Leveling speed in 19.5

[ungkor]

I know the intention was to slow down leveling in 19, but it seems pretty extreme to me.  

 

For instance, getting max intelligence to build the gyrocopter seems pretty daunting.   I'm level 44, and I can clear out an entire tier 5 building, and barely gain one skill point.  

 

Is the new strategy to max out a tree to get something, then use the 'forgetting exlir' to reset your points?  I'm considering that just to get the truck and gyro.  

[BFT2020]

you can always mod the game to give you more perks per level, not hard to do.

 

I don’t think TFP wanted people to be able to perk in everything they wanted early game, it is all about making choices.  So if you concentrate in strength, the other areas won’t be as strong and you will have to adjust to make up for them.

[Lenny Lettuce Lips]

I feel like this depends entirely on how you play the game. My wife and I nailed down two 4x4's and a gyro without ever speccing into it. Between quests and trader buys and grinding, we've never been out of enough money to swing what we needed. 

If you want to get so far as to produce them yourself, it's end game stuff, it isn't meant to be easy. I can't ever figure out how this game is supposed to feel fair but also like a survival game, but also something else that people critique of it. 

Not trying to sound harsh at all, and maybe my hours are showing; you can get a gyro without ever spending a point in intelligence should you focus on it. Hit the local Pass-N-Gas spots at higher gamestages and you'll find parts or schematics. The traders fill the rest, typically. You can always make the end result vehicle without having the levels required to make one from scratch (Thank you TFP), so save those parts!

[SylenThunder]

1 hour ago, Lenny Lettuce Lips said:

I feel like this depends entirely on how you play the game. My wife and I nailed down two 4x4's and a gyro without ever speccing into it. Between quests and trader buys and grinding, we've never been out of enough money to swing what we needed. 

Yep, basically this.  We focus on books, hardware, and automotive stores straight off, while another goes mining and scavenging. What items we miss can usually be filled by a few trader visits. We are usually donning motorbikes by day 10 or so, and have a gyro shortly after.  No need to spend points in leveling the perks for it.

[Viktoriusiii]

I feel like that is a problem though.
I feel like if you skill purely in one skill (for example int) you should reach every recipe pretty quickly.

I said before that exponential leveling is a bad idea for anyone interested in grinding.
I don't have anything against... lets say... 50.000.000 xp for lvl 300 (maybe more last time I played was early 19).
But the current number is more than 100x larger.

Yes they want us to start a new game.
But all the players that play like me (aka not the hardcores) play it once.
They do not want to lose their progress.
Don't force players to start a new game. I am very happy that you implemented the forgettin elixyr. But that only makes me question the design even more.

If you don't allow max level so ppl have to start a new game to experience other paths, btu you don't have to start a new game...
What is the point?
(but seeing how TFPs have reacted in the past, rather than lower levelrequirements, they will remove the elixyr again :D)

[Roland]

Simply change the xp earnings to 300% in the options menu and you will level faster. No modding know how required. 

[BFT2020]

3 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

Yes they want us to start a new game.
But all the players that play like me (aka not the hardcores) play it once.
They do not want to lose their progress.
Don't force players to start a new game. I am very happy that you implemented the forgettin elixyr. But that only makes me question the design even more.

And this is the issue (not what TFP has done, but what you are expecting).

 

TFP has a vision for their game, and you stated it perfectly.  They want players to replay the game if they want to try new things.

 

You want to play it once and get to try everything you want.  That is your vision, but it is not the vision of TFP.

 

It doesn't make TFP's vision wrong or bad or anything like that.  It just means that you and them have different goals.

 

Fortunatetly, you can change the game to the way you want to play it.  You are not being force to do anything if you just take the time to mod the game (or find a like minded person to do the modding for you) to get the vision you want.

[BFT2020]

2 hours ago, Roland said:

Simply change the xp earnings to 300% in the options menu and you will level faster. No modding know how required. 

True, but that also speeds up the gamestage.  Some people may not want that, which is why I will default to modding first.

[Viktoriusiii]

2 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

It doesn't make TFP's vision wrong or bad or anything like that.  It just means that you and them have different goals.

Weeeell... yes and no.
A new playthrough needs variety. 7D2D does not offer that on a new game.
There are no new choices, no new enemies, no new strategies even, that you couldn't do with the old game.
If they implement story and so on, sure, maybe they can change it back to the xp they have now...

