be da wae.

 

I hope not........but I fear such is the trend of games that start sandboxy and then the masses demand "content". ...or be lead into content.

 

As long as some of this stuff doesnt become hard code that you cant get out of it via mods.

 

Maybe this year I will have more time to learn and actually get on with my own vision.

[Stranded_Napkin]

On 1/15/2024 at 1:51 AM, Ramethzer0 said:

 

That's not what I meant and I edited my post for clarification.   What I mean is, that it would take a lot of time and effort to implement from start to finish.   Creating anything new or adapting anything old has the chance to break something in the process.

actually, it would take maybe 30 minutes. It's literally just an addition of a tool in a workstation. I did that @%$# several times over. Now, if they want to make it work where you just have to have a filter in your inventory, that would take a bit more to implement. Still, not as much time as you're suggesting, but longer than adding a tool to a workstation.

Edited January 29 by Crater Creator
bypassing profanity filter (see edit history)

[meganoth]

On 1/20/2024 at 1:23 PM, pApA^LeGBa said:

Look at 99% of all other survival games. Water isn´t an issue there. Not even in the really hard ones.

 

If they want more and harder survival gameplay there is other things they should do.

 

There is no indication they want **harder** gameplay. Or even **more** survival. I would guess this is just polishing the game to remove micro-mamagement without at least some form of gameplay involved.

 

Probably those 99% of survival games without water issues leave out water and the need to drink completely.

And that is probably the choice TFP had as well: Either remove water and thirst as they don't contribute to gameplay, or add a mechanic that makes it into a typical survival item that is somewhat scarce and needs to be collected, like anything else. Actually it is a resource that is almost exactly as scarce or plentiful as food, i.e. veterans complain there is too much of it and new players complain that they don't find enough.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 22 by meganoth (see edit history)

[pApA^LeGBa]

@meganoth The ones i talk about all have water and thirst. And if you look at the reasoning from madmole, wich is linked in this thread, he literally said it´s about survival. It´s the first reason he gave.

 

Second reason was to make crafting in early game harder. Inventory clutter is just reason number 3. And seriously, that´s just minor.

 

Now the new system doesn´t make water a lot harder, just different and a bit slower until you don´t need to care about it, it´s even possible to not use a dew collector. And it also doesn´t prevent me from crafting anything i need early game because glue and duct tape can be found in the trash everywhere. The whole work to implement this and annoying a good part off your playerbase for a that result must be frustrating.

 

And no, the loud minority argument doesn´t count. As gamesparks doesn´t work anymore, they have absolutly no clue if half the playerbase simply mods this out. The fact that just a minority is active here and on steam doesn´t automatically mean the majority is happy with it, especially in a game where modding is that easy. Seeing the disscusion going on and on since release of A21 is, at least for me, a a strong hint that we are not talking about just a minority.

 

This and the magzines are for me still a "play like we want you to and use our POI´s all the time" from TFP. Seeing the post on FB about how this game is the definitive zombie survival sandbox RPG advertising the latest sale seems like a joke. There is no sandbox.

 

I actually don´t care if water gets harder, wich it isn´t. But do not try it like that please.

 

Edited January 23 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[YourMirror]

So...how do YOU know half the playerbase mods it out? Making up stuff doesn't count as argument. But nice try. The vocal minority and their alt account are still just that. A very small portion of the same few people that keep starting threads and convos. You have only your detest of this system. Keep whining about it all you like but stop making stuff up to make a point. It's embarrassing. 

[Arez]

You know, come to think of it...I have more problems finding food than water. 

I've only played A21 and only tried out A16 a few months ago for a few games, but if someone knows of a previous food system that made it easier, please tell me and I'll start a thread about bringing it back.

 

Wait, weren't potato plants more abundant in previous versions? Maybe I'll start with that. 

 

"Bring back the more abundant potato plants".

Hmm. It's a little wordy.

That's just a working title. I might think of something better.

[pApA^LeGBa]

1 hour ago, YourMirror said:

So...how do YOU know half the playerbase mods it out? Making up stuff doesn't count as argument. But nice try. The vocal minority and their alt account are still just that. A very small portion of the same few people that keep starting threads and convos. You have only your detest of this system. Keep whining about it all you like but stop making stuff up to make a point. It's embarrassing. 

