Alpha 21 Dev Diary

[Aldranon]

I should add that for bandits, the first layer of the "AI" would be something like this after they spot the player:

<Seek Cover><Shoot><Begin moving toward player><Begin moving around flank of player>

 

These events could be modified by the player:

<Shooting and missing>.

<Shooting and hitting>.

<Running away>.

<Charging>.

Ect.

 

So these player events can modify the Bandits subsequent actions or emotes even.   Not the easiest thing, but certainly not impossible.

[Matt115]

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

About that whole discussion, previous alphas of 7D2D may have been more difficult but they were not really much more complex. Naturally the first alphas you played looked more complex and difficult to you since you were still learning the game. It is not easy to ignore that effect when you are reminiscing about the past.

 

No - older were harder - zombies in A11 (or A10)  always know were you are so it was harder. meat smell - harder to get food.   guns parts as many types not one item forced to looking for specific part of gun. Cleaning corpses were hard job and you had to check if it doesn't left any body pile. farming was more complexed.    wight spawning in tunnels. much less water on map ( or i just had strange luck) , old wellness system were harder that this system.

 

4 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

 

Valheim has no difficulty setting and its only difficulty setting is much higher than default difficulty of 7D2D, maybe comparable to warrior diff in 7D2D or higher and with 25% loot !? It's loot setting can't be changed as well  and so it is much more grindy and again there is no choice for the player to change that. And many players mix up grind with complexity. Because of the set difficulty you never can relax, but its complexity is only once for the first playthrough. I have my doubts I will ever play Valheim again after the first playthrough.

 

Valhiem will have difficulty after new update 

" Another thing we’re looking at for Hildir’s Quest is playtesting some new server settings. We’re trying out a hard mode and an easy mode, but also a casual mode where you won’t lose gear upon death. The normal mode will still always be the best balanced version of the game, but we hope adding more ways to play the game can both provide a challenge to experienced players and open the game up to players who would rather take a calm and relaxed approach". 

 

change of diffculty doesn't add new enemies or mechanics. only game i remember that rly change a  gam was brother at arms: road 40  which was adding snipers. Dark souls doesn't have diffculty just new game + which ofc boost stats of enemies but adding new enemies too. 

 

That's why diffculty should be create by complexed mechanics which need a lot of time too learn not from just changing stats.

 

4 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

 

In my view the complexity of 7D2D is not found in combat and if you are a player who wants a zombie shooter game you can find difficulty if you change to the right difficulty settings. But you can't find complexity because you have no interest in the complexity 7D2D has to offer. Because the complexity of 7D2D is mainly in the building part and optimized horde night defense part. And that part can be easily avoided by building a simple horde base and just use tons of ammo to get rid of the zombies or even copy some base design from the internet. It is a choice and by offering this choice 7D2D gains a lot of flexibility. But with flexibility comes the choice to avoid the difficulty and the complexity. 

 

 

That's true not in combat. but building is even less important. You probably watched TWD - how is looking "making" base there

1. find building

2. barricade

3. focus on food etc.

Because it's most optimal

 

Because from logical point of view - nobody would make base from begining just use older buildings + using concreate military walls ( i mean portable). etc.  and that's it. Who would make villa during zombie apocalypse. Nobody - it's more like hm... sit in garnison during war - you focus on food, guns etc. not to make place beatiful.  so yeah - defence is rly important so focus on that's good thing. But nobody will make nice houses but forts 

[Doomofman]

Don't suppose there's any chance A21 Exp is being aimed at the Steam Spring Sale? 🤔😋

Edited February 22, 2023 by Doomofman (see edit history)

[Aldranon]

3 minutes ago, Doomofman said:

Don't suppose there's any chance A21 Exp is being aimed at the Steam Spring Sale? 🤔😋

 

It would be good for the business side of TFP of course.  I might be influenced by wanting it to happen then, but there's no word on Dev streamers yet.  So unlikely.

[meganoth]

26 minutes ago, Aldranon said:

I should add that for bandits, the first layer of the "AI" would be something like this after they spot the player:

<Seek Cover><Shoot><Begin moving toward player><Begin moving around flank of player>

 

These events could be modified by the player:

<Shooting and missing>.

<Shooting and hitting>.

<Running away>.

<Charging>.

Ect.

 

So these player events can modify the Bandits subsequent actions or emotes even.   Not the easiest thing, but certainly not impossible.

 

I don't say anything is impossible. I say it is normally far outside the realm of an indy game to have a foolproof AI. Players will usually find ways to exploit the AI, be it zombies (what we originally talked about) or bandits. Especially in a game where you can change the world freely to confuse the AI.

