Traders: why to diminish them and how

[pApA^LeGBa]

Are we playing different games? Raw materials? You mean like forged steel they sometimes have for a price that is way too high? And 24 or maybe 32 bars if you are lucky? What do i do with such a small amount?

 

 

Or the tiny amounts of ammo/gunpowder or casings? Seriously they do have materials, but only in such small amounts for really high prices. Better of grinding them instead of trying to get tokens to buy them. 

 

By the time i can actually buy decent armor and weapons from the trader, i can either make them myself or i have already looted them and in early game i am good with what i find. An nope, not on easy mode. 50mins, survivalist.

 

Books, potatoes, corn, mushrooms  and later on the crucible is what they are actually good for. In MP food for early game even if it is fkn expensive.

 

What really needs to go are those quests. Or rather the rewards need to be balanced. If you do a a few quests, you can be sure to have enough pipebombs for hordenight on day 7 usually.  

Edited April 27, 2021 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[VegetarianZombie]

On 4/25/2021 at 6:18 PM, BFT2020 said:

You can do this, nobody is forcing you to use the traders.  Using or ignorng traders is player choice.

God do I hate stupid posts like these. I am sure I will get in trouble for saying that but why do people always have to act like they are trying to be smart and make stupid smug smarmy posts like this and ignore the entire discussion of the topic that is about making something about the game better.

On 4/25/2021 at 10:21 PM, Roland said:

Well, the guy he was responding to was calling for a complete removal of quests and I have to agree that people who want the quests completely removed should try a playthrough without them to just make sure they like the game without them.

I have been playing the game since alpha 8, it was much better before the trader quests. I also loved the 0,0 hub cities in random gen from a long while ago. Good try though.

[pApA^LeGBa]

2 minutes ago, VegetarianZombie said:

God do I hate stupid posts like these. I am sure I will get in trouble for saying that but why do people always have to act like they are trying to be smart and make stupid smug smarmy posts like this and ignore the entire discussion of the topic that is about making something about the game better.

 

It might not be the case for everyone that this would make the game better. That´s just an opinion.

[VegetarianZombie]

That's totally fine, it is fine to disagree and give a good reason. It is not fine to make an idiotic post saying it is a "choice" though when for people who actually play the game and pay attention to the discussion realize the strength of trader quest rewards and the crap of regular rewards (which I literally mentioned in my post) means its not really an option if you want to play the game anywhere near optimally and for me fun, since I am a loot goblin type player and getting stone tools and blunderbuss for hours and hours of playing and looting is not fun.

[Jost Amman]

11 minutes ago, VegetarianZombie said:

On 4/26/2021 at 1:18 AM, BFT2020 said:

You can do this, nobody is forcing you to use the traders.  Using or ignorng traders is player choice.

God do I hate stupid posts like these. I am sure I will get in trouble for saying that but why do people always have to act like they are trying to be smart and make stupid smug smarmy posts like this and ignore the entire discussion of the topic that is about making something about the game better.

I agree with the sentiment, but not with the way you expressed it.

32 minutes ago, Roland said:

The problem is for those who do that and then don't understand the ramifications, and then complain about how soon the game is over or how it gets too hard too fast and then they want the balance changed so that the game works best when you spam the quests because, no matter what, they are going to continue to spam and speed run the quests even if the end result is a game state they aren't satisfied with.

I don't think the game should be balanced around people who can't control themselves.

It's like saying that since some people can't stop spam eating cookies, you'll be removing sugar from them to void them getting caries. 

 

I know this same logic has been applied in the past to (e.g.) LBD, but in this case, I think we would be stretching it too far.

[Roland]

9 minutes ago, VegetarianZombie said:

I have been playing the game since alpha 8, it was much better before the trader quests. I also loved the 0,0 hub cities in random gen from a long while ago. Good try though.

 

Good try? If the game was so much better without trader quests then you must be ignoring the trader quests right? If not, why not? Why would you knowingly choose to do something that makes the game worse for you? I absolutely agree that doing too much questing makes the game worse for me so, guess what? I don't do too much questing. I do the right amount that feels natural-- like what I might actually do living in a world instead of speed running a video game-- and that works for me.

 

And, it doesn't require the developers to remove quests or limit the number of quests available for anyone else. If you are convinced that for you the game was way better before quests came along then there is only one person to blame for having less than the time of your life when you know how you like playing. Stop torturing yourself with quests just because they are there and are a fast track for progressing your character.