 

Please read and comprehend properly, otherwise you will embarrass yourself. I didn´t say that. I said "they have absolutly no clue if half the playerbase simply mods this out." IF is the importnant word here.

 

To make this more clear, they can´t know how many people actually like the new system and they can´t know how many people simply mod it out and never say a word about it here or on steam. That is the point.

 

And the fact that over half a year later people still complain says a lot. I never claimed it´s the vast majority, but it´s certainly more than just a few.

 

They can´t claim it´s just a few loud people because they can´t know that. Saying it´s a loud minority isn´t an argument when you can´t proove it.

Edited January 23 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[meganoth]

5 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

@meganoth The ones i talk about all have water and thirst. And if you look at the reasoning from madmole, wich is linked in this thread, he literally said it´s about survival. It´s the first reason he gave.

 

Second reason was to make crafting in early game harder. Inventory clutter is just reason number 3. And seriously, that´s just minor.

 

Touché. Though we are just guessing whether he ordered them for importance or what reason came first.

 

Could you please list the games you are talking about? I only know a few survival games and all of them have no water (except for buffs) and thirst at all. And I suspect the ones that have water also have a meaningful mechanic so it isn't trivial getting water.

 

5 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

Now the new system doesn´t make water a lot harder, just different and a bit slower until you don´t need to care about it, it´s even possible to not use a dew collector. And it also doesn´t prevent me from crafting anything i need early game because glue and duct tape can be found in the trash everywhere. The whole work to implement this and annoying a good part off your playerbase for a that result must be frustrating.

 

 

Well, I used a lot of words in my previous post to emphasize that the goal seemed not to be to make it "a lot harder" but just on par with other materials, like food, leather ... Madmole calls it "a survival issue". Nothing more, nothing less.

 

I am fully in your camp about the amount of glue and duct tape being too much (together with the totally OP trader) but the balance is heavily skewed to accomodate new players. I have been saying for years that a 50% or 75% loot probability should be part of all difficulty settings above default (and that veteran players can't complain about it being too easy if they don't adjust these settings). And nowadays I would add that the same has to be done for trader stuff (rewards, prices). I think A21.0 had a different balance but like every alpha it starts with a "veteran" balance and gets watered down when all the new players get a chance to play.

 

So let me ask you, are you playing with 50% or 75% loot when you complain that there is no scarcity for you? If not, you should. Sadly, the trader nerf would still need a mod

 

 

5 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

And no, the loud minority argument doesn´t count.

 

Not sure to whom you are talking here. I am not aware I brought that argument, neither can I find any mention of "minority" or "few" anywhere in this thread before you said this.

 

Edited January 23 by meganoth (see edit history)

[pApA^LeGBa]

Subsistence, Green Hell, The Forest, Sons of the Forest, Conan Exiles, The long Dark, Empyrion, Project Zomboid, Raft, Stranded Deep, The Front, Sunkenland, Mediveal Dynasty. I could check my library for more, but those are out of my head where i know for sure they have thirst. And in none of them it´s actually a deep mechanic. It´s collecting and cooking or even simply drinking directly from the source with no downsides.

 

In Project Zomboid it is quite the process getting a stable water supply once the public water supply stops to work and you ran out of drinks you can loot, but even in that game, wich is THE go to game for deep and very near to realistic mechanics, there is plenty of drinks to find early game that will last you pretty long and the sinks still work for a limited time.

 

The loud minority statement was just a preemptive strike as someone always tries to make this an argument.

 

I used to play with less loot, yes. But now that i need to loot my water if i don´t want to be forced to use the trader that´s pretty much impossible unless i spend most of the time doing POI´s and there is also that crafting is now loot and rng related. So i can either use the trader wich i don´t like or play with normal loot. Both kinda sucks.

Edited January 23 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[theFlu]

As my position on "reduced choices" seemed to be poorly understood, I'll flesh it out a little. It might be off topic, sure.

 

Most of my new game starts have been "normal" .. get to a trader, start questing and settle down in a POI near the trader. These go on for 3-5 weeks, until they feel dull, repetitive and I just stop. Either I restart, or go play something else.