 

I really don't know what Faatal will make bandits do, or what some modder might do. I don't have the expectation of seeing the bandits act like in a team shooter that cost 80 Mio. to develop and has the advantage of a fixed terrain. But if it happens, I won't protest.

 

I am merely critizising how you look down on the "simple" zombie AI. It is far from simple to program it. And the other thing is that it should be exploitable to an extent. That is part of the fun for a new player (and even some veterans) to find new ways of making the zombies run into their doom. And sometimes die because the foolproof plan didn't go well when the player was too late opening the bridge.

 

Yes, I want zombies to follow clear rules for the most part. That is part of the tower defense genre that you have attackers who follow certain rules. And I want to optimizise your defenses according to these rules. How can I build an interesting "tower" if I don't know well before the attack how the attackers will react?

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Aldranon said:

 

You're an all or nothing kind of guy it seems, when a simple percental can create many responses to the same event/situation.   Enough that would turn the current mind-numbing and endlessly repetitive reactions into something more interesting plausible. 

 

Adding just one more layer of sub-responses with conditions or from other events and you have an "AI" that bandits could be very interesting and seem realistic enough (depending on programmer imagination of course).  

 

 

Tell me what you want the zombie AI to do if a bridge on the current path it tries to get to the player is closed and a different bridge is opened?

 

[Doomofman]

42 minutes ago, Aldranon said:

 

It would be good for the business side of TFP of course.  I might be influenced by wanting it to happen then, but there's no word on Dev streamers yet.  So unlikely.

 

I think there's been enough hints at this point to suggest that the Dev Stream part of the release isn't going to be quite what we're used to. 

 

But being honest, I'm just being overly optimistic, I doubt this is what'll actually happen

[meganoth]

39 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

No - older were harder - zombies in A11 (or A10)  always know were you are so it was harder. meat smell - harder to get food.   guns parts as many types not one item forced to looking for specific part of gun. Cleaning corpses were hard job and you had to check if it doesn't left any body pile. farming was more complexed.    wight spawning in tunnels. much less water on map ( or i just had strange luck) , old wellness system were harder that this system.

 

I have not claimed that it wasn't harder, I just don't know from first hand because I started in A15.

 

I am talking mostly about complexity and unless farming changed multiple times it was probably the same as in A15. And then I know how farming worked and I don't call that complexity. You needed to till the ground, oh wow (nothing complex about that). I thought it was a nice mechanic that you needed a special tool for it and I personally would have prefered such "gates" to stay in the game, but that was no complexity as well.

 

39 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

 

Valhiem will have difficulty after new update 

" Another thing we’re looking at for Hildir’s Quest is playtesting some new server settings. We’re trying out a hard mode and an easy mode, but also a casual mode where you won’t lose gear upon death. The normal mode will still always be the best balanced version of the game, but we hope adding more ways to play the game can both provide a challenge to experienced players and open the game up to players who would rather take a calm and relaxed approach". 

 

Thanks for the info.

 

39 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

 

change of diffculty doesn't add new enemies or mechanics. only game i remember that rly change a  gam was brother at arms: road 40  which was adding snipers. Dark souls doesn't have diffculty just new game + which ofc boost stats of enemies but adding new enemies too. 

 

New zombie skins do not add complexity.

 

39 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

That's why diffculty should be create by complexed mechanics which need a lot of time too learn not from just changing stats.

 

I agree that complex mechanics would be nice additions to the game. Neither more zombie skins nor skeletons nor more realism would automatically add complexity though.

 

39 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

 

That's true not in combat. but building is even less important. You probably watched TWD - how is looking "making" base there

 

Do you mean the television series? What does the television series have to do with building in 7D2D?

 

39 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

1. find building

2. barricade

3. focus on food etc.

Because it's most optimal

 

Because from logical point of view

 

This is faulty logic. Logically you play a game that follows different rules than the TV show. in 7D2D you will die if you follow the rules of that TV show. You are perfectly safe from zombies in a barricaded building on ground floor in that show.

 

39 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

 

- nobody would make base from begining just use older buildings + using concreate military walls ( i mean portable). etc.  and that's it. Who would make villa during zombie apocalypse. Nobody - it's more like hm... sit in garnison during war - you focus on food, guns etc. not to make place beatiful.  so yeah - defence is rly important so focus on that's good thing. But nobody will make nice houses but forts 

 

I have not been talking about beautiful palaces. I should have been more clear here: I was talking about elaborate horde bases with all kinds of traps, pits, funnels, bridges, passages, shooting holes, gaps, fallback positions. THIS is complexity, but you don't need to use it. You can also build a 10x10 concrete block and put boxes filled with ammo and grenades on it.

 

[Jost Amman]

4 hours ago, Matt115 said:

Little to do in valheim? there is always to do in valheim.

