Alpha 21 Dev Diary

[pApA^LeGBa]

On 10/25/2023 at 9:55 PM, Roland said:

The Illogica site says it will be more of an arcade experience. So this is how it probably went down. Madmole got sick of people calling 7 Days a looter shooter and said to himself, “I’ll give them a looter shooter!!!!”

 

 I mean at this point it be like this:

[n2n1]

Dear developers,
don't your designers think that new cars are too big relative to all other items in the world?
(or has it already been submitted for correction?)

[Riamus]

2 hours ago, n2n1 said:

Dear developers,
don't your designers think that new cars are too big relative to all other items in the world?
(or has it already been submitted for correction?)

Relative to what?  They fit the garage door size.  They are close enough to player and zombie size.  Animals are not bad compared to vehicles and I'd say any issue there relates to the animals instead of vehicles.  They fit the roads.

 

Also, you reference the new cars and yet they are basically the same size as the old cars (you can still see old cars in the game and are sometimes right next to the new cars).

 

Note: If you are from a country other than the US, the cars may seem large since American cars can be bigger than cars built in some other countries.  Perhaps that is why they seem large to you?  Just trying to figure out why you think they are too big relative to everything else.

Edited October 28, 2023 by Riamus (see edit history)

[n2n1]

8 minutes ago, Riamus said:

///

 

Note: If you are from a country other than the US, the cars may seem large since American cars can be bigger than cars built in some other countries.  Perhaps that is why they seem large to you?  Just trying to figure out why you think they are too big relative to everything else.

well, at least because they are bigger than other american cars from the this game.
But the trucks, by the way, are small. What, in america's - small trucks?

[Riamus]

10 minutes ago, n2n1 said:

well, at least because they are bigger than other american cars from the this game.
But the trucks, by the way, are small. What, in america's - small trucks?

Which cars are bigger than which cars and shouldn't be?  Trucks are about equal in size to an F-150.  Maybe a screenshot of the cars you think are you big may help and, for perspective, have someone stand next to each and also next to ones you think are the right size.

Edited October 29, 2023 by Riamus (see edit history)

[n2n1]

22 minutes ago, Riamus said:

Relative to what?  They fit the garage door size.  They are close enough to player and zombie size.  Animals are not bad compared to vehicles and I'd say any issue there relates to the animals instead of vehicles.  They fit the roads.

 

compared to the roads in the city. they look bulky on the road, blocking everything...
 Small roads in america?

Edited October 29, 2023 by n2n1 (see edit history)

[Riamus]

Just now, n2n1 said:

compared to the roads in the city.
Are there small roads in america?

Road lanes are slightly wider than a normal sized car in the US, like you see in the game.

[n2n1]

Just now, Riamus said:

Road lanes are slightly wider than a normal sized car in the US, like you see in the game.

yes, of course - gaming conventions.
I don't care how it really is - i'm concerned about the visual aesthetics in the game.

[Riamus]

22 minutes ago, n2n1 said:

yes, of course - gaming conventions.
I don't care how it really is - i'm concerned about the visual aesthetics in the game.

I would think that if the game art matches realistic sizes, it would be a good thing.

[Roland]

8 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

 

 I mean at this point it be like this:

 

[Old Crow]

3 hours ago, Roland said:

 

 

Truth, but you can't deny TFP placed a a much, much bigger emphasis on looting in A21.

[meilodasreh]

probably because looting is the one big predominant aspect, and all the others aren't even possible without looting.

Not complaining about it though.

[pApA^LeGBa]

@Roland It´s like @meilodasreh said. You can´t survive without heavy looting anymore, at least not early on as you would simply die from thirst. No one says looting should be gone and no one said there is no other activities.

 

And ofc people will talk about new changes. Do you expect us to praise the fact we can level up and kill things everytime we criticize something?

 

It´s just too much right now. Also crafting? Yeah. Even if you don´t rush trough quests you get a lot of stuff as rewards, never crafted a single armor piece in A21. Or any kind of machine gun, bow or knife, found all that looting and as rewards. And you kinda have to do quests or heavy looting to get water filters, you simply don´t get enough money without heavy looting for the filters and beeing under time pressure people will ofc do quests.

