What was the point of the water change?

[zztong]

I recently learned that the jars only seem to disappear. They're actually teleporting to a planet in Starfield and now there's millions of them sitting there. Maybe if the Starfield players get their act together they'll make them teleport back.

[BFT2020]

2 hours ago, Rotor said:

 

Not to nitpick, but if that is the end game, then at some point chest, safes, ranges etc are going to go poof like the  bird nests and jars?

 

Or is it just items that sit outside of PoI that give them problems?  Empty grills going bye bye?

 

Really just wondering, honest question.  

 

I mean, me thinks to is more of making it a gating item, so you can go kiss the traders butt AND give him some dukes.

 

 

 

None of those are item containers, those are loot containers.  So I think you are nitpicking a bit  😉

 

If you stop and think about it, even the loot containers that go poof or turn into an open container that cannot reset with loot respawn on makes sense, as those are typically the containers that most people skip over once they reach a certain part of the game.  The other containers though, still have value as you advance further in the game if the loot respawn option is turned on.  Take feathers for example, once you are past making stone and iron arrows, they don't have any value unless you still need to make a puffer coat.

[Feycat]

Uh, where were you when we had to use bottled water and we're *carrying* meat stew with us and we didn't get a bottle back?

 

Reality isn't part of the game.

[meganoth]

13 hours ago, Rotor said:

 

Not to nitpick, but if that is the end game, then at some point chest, safes, ranges etc are going to go poof like the  bird nests and jars?

 

Or is it just items that sit outside of PoI that give them problems?  Empty grills going bye bye?

 

Really just wondering, honest question.  

 

I mean, me thinks to is more of making it a gating item, so you can go kiss the traders butt AND give him some dukes.

 

 

 

In a perfect world you wouldn't see a "trash pile" everywhere but the actual items thrown away that you could pick up. But that would be an option an AAA developer would choose nowadays because he has the manpower to do it. 

 

Smaller developers, or even AAA developers at a time when PCs didn't have at least 4G of RAM, compromise by just showing trash piles and generic medical bags and generic chemical bags. Or as another example by showing the same thing whenever you eat food. And similar to the real world when you pick up the item the item vanishes from the world. So does the trash bag when you "take" it.

 

Another way to see it: TFP seem to have a design rule that anything that hasn't a purpose isn't shown. An empty loot container has no purpose anymore, except to waste the players time when he tries to loot it again. That is also a good reason why empty safes and chests immediately show that they are empty, visually and even in the popup description. This is bad for immersion and a simulated world, but nobody ever claimed this game is a simulation.

 

[tmo97]

Devs not wanting to deal with empty containers is devs not wanting to recycle, it's like how they make new content that has problems, and then they don't want to deal with the problems, so they just double down. Like the whole realism thing. This is banter, disregard if it makes you queasy.

 

As for the comment above:

Acid in plastic bottle = Acid + plastic bottle

Water in glass jar = Water + glass jar

Murky water in glass jar = Murky water + glass jar

 

I did like the fact that I'm no longer heating generic mason jars directly on a campfire.

I also like the fact that shelves become empty, and that trash just disappears when there's nothing in the trash.

Nightstands popping open and then no longer being usable as chests seems reasonable in context of the contents being overridden by loot respawn.

Bird nests shouldn't contain feathers, they should be made of feathers. Whack them to get the feathers. It would break the eggs, makes sense.

 

Glass jars no longer existing makes me stare at water only to enter a deep arguing contest with myself, trying to find any reasonable immersion-appealing explanation.

Best I could come up with is that the virus is waterborne,

but then that would make you infected if you swam in it with any sort of open wound.

It would make sense that boiling it wouldn't kill the virus, since there's these burnt zombies, unless there's some lore explanation like,

"the zombies are still programmed to act like zombies because that's what the virus does to the body", though then it wouldn't make sense for them to die from fire.

If the virus is waterborne, and it can't be killed by boiling, then murky water shouldn't be found in toilets anymore.

The virus would have to not be airborne for dew collectors to make sense, though they would become infected if any zombie dies nearby enough to splash one droplet.

The virus could also be everywhere in the sense that everybody is already infected, but,

only the undead carry the 'activated' virus that can trigger the virus in a living host to rise up.