I admit I didn't play up to the levels you have probably reached in that game, but yes, after 10/15 hours I got bored and the stuff to do looked all the same, and it was an infinite grind instead of a fun game.

 

The landscape has very little to explore: there's a forest, and some flowers, some caves and a few ruined buildings... wow! So, much, fun.

Are you really trying to compare a random gen map in 7D2D with what little Valheim has to offer? 

 

Yes, I stand by my point: in 7D2D there's so much more to do than in Valheim because there's so much more content.

And you know that just by looking at the actual content you can find in the maps you play in.

 

4 hours ago, Matt115 said:

In valheim you have to worry  in black forest about shamans and brute if you have bronze eq . So if you get silver eq you can just walking there like in park just do stuff and that's it .

7DTD -  low gamestage forest near trader - normal zombies

7dtd - higher gamestage  near trader - bikers  + screamers xd 

so what is a point to get better EQ if  worlds get better too like in oblivion? In oblivion you have iron armor? bandits have iron armor. You have deadric armor? sup bandits get deadric armor - you had to hit bandit 15 times on begining of the game and after 40 hours of game you have to do this same. At least in oblivion you don't have level up ( you level up during sleep) so you can progress by looking on specifc weapons so you can  reduce number of hit from 15 into 10

 

You saying that is always this same stuff - if you play a little bit - yeah this can looks this same but stuff get crazy - slime have resistans against piercing damage, lox against blunt damage etc. so you have think  what do you want to use later - you made a spear but want to fight with bonemass - you will deal 1/4 of dmg.

Then silver weapons get specific damage - Draugt bow - poison, frostner - cold with slowing down. And then magic showing up crossbow + harpoon which is realy useful.

But you have to safe feathers for better arrows so you mostly fight melee 

 

7dtd after junk guns - you find junk shotgun - ammo is everywhere so you don't have to worry anymore. Another shotgun just faster reloading and 2 bullet and a little bit more dmg but just a little bit then just change magasine and rate of fire. And that's it.

In my opinion, you're confusing difficulty with progress.

 

In 7D2D difficulty ramps up as game-stage grows. On the other hand, progress is made by your own actions, depending both on how you invest in your perks, and by what you can learn (magazines) and find (loot) in the world. In 7D2D, each progress you make is permanent.

 

In Valheim, from what I've seen (and what I understand), difficulty ramps up with biomes (islands), but progress is just temporary, like in a hamster's wheel. You go into biomes/islands that are more difficult, but then you need to make progress with your gear to beat the new difficulty. After you do that, you start back again in the next biome, because all your progress is nullified by the new difficulty level of the monsters.

 

Valheim is using the well known MMO grind routine that some (like you) like, and some others, like me, don't like at all. For that reason, I think 7D2D is better in that regard: you can use the basic club you craft in the beginning, to kill both the "basic zombie" at the start of the game, and the feral zombie you fight in later stages.

 

A club is a club: you can use better clubs later, but your original club still works fine (you just learn to use it better maybe).

 

So, in the end, all that stuff that you call "complexity" and that you say is better, it's just some poor excuse for a grind mechanic that Valheim is using to keep players "busy".

[Laz Man]

34 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

I admit I didn't play up to the levels you have probably reached in that game, but yes, after 10/15 hours I got bored and the stuff to do looked all the same, and it was an infinite grind instead of a fun game.

 

The landscape has very little to explore: there's a forest, and some flowers, some caves and a few ruined buildings... wow! So, much, fun.

Are you really trying to compare a random gen map in 7D2D with what little Valheim has to offer? 

 

Yes, I stand by my point: in 7D2D there's so much more to do than in Valheim because there's so much more content.

And you know that just by looking at the actual content you can find in the maps you play in.

 

In my opinion, you're confusing difficulty with progress.

 

In 7D2D difficulty ramps up as game-stage grows. On the other hand, progress is made by your own actions, depending both on how you invest in your perks, and by what you can learn (magazines) and find (loot) in the world. In 7D2D, each progress you make is permanent.

 

In Valheim, from what I've seen (and what I understand), difficulty ramps up with biomes (islands), but progress is just temporary, like in a hamster's wheel. You go into biomes/islands that are more difficult, but then you need to make progress with your gear to beat the new difficulty. After you do that, you start back again in the next biome, because all your progress is nullified by the new difficulty level of the monsters.

 

Valheim is using the well known MMO grind routine that some (like you) like, and some others, like me, don't like at all. For that reason, I think 7D2D is better in that regard: you can use the basic club you craft in the beginning, to kill both the "basic zombie" at the start of the game, and the feral zombie you fight in later stages.

 

A club is a club: you can use better clubs later, but your original club still works fine (you just learn to use it better maybe).