 

To make it really bad, there is RNG involved in skills. Especially if someone likes to level out his points. The current system also gives a huge advantage to people who min/max. Wich is a problem in a MP focused game.

 

So yes, it´s all about looting. Go watch any content creator and see that most of them do nothing else. Go to public servers and see people rushing trough quests because that´s how you can prepare the best for the hordes.

Edited October 29, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[beerfly]

Apart from the looting, do you guys remember Hub City, the wholes in the streets, where some sort of construction works was being done and the apocalypce happened.

 

What happened and who filled them while we survive out there ? Stuff on the road that pops up and we crashed into.. apparently is some sort of pain it the butt for some, but these were good, while driving and escaping from zeds, falling into one. Bring those back, if possible. 

[Laz Man]

21 minutes ago, beerfly said:

Apart from the looting, do you guys remember Hub City, the wholes in the streets, where some sort of construction works was being done and the apocalypce happened.

 

What happened and who filled them while we survive out there ? Stuff on the road that pops up and we crashed into.. apparently is some sort of pain it the butt for some, but these were good, while driving and escaping from zeds, falling into one. Bring those back, if possible. 

 

There is one part that spawns an excavator in a hole on a street.  Maybe we can make more of those for wasteland areas.  Will see.

 

[Roland]

8 hours ago, Old Crow said:

 

Truth, but you can't deny TFP placed a a much, much bigger emphasis on looting in A21.

You’re right, I can’t. And yet even with the imbalance of the quest rewards I still find myself crafting my own gear more often in A21 than I did in A20. If they can provide an option for nerfed rewards then it will be perfect. 
 

 

[meilodasreh]

13 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

There is one part that spawns an excavator in a hole on a street.  Maybe we can make more of those for wasteland areas.  Will see.

 

make one "construction site cave" that's totally hidden underground beneath the street, fill that lil cave with some gas barrels,

then just put some landmines on top across the road.

That should be some fun.

[Roland]

4 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

@Roland It´s like @meilodasreh said. You can´t survive without heavy looting anymore, at least not early on as you would simply die from thirst. No one says looting should be gone and no one said there is no other activities.

You kind of do whenever you designate the game as a “looter shooter”.  Every time someone has labeled the game that way they were ranting that this is all the game has become. 

 

I agree that early on you can’t survive without heavy looting but that’s just early on. It’s like looking at the phase of the game when you’re ready to build your final base and then saying that the whole game is just a building and block crafting  game. 
 

4 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

To make it really bad, there is RNG involved in skills. Especially if someone likes to level out his points. The current system also gives a huge advantage to people who min/max. Wich is a problem in a MP focused game.

This game has not supported PVP mp very well since Alpha 10 and Alpha 11 was the first time people started realizing PVP wasn’t the focus of this game. As for cooperative MP why do you care about relative levels? I’m always far behind levels compared to my brother simply because I can’t play as often. It’s no big deal. Just due to frequency of play you will always see differences in levels between players— good thing we’re all on the same side. 
 

As for maxing out skills you can still do it but it takes longer. Did you mean maxing out skills fast is what people want?

 

4 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

So yes, it´s all about looting. Go watch any content creator and see that most of them do nothing else. Go to public servers and see people rushing trough quests because that´s how you can prepare the best for the hordes.

That’s their choice. I’ve said it before that there is no need to rush and loot exclusively in order to keep ahead of the difficulty progression of the hordes. The first couple of horde nights don’t need hardly any preparation so that’s 21 days to prepare for the first mildly challenging event. If you are questing exclusively for 21 days just to be ready for Horde night #3 you will be far beyond the horde’s ability to even challenge you at all. And that’s playing solo. With a team it’s even easier.
 

I'd be a lot more in agreement with you if there actually was a time crunch to prepare adequately. 
 

At any rate I do agree that a non-looting game is no longer possible. 

[beerfly]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

Every time someone has labeled the game...

This ^

 

Labeling brings separation, solving problems brings people back and further for better. 

 

Anyway, what`s the homework for tomorrow, sir? 

[pApA^LeGBa]

@Roland I wasn´t talking about PvP. This game has public servers and this matters in PvE aswell. I don´t think i really need to explain to you why and tbh i won´t be bothered if you claim otherwise.

 

Also as you always say, we can´t only look at the game with the eyes of an veteran with thousands of hours. There is enough people who do have a time crunch. You should sometimes join a public server or watch some content creators that are new to the game.

