How are you supposed to level up crafting at a reasonable pace?

[34thdaydead]

I can't build a compound bow till I have bows 39, and at day 20 I have bows 3. and I have to read one specific book over and over as the only way to increase my leveling on that and unlock those recipes. So at my current pace I should get bows 39 at...day 250? Am I missing something in how this stuff works or is leveled recipe locks terribly balanced? Back when I first played this on console, even with multiplayer I could only get near day 90 without getting bored and walking away from the game for a few months, are all these cool new features like robotics and cars only stuff I can get if I stick out for hundreds of hours of RNG grind to hopefully get enough of the right books?

[meganoth]

1) You are correct about it being terribly balanced at the moment. The worst balance currently is for weapon magazines.

 

2) If you want to find more bow magazines you need to perk into bows (which will increase the chance to find them). Also hitting every gun shop you can find is beneficial (just like it is beneficial to loot hospitals if you are after medical magazines)

 

3) Don't forget that crafting is only one of three sources for almost everything. You can also find better bows in loot and you can buy them at the trader or get them as reward from the trader.

 

[Javabean867]

Are you questing?  Are you perked into bows?  Are you buying skill magazines?  Are you looting all things?

 

What are your other skill books at?  I found mine are all relatively the same, with a slight boost to one's I've perked into.

[Old Crow]

My only wish is that the compound bow was on-par damagewise to the compound crossbow

[RipClaw]

There are a few things to keep in mind with the magazine system if you want to level up quickly. You shouldn't spread your points too thin. Focus on 3-4 perks at a time.

 

There are perks that you should avoid because they will clutter up your loot table. Master Chef, Living of the Land and Physican should be avoided for the time being because you get the magazines anyway. Putting points into Advanced Engineering sounds great on paper but if you want to have magazines for workbenches Lock Picking is the better choice as Advanced Engineering additionally boosts repair tools, traps and electrics which will clutter up your loot table.

 

A great source for books are T1 and T2 residential buildings and offices. There you can often find bookshelves and filing cabinets. And quests of course help immensely as you have the chance to get magazine bundles as a reward.

 

Edited August 4, 2023 by RipClaw (see edit history)

[Gr.o.m.]

8 hours ago, Old Crow said:

My only wish is that the compound bow was on-par damagewise to the compound crossbow

Of corse does that mean, that you also whish to have the rate of fire of the compund bow reduced to that of the crossbow. Or am I wrong?

[Khissi]

So, my granddaughter, bless her competitive soul, came into one of our games a bit later than everyone else so was pretty far behind on the book front.  She got on her minibike and started exploring the map, checking EVERY SINGLE MAILBOX SHE FOUND!  She is now the leader in books and schematics, makes mods for everyone else, is almost my level and at about half my zombie kills but, jeeze... 

 

We had already been playing for about two weeks, her mom and I.  So, no, I do not feel your pain.  I go hunting mailboxes now.

[c2chaos]

Trader Joel will likely carry bows and bow books. Aside from the gun stores, clothing stores are likely places to find bows and bow books too.

[Old Crow]

13 hours ago, Gr.o.m. said:

Of corse does that mean, that you also whish to have the rate of fire of the compund bow reduced to that of the crossbow. Or am I wrong?

No, just the damage. It doesn't need to be 1:1 of course, but a bit of an increase would be nice.

[ElCabong]

On 8/3/2023 at 4:45 PM, 34thdaydead said:

I can't build a compound bow till I have bows 39, and at day 20 I have bows 3. and I have to read one specific book over and over as the only way to increase my leveling on that and unlock those recipes. So at my current pace I should get bows 39 at...day 250? Am I missing something in how this stuff works or is leveled recipe locks terribly balanced? Back when I first played this on console, even with multiplayer I could only get near day 90 without getting bored and walking away from the game for a few months, are all these cool new features like robotics and cars only stuff I can get if I stick out for hundreds of hours of RNG grind to hopefully get enough of the right books?

I would use compound bows too if they only had a scope mod. You're right, it takes too long to read enough books to build them before I get tired of the game and start a new one

[Riamus]

Crossbows should do more damage.  And bows should normally have greater range.  Crossbows should also have armor penetration.  It might be okay having armor penetration without greater overall damage but I still think it needs more damage.  In fact, crossbows could also have greater accuracy (anyone can use a crossbow effectively but that isn't true with a bow).