 

So, in the end, all that stuff that you call "complexity" and that you say is better, it's just some poor excuse for a grind mechanic that Valheim is using to keep players "busy".

 

It is certainly a tried and true formula that many people enjoy.  I agree though, not really an apples to apples comparison as each games have different features they excell at.

[Matt115]

45 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

I have not claimed that it wasn't harder, I just don't know from first hand because I started in A15.

 

I am talking mostly about complexity and unless farming changed multiple times it was probably the same as in A15. And then I know how farming worked and I don't call that complexity. You needed to till the ground, oh wow (nothing complex about that). I thought it was a nice mechanic that you needed a special tool for it and I personally would have prefered such "gates" to stay in the game, but that was no complexity as well.

 

There was fertilizer so you could make "dirt" better  and if i good remember - dirt had 3 stages of upgrade  and was good. I can't say more because i just don't remember too much.

 

 

45 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

New zombie skins do not add complexity.

 

Sometimes can - i give you theoretical example - you see infected pilot - so this is visual information that there is clashed  helicopter nearby which can have some goods. 

If you see zombie patients near railway - there is a chance there is  train nearby. If you see zombie with acid wounds - you can expect acid nearby or special enemy, If you see zombie with radioactive changes on skin - you can expect radioctivity.

not connected with 7dtd but still with zombies : you play in medieval game with zombie  - you see zombie merchant? maybe there is cart with good. you see zombie princess? oh there can be much more powerful nearby.  You play in sci fi with zombies - you see zombie doc? this mean there can be zombie security with armor nearby. you see burned zombies? this mean there is flamethower enemy etc.

So - skins can give  you informations that can be useful during gameplay

 

 

46 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

I have not been talking about beautiful palaces. I should have been more clear here: I was talking about elaborate horde bases with all kinds of traps, pits, funnels, bridges, passages, shooting holes, gaps, fallback positions. THIS is complexity, but you don't need to use it. You can also build a 10x10 concrete block and put boxes filled with ammo and grenades on it.

 

 

You can yes but... why do this ? i mean literaly why - Typical square fort is the most effective - mean generaly - similiar solution is used in starship troopers against bugs - just the best option is make drawnbridge with few doors and turrets behind doors and tons ot spikes. just because making shooting holes, tunnels etc. would only make thing harded because zombies are too smart so can focus on such places - while simple fort allow to check every side of fort.  making such gaps or shooting holes won't help with vultures and will just reduce visibilty. so wall in medival style are the most effective with  just courtyard with traps. 

[Riamus]

I've never played Valheim, though I probably will say some point, but that didn't really matter to this question.  If you prefer Valheim to this game because you feel it is more complex or some other reason, can you honestly say you will put more hours into it than you have put into this game?  If not, is it really as good?

 

Some things can be good in certain games, but bad in others.  What works for one genre won't work well in another and can even not work well in another game in the same genre.  And for many gamers, complexity isn't what they are looking for.  There prefer just a fun game that they can jump right into that gives them replayability.  It can be deep without being complex.

 

This game works so well and gets the kind of playtime as MMOs simply because it has a lot of things to do, is easy to get into, and offers variety in each game (replayability).  Now, because of the fact people put in so many more hours into this game than other games, they are going to get bored eventually of seeing the same things over and over and doing the same things over and over.  Thankfully, modding this game is not too complex and so you can easily make changes to keep the game feeling new.  The fact it has been almost 10 years in alpha means the changes over all that time have also kept it feeling new, whether you like the changes or not.  Few games get this kind of playtime other than MMOs, so they are obviously doing something right.

[Riamus]

56 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

You can yes but... why do this ? i mean literaly why - Typical square fort is the most effective - mean generaly - similiar solution is used in starship troopers against bugs - just the best option is make drawnbridge with few doors and turrets behind doors and tons ot spikes. just because making shooting holes, tunnels etc. would only make thing harded because zombies are too smart so can focus on such places - while simple fort allow to check every side of fort.  making such gaps or shooting holes won't help with vultures and will just reduce visibilty. so wall in medival style are the most effective with  just courtyard with traps. 

And I can pretty much guarantee you that if you only play for efficiency, you will quickly get tired of the game because you will be doing the exact same thing every game.  If you instead play for fun, you try different things even if you know they aren't the most efficient and you can enjoy the variety that the game offers.  It makes the game last much longer before getting repetitive.

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

You can yes but... why do this ? i mean literaly why - Typical square fort is the most effective - mean generaly - similiar solution is used in starship troopers against bugs - just the best option is make drawnbridge with few doors and turrets behind doors and tons ot spikes. just because making shooting holes, tunnels etc. would only make thing harded because zombies are too smart so can focus on such places - while simple fort allow to check every side of fort.  making such gaps or shooting holes won't help with vultures and will just reduce visibilty. so wall in medival style are the most effective with  just courtyard with traps. 

