Dew collector nerf in New update?

[hiemfire]

1 minute ago, Old Crow said:

 

Why should you have to say stupid things?

They're picking fights, ignore them.

[Lasher]

13 minutes ago, meganoth said:

There are so many ways to deal with screamers:

1) Surround your base with 1-2 rows of spike traps, look over them and repair from time to time.

 

2) Make a bigger base and distribute the heat generating items over the range that heat is generated

 

3) Create multiple farms or separate your farms from the main base

 

The mechanic of "heat generation" is similar to activity measurement in other games, it simply is an abstration of how you are active in that area. And zombies visiting you in a zombie game should not be a surprise to you. Zombies are not Zombies-for-hire, you can't say "Hey, the next hour doesn't suit me, please come back another time, or wait, I'll visit you in that POI in a few hours". They game never worked that way and will never in vanilla.

 

 

Sorry meganoth but I really don't think that's the point.

I don't think the issue here is with screamers or with heat generation.

I think the issue that people have with this is that it's yet another sledgehammer nerf bat dumb fix.

 

TFP make introduce dew collectors for water.

Players make multiple dew collectors to solve the water problem.

TFP increase heat on collector to "solve" the problem.

Which it doesn't.

 

It's like the flame traps they introduced.

 

TFP make flame hazards.

Players use flame hazards to kill zombies.

TFP nerf flame damage to zombies (what are they - made of asbestos now?)

 

As I've posted time and time again there just seems to be no thought put into this whatsoever.

It's idiotic - so I'm not surprised that people find fault with it.

 

Maybe, just maybe they might do something about it if people stop defending their stupid decesions.

But I doubt it.

 

 

 

 

[Renathras]

I could understand if there's an advanced Dew Collector/Moisture Farm Condenser (thank you, Tatooine) that uses electricity but generates more water. That might even make sense and be progression into the late game as an item you could build anywhere.

...but a piece of plastic that just catches ambient moisture, uses no electricity, and has no heat source?

This seems to just be them trying to force the "You WILL raid, you WILL quest, and you WILL like it!" on people against their will, which is just stupid. Let people play the damn game the way they want. That was the beauty of this game when I first picked it up a decade-ish ago. You could kind of do what you wanted and play how you wanted. You could loot and raid, or you could bunker up and craft. I was worried when they added Trader quests that they were going to eventually push down this route of it not merely being the optimal way to progress your character (it is) but eventually be the REQUIRED way to progress your character. When they made the zombies able to chew through concrete, steel, and ore with ease, it as already leaning that way. When they made the best items only available by looting and not by crafting (even low tier equipment), it was leaning that way.

But the water and farming and especially skillbook changes seem to be designed just to stick it to people that like the crafting and building aspects of the game to force them into engaging with the questing/looting content, where before players could choose how they wanted to play. Since someone mentioned D&D, it'd be like if the GM insisted everyone play a character that uses magic - or that doesn't - or something instead of letting the players express themselves the way they choose to play the game.

[RipClaw]

5 hours ago, Khalagar said:

I don't get the backlash to this honestly. Yes if you have a big base you will have zombies and screamers show up, that's like, the whole point of the game

The question is how often the screamers spawn. Once an hour, I can live with that, but at the moment it looks like they are spawning every couple of minutes.

3 dew collectors are currently equivalent to a forge in terms of heat generation. I have 12 dew collectors and currently have 2 forges and a chemistry station running.

 

That may seem like a lot to some, but I've had bases with up to 10 forges and 4 chemistry stations running.

 

[Another-Chance]

Caught three coming at the base, two of them walking together. Killed all 3, went into craft and more showed up.

 

Before this new experimental I was doing ok in A21. Now? I run in to throw something onto crafting table and then run out and get far from my base, killing a screamer or two on the way.

 

They also heavily interfere on questing tier 4/5, which was bad but manageable, but now that I can't stay at my base anymore is too much. Will be sitting this one out until fixed.

[theFlu]

8 hours ago, Evil_Geoff said:

I'm going to roll with the "extra water dimension"... 

Probably a good pick, those guys should have plenty of extra jars already from tossing all that water.. (the office chairs "are" leather, but you get more via scrapping vs wrenching, the mechanical part involved scraps into leather I guess .. )

 

Overall, the change is likely nothing more sinister than just "let's add heat to all workstations". Won't really change a thing, or at best require you to drop a couple tactical spikes a couple days earlier in the playthrough. Not a big deal, but makes little sense as "activity"..

[pApA^LeGBa]

Yeah another weird thing in A21. I don´t mind the screamers. We are used to it as we have workstations running constantly and also use quite some torches usually. But dew calling in screamers? Really? That´s some advanced magic stuff going on here.