 

Note that I don't use bows or crossbows so it is possible that crossbows already have armor penetration or that bows already have greater range.  I'm just talking about them in general terms.  😀

Edited August 5, 2023 by Riamus (see edit history)

[Khissi]

I almost always find one to buy long before I can make them at a higher level than I can buy them.  I know they're still working to get it all leveled out so not complaining... well, unless they actually listen to the try-hard macho-masochists that want you naked and weaponless for your entire game.  Seems most weapon magazines are weighted slower, for whatever reason, but as long as I'm able to find something to bash, poke, slice, or shoot them with to buy or as a reward, I'm okay with that.  Still having fun, anyway.

[theFlu]

11 hours ago, Riamus said:

And bows should normally have greater range.

I would imagine a crossbow having way better range IRL, the more power you can put into your projectile, the less it suffers from air resistance etc. And the main selling point of a crossbow is the mechanical loading, using all kinds of leverage to achieve more power.

[Riamus]

4 hours ago, theFlu said:

I would imagine a crossbow having way better range IRL, the more power you can put into your projectile, the less it suffers from air resistance etc. And the main selling point of a crossbow is the mechanical loading, using all kinds of leverage to achieve more power.

You may be right but my understanding, which could absolutely be wrong, is that a good bow can shoot further.  Maybe I should look that up, though.

[Vaeliorin]

Just now, Riamus said:

You may be right but my understanding, which could absolutely be wrong, is that a good bow can shoot further.  Maybe I should look that up, though.

As a former competitive archer, I can tell you that it can't.  A bow will at best do the same as a crossbow at the same draw weight, but crossbows can generally have much higher draw weights (for one thing, you don't have to hold all the draw weight of a crossbow.)  I've known people who shot a bow with a draw over 100 pounds, but not many, and one of them ended up having to start shooting left-handed because their back muscles became so overdeveloped on the one side that it was pulling their spine out of alignment.  Crossbows can be over 200 pounds of draw weight.

 

This is one of the reasons crossbows are easier to use, since the higher draw weight means a flatter trajectory, and thus less having to compensate for arrow drop (much like in game.)

 

In the end, bows and crossbows are pretty much the same mechanically, the crossbow just has "machine assistance" that the bow lacks.

[Riamus]

Well, I did a bit of research, though that didn't mean this is entirely accurate as I don't know how knowledge the people providing details are.

 

With a compound bow vs compound crossbow, the crossbow will have better range.  However, old style English longbows could have accurate range at a greater distance than a one person handheld crossbow but that required someone with a lot of skill with bows.  And accuracy and range decrease with more shots as you get tired of using such a strong draw.

 

As a note, I can't be sure the comparisons for English longbows is comparing against modern crossbows, so that may not be accurate anymore.

 

Anyhow, in terms of gameplay, unless crossbows are considered to be a higher tier bow instead of a separate weapon type, I don't think they should be all out better even if they realistically are.  Each should have some benefits or there is no reason to have bows at all.

Edited August 5, 2023 by Riamus (see edit history)

[OneManStanding]

As already pointed out, perking into bows will help you find more bow magazines and bow parts in loot as you go. But the Traders are also a good source of magazines and seem to refresh everyday - so be sure to check them all as you're out and about.

[Vaeliorin]

1 hour ago, Riamus said:

Anyhow, in terms of gameplay, unless crossbows are considered to be a higher tier bow instead of a separate weapon type, I don't think they should be all out better even if they realistically are.  Each should have some benefits or there is no reason to have bows at all.

In game, they're not all out better.  The bow has a better rate of fire.  The problem is, that the rate of fire is still so low (and fairly realistically so) that it's not really useful against large masses of zombies.  Neither is really a usable end-game weapon outside of stealth and exploding arrows/bolts.  You're certainly not going to have a good time trying to clear Infested Navezgane County Jail with a bow or crossbow and steel arrows/bolts.

[hiemfire]

1 hour ago, Riamus said:

Each should have some benefits or there is no reason to have bows at all.

Bows reload/fire cycle is faster, crossbows can be carried already cocked and ready to fire and are easier to aim but take longer to load. Crossbows doing the same damage per shot in game would actually make them worse than bows one to one due to the classical video game "alpha damage vs damage per second" balance. Think mg vs semi-auto rifle.

[theFlu]

35 minutes ago, Vaeliorin said:

You're certainly not going to have a good time trying to clear Infested Navezgane County Jail with a bow or crossbow and steel arrows/bolts.