 

Oh god, you are so NOT playing the 7D2D I play. What you seem to describe is exactly how a player used to shooters would play the game, and then complain that he has to work 2 out of his 7 days in the mines to get all the ammunition for the next horde night (in later stages)

 

The objective of a good horde base is to either make you kill as many zombies as possible with the lowest effort and ammo waste (i.e. increase effectivity) or make the zombies take as long as possible to get to you so you need to shoot much less (i.e. increase security). You can even get to the point that the traps do all the kills for you. Why would you do that? Well, for example to not work 2 out 7 days in the mines.

 

You really think you are more effective with having to shoot a bullet into every single zombie yourself when a sniper guy for example can headshot 3 or 4 zombies along a narrow passage or down a steep ladder with one bullet? You really think you are more effective than the guy who uses a pusher turret to collect 12 zombies in a pit and throws molotovs and grenades to finish them off, while still shooting inbetween?  You think you are as effective as the guy who shoots at zombies like you while the other half of the zombies are being shreddered by blade traps? You think wood spikes are as effective as blade traps or even dart traps?

 

Vultures? You can kill Vultures automatically as well, you don't need to shoot them yourself. This game is pretty good at making automated killing factories, you just have to embrace the complexity instead of thinking your glorified perch is the pinnacle of horde base.

 

You probably have fun playing like you do. That's fine, that is the flexibility 7D2D has to offer. But I have fun with a horde base while planning and building it, for you it probably is just a chore to make that same block of concrete again and again. And horde night is fun too because I hear zombies getting crunched to bits in a various traps while I shoot at them or even attack them in melee from a carefully built place.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Matt115]

1 hour ago, Jost Amman said:

I admit I didn't play up to the levels you have probably reached in that game, but yes, after 10/15 hours I got bored and the stuff to do looked all the same, and it was an infinite grind instead of a fun game.

 

The landscape has very little to explore: there's a forest, and some flowers, some caves and a few ruined buildings... wow! So, much, fun.

Are you really trying to compare a random gen map in 7D2D with what little Valheim has to offer? 

 

Yes, I stand by my point: in 7D2D there's so much more to do than in Valheim because there's so much more content.

And you know that just by looking at the actual content you can find in the maps you play in.

 

Valheim is much better if you play in 2 people - you know : i smelting ores while and  my friend cutting trees  or swim with resources.

 " he landscape has very little to explore: there's a forest, and some flowers, some caves and a few ruined buildings... wow! So, much, fun."

Because  it was like this how vikings saw a world ?  Like literaly - just wooden house , then small village and nothing for kms? If 7dtd was set for example piooner period in USA - well it would have similiar situation. Plus - mining if 7dtd is not effective anymore. While it's a base in valheim.

There is a forest - so there you can find diffrent type of tree = diffrent type of wood. 

Flowers? There is a lot of things depends of forest - normal or black or swamp or plains. 

Caves? well there is some type of caves and some of them pretty "important"

buildings? ofc there is small number of them but there is thing that almost doesn't exist in 7dtd. LORE! You can find a lot of information about lore - why  there is no other humans, why there is so small number of buildings, why they are undead. 

 

So there is a lot of content - trust me - just find a friend and you will always have something to do - taming animals, increasing comfort, making food and potions, a lot of option to build ( which here suit good - well vikings are not post apo survivors), finding bosses. so yeah there is so much.

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Jost Amman said:

 

 

In 7D2D difficulty ramps up as game-stage grows. On the other hand, progress is made by your own actions, depending both on how you invest in your perks, and by what you can learn (magazines) and find (loot) in the world. In 7D2D, each progress you make is permanent.

 

In Valheim, from what I've seen (and what I understand), difficulty ramps up with biomes (islands), but progress is just temporary, like in a hamster's wheel. You go into biomes/islands that are more difficult, but then you need to make progress with your gear to beat the new difficulty. After you do that, you start back again in the next biome, because all your progress is nullified by the new difficulty level of the monsters.

 

Valheim is using the well known MMO grind routine that some (like you) like, and some others, like me, don't like at all. For that reason, I think 7D2D is better in that regard: you can use the basic club you craft in the beginning, to kill both the "basic zombie" at the start of the game, and the feral zombie you fight in later stages.

 

A club is a club: you can use better clubs later, but your original club still works fine (you just learn to use it better maybe).

 

So, in the end, all that stuff that you call "complexity" and that you say is better, it's just some poor excuse for a grind mechanic that Valheim is using to keep players "busy".

well you can have many biomes on one island - so this can crate mix - you can find mobs from diffrent biomes fighting against them etc. 