Rant:

Spoiler

But right now (ever since the levelgating update that brought them a whopping 32% in a time where every other game was gaining 10% or more on steam because of an event), there is ZERO benefit to starting a new game.
Yes if you like the start, sure. You could simply slow down progress in the options (there is no option for xp requirement. and 20 years of constant farming /3 is still 7 years of farming xp to get to max level xD).
And besides some really hardcore fans, nobody restarts the game just for fun.

That is not why you play a sandbox builder.
You play as long as you have fun, stop playing, come back months or years later and start anew.

That i what people do. If you think otherwise, I am sorry but you are wrong. This is actually one of the few times where I don't even feel the need to site any sources (which I usually do), because it is that obvious (and I don't think studies exist on this issue, otherwise I would have found something).


Games you can restart:
RPGs with choices.
Campaigns with choices
basicially anything where you could have done something different (still needs to be different enough to warrent a new playthrough)

games you don't restart (if you are not a hardcore fan that ignores all the thousands of great games to continue playing one single game):
games that need massive amounts of farming and that do not include choices to make.

 

[Boidster]

8 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

I don't have anything against... lets say... 50.000.000 xp for lvl 300 (maybe more last time I played was early 19).
But the current number is more than 100x larger.

 

I do not think this is a true statement. A19.3 progression XML sez:

 

<level max_level="300" exp_to_level="10000" experience_multiplier="1.05" skill_points_per_level="1" clamp_exp_cost_at_level="60">

 

The cumulative XP to get to level 60 is 3.02M and level 60 itself requires 186791. XP per level is clamped at that point, so total XP to level 300 is:

 

3.02M + (240 x 186791) = ~45 million XP

 

(Edit to add: I checked 19.6 as well - numbers are identical)

 

Edited October 19, 2021 by Boidster (see edit history)

[meganoth]

3 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

Weeeell... yes and no.
A new playthrough needs variety. 7D2D does not offer that on a new game.
There are no new choices, no new enemies, no new strategies even, that you couldn't do with the old game.
If they implement story and so on, sure, maybe they can change it back to the xp they have now...

Rant:

  Hide contents

But right now (ever since the levelgating update that brought them a whopping 32% in a time where every other game was gaining 10% or more on steam because of an event), there is ZERO benefit to starting a new game.
Yes if you like the start, sure. You could simply slow down progress in the options (there is no option for xp requirement. and 20 years of constant farming /3 is still 7 years of farming xp to get to max level xD).
And besides some really hardcore fans, nobody restarts the game just for fun.

That is not why you play a sandbox builder.
You play as long as you have fun, stop playing, come back months or years later and start anew.

That i what people do. If you think otherwise, I am sorry but you are wrong. This is actually one of the few times where I don't even feel the need to site any sources (which I usually do), because it is that obvious (and I don't think studies exist on this issue, otherwise I would have found something).


Games you can restart:
RPGs with choices.
Campaigns with choices
basicially anything where you could have done something different (still needs to be different enough to warrent a new playthrough)

games you don't restart (if you are not a hardcore fan that ignores all the thousands of great games to continue playing one single game):
games that need massive amounts of farming and that do not include choices to make.

 

 

I think 7D2d provides something different to do with the 5 classes aka attributes. Playing a miner instead of a farmer is a big difference ONLY at start of the game, when you already swim in food, garden plots and materials in end game nobody cares anymore whether he has perked much into it or not, it is just something to be done once in a while. Strategies differ when you play agi/stealth instead of strength instead of Int.

 

And sure, one could first get fully perked in strength, then turn to say Perception to try that out as well. But then he would need to poke advanced zombies with unperked spear, not a good idea! He would never need to use a hunting rifle. He would not need any of the utility perks of Perception anymore (Lucky looter, for what? Mechanicalthingy, for what? So whats the use? This would not be someone playing perception, this would be someone just collecting perk points without ever needing the benefit from it. 

 

Now maybe my friends and myself (and all the other people in this forum who largely seem not to play one game forever) are the only ones who do so. But then the game is made for us. As far as I hear, everyone here restarts once they reached a certain level. You don't? Ok, but to know what the rest of the players do we would still need someone measuring it. I don't just believe you even if you are sure about it

 

 

   

 

[Roland]

@Viktoriusiii admits he's only played the game once. So any of his thoughts about how replayable the game is on a second or third or fourth playthrough is purely speculative on his part. That the game can't be played in different ways and has zero to offer on a second playthrough is just theory to him.

 

Now, I've talked to a lot of people who have played through this game more than once and so I've been able to hear about their actual experiences with the replay value of this game and what they have to say is completely the opposites of Vik's conjectures and thought exercises on the subject. I too have restarted many times and found new experiences and fun situations often during those replays and there are still ways of playing I have not tried yet.