 

Distilling the murky water would work, and I'd much rather have a distillery than a dew collector. Dew collectors look ugly, they're only good for one thing.

With distilleries you could make more than just water. Would give an extra purpose to all that corn.

 

Either way, glass jars disappearing, I am not a fan. I'm basically bound to spend the first minimum six hours of gameplay scrounging for workbench books and something to drink. I get that they want it to be more looting focused, but this is negative reinforcement. There's no other way.

 

It looks even worse when you compare the fact that, by the time you have all your desired crafting skills, you've already found way better loot.

 

On top of that, all the antibiotics are gone, and honey is incredibly rare. Once I'm infected, I can just spend 10 days running around for the water I constantly need all the while running past all the rivers and lakes. You can spend literally every hour of every day for 14 days, looking for tree stumps, and find 3, by that time you already need 10 more, and god knows you're not gonna find a way to make herbal antibiotics in the meanwhile. I'm talking loot abundance 300%. Three jars of honey, constant travel, constant looting, no herbal antibiotics, no regular antibiotics, level 4 in looting perks, no dew collector, and I've played this game since Alpha 12 - I know what I'm doing. If you spawn far away from a city and you get infected, you are boned.

 

Woohoo for "realism" lemme just eat some glass jars and die of starvation next to a campfire with a cooking pot after powerjumping myself over a 20ft fence. lol hope I find some books to eat. Every time I'm traveling somewhere, yeah, it doesn't feel like a shopping trip anymore, and there is some survival to it, but now it's basically pumping a stamina bar while training my eyes on an objective, it feels like a chore now. 

 

Yeah anyone can say what they want but I feel like TFP don't play their own game. Every time I read something from them it's about their "realism" or it's about their "desired way of playing the game" but they half-ass both of them.

 

I'm loving what they're doing with the POIs and the building mechanics. I got a few gripes with this game but I can never stop coming back to it. I hope they just listen to others for a change; repeatedly trying to figure why they chose to do the game like this has me noticing that the only answer will come about with a full psychoanalysis.

 

Anyway, glass jars removed. Boo. Need myself a step scooter so my pinky doesn't cramp from holding shift as I march toward honey, water and books xd

[meganoth]

I can only repeat what Feycat said: "Reality isn't part of the game.".

 

It is definitely a game where reality takes second place behind gameplay. And that you try to explain zombies to yourself is a work of futility, zombies are a work of fiction that can't be explained by viruses or anything else, at least not how they are in any zombie movie or game I have ever seen.

 

To avoid any misunderstandings I have never argued with realism as a reason for anything in the game, if you think that you have misread my post. I only sometimes offer ways to look at things in the game so people who want a simulation instead of a game have an easier time explaining stuff to themselves.

 

The game does not have acid bottles and AFAIK never had them. I never saw complaints about that, until now. People readily accepted it as it was a convention used by many games before. Most games do not simulate containers at all. Except for a few simulations and survival games I suppose. What gets you up on the barricades with the water bottles is that it got changed and now you see behind the facade where before you could easily ignore it.

 

I agree that honey as the solution to infection is just too rare, but that is a completely different topic.

 

 

[soultracer]

It’s a zombie game, so reality is not a target, that's obvious.
I can fill a bucket with water, but there is no bottle or jar I can fill with water and drink out of it?
That was a senseless move.
Also, the books.
It seems, some are very lucky. I am not.
Lucky looting is more unlucky looting.
I think the devs are bored, so they install mechanics that slow down the fun.
But changes are sometimes not necessary, that's what I think.

[meilodasreh]

On 9/4/2023 at 8:51 PM, BFT2020 said:

They (developers) don't have any intent at this point to bring back empty jars,[...]They don't want to deal with empty containers in their game.

As much as I apprechiate your contribution here in the forums,

I don't like response like this.

Defining a topic as being irrelevant that way, well then one could say why not shut down the whole "general discussion" and also the "pimp dreams" forum sections,

because everything that is currently not in the game might be because it's not how TFP want it and so there's no point in even mentioning it.

Should of course not be like this, especially with a topic that is frequently brought up by people.