And this looks on begining as you saying but there is two elements : 

1. enemies have diffrent weeknesses - so plains boss is weaker against cold so frostner or cold arrow are much better that blackmetal weapons. so until silver tier - it's simple - better tier just mean better weapon

2. there is LBD - so if you don't dying you are get better and better - and this depends on type of skill - both increase damage and stamina draining. so let's say you need 3 hit with flint axe to kill if you have 1 lvl that on 100 it will be 1 hit kill.

And you always have to came back to older biomes - to get bluberries or thistle  to potion in dark forest , fishes or ... ores because some thing need lower tiers metals too - so do swamp dungeon with silver items is rly fast and you have bigger boat to transport it.

 

In 7dtd basic cube is good against normal zombie but number of them decrease and you have more and more wight or fat cops - in valheim you will always ( with small exception - now bugs can respawn in some biomes if you manage too kill mistland biome but chances of respawn is small) only greydwarfs in meadows no chance for wolfs or draugs ( unless they came from nearby biom but still will spawn in their own biom).

 

Well later this cube will be just too low dps to be able to deal with enemies - try too kill normal zombies on begininng then  3 bikers with this same cube let's having 3 lvl of clubs - depending on your luck you will kill them faster or longer  because you have % of chances to knocback - so it's just clean luck.

 

i agree that smelting or swimming boat can be "grindy" but... 7dtd have similair problem - it's just luck what POI you will find - you want pills? you can find factory or gunshop so useless for you so much - in 7dtd everything except trader is RNG - and even you don't have 100% chances to find antibiotics even if you loot few pharmacy - in valheim you can be sure at least that you will find some surtiling ores in dungeons. so both - 7dtd and valheim can be grindy just about diffrent things

 

 

 

[Matt115]

19 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

Oh god, you are so NOT playing the 7D2D I play. What you seem to describe is exactly how a player used to shooters would play the game, and then complain that he has to work 2 out of his 7 days in the mines to get all the ammunition for the next horde night (in later stages)

 

The objective of a good horde base is to either make you kill as many zombies as possible with the lowest effort and ammo waste (i.e. increase effectivity) or make the zombies take as long as possible to get to you so you need to shoot much less (i.e. increase security). You can even get to the point that the traps do all the kills for you. Why would you do that? Well, for example to not work 2 out 7 days in the mines.

 

You really think you are more effective with having to shoot a bullet into every single zombie yourself when a sniper guy for example can headshot 3 or 4 zombies along a narrow passage or down a steep ladder with one bullet? You really think you are more effective than the guy who uses a pusher turret to collect 12 zombies in a pit and throws molotovs and grenades to finish them off, while still shooting inbetween?  You think you are as effective as the guy who shoots at zombies like you while the other half of the zombies are being shreddered by blade traps? You think wood spikes are as effective as blade traps or even dart traps?

 

Vultures? You can kill Vultures automatically as well, you don't need to shoot them yourself. This game is pretty good at making automated killing factories, you just have to embrace the complexity instead of thinking your glorified perch is the pinnacle of horde base.

 

You probably have fun playing like you do. That's fine, that is the flexibility 7D2D has to offer. But I have fun with a horde base while planning and building it, for you it probably is just a chore to make that same block of concrete again and again. And horde night is fun too because I hear zombies getting crunched to bits in a various traps while I shoot at them or even attack them in melee from a carefully built place.

 

 

Zombie in 7dtd =/= narrow corridor Do you know that flat POis? 4 floor flat.  so my observations -  zombies were getting inside and were going on staircase , some just was hitting random block near entres for some reasons? some just came to random apartaments and were hitting walls.  just part of them can to fight with me.

To be honest - for me ladder camping is just exploit. and it's just like death corridors in older alphas

 

And yes wood spikes are much more effective - it's cheaper and trees are infinite - and yes - okay let's make dart traps, ammo for this + blade traps with gathering resources for this and check time ( this will be totaly RNG because depend how fast you will find parts) then cut trees and make 30 lines of spikes - making such lines will be much faster and cheaper. For normal night you don't need shooting . just fix spikes at morning - and save ammo for blood moon.

i don't see sense of making  100% automatic system for blood moon. In factorio this have sense - you always making something - new lines, factories etc.  But here? if you set day per max minutes -  you would have rly boring 30-45 minutes of doing nothing. But then at least you can camp with hunting rifle and kill just vultures and range zombies

[Matt115]

56 minutes ago, Riamus said:

And I can pretty much guarantee you that if you only play for efficiency, you will quickly get tired of the game because you will be doing the exact same thing every game.  If you instead play for fun, you try different things even if you know they aren't the most efficient and you can enjoy the variety that the game offers.  It makes the game last much longer before getting repetitive.

i can't. i always choice the most logical and efficiency solutions. Do you know this joke about skyrim "this time i will play as mage - 50 hours sneaky bowman again" but this won't help what guns i'm using if i see this same looking zombie in small room

[Ouch Quit It]

On 2/14/2023 at 12:26 AM, Aldranon said:

 

A major airport POI quest would be similar to clearing a small city, all at once!  It could be a tier 6+ quest.