 

So my "attempt" is actually the fix. Ignore the quests for a playthrough and just see if you like it better. If you do, then play that way. If you don't then stop complaining about how quests have ruined the game. For me, quests are fun and a definite improvement for the game because I know how I like to play and I'm not concerned about getting to level x before day y at all.

[VegetarianZombie]

7 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

I don't think the game should be balanced around people who can't control themselves.

It's like saying that since some people can't stop spam eating cookies, you'll be removing sugar from them to void them getting caries. 

I am sorry but that is one of the most absurd ways to talk bad about a players style of playing (looting) that I have seen in a while. It is like complaining about people who can't "control themselves" when they want to play permadeath or can't "control themselves" when they want to play with barely any zombies. It actually makes no sense. Besides my main part of the argument wasn't even the looting it was the endless driving back and forth if you want to do traders quests especially late game when you want to refresh POI or plenty of other reasons. You could have other ways to do quests not tied to driving between traders and POI hell there are already non-trader quests in the game and they could be expanded.

[Jost Amman]

6 minutes ago, VegetarianZombie said:

I am sorry but that is one of the most absurd ways to talk bad about a players style of playing (looting) that I have seen in a while. It is like complaining about people who can't "control themselves" when they want to play permadeath or can't "control themselves" when they want to play with barely any zombies. It actually makes no sense. Besides my main part of the argument wasn't even the looting it was the endless driving back and forth if you want to do traders quests especially late game when you want to refresh POI or plenty of other reasons. You could have other ways to do quests not tied to driving between traders and POI hell there are already non-trader quests in the game and they could be expanded.

Duh? Are you sure you quoted the right person?

I wasn't talking about you or anyone's play style... why would you think that?

 

Looting is fun and fine.

I was just talking about people who want to "binge-quest" using the trader: I'm simply saying it's their choice and the game shouldn't be balanced around them. 

[VegetarianZombie]

2 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

Good try? If the game was so much better without trader quests then you must be ignoring the trader quests right? If not, why not? Why would you knowingly choose to do something that makes the game worse for you? 

I literally laid it out and other people did too, the reward discrepancy for a old school type of playthrough with no traders or a playthrough with traders quests and their reward is night and day. What if I want interesting loot and rewards? And what if I want to refresh a POI later on in the game?

 

You know what I will just come out and say it, in my opinion the most stupid change to the game in a while was hard-tying the rewards to gamestage to try and limit player power, especially early on. They could of just limited the ammo since in all my previous playthroughs that is what actually broke the game. When they made almost every house a dungeon with that stupid loot loaded metal trunk (hopefully you know what I am talking about) at the end I was ending up with chests full of ammo without ever crafting a single one, it wasn't that early 1 quality AK or LMG that broke the game, it was the fact that from day 7 or at worst 14 I could go absolutely ham with the ammo for for those weapons.

 

What is the point of quality 1 or 2 weapons anyway now when you can't even get them since its loot type limited to things like stone tools, bows, and blunderbuss? Wasn't the point of low quality weapons to be what limited you early on? It doesn't make sense. Then the last time I played through I had chests and chests of ammo but no weapon to shoot them because the loot was limited, then when I reached day 21 and got an AK (not from a trader since I was avoiding them but because gamestage finally caught up) I had literal mountains of ammo that I had stockpiled and the game lost all challenge since I could go absolutely crazy with all the ammo.

 

I say do what Chapelle said to do, make bullets expensive.

2 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

Duh? Are you sure you quoted the right person?

I wasn't talking about you or anyone's play style... why would you think that?

Oh all right my bad then, I thought in that context you were taking a jab at the looter type of playstyle and obviously took it personal (because as I said *points at self* loot goblin). My apologies.

[FA_Q2]

13 hours ago, Crater Creator said:

 

If they ever implement the blueprints system they've talked about, this would be a great application of it.  The roaming food truck traders could provide a baseline: a way to have traders before any would-be trader bases are ready for them to move in.

 

 

It does seem boring that the "special missions" don't have you running goods from one trader to the other.  I mean, relaying the message that "Our Dukes are shiny" really sounds like a placeholder.  Surely that'll be replaced with, say, delivering White River supplies from one trader to the other.  Those are already implemented in a way that you don't have to worry about the player stealing them to re-sell or use themselves.