Not to bring up the old discussion that a company should listen what their customers want, and not make it a priority to do stuff to their own best liking.

But nevertheless, "they don't want it" should not be taken as a reason/explanation in response of anybody expressing their thoughts on the game.

Just my humble opinion.

[Maharin]

Glass jars are now sharp sticks.  If you find one you've found them both.

[BFT2020]

20 hours ago, meilodasreh said:

As much as I apprechiate your contribution here in the forums,

I don't like response like this.

Defining a topic as being irrelevant that way, well then one could say why not shut down the whole "general discussion" and also the "pimp dreams" forum sections,

because everything that is currently not in the game might be because it's not how TFP want it and so there's no point in even mentioning it.

Should of course not be like this, especially with a topic that is frequently brought up by people.

Not to bring up the old discussion that a company should listen what their customers want, and not make it a priority to do stuff to their own best liking.

But nevertheless, "they don't want it" should not be taken as a reason/explanation in response of anybody expressing their thoughts on the game.

Just my humble opinion.

 

Sometimes I can be brutally honest, it's something that will pop up time after time.

 

But if it makes you feel better, how about this?  I think you guys have the same chance of bringing back empty jars as LBD coming back to this game.

Edited September 8, 2023 by BFT2020 (see edit history)

[BFT2020]

So to expand on my harsh response (and yes, my first response was harsh, I have no qualms of admitting to that).....

 

I think focusing on what was removed, doesn't fix the problems or issues that people are facing.  And by focusing on just that, you are wasting time and energy on something that you won't change, but is not the only solution out there.

 

For example, one issue I have noted that people have brought up about the jars being removed is not being able to mass produce glue / duct tape (empty jars to murky water to glue to duct tape to exploding arrows / bolts).  If you constantly focus on the removal of empty jars (even though that is the direction that the developers have been firm about going towards), you miss out of the opportunity for supplying ideas that address the core issue.  Like, we have in the game an iron bucket that you can fill with water.  What about using a filled iron bucket as part of a recipe to mass produce glue?  It doesn't require the return of empty glass jars and the developers haven't said anything about removing it (because of its use for builders that want water features I believe).

[meilodasreh]

fine, then so be it. Let's shut down all the forum sections except the dev diary, and not allow any topics where people express their thoughts on the game and/or make suggestions. Because it's a waste of time anyway to discuss things, in the end "they don't want it", or at least the chances that it could be implemented are too low that it's worth talking about it...at least if you ask some people who want to speak for the devs.

 

P.S. I like what you wrote in the last paragraph. This is in fact discussion about the pros and cons about a topic. That is what I meant, that's how a topic should be talked about, instead of just "I don't care about your arguments and don't even refer to it, cause you won't have it anyway, live with it".

 

 

[RipClaw]

15 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

Like, we have in the game an iron bucket that you can fill with water.  What about using a filled iron bucket as part of a recipe to mass produce glue?  It doesn't require the return of empty glass jars and the developers haven't said anything about removing it (because of its use for builders that want water features I believe).

This sounds interesting for a mod, but I don't think it's coming to vanilla. There are too many signs that the developers don't like it when the player can mass-produce glue and duct tape.

 

[meilodasreh]

 

22 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

There are too many signs that the developers don't like it

...yes thx I have taken the hint, please keep on everybody, it seems to be just me, I'm fine 😄

 

Actually it's even quite funny, that when one guy pulling the "reason" that "they don't want it" starts to actually discuss real ideas, the next guy takes over to "beat it down" again with the "they don't want it" argument.

Just my sense of humor, please continue  🙂

 

Edited September 9, 2023 by meilodasreh (see edit history)

[binf_shinana]

露収集機を作るのに大量のポリマーを要求するので、たくさん粘着剤を作りたいのであれば、水ではなくスクラップポリマーにレシピを置き換えるMODを作るのもよいと思います。

 

(google translation)

Making a dew collector requires a large amount of polymer, so if you want to make a lot of adhesive, I think it would be a good idea to make a MOD that replaces the recipe with scrap polymer instead of water.

[RipClaw]

6 hours ago, meilodasreh said:

...yes thx I have taken the hint, please keep on everybody, it seems to be just me, I'm fine 😄

I did not reply to your post. If you feel addressed by my post I can not help it. 
 