 

It could (should?) be on a separate map and be the final quest that possibly ends 7D2D part 1 and opens into Part 2 (the player flies a 747, loaded with supplies, to their "Final Destination"...  Part 2.

I always said the final quest would be to build the copter and fly away......fading out......fade in 7DtD 2

Edited February 23, 2023 by Ouch Quit It (see edit history)

[Ouch Quit It]

[Riamus]

38 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

i can't. i always choice the most logical and efficiency solutions. 

That doesn't seem to be the game's fault, or it's job to fix.  You are in a similar situation as I am, though for a different reason.  You get tired of seeing and doing the same thing because you only do the same thing.  For me, I get tired of seeing and doing the same thing even though I do different things because I don't stay focused on a single game very easily.  It is why I have hundreds of games between the different platforms and rarely complete games.  But I'm not trying to get games to change because I can't focus on one for long periods of time.  I just play sometime different for a while until I'm ready to go back.

[Ouch Quit It]

On 2/14/2023 at 10:35 AM, Laz Man said:

 

I also would love to see an airport POI one day.  However, I don't think it's in the cards for 1.0.  I would imagine the big blockers is art support and RWG code support.

 

Although we can hodge podge some airplanes and other airport assets with shapes, it wouldn't look good enough to stand toe to toe with our art standards.  

 

Regarding RWG support, we would need a way to spawn tiles in a way to support the foot print of a runway.

 

We don't have airports in A21 but there are a couple surprises in store yet...😉

 

Laz ...why are runways an issue......they are only 1 block deep.....whats the max size of a tile again. You dont need a major airport....the country is dotted with small municipal and rural airports.......even some are in small runway communities with peoples garages as hangars. you have undriveable derelict cars...mnake a destroyed plane.....salvage parts or find parts at the airport to build the copter.

Edited February 23, 2023 by Ouch Quit It (see edit history)

[meganoth]

17 hours ago, Matt115 said:

Zombie in 7dtd =/= narrow corridor

 

I have no idea what that is supposed to mean.

 

17 hours ago, Matt115 said:

Do you know that flat POis? 4 floor flat.  so my observations -  zombies were getting inside and were going on staircase , some just was hitting random block near entres for some reasons? some just came to random apartaments and were hitting walls.  just part of them can to fight with me.

 

What has that to do with a horde night base?

 

17 hours ago, Matt115 said:

To be honest - for me ladder camping is just exploit. and it's just like death corridors in older alphas

 

I was not on a ladder when I had built a sniper tower. I was standing on the top of the tower looking down and shooting zombies in the head. Yes, it is a vertical death corridor but since a sniper weapon gives you exactly this capability to shoot through multiple zombies in a line it can hardly be called an exploit. I mean why add this perk power if you are not supposed to use it? By the way, building the tower so it works is not trivial and then using the tower in a horde night is not without danger either. So it isn't  just "exploitily" shooting fish in a barrel. But it is effective

 

17 hours ago, Matt115 said:

 

And yes wood spikes are much more effective - it's cheaper and trees are infinite - and yes - okay let's make dart traps, ammo for this + blade traps with gathering resources for this and check time ( this will be totaly RNG because depend how fast you will find parts) then cut trees and make 30 lines of spikes - making such lines will be much faster and cheaper.

 

A demo will go through  those wood spikes unhindered and destroy them, and surrounding your base with 30 lines of spikes is a massive amount of boring work. And since the spikes do not do much damage you still have to kill most of the zombies one by one with lots of ammo, especially glowies who will surely heal faster than the damage they get from the spikes.

 

Getting blade traps is not that expensive. It only would get expensive if I would try to plaster the same field with blade traps that you put spikes on. But that's the beauty of making the zombies follow your paths: You know where they run along and you place your traps at choke points. 

 

17 hours ago, Matt115 said:

For normal night you don't need shooting . just fix spikes at morning - and save ammo for blood moon.

 

What does a horde night base have to do with normal nights?

 

17 hours ago, Matt115 said:

i don't see sense of making  100% automatic system for blood moon. In factorio this have sense - you always making something - new lines, factories etc.  But here? if you set day per max minutes -  you would have rly boring 30-45 minutes of doing nothing. But then at least you can camp with hunting rifle and kill just vultures and range zombies

 

A 100% automatic system is just a hard to reach possibility if someone really wants to optimize for it, like starting a rocket per second in factorio. I never have built such a base, never even tried. And I didn't even talk about such a base.