 

Anyways, it doesn´t matter how we call it, a crafting survival game shouldn´t have a heavy emphasis on looting. Especially not in early game. That´s actually something for late game imo. If you play the game like intended, with questing and looting, you only need to craft for building, repair kits and such. Crafting first aid? Nope. Crafting ammo? Nope. Infestation caches. Weapons? Nope, unless you play spear or baton. Armor? Nope, not necessary either. That´s not what you would expect from a crafting game, unless you like false labels. The essentials things don´t need to be crafted. That´s a huge fault. And only nerfing rewards won´t be enough to change that with a loot room in every building.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 29, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Roland]

1 hour ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

@Roland I wasn´t talking about PvP. This game has public servers and this matters in PvE aswell. I don´t think i really need to explain to you why and tbh i won´t be bothered if you claim otherwise.

 

My point is that the disparity in leveling pace between players can't be solved. Even if the game is perfectly balanced (say through daily quest limits)

for players of differing playstyles to be able to keep pace with each other as they level up, there will always be players who can't log in as often and they will always be behind. It just can't be helped so why make such a concept a litmus test for whether the game is balanced in one area or not. Sure, if you min/max quests and I don't you will progress faster than me. Also, if you play every day and I play only on the weekends you will progress faster than me. There is no solution to prevent some people from progressing faster than others so it isn't the right approach to critique the role looting has for player progression. 

 

Also, you (or somebody) might need to explain to me why it matters in PvE multiplayer that you are level 30 and I am level 10. I've wracked my brain and can't come up with any compelling reason why it ultimately matters. If we are playing separately on the same server there is no conceivable reason why it would matter and if we team up then as a team we are still together more powerful than the game's threats even if the combined gamestage is a bit higher for me than I would experience alone at level 10. So please do explain it to me and change my mind since you already stated you won't be bothered if I claim otherwise.

 

1 hour ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

Also as you always say, we can´t only look at the game with the eyes of an veteran with thousands of hours. There is enough people who do have a time crunch. You should sometimes join a public server or watch some content creators that are new to the game.

 

Yeah.....but it isn't the new players who are complaining. It is predominately and almost exclusively the veterans. New players don't have any reference to compare the looting to crafting/building ratios of previous versions of the game. Therefore, my counterpoint of "little to no time crunch" is directed to the group who is doing the most complaining and they certainly do have little to no time crunch. Their pace is still way way beyond the difficulty curve of the game. Meanwhile, newbies who will ultimately become veterans are most likely the type who are enjoying any time crunch they feel.

 

1 hour ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

Anyways, it doesn´t matter how we call it, a crafting survival game shouldn´t have a heavy emphasis on looting. Especially not in early game. That´s actually something for late game imo. If you play the game like intended, with questing and looting, you only need to craft for building, repair kits and such. Crafting first aid? Nope. Crafting ammo? Nope. Infestation caches. Weapons? Nope, unless you play spear or baton. Armor? Nope, not necessary either. That´s not what you would expect from a crafting game, unless you like false labels. The essentials things don´t need to be crafted. That´s a huge fault. And only nerfing rewards won´t be enough to change that with a loot room in every building.

 

But it isn't a crafting game. It is a crafting, building, exploring, farming, looting, trading, killing, leveling, mining game. So you aren't expected to craft everything. As I stated, I actually craft more in A21 than I did in A20 and if they nerf (or give us the option to nerf) quest rewards I expect to do even more crafting in the future. But 7 Days to Di isn't a crafting game. It is a game that has crafting in it. As soon as your expectations rise to the level of it being a crafting game you are always going to be disappointed. Same as those folks who want it to be a Stealth game.  

[Matt115]

23 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

My point is that the disparity in leveling pace between players can't be solved. Even if the game is perfectly balanced (say through daily quest limits)

for players of differing playstyles to be able to keep pace with each other as they level up, there will always be players who can't log in as often and they will always be behind. It just can't be helped so why make such a concept a litmus test for whether the game is balanced in one area or not. Sure, if you min/max quests and I don't you will progress faster than me. Also, if you play every day and I play only on the weekends you will progress faster than me. There is no solution to prevent some people from progressing faster than others so it isn't the right approach to critique the role looting has for player progression. 