 

A good third, if not more, of my games since I started have been "start building on day one, do as little as possible else." Total "Mines of Moria" playthroughs, or just wilderness building..  these usually have lasted for 70-100 hours per, some much past that. It's clearly the style I prefer, it keeps me entertained.

 

A21 neutered that playstyle entirely, by two changes. The books is the bigger one, can't do a Moria with a lvl 1 stone axe. But the water nonsense alone is sufficient to stop me from even trying.

 

So, if I'm arguing against the water change, it might be because it obliterated my favored playstyle choice. Half my time spent in the game, gone. If a choice between "can I drink this water or make glue out of it" is all I got to fill that gap, well, you might see why I'm rather miffed by the idea.

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

Subsistence, Green Hell, The Forest, Sons of the Forest, Conan Exiles, The long Dark, Empyrion, Project Zomboid, Raft, Stranded Deep, The Front, Sunkenland, Mediveal Dynasty. I could check my library for more, but those are out of my head where i know for sure they have thirst. And in none of them it´s actually a deep mechanic. It´s collecting and cooking or even simply drinking directly from the source with no downsides.

 

All games I have never played. No wonder I had the impression water is largely ignored in survival games 😉

 

But again you seem to expect more than promised: Because water is a natural resource that is just used in its natural state and needs to be available from the start you can't easily make some **deep** mechanic with it. In a survival game most of the stuff you handle is either simply found or harvested or dug out or crafted from stuff you found and usually the more you look in the right places the more you find. That's it. And this same simple mechanic is now in 7 days.

 

The real question is: Has any of those games water in almost unlimited quantities easily available or always in immediate reach, but you still need to drink it or you would die?

 

1 hour ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

In Project Zomboid it is quite the process getting a stable water supply once the public water supply stops to work and you ran out of drinks you can loot, but even in that game, wich is THE go to game for deep and very near to realistic mechanics, there is plenty of drinks to find early game that will last you pretty long and the sinks still work for a limited time.

 

Almost the same with 7days. Anyone who knows the game will not die of thirst and will have no problem getting plenty of drinks. And just like in Projekt Zomboid there is a process, in this case involving getting money and building dew collectors to eventually free yourself of the need to find water in loot. Not absolutely trivial like building and filling 500 jars with water, surely less complicated than building the stable water supply in PZ, but something you have to manage.

 

Edited January 23 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Rotor]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

 

Almost the same with 7days. Anyone who knows the game will not die of thirst and will have no problem getting plenty of drinks. And just like in Projekt Zomboid there is a process, in this case involving getting money and building dew collectors to eventually free yourself of the need to find water in loot. Not absolutely trivial like building and filling 500 jars with water, surely less complicated than building the stable water supply in PZ, but something you have to manage.

 

 

So, can we forget the water jars for a minute?

 

Does the bucket mod make it "trivial"? 

[BFT2020]

3 hours ago, Rotor said:

 

So, can we forget the water jars for a minute?

 

Does the bucket mod make it "trivial"? 

 

Any mod to make it easier to get water makes it trivial, unless you purposely make it harder or make it so you have to make a choice to gather the water.

[pApA^LeGBa]

@meganoth It´s not even close with PZ and 7 days. In PZ getting enough to drink in early game is non issue you gotta be absolutly new to survival games and games with looting to not get enough to drink. They are everywhere, you just need to grab them, one loot run and it´s enough for days or even more than a week, it´s the really really late game where the issues start and only if you don´t move out of the starter city ever. And it´s building collectors yes, but i mainly did it to be not dependent on looting, there still were enough shops and homes to loot on the map, and building the collector doesn´t force a certain playstyle unlike the dew collectors in 7 days.  

 

And yes there is games where you always have unlimited water in reach and you need to drink or else you would die.

 

@Rotor I don´t need jars. I just want a better system than this. I don´t give a flying fish if it´s with jars or without. I also don´t care if it get´s harder. Bring it on. More challenge is good.

 

Dew collectors and magazines turned this from sandbox to a looter game. I mean that trend was already there but there was still a choice. Nearly 10 years of saying it´s a sandbox and then this...