 

I think the source of information is important when evaluating the worth of that information and I'm going to believe actual experiences of gamers who have played and replayed this game over the hypothesis of a one play wonder.

 

I also believe that the ever increasing player base over 8 years is mostly made up of people who are not playing for the first time so I seriously doubt his assertion that most people play the game once and done. If once and done was true, the steam charts would show us far far below what it has been. I think Subnautica is a game where most play once and then they're done and you can see it in the play history compared to our game. Subnautica has been every bit as popular as 7 Days and when it went gold had a spike in plays that went beyond our best day. And yet because people play through it once, their numbers are low--representing new players. Our numbers have steadily risen because we get new players + old players continue to replay. We KNOW people are replaying because everyone MUST restart every alpha update. So I truly believe that most people are replaying this game and not simply playing it once and not seeing any reason to restart. And even though I am so certain that I am right about this I DID provide some evidence for people to look at and consider.

 

 

 

Edited October 19, 2021 by Roland (see edit history)

[BFT2020]

3 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

Weeeell... yes and no.
A new playthrough needs variety. 7D2D does not offer that on a new game.
There are no new choices, no new enemies, no new strategies even, that you couldn't do with the old game.
If they implement story and so on, sure, maybe they can change it back to the xp they have now...

I don't know many games where you do everything you possibly can do in one playthrough, then provide a completely different playthrough once you go that route.

 

I play Fallout 4 all the way through (DLCs and all).  I play it again, unmodded.  Same difference.  There are no new enemies.  The system is the same.  No new variety.  So is it bad?  Is there nothing else I can do on this new playthrough other than using mods?  No, there is plenty of different things I can do.

 

I can change the SPECIAL stats and do different perks (same thing as 7D2D).  I can go from using rifles to using laser weapons (same thing as 7D2D, not laser weapons, just different classes of weapons).  I can turn one settlement into my base and ignore all others vs building up each one I take over (in 7D2D, I can build my own base from scratch or change any of the various POIs into my base, knowing that there will be differences).  For 7D2D, I can change my strategy on how I defend on BM nights.  I can rely mostly on traps or I can mostly do explosives and melee or I can go in guns blazing.  Sometimes I am successfull, sometimes the zombies are eating my liver as a snack.

 

If you play through the game where you use everything and unlock everything, then nothing the game designer can do to make a second playthrough different than the first one.  You have done it all already.  If your goal is to unlock everything in your playthrough, then it won't matter on the next playthroughs as you have already done it before.

[Roland]

4 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

I play Fallout 4 all the way through (DLCs and all).  I play it again, unmodded.  Same difference.  There are no new enemies.  The system is the same.  No new variety.  So is it bad?  Is there nothing else I can do on this new playthrough other than using mods?  No, there is plenty of different things I can do.

 

I could go outside tonight and play a game of kickball and have a blast even though the rules and conditions have been the same since I was in grade school. A game theory that requires subsequent plays of a game have completely new experiences is extremely faulty. 7 Days pits us competitively against the game. It is very akin to a sport game. The blood moon hordes make it so but so does everything that works against us. It is our progression vs the game's gamestage progression and whether we can stay ahead of the curve. There are ways to mod the game to make that curve a tougher opponent if we wish.

 

I suggested upping the xp earning to 300% and someone stated that it would also affect the gamestage. That's a good thing. It keeps the gamestage progression curve tough to pace which makes for a good game. Just increasing the skillpoints each level up would destroy the competition that the game evokes between it and us.

 

This game is good on replays much the same way that a pickup game of Basketball is always fun even though you aren't adding stilts or trampolines or multiple balls or differently shaped courts, or katanas on subsequent plays -- supposedly needing something to make those replays interesting.

[Whorhay]

Top end vehicles seems like more of an early to mid game thing if you're going all into Intelligence. Maybe the difference is people buying all the perks as soon as possible in their attribute tree. In my current game I'm almost to day 70 with 60 minute days, am level 82, and have gotten to 9+1 Int, 9+1 Str, and 6 Fort. My points are focused in each of those trees to get the things I specifically wanted sooner rather than later. I did Str first, then Int, and am working up Fort now. The only cheese I've done so far has been logging out and back in on horde nights to get a fight that goes to dawn, that should really be an option in the menus. It doesn't seem like a particular challenge to get to 10 in anyone attribute.

[Maharin]

9 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

Weeeell... yes and no.
A new playthrough needs variety. 7D2D does not offer that on a new game.
There are no new choices, no new enemies, no new strategies even, that you couldn't do with the old game.
If they implement story and so on, sure, maybe they can change it back to the xp they have now...