 

At this point, why not regulary send screamers no matter what. That would at least not be as weird as wetness calling them in somehow.

[pApA^LeGBa]

5 hours ago, Khalagar said:

I don't get the backlash to this honestly. Yes if you have a big base you will have zombies and screamers show up, that's like, the whole point of the game

 

I personally don´t mind the screamers. I can deal with them. It´s the fact that things getting wet call them. That´s some advanced magic right here.

 

At this point they could simply show up regulary no matter if you generate heat or not. That would be way better than water drops calling them....

Edited June 29, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[minisith]

1 hour ago, Old Crow said:

 

Why should you have to say stupid things?

Kinda pointless like your arguments right?  

[minisith]

Almost as weird as players carry a car around.  Or zombie....  

[Survior]

2 hours ago, Renathras said:

This seems to just be them trying to force the "You WILL raid, you WILL quest, and you WILL like it!" on people against their will, which is just stupid. Let people play the damn game the way they want. That was the beauty of this game when I first picked it up a decade-ish ago.

 

This is it EXACTLY, play OUR WAY, this is OUR GAME, and we reserve the right to have a 20 year development cycle, to make sure you don't do anything we don't like!

 

 

[SylenThunder]

Really think about it though. There needs to be a cost. 

 

Just like firing up 20 forges has a cost in generating heat. Or 20 campfires. Or Chem Stations. Or Workbenches churning through ammunition crafting. Or cement mixers as they churn through making mix.

 

Keep your operation small and quiet, and it isn't a problem.  Start mass production on a factory scale, and you're going to make a lot of noise that attracts zeds.

 

All they have done is given the dew collector the same cost as the other crafting stations. Maybe the current level of heat generation is a bit high, but that could be adjusted. 

 

It generates a balance in gameplay mechanics. There needs to be some risk for setting up a field of workstations.

[meganoth]

2 hours ago, Lasher said:

 

Sorry meganoth but I really don't think that's the point.

I don't think the issue here is with screamers or with heat generation.

I think the issue that people have with this is that it's yet another sledgehammer nerf bat dumb fix.

 

TFP make introduce dew collectors for water.

Players make multiple dew collectors to solve the water problem.

TFP increase heat on collector to "solve" the problem.

Which it doesn't.

 

No. That is your interpretation of what happened. For me it looks more logical that they simply forgot to include the heat generation in a few workstations and noticed it suddenly. It isn't even certain that it was noticed with the collectors but likely because currently dew collectors are tested a lot more than the cement mixer. But it is certainly telling that it was added to 3 workstations at the same time.

 

I even think that filled farm plots should also generate a small amount of heat. Did you know that in A15 farms plants were actually targeted by zombies and had to be protected by walls? There is a good chance that TFP eventually does add some "heat cost" to plots, and please remember I said it here. It will not be a reaction and nerf bat to some players having big farms, it will simply be because they want to measure the players "influence and activity" on an area with as much accuracy and as low as possible CPU cycles. And they want NO 100% safe zones. Because of that zombies dig, and workstations are zombie magnets.

 

There has been no problems with dew collectors. But there seems to be a problem with no screamers showing up. In my SP game I am on day 35 and I haven't seen a single screamer. In our group game we are somewhere after second horde night and again, not a single screamer.

 

TFP likes zombies to attack the player, that is one of the central game elements of 7D2D and really any zombie game. If you don't like to be visited by a screamer once in a while I have to wonder why you play a zombie game? TFP probably doesn't know either, they think screamers are fun.

 

2 hours ago, Lasher said:

 

It's like the flame traps they introduced.

 

TFP make flame hazards.

Players use flame hazards to kill zombies.

TFP nerf flame damage to zombies (what are they - made of asbestos now?)

 

I don't know the details, sorrry. But I can imagine that flame traps were simply OP. Were they? They don't seem to need any sort of fuel or upkeep and they don't wear out. Would they kill ferals or even glowies when they walked through? If yes, then they were OP. So they were nerfed, this time actually as a reaction to players using them. Does that make TFP the villain in this piece? I would say it makes them the balance-maker. Balance trumps realism I would say.

 

2 hours ago, Lasher said:

 

As I've posted time and time again there just seems to be no thought put into this whatsoever.

It's idiotic - so I'm not surprised that people find fault with it.

 

Maybe, just maybe they might do something about it if people stop defending their stupid decesions.

But I doubt it.

 

Because it is not a stupid decision. It follows the same design principle they always had: "No place is secure". If you don't like that doesn't mean it is stupid.

