Loot makes crafting obsolete.

[DeadElviS]

Why have weapons/armour/tools in loot?

 

I do like the new system of learning by books and the adjustments to crafting etc, however you can pretty much get everything in loot which in itself makes crafting pointless.

 

I have said this for many years now to friends playing the game and I don't see the point in tier 6 items either, why have them in the game at all as a 'special' loot, just make them craftable instead.

 

Even with zero points into lucky looter and loot respawn off and abundance turned down, you will still find all the weapons/armour/tools you will need for the game and the more you progress the more you find.

Personally i think that weapons/armour/tools should be removed from loot and only the parts/items needed for craftng them should be found, this then would make the whole crafting system come to life, then perhaps once you have reached lvl5 in crafting a particular item you would have a rare chance of finding a lvl6 (again i would just add this to the crafting tree).

The looting system is a flaw in itself and it ruins the ethos of crafting, which is a shame as the TFP have created something great.

Edited July 9, 2023 by DeadElviS (see edit history)

[For4ger]

Many players do not like crafting things. Why remove variability? Someone wants to get things by crafting, someone - by loot, or by buying from a merchant.

[8_Hussars]

In general, I find in A21 I can craft better items that I can loot in the magazine trees I specialize in.  In the others magazine trees I rely on looting.  Armor seems to lag behind loot wise.  Maybe it needs balance tweaks but overall the current system seems sandbox enough  to keep crafters and looters happy.

 

[DeadElviS]

5 minutes ago, For4ger said:

Many players do not like crafting things. Why remove variability? Someone wants to get things by crafting, someone - by loot, or by buying from a merchant.

Then why play a game where survival & crafting is pretty much the central core of the game?

[RipClaw]

14 minutes ago, DeadElviS said:

Then why play a game where survival & crafting is pretty much the central core of the game?

Because it isn't. In fact, the developers seem to see looting and exploring more in center of the game than crafting. At least that's my impression and MadMole sees himself as a looter according to an interview on the "Guns, Nerd and Steel" channel.
 

 

Edited July 9, 2023 by RipClaw (see edit history)

[Gazz]

Some of it is RNG but mostly on the item drops. Crafting goes up pretty much as planned because with so many rolls it evens out.

 

For me, I do go out looting whenever I can but ended up crafting a lot of my gear. In A20 I might have crafted 1 or 2 pieces tops.

Crafting is definitely a lot more viable now, especially since you can craft items with 4 mod slots.

 

Eventually looting will get you the final version of your stuff but... given the 4 mod slots a lot of QL5 gear can now be better than QL6 so even that is not a huge difference any more.

And "eventually" is something in the vicinity of lvl 75-90 so that's gonna be a while.

Edited July 9, 2023 by Gazz (see edit history)

[zombiehunter]

I'm in my first playthrough in A21 and I have to say I have had a very different experience.  I've had to craft everything as I haven't found jack squat worth anything in loot and the traders haven't had much to talk about either.  In A20 I wouldn't have to craft much of anything as I either found good stuff or bought it.  At least in this first playthrough I'd say crafting is more viable than it is in A20.  We'll see how it goes in subsequent playthroughs.

[Riamus]

6 hours ago, DeadElviS said:

Why have weapons/armour/tools in loot?

 

I do like the new system of learning by books and the adjustments to crafting etc, however you can pretty much get everything in loot which in itself makes crafting pointless.

 

I have said this for many years now to friends playing the game and I don't see the point in tier 6 items either, why have them in the game at all as a 'special' loot, just make them craftable instead.

 

Even with zero points into lucky looter and loot respawn off and abundance turned down, you will still find all the weapons/armour/tools you will need for the game and the more you progress the more you find.

Personally i think that weapons/armour/tools should be removed from loot and only the parts/items needed for craftng them should be found, this then would make the whole crafting system come to life, then perhaps once you have reached lvl5 in crafting a particular item you would have a rare chance of finding a lvl6 (again i would just add this to the crafting tree).