 

Well, the variety is playing it through again with different choices/order for skill trees.  You could even try playing through without ever spending a skill point to see how far you can get.  You can play with different rules for yourself, like no scopes or not using traders.  There are LOTS of ways to play this game that will make it feel different with each new game.  But you do have to want that.

 

Sure, if you have 5000+ hours played then it can be tough to get that "new" feeling on a play through but most people aren't at that point.

[ungkor]

"My wife and I nailed down two 4x4's and a gyro without ever speccing into it. Between quests and trader buys and grinding, we've never been out of enough money to swing what we needed. "

 

It seems like there are two paths in this game that are in flux:  leveling up to get things, versus questing and raiding to get things based on random chance.

 

I guess that some of us prefer the former, and some of us prefer the later.  

[SylenThunder]

12 hours ago, Roland said:

And yet because people play through it once, their numbers are low--representing new players.

Yep.  Twice I went back to play it again. Didn't make it past two hours before I got tired of it and dropped it. There isn't enough variation in goals.  Same thing with The Forest. Was great the first time though, but doesn't really have any replay-ability.

[meganoth]

2 hours ago, ungkor said:

"My wife and I nailed down two 4x4's and a gyro without ever speccing into it. Between quests and trader buys and grinding, we've never been out of enough money to swing what we needed. "

 

It seems like there are two paths in this game that are in flux:  leveling up to get things, versus questing and raiding to get things based on random chance.

 

I guess that some of us prefer the former, and some of us prefer the later.  

 

You make it sound like there was a point in the game where you would need to commit to one path and thats it. But in reality you can change your path at any time in the game and you have lots of possibilites even if you want a dependable result:

 

Either one of you maxes out INT to get the recipes from the get-go, or you get them through creative menue, or you get them through a forgettin elixier, or you simply decide the gyro is not the goal of the game and you don't need it. (If you ask what the goal of the game is, the game isn't finished yet, there will be a goal for people needing a goal).

 

Just playing without INT and saving money for the elixier while always looking out for the recipes or gyro parts is in fact a strategy that does NOT depend on chance because in a very limited time frame everyone can get enough money in this game for the elixir.

 

 

 

[Viktoriusiii]

17 hours ago, Boidster said:

I do not think this is a true statement. A19.3 progression XML sez:

[...]

Thx... maybe I have just missed when they reduced this. I know in A17 (and I think 18 as well, since I never really played 17) it was a number so big, that you couldn't even cheat it. (you'd need tousands or more console xp gains with max possible xp)
If they cleaned it up, good! 45Million is still a whole bunch, but at least it can be reached within months of farming, not decades xD

*edit* I just looked it up... as far as I can tell, the XP needed was between 155.000.000.000 and 455.000.000.000 (there was an argument if incriments had to be stopped because of integer limits, but no confirmation)
*editedit* it SEEMS like the limiter was introduced in A18... if so I have forgotten about it. My b.

 

15 hours ago, Roland said:

@Viktoriusiii admits he's only played the game once. [...]

You should know better. We all come back every alpha, because there is new stuff to do. New stuff to see.
But that is exactly my point. We all play it once and come back after months for the new alpha.

And thx for pointing out that subnautica thing.
That is a REALLY good example of my point.
No choices. A lot of grind. Nothing new.
OBVIOUSLY nobody will play it again.

Now take something where story is actually a choice. (and it matters, not like those telltale games that pretend it matters)
THOSE are the games ppl replay after finishing it.

Nobody (except hardcores, again. There is always an audience) goes "hey I've just built my minecraftbase for 100 hours and beat the enderdragon, lets just start a new world and start from scratch!"
Either they mod it or they leave the game for months/years to come back to it.


If people wanted to restart 7d2d from scratch, be my guest. Everyone plays games differently. But to basicially tell you (my whole point was based on that ridicoulus xp number that you could never gain, not the new one that just requires a lot of farming) "nope! if you want something else, start a new game" is a bad practice.

Which is why I applauded them when they introduced the fergetin' elixir.
I still want to have an all powerful character. Basicially I am not a min-maxer, I am a maxer
I want to have everything done in my gone. I like to completely finish a game.
So artificially telling me "nope you can never do it! F*** you!" is like the worst thing you could say
Like... if you have a skilltree, you best make sure that it is possible to gain every skill (if it is not pvp).

BUT all this is basicially mute because I was arguing from a false pretense. Since we can now reach lvl 300, everything I said is only theoreticially valid.