Edited June 29, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Zerginfestor]

Oooo, this screams "Don't base build". A21 already got me not even trying to base build in early game, biggest thing I made was a tiny shack to fit a forge, cooking station, 5 small boxes for loot and that's it. It's Day 20, and I just finally began clearing out a small POI to make a base of operations, but reading these notes is putting me off. Like why bother, when you can just make a small farm of yucca to make yucca drinks and just quest continuously without even touching the dew system, and when the blood moon arrives, just hole up in some 2 story PoI house and set up a barricade at the foot and top of the stairs as a dual defense system while throwing molotovs? While I'm sure fun for others, I don't think it's a great idea to harm a large portion of the playerbase with such a mechanic. It's already a bit of an annoyance to set up the water farm, but now MP has to be on red alert 24/7? I'm not sure I want that, and keeping the water in the collectors to stop the heat generation is just baffling to me.  

 

I also severely disagree with @SylenThunder, The cost was already there: you need to meet the requirements of the Dew collector's vertical space to make it operational, and to have the necessary parts, which one you cannot find (at least I never found one) and had to buy it from the traders. Not only that, but 1 wouldn't be enough unless you were using them specifically for Yucca drinks. So you have to make at least 2-3 for minimum saturation of water per day depending on what activities you're doing with your character, and has to be manually checked on every 45 minutes RL to get the maximum out of it. It's already demanding far more than the old ways of getting water, which was just getting jars, finding a water source, press a button, and done. Now having it to be a forge that's on 24/7 as long as it's making water is a bit ridiculous. As I said before, this just throws a wrench in base building even further and gives me a "Why do I bother" feeling. 

[TopAce6]

While i personally like the game on hard mode, some aspects/things just shouldn't have too much added difficulty.

as it is now, this is totally bad for multiplayer groups that share a base together. a few dew collectors worth of heat is 1 thing, but having enough dew collectors for 5-6 people means screamer fest non-stop.

so now some sucker is gonna have to run a few hundred meters away to a dew base, and deal with the screamer hordes to get some water. and since the only non electric traps are the super fragile wood spikes that die in a few hits thats a lot of maintenance time and mats. YOU MUST have water to live, long before you get electricity.

[meganoth]

2 hours ago, RipClaw said:

The question is how often the screamers spawn. Once an hour, I can live with that, but at the moment it looks like they are spawning every couple of minutes.

3 dew collectors are currently equivalent to a forge in terms of heat generation. I have 12 dew collectors and currently have 2 forges and a chemistry station running.

 

That may seem like a lot to some, but I've had bases with up to 10 forges and 4 chemistry stations running.

 

 

That is a valid argument. If they spawn too often for a reasonable setup then it must be adjusted. Maybe the linear scale they are operating with at the moment (i.e. 4 dews produce 4 times the heat of 1 dew) is too much. Since any group of players above 3 would have a similar setup like you now I think the chances are very good that this will get another balancing pass eventually.

 

[RipClaw]

8 minutes ago, meganoth said:

There has been no problems with dew collectors. But there seems to be a problem with no screamers showing up. In my SP game I am on day 35 and I haven't seen a single screamer. In our group game we are somewhere after second horde night and again, not a single screamer.

The problem seems to be that all the screamers are in my game. I can't mine iron for 5 minutes without some stupid screamer spawning and I have to take care of the screamer horde first. This morning I did a quest and had to use my M60 for the end room. As I was leaving the quest POI I was approached by a screamer.

 

In A20 this annoyed me so much that I made a mod to reduce the heat output of iron and I probably will do so for A21 as well.

 

[Laz Man]

3 hours ago, Lasher said:

Yet again - just another pathetic knee-jerk TFP response to problems of their own making.

There doesn't seem to be much thought or planning as to any of the effects of the systems that they introduce these days - it's just throw it at the wall - see what

sticks and if players start to make use of any mechanic find a way to hit it with the most utterly dumb nerf bat you can find.

The result? More knock on effects that require more idiotic "fixes"

I loved this game - I still do - but now I only love the A20-modded-to-hell version to fix all the mechanics that my group hate.

 

I don't really know what's wrong over at TFP - but something certainly is - I don't know if it's laziness, incompetence, bad planning, mis management or just a good old case of "weve already got the money so we just don't care" - maybe a combination of all of them.

As for thier attitude towards anyone who doesn't like it - well I think we've all seen quite clearly how that goes.

 

Good luck with your next game TFP - because if this is how you treat your audience I'd be surprised if anyone touches it with a barge pole.

 

Hey I undeterstand getting upset when you read something you don't like or disagree with but no need with the name calling / toxicity.

 

People asked questions and Faatal and I explained why respectfully and this is the response you give?

 

Edited June 29, 2023 by Laz Man (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

23 minutes ago, meganoth said:

I don't know the details, sorrry. But I can imagine that flame traps were simply OP. Were they? They don't seem to need any sort of fuel or upkeep and they don't wear out. Would they kill ferals or even glowies when they walked through? If yes, then they were OP.