The looting system is a flaw in itself and it ruins the ethos of crafting, which is a shame as the TFP have created something great.

Crafting is a more viable option in A21 than it was in A20.  It still needs more work to make it used more by players but it is on the right track.  Loot has already been reduced in A21 as well.  Looting is a perfectly valid way to progress and you should absolutely get weapons, tools and armor in loot.  You should never be forced to craft if you don't like to craft.  Crafting is an option and so is looting as well as other options.  Options for players is a good thing.  Limiting player options isn't a good decision.  It also makes zero sense to not find such things in loot.  If you don't want those in loot, you'll end up having to use a mod because there is pretty much zero chance they'll remove weapons, tool and armor from loot.  If they did, the outcry would be multiples greater than the outcry for water.

 

5 hours ago, DeadElviS said:

Then why play a game where survival & crafting is pretty much the central core of the game?

As was mentioned, crafting isn't the central core of the game.  The game has multiple options for the players and most players would say that looting is more what TFP considers to be core even if they don't like that fact.

[Scyris]

On 7/9/2023 at 10:12 AM, 8_Hussars said:

In general, I find in A21 I can craft better items that I can loot in the magazine trees I specialize in.  In the others magazine trees I rely on looting.  Armor seems to lag behind loot wise.  Maybe it needs balance tweaks but overall the current system seems sandbox enough  to keep crafters and looters happy.

 

 

This, I feel this as well, as long as were not factoring in trader quest rewards, as I've seen t2-3 quests giving ql 4 steel tools and weapons. I feel the magazines need something added to them to make them worth getting other than just craft recipe/quality unlocks. Maybe a bonus to entity damage, or block damage or harvest amounts with those items every 5 magazines or so? In most games I play by day 8-9 I usually have a ql 5 steel club from a trader reward, and as I use clubs I almost have my best in slot item super early. There is nothing above steel in vanilla, so it basically dead ends that weapon line early. Only thing better is a ql 6 steel club. Mind you the diff between ql 5 and 6 is actually sort of minor.

On 7/9/2023 at 12:03 PM, zombiehunter said:

I'm in my first playthrough in A21 and I have to say I have had a very different experience.  I've had to craft everything as I haven't found jack squat worth anything in loot and the traders haven't had much to talk about either.  In A20 I wouldn't have to craft much of anything as I either found good stuff or bought it.  At least in this first playthrough I'd say crafting is more viable than it is in A20.  We'll see how it goes in subsequent playthroughs.

 

Traders don't sell anything decent till your char is level 20 or 30+, what trader sells is largly based on character level and a hidden rep system for how many quests you've done for them. Once your level 25+ you'll start to see ql 3-4 guns like pistols, ak's pump shottys showing up. To get around this do quests, t2-3 quests can give ql 4-5 of the same items. Till then I usually craft my stuff as I can craft better stuff than I can loot usually at least in the things I have invested in.

[theFlu]

1 hour ago, Scyris said:

Maybe a bonus to entity damage, or block damage or harvest amounts with those items every 5 magazines or so?

Please don't give them ideas, the tooltips are annoyingly convoluted already

 

Cooking 1/5 (normal game): "You've learned some basic recipes"

Cooking 1/5 (7dtd): "Learn to cook 40% faster. Use 5% less materials. Find 15% more cook books in cabinets, ovens, sinks, toilets. Dew collectors you clear fill 2.5% faster. Gain 12.22% more experience from watching your neighbour's wife cook. Improve faction changes with Rekt 8.99% faster."

 

More serially, I'd still say that the only way to make crafting feel like not a waste of time, is to have some maintenance-style needs. Your guns break and you need skill to fix them; whatever the specific implementation would be, that would keep it relevant. You could also just keep looting to get new gear, so it doesn't need to be "mandatory". The current permanent gear leads at best into a "gather 100 books for a one-and-done event".