Edited January 23 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[meganoth]

13 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

@meganoth It´s not even close with PZ and 7 days. In PZ getting enough to drink in early game is non issue you gotta be absolutly new to survival games and games with looting to not get enough to drink. They are everywhere, you just need to grab them, one loot run and it´s enough for days or even more than a week, it´s the really really late game where the issues start and only if you don´t move out of the starter city ever. And it´s building collectors yes, but i mainly did it to be not dependent on looting, there still were enough shops and homes to loot on the map, and building the collector doesn´t force a certain playstyle unlike the dew collectors in 7 days.

 

Ok, there is a difference, but also some similarities: Not endless water without collectors, just more than in 7days, in 7days one loot run (if that is comparable) would also be enough to have enough water for a few days (if you count all the ways to get water including trader stock). In 7days the problem gets solved early, in PZ you can get away with water collection much longer, but whatever you do, unless you have collectors you will not simply throw away water. Water in loot has, at least for some time, a non-zero value in both games, right?

 

Note: I am not contesting your claim that TFP made it more and more difficult to do any playstyle that involves no looting or no trader. I simply have no answer to that that would help you. My guess is that those alternative playstyles are just not on their list of things to "keep" without modding.

 

13 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

And yes there is games where you always have unlimited water in reach and you need to drink or else you would die.

 

Can you name them? You may be misremembering, you may be forgetting something about those games you think of or unlimited can mean different things to different people.  Even in 7days water jars were not really unlimited in the mathematical sense as you needed resources for the glass. Or it may still be in development and the devs have not polished that part yet. I won't shut up with that claim unless I have a specific example 😉

 

[Rotor]

14 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

@Rotor I don´t need jars. I just want a better system than this. I don´t give a flying fish if it´s with jars or without. I also don´t care if it get´s harder. Bring it on. More challenge is good.

 

 

I am with you on this one.  I just wanted to know what makes a bucket MOD "trivial".  You have to craft bucket, go to water source, collect, bring back to camp, boil, then consume.  Reads like a process to me.

14 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

 

Any mod to make it easier to get water makes it trivial, unless you purposely make it harder or make it so you have to make a choice to gather the water.

 

That is fine, hide the bucket in however many gates DevVille wants.  Atleast at some point you can have a choice go loot PoI or go to the lake and smell the roses while you get a bucket of water.

 

I mean they already did that with the cooking grill.

[BFT2020]

3 hours ago, Rotor said:

That is fine, hide the bucket in however many gates DevVille wants.  Atleast at some point you can have a choice go loot PoI or go to the lake and smell the roses while you get a bucket of water.

 

I mean they already did that with the cooking grill.

 

No doubt, there is always a balancing issue with or without mods.

 

But the current discussion with glass jars is not that the mechanism itself is broken, but that it doesn't support playstyles that are not supported by the TFP development team.  There are easy ways around it, but it seems like the push is that TFP should support every playstyle instead of the player realizing that they might need to do some thing (like mods) to make it work the way they want to.

 

There are mods out there that bring back glass jars, along with the mod for the water buckets for crafting.  There are mods out there that change the dew collectors (to increase stack sizes).  There are mods out there that remove the magazine crafting system and goes back to the perk based system.  We even got mods out there that brought back LBD.

 

Personally, I support if a player wants to stay within 30 feet of their initial spawn point, not have any POIs or traders around.  However, that doesn't mean the game in its vanilla state would support it unless the player makes the effort to modify the vanilla game to their playstyle.

[Rotor]

47 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

Personally, I support if a player wants to stay within 30 feet of their initial spawn point, not have any POIs or traders around.  However, that doesn't mean the game in its vanilla state would support it unless the player makes the effort to modify the vanilla game to their playstyle.

 

Fair enough.  So then the first take of  "to make it more in  line with" has morphed into 'we are changing play styles', or perhaps it was an "unforseen consequences"?

 

So, once again, it is not about the JARs at all.  But is the medium that exposed an underlying issue, whether intended or unintended. 

 

Therefor I think we are back to "It sucks, there is a mod for that"  "It is TFP's game suck it up or make your own"

 

Unless it was an "unforseen consequences" then would it not benefit TFP to make it part of Vanilla?

[zztong]

On 1/23/2024 at 10:42 AM, pApA^LeGBa said:

Subsistence, Green Hell, The Forest, Sons of the Forest, Conan Exiles, The long Dark, Empyrion, Project Zomboid, Raft, Stranded Deep, The Front, Sunkenland, Mediveal Dynasty.