Edited October 20, 2021 by Viktoriusiii (see edit history)

[outhous]

1 hour ago, Viktoriusiii said:

You should know better. We all come back every alpha, because there is new stuff to do. New stuff to see.
But that is exactly my point. We all play it once and come back after months for the new alpha.

Who is this "We" you speak of? I usually do 3 to 6 playthroughs per alpha, true I am off playing Valheim at the moment. To mix it up, I change which Skill Tree I focus on, I do a playthrough with friends, a no trader playthrough. There a a number of ways to enjoy this game multiple times. 

[Roland]

1 hour ago, outhous said:

Who is this "We" you speak of? I usually do 3 to 6 playthroughs per alpha

 

"we" are all the normal regular video game players who only play through a game once and done and who obviously and overwhelmingly = practically everyone.

 

YOU are a hardcore 7 Days fan who plays it over and over and over and over and over again. And you and Roland plus maybe a dozen others are the only ones who do this.

 

This is so self-evident that there is no need for evidence.

[Roland]

4 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

And thx for pointing out that subnautica thing.
That is a REALLY good example of my point.
No choices. A lot of grind. Nothing new.
OBVIOUSLY nobody will play it again.

 

But, to my point, the big difference that I see between Subnautica and 7 Days to Die is that Subnautica is more of a story that you play through and once you reach the end you would just be playing through the same story. 7 Days to Die is more of a field upon which you compete against the progression curve of the game and every 7 days against a zombie onslaught. Like any field game there are a myriad of strategies you can employ and random factors will cause unforeseen events to take place that will necessitate adaptation. This competititon feels different every time much the same way as a new game of chess or soccer feels different every time-- even though the rules and the gameplay are the same every time.

 

Valheim is very much like 7 Days to Die in this regard. But Valheim has a big barrier to restarting that 7 Days does not: "Learn by Doing". It is extremely tough to want to start over in Valheim knowing you will need to grind back up all the skills by doing specific actions-- some of which you may not enjoy all that much (Thank goodness they changed it so you no longer have to click the mouse button for each and every chop...). It is a daunting idea to start out once again at zero skills knowing all the forced grinding that lies ahead of you. 7 Days to Die is easier to restart because you can play however you want and apply the xp points wherever you want. So you can spend your time doing preferred activities and still get your skills up in those areas you'd rather not grind.

 

I believe that there are more people who are rolling new worlds and replaying 7 Days from the beginning than you give credit AND I think it is happening a lot more often than at each forced update restart. If not so, I believe that the 7 Days graph would look like the Subnautica graph with high spikes like Subnautica's gold launch spike and then almost immediate return to minimal players playing mostly representative of new people purchasing the game and doing their one playthrough. But it isn't that way for 7 Days to Die-- Especially since A17 and the end of Learn By Doing which was a barrier to wanting to start fresh and have to re-grind all the skills by doing those particular actions. You can see the increased overall activity since A17 and also you can see that the drop after each update is much less significant. It seems unlikely that these recorded plays are overwhelmingly players just playing one playthrough and then leaving until the next update. It seems more likely that many are replaying multiple runs. In fact, a very common question that we see on the forums when a new update is believed to be close is: "Do you think I have time to start over and do another run before the next update comes out?"

Edited October 20, 2021 by Roland (see edit history)

[theFlu]

23 minutes ago, Roland said:

Valheim is very much like 7 Days to Die in this regard. But Valheim has a big barrier to restarting that 7 Days does not: "Learn by Doing".

I've played a few rounds of Valheim, so I'm not exactly an expert in it, but I don't think the main barrier in it is the LBD. To be honest, it is one of the rare games where the skill system doesn't seem to encourage me to level up anything.. I just don't care of the values, they don't seem to provide tangible benefits - not over damage types and the general progression. I do try not to die, but if I do, the skill point loss doesn't even factor in emotionally.

 

The biggest issue for me with a new play of Valheim is its entirely linear progression. Even the entire second round felt like "All right, next I'll have to grind 200 of <this thing> to progress." There's no reason or purpose to do anything differently, base design is mainly just aesthetics due to the combat being what it is, and so on..

 

Don't get me wrong, Valheim is a nice game, but the replay issues are in its utter linearity.

[Roland]

1 minute ago, theFlu said:

Don't get me wrong, Valheim is a nice game, but the replay issues are in its utter linearity.

 

I suppose replay issues for any game lie in those areas that a particular player dislikes re-experiencing. For you going through the same lineup of bosses and biomes and knowing what you will have to grind to do each is blech and for me it is grinding up the same LBD skills.