Edited July 11, 2023 by theFlu (see edit history)

[Scyris]

Some idea's I've seen passed around was drop only t6 items with modifiers on them, like 5% more move speed, +1 to a stat +damage to a certain weapon type, and the ability to reroll these for a increasing cost that only works if the item had a modifier on it orignally.

[BFT2020]

In my non-modded playthroughs so far, I have seen an equal amount of loot finds and crafting my own equipment. - at least among the perks I perked into.  Non perked perks tend to lag behind, but not too far.  Also note that I tend to stick to the forest biome so I am not boosting my lootstage through harder biomes or with lucky looter.

 

Even perks with only 1 point allocated gave me magazine drops to get up in crafting levels.  I think I had the ability to craft steel tools before I even found them in loot.

[Vampirenostra]

And the beginning of this game was - Minecraft like zombie shooter with learn by doing strategy... No we are coming close to the point where we are going to get rid of destructible world and crafting as is and implement looting is all you can do development strategy.

BTW skill magazines leave a strange aftertaste, in some way they are fine, I mean any way it is a breath of fresh air, but it is still looting all you can, or you'll never craft...

[AtomicUs5000]

I can see the argument of being able to find or buy everything eliminates the need to craft. I probably wouldn't find it completely terrible if weapons and tools were only craftable, and the trader only dealt in parts, but the whole joy of finding something that might have better stats goes away. Sure, you could just apply those random stats to what you've crafted, but now you'll be crafting things as much as possible to get the best stats and that would get old real fast. If the random stats are not applied at all, then you are left with still not crafting something very often.
  
Maybe as an alternative, make the mods only craftable and not lootable and place some durability on those as well. Perhaps similar to what Scyris mentioned, maybe allow those crafted mods to add some modifiers with some arbitrary amount determined by your crafting level just to amp up the importance a tad.

 

2 hours ago, Vampirenostra said:

BTW skill magazines leave a strange aftertaste, in some way they are fine, I mean any way it is a breath of fresh air, but it is still looting all you can, or you'll never craft...

 
It definitely is a strange setup. Loot to craft, but you probably won't need to craft because you looted.

Ideally, what would be the most interesting to me would be that most things can be obtained any way, but some things can only be found, some things can only be purchased, some things are only quest rewards, and some things can only be crafted. Of course these things should carry some weight of importance in the overall gameplay in a nearly equal way. If the game can achieve that, I would personally consider it perfection.

 

 

Edited July 11, 2023 by AtomicUs5000 (see edit history)

[Roland]

1 hour ago, Vampirenostra said:

And the beginning of this game was - Minecraft like zombie shooter with learn by doing strategy...

 

Nice attempt at history rewrite. The beginning of this game had nothing at all to do with learn by doing. Learn by doing didn't show up until Alpha 11 and that was in its most basic rudimentary form. It reached it's height in Alpha 14 and then began to decline when crafting was removed from it in Alpha 15 and then further de-emphasized in A16 when skillpoints were added and then completely gone by A17.

 

So LBD was in only 5 out of 21 alphas and right in the middle of the development arc-- not the beginning.

[Gideon]

It's been a while, but didn't we have a crafting system where you had to expend an item to repair an item that was damaged beyond a certain point? Or am I thinking of another game? Design here has drifted so much I'm not sure of previous iterations any more.

[Scyris]

3 hours ago, Roland said:

 

Nice attempt at history rewrite. The beginning of this game had nothing at all to do with learn by doing. Learn by doing didn't show up until Alpha 11 and that was in its most basic rudimentary form. It reached it's height in Alpha 14 and then began to decline when crafting was removed from it in Alpha 15 and then further de-emphasized in A16 when skillpoints were added and then completely gone by A17.

 

So LBD was in only 5 out of 21 alphas and right in the middle of the development arc-- not the beginning.