 

Kinda "throw away" gamestage + perks and focus on gear could solve this problem.  You know - kinda like DayZ. but... then PVE would be boring as hell and pretty pointless

[Old Crow]

6 hours ago, Roland said:

You’re right, I can’t. And yet even with the imbalance of the quest rewards I still find myself crafting my own gear more often in A21 than I did in A20. If they can provide an option for nerfed rewards then it will be perfect. 
 

 

 

Not even offer an option - just do it. Or no gear via quest rewards, so crafting is more worth it. Let Rank 6 gear be available through looting high level POIs or something.

[Crater Creator]

4 hours ago, Roland said:

Also, you (or somebody) might need to explain to me why it matters in PvE multiplayer that you are level 30 and I am level 10. I've wracked my brain and can't come up with any compelling reason why it ultimately matters. If we are playing separately on the same server there is no conceivable reason why it would matter and if we team up then as a team we are still together more powerful than the game's threats even if the combined gamestage is a bit higher for me than I would experience alone at level 10. So please do explain it to me and change my mind since you already stated you won't be bothered if I claim otherwise.

 

Basically, it’s not as fun for the lower-leveled players. At least in the case where they’re a team, they see the higher-leveled players using cooler weapons and gear, and getting more kills. It’s human nature to gauge your status and happiness relative to how others are doing.

 

This was a while ago, but I remember joining a buddy’s game in coop. When we quested, he wanted me to save all the looting for him, because his character was better at looting. It didn’t matter that we’d share everything in the end; playing second fiddle like that would’ve been boring. Could coop players agree to prioritize everyone's fun, instead of min-maxing? Yes, in theory. Yet I have a feeling other players have been in that situation, where an imbalance in progress does matter.

 

4 hours ago, Roland said:

But it isn't a crafting game. It is a crafting, building, exploring, farming, looting, trading, killing, leveling, mining game. So you aren't expected to craft everything. As I stated, I actually craft more in A21 than I did in A20 and if they nerf (or give us the option to nerf) quest rewards I expect to do even more crafting in the future. But 7 Days to Di isn't a crafting game. It is a game that has crafting in it. As soon as your expectations rise to the level of it being a crafting game you are always going to be disappointed. Same as those folks who want it to be a Stealth game.  

 

It’s the survival horde crafting game. Says so right at the top of the page. 

I think a plurality of all discussion on this site boils down to what kind of game people think this is or should be. Which is fine for a game that, after all, is A) a sandbox and B) in alpha. It’s telling that you didn’t even mention survival, which I personally want to be a priority, while you did list farming and mining, which I consider to be... things you can do, if you want to. This alpha I went about 70 days before mining below the dirt layer. And I didn’t need to, anyway. I just wanted a fancy roof with bulletproof glass, for the aesthetics. Anyway, if we accept the premise that the devs are working towards the vision they’ve always had, then I think we have to look at that tagline and say that this aspires to be a survival horde crafting game. Which means that yes, it is a crafting game. An isosceles right triangle is a triangle.

[pApA^LeGBa]

@Roland Yep, the problem with the difference between players can´t be solved completly, but they could at least try to keep it as low as possible. But making it even easier to min/max and rush trough isn´t the right decision as this makes it more likely that the gap gets bigger, way faster than before. The current changes actually encourage people to do so.

 

Ahh yeah. The genre mix. Ofc it is a mix. But it´s not called the looting trading horde game or the mining horde leveling game. It´s called 7 Days to die, the survival horde crafting game. So the focus should be on those things. Everything else is basically false advertising. Not exactly but it´s too late for me to properly express that in english. False labeling? I don´t know. A less severe form of false advertising. Something that is illegal for many products. At least here.

 

I mean the survival is nearly gone already, temperature doesn´t really effect you, weather has no role at all, food is everywhere and even water is still an all you can drink buffet if played as a loot shooter (there i said it again). Crafting isn´t necessary for many things. Basically only horde belongs there anymore.

 

@Crater Creator It´s also not fun on public servers when your direct neighbour has a higher gamestage and draws in tougher zombie spawns. And you can´t always choose your neighbour or if you have one or not. Who wants to move just because a min/maxer deceided to live near you? Nobody.

Edited October 30, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)