 

I played a lot of Empyrion before switching to 7D2D. I don't remember thirst being part of it, though there was water as a source of oxygen. Am I misremembering? The same was true for Space Engineers, but in Ice form. (Trivia: I don't recall Space Engineers having hunger or thirst, but Medieval Engineers had hunger where recipes that made liquids were treated as food.)

 

I can confirm The Forest, Conan Exiles, The Long Dark, and Raft (yuch) had thirst. I've played Medieval Dynasty but don't really remember it.

 

On 1/23/2024 at 12:35 PM, meganoth said:

The real question is: Has any of those games water in almost unlimited quantities easily available or always in immediate reach, but you still need to drink it or you would die?

 

Yes...

 

In Conan Exiles you must spend the early game in a river valley where there's lots of fresh water. But if you want to migrate to more hostile lands with next tier resources you will have to either continue to run back to the river valley or learn to build a well. You can go out and explore, but you'll need to use your inventory to carry water.

 

I don't recall food or water being a major complication in The Forest, but it also wasn't a huge map and I could always get back to my base and refresh without a lot of complications.

 

In Raft, I found hunger and thirst to be overdone and super frustrating. I played with a group of three other friends and I would dedicate myself to protecting the raft and harvesting food/water while the other three tried to solve the stupid puzzles. (I hated The Raft.)

 

In The Long Dark, you could really struggle and you had to plan. You could choose to hang out in a cabin by a frozen lake with seemingly infinite snow to melt and fish to catch and warmth. You'd be stable, but bored. TLD takes the frozen environment seriously. Sadly, I think it also made the character too fragile and it didn't get wildlife right. But if you want to have to worry about survival, that's important to that game.

 

For the space games, like Empyrion, you are definitely headed to wanting large-scale production of oxygen not just for your space suit, but to put an atmosphere in your ships and bases. In Space Engineers, oxygen can also be fuel. Survival in Empyrion is either super easy or more difficult depending on the starting planet. It kind of depends on if plants can grow where you start as to how much you're going to scramble to live beyond your starting supplies.

 

On 1/23/2024 at 12:35 PM, meganoth said:

But again you seem to expect more than promised: Because water is a natural resource that is just used in its natural state and needs to be available from the start you can't easily make some **deep** mechanic with it.

 

I find survival in 7D2D to be satisfying in terms of play in terms of the quantities it delivers.

 

Where we disagree is the premise of that statement above. I think you CAN easily make deeper mechanics with it, mostly because people forget everything that goes into making tap/potable water. All the parts are present in the game. Consider:

 

The game goes Murky Water > Water > Teas and Pure Mineral Water. Water and above is all "good stuff."

The game assumes either a filter or boiling turns Murky Water into Water.

 

A more complex chain would be:

 

Murky Water (12% dysentery) > Purified Water (3% dysentery) > Potable Water where dysentery only goes away with the Chemistry Station version of making water.

 

An appealing part is the Iron Gut perk becomes more useful.

 

An appealing part to me is it recognizes a realistic continuum of water. It would be many game days to get to potable water, but your survival situation greatly improves with the step to get to Purify Water.

 

The downside is you probably need two tiers of Teas. Maybe Purified Water is 6% dysentery but Teas made with Purified Water are 3%. Then Teas/Smoothies from Potable Water could be the high-end super water.

 

One last thought. To me, those other games provide a reason to worry about water at your base location. in 7D2D, prior to the water change, I'd select base locations to be near a water source. Now with Dew Collectors, location is moot for water. You might as well be across the street from the trader.

Edited January 25 by zztong (see edit history)

[meganoth]

4 hours ago, zztong said:

Yes...

 

In Conan Exiles you must spend the early game in a river valley where there's lots of fresh water. But if you want to migrate to more hostile lands with next tier resources you will have to either continue to run back to the river valley or learn to build a well. You can go out and explore, but you'll need to use your inventory to carry water.

 

I should have included "the whole game through/in all circumstances" in my question. Water in Conan Exiles still seems to be a resource with some value and in limited supply unless you do the dew collector equivalent of building a well. (I assume here that you have to migrate eventually to progress in that game). How difficult is it to build a well in other biomes? Do you need to search for places with water under it or do you just get 20 stones and drop a well anywhere?