 

Still was far better than the junk we have now, many people who have played a16.4 will agree with me on this. Well at least there are mods, imo mods are the main reason older players even still bother with the game. I myself would have prob gave up on it in a17 or 18 if modding wasn't a thing. However just because mods exist is not an excuse to not try. Game needs a tier above steel and some new enemies to fight above what we have in game. Its needed this for a long time now, most mods add this and thats why they are so popular. I mean TFP keeps stea- I mean Borrowing idea's from mods but they don't seem to take the good things, like a progression system that doesn't suck, or new tiers of items/enemies.

 

Like I need to ask as a long time player does tfp even have any damn clue what they want progression to be in the end? because it seems to switch almost every alpha, and the game has gone pretty stagnant due to it. I am aware players have increased but if you ask me, thats due to the better graphics and nothing else. You'd be surprized how many of todays gamers will look at a games graphics and thats their sole deciding factor on buy or pass. Not gonna lie though 7dtd looks fantastic for what it is, the Art team has done a great job, I just wish the rest of the teams would do as good of a job and make this game what it could be. I been around since Alpha 10.4 or so. Its sad to see the state the game is now, it could be so much more but TFP just feels like they got no interest in making it more to me, nor does it feel like they even have any real direction they wanna take it either with how many systems keep being redone over and over.

[Roland]

2 hours ago, Scyris said:

TFP just feels like they got no interest in making it more to me

 

How can one person be told something as many times as you and you still just can't allow it to penetrate into your understanding?

 

I will try one more time.  You are correct that TFP is not interested in making the game more with expansionary updates at this time. All updates are developmental and so involve polishing and reworking the existing base game to get it to the gold version they want to ship. Period.

 

Now deal with it. Stop wondering about how it seems like they don't want to add more expansion to their game. I just told you they don't. There it is. No more speculation is needed.

 

Go play Alpha 16 and be content.

[Vampirenostra]

17 hours ago, Roland said:

 

Nice attempt at history rewrite. The beginning of this game had nothing at all to do with learn by doing. Learn by doing didn't show up until Alpha 11 and that was in its most basic rudimentary form. It reached it's height in Alpha 14 and then began to decline when crafting was removed from it in Alpha 15 and then further de-emphasized in A16 when skillpoints were added and then completely gone by A17.

 

So LBD was in only 5 out of 21 alphas and right in the middle of the development arc-- not the beginning.

I started playing around Alpha 7, so all I saw was that'd mighty decline towards looting ((

[Abusimplea]

Finding craftable stuff in loot and quest rewards is fine. But the best quality should only be craftable.

That way no matter how odd the randomness acts out in your playthrough, you will always at least get a symbolic benefit for maxing a crafting skill.

[Lamblaska]

On 7/9/2023 at 9:46 AM, DeadElviS said:

Why have weapons/armour/tools in loot?

 

I do like the new system of learning by books and the adjustments to crafting etc, however you can pretty much get everything in loot which in itself makes crafting pointless.

 

I have said this for many years now to friends playing the game and I don't see the point in tier 6 items either, why have them in the game at all as a 'special' loot, just make them craftable instead.

 

Even with zero points into lucky looter and loot respawn off and abundance turned down, you will still find all the weapons/armour/tools you will need for the game and the more you progress the more you find.

Personally i think that weapons/armour/tools should be removed from loot and only the parts/items needed for craftng them should be found, this then would make the whole crafting system come to life, then perhaps once you have reached lvl5 in crafting a particular item you would have a rare chance of finding a lvl6 (again i would just add this to the crafting tree).

The looting system is a flaw in itself and it ruins the ethos of crafting, which is a shame as the TFP have created something great.

From a immersion perspective... because they do exist before the apocalypse. You would get inside a shotgun messiah and not find a single usable gun? (with minor exceptions, such as the pipe guns IMO). As other people also stated, not all players focus on craft and there's this idea of having multiple ways of reaching stuff in the game. Through craft or loot. I don't share your point of view and don't agree with what are you proposing. 