 

What I am saying is that you plus a base that is optimized for your weapons and/or has lots of automated damage as well should by logic be more efficient than you alone.

And so I just don't believe you when you say that you play the most efficient way. You maybe play the most efficient way that you know.

   

Edited February 23, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Bobby Lee 298]

tier 6 stuff should be craftable only  Cough Cough imo

[Laz Man]

On 2/21/2023 at 7:58 PM, Blake_ said:

@Laz Man , could you give us a sense of the amount of "multiple POI paths" and POI submodules (tiny random variations, both in the street and inside while looting) of a21 vs a20?

 

Stuff like: Are they more abundant? Are they "better" than in a20? How are they better? Do they have easter eggs?

 

Tell us about caves. I'm a caveman, I love the topic. Will we get more caves for a21? 

 

Thanks beforearm.

 

Level design as far as player path is concerned, is mostly the same in A21 POIs when compared to A20.

 

Apart from new and overhauled POIs, all of the old ones should be updated with all of the new art assets, doors, and new shapes.  The world feels drastically more immersive further making it even harder to believe it is a fully destructible world.

 

Easter eggs?  Yes, there are quite a few new ones for players to find.

 

There are no new dedicated cave POIs, however, a few of the new POIs make use of terrain and water.  For example, one of the ranger stations I recently overhauled sits on top of a small mountain.

 

 

 

 

[Laz Man]

5 hours ago, Ouch Quit It said:

Laz ...why are runways an issue......they are only 1 block deep.....whats the max size of a tile again. You dont need a major airport....the country is dotted with small municipal and rural airports.......even some are in small runway communities with peoples garages as hangars. you have undriveable derelict cars...mnake a destroyed plane.....salvage parts or find parts at the airport to build the copter.

 

A Tile is 150x150 in size.  A believable run way imo would need to be at least 300m in length.

 

From an art perspective, I would imagine we would need destroyed airplane models, baggage carts, carousels, etc. just to name a few.

 

Basically a new category of art to support one brand new type of POI.  

 

Could we hodge podge some shapes together to create some of that? Perhaps, but not at the current standards our other categories are currently at.

 

Could still happen, just unlikely for 1.0 is all.  Game has been in dev for a long time already as is.

[Aldranon]

11 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

I don't say anything is impossible. I say it is normally far outside the realm of an indy game to have a foolproof AI. Players will usually find ways to exploit the AI, be it zombies (what we originally talked about) or bandits. Especially in a game where you can change the world freely to confuse the AI.

 

I really don't know what Faatal will make bandits do, or what some modder might do. I don't have the expectation of seeing the bandits act like in a team shooter that cost 80 Mio. to develop and has the advantage of a fixed terrain. But if it happens, I won't protest.

 

I am merely critizising how you look down on the "simple" zombie AI. It is far from simple to program it. And the other thing is that it should be exploitable to an extent. That is part of the fun for a new player (and even some veterans) to find new ways of making the zombies run into their doom. And sometimes die because the foolproof plan didn't go well when the player was too late opening the bridge.

 

Yes, I want zombies to follow clear rules for the most part. That is part of the tower defense genre that you have attackers who follow certain rules. And I want to optimizise your defenses according to these rules. How can I build an interesting "tower" if I don't know well before the attack how the attackers will react?

 

 

 

 

Tell me what you want the zombie AI to do if a bridge on the current path it tries to get to the player is closed and a different bridge is opened?

 

I didn't say anything about a foolproof AI (it's that "all or nothing" you have).

Also, I don't look down on the current AI (that's your strawman on what I'm trying to do)

 

I guess some lore on what the blood moon really is would be helpful, but missing that...

As zombie vision should be very poor to non-existent (it's the first sense that goes when people are dying) some zombies might go to the new bridge if its close.  Most would become enraged and attack the first bridge area for a while.  The blood moon might be goading (and/or guiding) the primitive "lizard brain" of the zombies to attack certain areas.

 

If the Blood Moon is an Intelligence that's trying to kill the player, the zombies might dig under the building as well.  But it's a game, so FUN must always win.

SO, with each bridge switch fewer and fewer zombies would go and just rage attack the walls.

 

Late game most people have literal tons of ammo.  I always thought BM hordes were to sink some of the extra ammo away from the players.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Bobby Lee 298 said:

tier 6 stuff should be craftable only  Cough Cough imo

 

Finding tier 6 weapons makes more sense as the player would need machinery at the level of late game ECO (survival game) to even have a chance at making one. 

Edited February 23, 2023 by Aldranon (see edit history)