 

4 hours ago, zztong said:

I don't recall food or water being a major complication in The Forest, but it also wasn't a huge map and I could always get back to my base and refresh without a lot of complications.

 

That sounds more like it would apply to my criteria, i.e. water as time wasting micro management for realisms sake. Can you take water with you in bottles or do you need to always go back? (In the latter case it would have a minimal function to draw you back to base)

 

4 hours ago, zztong said:

Survival in Empyrion is either super easy or more difficult depending on the starting planet.

 

This sounds like water has or has not value depending on where you start.

4 hours ago, zztong said:

Where we disagree is the premise of that statement above. I think you CAN easily make deeper mechanics with it, mostly because people forget everything that goes into making tap/potable water. All the parts are present in the game. Consider:

 

The game goes Murky Water > Water > Teas and Pure Mineral Water. Water and above is all "good stuff."

The game assumes either a filter or boiling turns Murky Water into Water.

 

A more complex chain would be:

 

Murky Water (12% dysentery) > Purified Water (3% dysentery) > Potable Water where dysentery only goes away with the Chemistry Station version of making water.

 

Not exactly a **deep** mechanic IMO. Just a trivial klick fest where you would do all the steps until you have the best water you can produce, just more micro-management, just like the wooden sticks and sharp stones for arrow production. To be deep and engaging there need to be choices somewhere. 

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

There is water everywhere in conan exiles. You have to actually forget your waterskin to get in any trouble and go to specific areas where there is no water near you that you can drink directly from the source, you can even drink the water from the sulfur sea where you need a mask to breathe. You need a waterskin and you need to remember filling it up. That´s it. There is no need for anything else. Water is nearly everywhere, even in some dungeons. You simply need to fill up your waterskin. That´s literally it. There is a well but i am not quite sure if it´s vanilla. But that´s just a QoL update for builders to stay at home. Players who go out don´t need that at all. And to top it off, there is big chance you can simply go to the next water in time at many spots on the map.

 

Subsistence is the same. Make a canteen and you can fill it up everywhere. Even up in the hills when there is no river or pond. Simply fill it with snow and wait till it is melted.

 

In Raft there is the ocean. It´s literally unlimited. Sure you need to process the water before, but that´s not a deep mechanic either.

 

At this point that´s literally just semantics you are discussing here. You can compare and specify for years here if you want. I think the current system sucks. Big time. Nothing anyone says can change that. It makes no sense, it only makes MP harder and only stops MP from crafting whatever you want early game. It doesn´t reduce the number of items in the game, infact it´s one more item now (that´s a thing in unity, you can only have so much items in your game before inventory lag happens)

 

Having to constantly empty 30 dew collectors in MP isn´t a deep mechanic or anything challenging, it´s simply annoying and thx to the OP trader getting filters isn´t either after a few days. Neither is building them. And if a party of 5 goes questing seperatly (wich isn´t the point of coop just saying that people could) unlimited water is reached as fast as with jars. So the new system actually achvied nothing from what the reasons where besides removing jars. Wich is actually really minor.

 

Along with the magazines this is simply trying to force us to use POI´s as much as they can. And to make the deal sweeter the quest rewards are OP af.

Edited January 25 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

47 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

Having to constantly empty 30 dew collectors in MP isn´t a deep mechanic or anything challenging, it´s simply annoying

Frankly it's comical that every time someone wants to ridicule the current game mechanics they use that argument: "it's annoying".

 

I've seen that used for the Blood Moon hordes, "it's not difficult, after a while it's just annoying".

I've seen it used for looting: "the fact I have to depend on looting to survive it's just annoying".

I've seen it used for the crafting learn mechanics: "having to find 100 books to craft the best gear is... (yeah, you guessed it!) annoying".

I've seen it used for jobs/quests: "quests are sooo repetitive! after a while it becomes annoying having to repeat the same quests over and over!"

 

We get it: you hate, no, even better, you despise! the current water mechanics. It's annoying to you.

 

But... just to play devil's advocate, could you describe an example of a water survival game mechanic implementation that is both exciting to you and that doesn't make water irrelevant? Maybe the developers could use some help on how to make water great again!