But I hear ya, in the late game craft reach its roof (managing base/defenses and no longer useful for gun and equipping). But I think a lot of people suggested other ways to improve the experience. Such as:

1. Improve balance and drop chances (this can push Q6 items even further down the line).
2. Change how skills affects the craft (not only buffing craft time and effectiveness).
3. Tweak traders and quest rewards and available items.

There are many in depth good perspectives and ideas here beyond "Remove something I don't like it from the game". And let's be honest if you don't like it, just scrap the loot and keep the parts, this way you will get EXACLY what you are asking for . In our gaming group we do that with things we don't like "such as the head mod water purifier". 

My honest and personal perspective about that is:

1. It is a post apocalypse game... not in a lifetime you will be able to build some stuff like it was before the apocalypse, because you will always be handling with crapped material, improvised tools and components that will hardly be a match for the schematic you will find. Meaning:
   1. I understand Q6 stuff as pre apocalypse stuff. Things that have been somehow kept in a safe and controlled environment for years. 
   2. Even if you somehow find a schematic for a rifle. Imagine how many specific components you have to find (or find ways to craft it) in order to assemble it as it was specified. The Q1-Q5 means how much you had to improvise to put it in working conditions. That's why I think it's ok for Quality 6 of T2-T3 not be crafted. 
   3. On the other hand... I don't agree with how repair work (from a immersion perspective). A duct tape and a forged iron will repair basically everything T2 or above in game. The same kit will repair your car, your armor and your gun. I think it's ok for items you can craft. But a Q6 weapon should be something really painful to upkeep. And Q6 armor and tools should be somewhat difficult to upkeep.
2. I like how craft is working on A21. But it requires tweaks, a lot of tweaks. There are things we were able to craft much ahead of we were able to find (Guns and armors). But other stuff that worked on the other way around (such as tools). Some craft magazines seem to be much more abundant than others (even with the same focus on skills). But I would suggest:
   1. Remove the whole isolated schematics. They seem out of place. They are not in a book, neither in a craft magazine. It feels disconnected and unpredictable. They can be easily moved with perks (like... gradual book unlock, such as level 3 and 5). If you read 3 archer books you can craft the arrow resting thing. With 5 archer books you can craft the string and so on... shutgun mods with the shotgun books, scopes with sniper books, silencer and noise reducers for armor in stealth books. Pokets in tailoring books and so on. Or even:
   2. Remove the recipes for some mods from the crafting. Make them really rare to find. This would make the extra mods from high quality items less effective and could be used to drive scavenging efforts even further. Or just make then harder to craft (less available materials required to craft). 
3. In a nutshell. I do belive:
   1. Players may have basically 3 ways or improving their gear:
      1. By crafting: That should be the most reliable and predicable way to do some narrowed intended craft. You get the skills for the craft you want, find the magazines, craft and maintain your focused gear. For instance... if you want to do handguns, you will always have a predictable and reliable way to craft and maintain and use handguns effectively. You will be a great handgun shooter because that's what you are invested both in craft and usage.
      2. By scavenging: Unpredictable but rewardable. It demands adaptation. You will likely find items with better quality stuff than you would if you were crafting focusing. But maybe its not the type of weapon you have skill points and maybe you will have to worry about the ammo because you wont have a reliable source of ammo. Y
      3. By trading: Somewhat unpredictable, but flexible. You improve your bartering and rewarding skills you get your dukes, you can choose how to spend it. Sometimes you will need to wait restock or move a lot to find that you are searching for. But you will have options as long as you keep your pockets filled enough. 
   2. In a practical fashion. You will never have any of this ways as the only way. You will blend them according to what you want or know or need. How you mix this will tell you how predictable, reliable and rewarding this could be.
4. The whole randomness is key element of the survival type of game. You can reduce it's effect by adopting a more predictable playstyle... focusing in few skills and aiming your exploring efforts in POIs that are related to what you are focusing. Or you can embraced it and make the most of what you find and adapt to your needs. You are running out of food? Better go check some dinners and kitchens and luckily you will have a decent meal. But reduce the randomness too much and it will be all about doing the right choices.