As far as I know, the damage of the fire traps (5 HP per tick) was only half that of that of Molotov cocktails and the zombies only burned for a short time after they went through the fire trap. Not a single zombie was killed by flames. The zombies were not even slowed down.

 

[meganoth]

3 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

As far as I know, the damage of the fire traps (5 HP per tick) was only half that of that of Molotov cocktails and the zombies only burned for a short time after they went through the fire trap. Not a single zombie was killed by flames. The zombies were not even slowed down.

 

 

Ok, not as deadly as I suspected. I didn't even try to touch that flame because I thought that looked like insta-death and I was often enough killed because I walked into my own spike traps 🤪.

 

Still that flame trap has no cost. Can you craft it from day 1? Or do you need creative menue to place it?

 

[fragtzack]

Dew collector generating heat to agro zombie screamers is plain illogical. 

 

I have a solution though for your folks in the meantime:

 

Don't build the dew collectors next to your base.  Build about 15+ squares away. If you  the player are not near the heat generating items, zombies(screamers) won't come. 

 

This idea of putting heat generators away from where the player hangs out is old school technique that TFP still has not "solved".  When I start ramping up large scale cement mixers and forges, tis really easy.. Don't build them in your base or close to base. Sadly seems we need to do the same thing with dew collectors.

 

[Zerginfestor]

1 minute ago, fragtzack said:

Dew collector generating heat to agro zombie screamers is plain illogical. 

 

I have a solution though for your folks in the meantime:

 

Don't build the dew collectors next to your base.  Build about 15+ squares away. If you  the player are not near the heat generating items, zombies(screamers) won't come. 

 

This idea of putting heat generators away from where the player hangs out is old school technique that TFP still has not "solved".  When I start ramping up large scale cement mixers and forges, tis really easy.. Don't build them in your base or close to base. Sadly seems we need to do the same thing with dew collectors.

 

Thank you for the helpful tip! I guess...I'm gonna have to make a small water farm far away from my base. Shame. Despite it's very weird look, I was planning on putting it on the rooftop by the farm/airstrip of my compound, but that looks like that's not happening. 

[RipClaw]

7 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

Ok, not as deadly as I suspected. I didn't even try to touch that flame because I thought that looked like insta-death and I was often enough killed because I walked into my own spike traps 🤪.

As I understand it, it is pretty deadly for players. We are slowed down and get a lot of damage. The zombies are not affected in the same way.

 

7 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Still that flame trap has no cost. Can you craft it from day 1? Or do you need creative menue to place it?

You can not craft it at all. You have to build your base around existing traps in POIs and if they are destroyed you can not replace them.

 

[meganoth]

I am a fan of the spike traps solution. The additonal maintenance work is offset by the satisfaction of hearing another screamer having a bad day at the office 😉

 

 

11 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

As I understand it, it is pretty deadly for players. We are slowed down and get a lot of damage. The zombies are not affected in the same way.

 

You can not craft it at all. You have to build your base around existing traps in POIs and if they are destroyed you can not replace them.

 

 

Ah, okay. I think I would agree with you here, not a nerf that seemed necessary. EDIT: On the other hand adding some blocks to secure the pipe from getting hit isn't that difficult, and it still has no cost at all to it.

Maybe we should ask Faatal, he would probably know the reason.

 

Edited June 29, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Slingblade2040]

1 hour ago, SylenThunder said:

Really think about it though. There needs to be a cost. 

 

Just like firing up 20 forges has a cost in generating heat. Or 20 campfires. Or Chem Stations. Or Workbenches churning through ammunition crafting. Or cement mixers as they churn through making mix.

 

Keep your operation small and quiet, and it isn't a problem.  Start mass production on a factory scale, and you're going to make a lot of noise that attracts zeds.

 

All they have done is given the dew collector the same cost as the other crafting stations. Maybe the current level of heat generation is a bit high, but that could be adjusted. 

 

It generates a balance in gameplay mechanics. There needs to be some risk for setting up a field of workstations.

Ah yes because the 1500 dukes and having to go out and collect the plastic for it wasn't enough they raised it to over 2.2k dukes on top of how slow it is and how the water didn't stack which forced us to mass produce it to meet the high water drain. There is no way to justify this ridiculous nerf.  This is them being bad to us.  This item is a tarp with some stick that collects moisture. This isn't a furnace or if you want to play that silly crafting station card a work station where we have to use tools to pound metals or other items that would generate heat to make something.

 

If they were going to end up doing this BS about factory level mass production then they should have kept the F'in jars in the game since by your logic it causes the same problems since we have to fire up campfires and forges which guess what generate heat and call reason screamers which actually makes sense.

Edited June 29, 2023 by meganoth
flaming (see edit history)