Hmm... now that you mention it, that sounds like an interesting challenge. Something like Warrior difficulty, so you don't need a dozen headshots each. Could be fun, might have to try

[Khissi]

 

2 hours ago, Vaeliorin said:

In game, they're not all out better.  The bow has a better rate of fire.  The problem is, that the rate of fire is still so low (and fairly realistically so) that it's not really useful against large masses of zombies.  Neither is really a usable end-game weapon outside of stealth and exploding arrows/bolts.  You're certainly not going to have a good time trying to clear Infested Navezgane County Jail with a bow or crossbow and steel arrows/bolts.

Traders often offer stacks of exploding arrows/bolts as rewards.  I keep those handy for 'Oh S--T' moments in infestations (we're talking large masses of zombies) which I am normally able to sneak quite successfully (not counting the jails... just.. not).  So much fun!!  Anyway, I don't play over Nomad difficulty because I'm totally not masochistic (thankfully not male, either), but, if you build your horde base to make the most use of throwables and such, they are a blast to use and VERY effective.  Just saying...

 

However, if you're already in the Agility line doing bow/stealth, buy the first SMG you find.  Once you actually find/buy one, then put some points into pistols to make best use of it but keep from mucking up your bow magazine drop rate too soon. The SMG is totally a great use for all the 9mm ammo you're finding and putting away and, properly modded, will do some awesome damage.  That means you still have the fun of doing sneak/bows, and you also have something that will save your bacon when things inevitably go sideways.

[Vaeliorin]

1 hour ago, Khissi said:

 

Traders often offer stacks of exploding arrows/bolts as rewards.  I keep those handy for 'Oh S--T' moments in infestations (we're talking large masses of zombies) which I am normally able to sneak quite successfully (not counting the jails... just.. not).  So much fun!!  Anyway, I don't play over Nomad difficulty because I'm totally not masochistic (thankfully not male, either), but, if you build your horde base to make the most use of throwables and such, they are a blast to use and VERY effective.  Just saying...

 

However, if you're already in the Agility line doing bow/stealth, buy the first SMG you find.  Once you actually find/buy one, then put some points into pistols to make best use of it but keep from mucking up your bow magazine drop rate too soon. The SMG is totally a great use for all the 9mm ammo you're finding and putting away and, properly modded, will do some awesome damage.  That means you still have the fun of doing sneak/bows, and you also have something that will save your bacon when things inevitably go sideways.

Yeah, I did the whole bows/SMG thing a couple worlds ago.  Not the exploding arrows (I rarely use explosives or molotovs) but it's something I should probably try some time.

[meganoth]

5 hours ago, Riamus said:

Anyhow, in terms of gameplay, unless crossbows are considered to be a higher tier bow instead of a separate weapon type, I don't think they should be all out better even if they realistically are.  Each should have some benefits or there is no reason to have bows at all.

 

They might be because you learn crafting compound bows before crafting compound crossbows (AFAIK)

[Riamus]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

 

They might be because you learn crafting compound bows before crafting compound crossbows (AFAIK)

If you consider it that way, then "bows" have twice the tiers than any other weapons.

[Stranded_Napkin]

I've found progression to have more to do with HOW you play it. If you spec into the perks for stuff and target book cases, magazine/newspaper stands/machines, mailboxes, workstations, and the magazines the traders will sell you, you can progress exceedingly fast. If you aren't near a town or especially a city, progression can slow to a snail's pace.

 

The system is a work in progress. We all know that. It's basically where the loot system was when they first implemented the lootstage. I will absolutely acknowledge that as unhappy as I was about how that initial stage was, they have absolutely kept their word that it was only the foundation level. If they progress this system in a similar manner, it can work out. I still think that there should be an xp factor to it, a mix of learn by reading and learn by doing. That's just me though. It would give the player more control over how they focus on progressing their character.

 

Also, by learn by doing I think it should be a mix of stuff, not just crafting. Crafting would gain xp till a certain point is reached. Repairing would do similar, but to keep it fair and so that people don't do slight damage and a quick repair repeatedly, it's on the total repaired amount rather than the number of repairs. Maybe throw in another factor like the use of the item or tool to gain another set of xp. Meet these requirements and maybe gain that next level instead of having to find magazines. A way of balancing learn by doing. I'm not outright against learn by reading but the system does make progression almost entirely dependent on your proximity to a city.