6 hours ago, meilodasreh said:

Actually it's even quite funny, that when one guy pulling the "reason" that "they don't want it" starts to actually discuss real ideas, the next guy takes over to "beat it down" again with the "they don't want it" argument.

Can you please show me where I used the word "reason"? I never said that the mass production of glue was the reason for the removal of jars, but you can hardly deny that it has a big impact.
 

[Rotor]

Min/Maxers are killing the game!

 

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[The_Great_Sephiroth]

I didn't realize people were still finding out about the jar change. I don't mind it. It was hard at first, but now I just setup a field of dew collectors at our farm and we're good. Granted, we run my mod that reduces heat from them down to 2% max instead of 10% max (I expect the devs to tweak this value at some point), but beyond that we're good with the change. I do miss grabbing water from lakes and rivers, but it's all good. Now it generates automatically for me.

 

I do wish that the collectors would rapidly produce water while it rains though. That or give us a water-collector. Either could be very useful.

[Rotor]

41 minutes ago, The_Great_Sephiroth said:

I didn't realize people were still finding out about the jar change. I don't mind it. It was hard at first, but now I just setup a field of dew collectors at our farm and we're good. Granted, we run my mod that reduces heat from them down to 2% max instead of 10% max (I expect the devs to tweak this value at some point), but beyond that we're good with the change. I do miss grabbing water from lakes and rivers, but it's all good. Now it generates automatically for me.

 

I do wish that the collectors would rapidly produce water while it rains though. That or give us a water-collector. Either could be very useful.

 

I would be okay with it if it didnt require a filter from that DARN! Trader.

 

Or allow me to use the bucket to fill my boiling pot.

[Roland]

Stating that glass jars are not returning is simply stating a fact and it is pointless to start threads calling for their return.  That doesn’t mean that all forums should be shut down just because the devs have made their final decision on this one aspect of the game. There’s still plenty to discuss and plenty of Pimp dreams to consider. There can even be discussion on improving the water survival aspect of the game as long as everyone understands that the new baseline is that there are no empty jars. 
 

So talking about tool slots in the dew collector, rain having an impact on the rate of water collection, giving the bucket a role, etc are all productive points of discussion. 

[Jost Amman]

31 minutes ago, Roland said:

There can even be discussion on improving the water survival aspect of the game as long as everyone understands that the new baseline is that there are no empty jars. 

And what about, let's say... empty glass bottles? 

[Rotor]

3 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

And what about, let's say... empty glass bottles? 

 

I think if you were over 1hr mark, it was not "too soon".

[meilodasreh]

18 hours ago, RipClaw said:

Can you please show me where I used the word "reason"? I never said that the mass production of glue was the reason for the removal of jars, but you can hardly deny that it has a big impact.

Really, no need to feel offended.

I was just trying to express my opinion to BFT2020 before, that when somebody starts a topic about what he thinks about the game, it should be disscussed contentwise, sharing thoughts about the pros and cons of the idea/concept/suggestion.

And responds like "the devs don't want it" just add nothing substantial to such a discussion.

Regardless of how true in may be that case, this "reason" is kinda hollow and could be used as a universal argument to shut up any topic...so not very good culture of debate.

BFT2020 kind of misunderstood my point too and also acted somewhat offended (well might be because the topic of empty jars is really polarizing, though my point is about discussions in general)

And then the minute he was switching over to actually discuss and share his point of view, then you took over and did the "they don't want it" thing to him.

And really that's some funny irony, isn't it?

So, I hope I did clarify myself and that we're good. 

[Maharin]

21 hours ago, Rotor said:

Min/Maxers are killing the game!

 

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You could have done that with fewer dots.  Such a waste.

[BFT2020]

14 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

And what about, let's say... empty glass bottles? 

 

That's not murky water in those......

On 9/9/2023 at 3:51 AM, RipClaw said:

This sounds interesting for a mod, but I don't think it's coming to vanilla. There are too many signs that the developers don't like it when the player can mass-produce glue and duct tape.

 

 

Yeah, in my thought process, I always start with via a mod approach and then see if it makes it way to vanilla.  By going this route, I can always have a way to get what I want from the game