I would prefer a system where you actually could steal the items (and they should be good ones) at the expense of keeping the trader happy or even trading with you.  Perhaps not being able to trade with that trader for a week or increasing the cost of future purchases until the money is made back by the trader + some percentage.

 

Just think there is more you could do there.  You get in a tight spot and think, well I *could* use that ak the trader is having me deliver but it is gona cost me.

[Roland]

56 minutes ago, VegetarianZombie said:

You know what I will just come out and say it, in my opinion the most stupid change to the game in a while was hard-tying the rewards to gamestage to try and limit player power, especially early on. They could of just limited the ammo since in all my previous playthroughs that is what actually broke the game. When they made almost every house a dungeon with that stupid loot loaded metal trunk (hopefully you know what I am talking about) at the end I was ending up with chests full of ammo without ever crafting a single one, it wasn't that early 1 quality AK or LMG that broke the game, it was the fact that from day 7 or at worst 14 I could go absolutely ham with the ammo for for those weapons.

 

Its more like the stupid move was to only halfway finish the loot overhaul. In A20 the pipe weapons use regular ammo and appear in loot so already most of your complaint is going to be fixed. You will use up ammo and the pipe weapons are interesting and once they get gamestage modifiers to locations there will be a lot more choices for interesting loot. They just did not get it all done so we are playing with a half-done feature.

[FA_Q2]

5 hours ago, Roland said:

 

There are xp rich activities that if spammed will propel your gamestage faster than you can keep up. Killing every zombie you encounter and triggering screamer hordes to kill as many zombies as you can is an example of xp-rich activities that will cause the gamestage to possibly outpace you. I'd say that spamming quests as opposed to simply scavenging POIs on your own is also towards that end of the spectrum. Remember that your bonus reward is not just cash and gear but it is also XP on top of what you earned as you did the quest. Speed running quests is going to ratchet up your gamestage-- possibly faster than you may be comfortable with on horde night or if ferals and radiated start popping up before you are prepared for them.

 

Getting back to topic...How would you solve the problem of spammed quests? Even if the trader travels you will still have a marker to return to him to gain your reward. What's to stop you from taking a new quest right away? Would you not get a location to return for that quest and have to find the trader to turn in your package for your reward? I don' think that would go over very well. The only way to stop quest spamming is to limit how many can be done per day. Some people will not like that restriction.

Like I said before, time.  To be honest, if you are running 3+ quests a day though you have broken away from what the game is encouraging to maximizing rewards and, as you have pointed out, balance is not made based on that playstyle.  1-2 though seems like something that is generally encouraged and does not require actually trying to maximize anything.

 

We already have time limiting our quest spamming ability, you just do not have enough time to complete 10 quests a day.  With a mobile trader, it is unlikely you are going to burn through a lot of quests because you have to locate the trader first.  There does not need to be a pointer either, just find the trader again (any or any that belong to that faction if we had those) and then you can turn it in.  Other methods should be involved too that I think need to happen if traders are changed or not.  For instance, all quest POI's or POI's that have a treasure room should have a minimum of 3 variants.  We are not talking about massive changes to the individual POIs but extremely small and minor changes that change the destination room and path.  That way, any POI you are going to go loot, you may end up on the roof or in the basement.  It would make approaching POI's after the first time more variant and less like a dash to the loot room whilst still giving you the universal destructive environment.  Hey they could use the change to get rid of those silly lights someone leaves all over every single poi to tell you exactly where to go 😛

 

 

That would make speed running a poi more difficult without artificial barriers or even targeting that type of playstyle.  You could still speedrun as well, only a few variants and knowing the general layout does not change, but at that point the game is not encouraging it, you are doing it because you simply like doing it.  The average player is going to do more searching.  It gives the rest of us a reason to dig around a little more in POI's that are well known to us as well as there will be a lot more variance with minimal work.  It is far simpler to relocate 50 or so blocks than it is to design a POI.  

 

Most importantly, this change would, IMHO, be a positive change that really has nothing to do with limiting quests or scaling the benefits back but rather adds something to the game and has those effects as add ons.  Also it would be something that would not take a tremendous amount of effort.

 

Unfortunately I do not see them doing that though as most POI's are not envisioned with branching possible routs.  It is still possible but I would have expected to see different approaches taken if that is what they had in mind.

19 hours ago, Crater Creator said:

 

I do like the idea of having expensive items that are out of reach now, but that the player can aspire to obtain later.  It gives the player a goal - something to work towards - beyond an explicit quest to go here and do this.  And to be fair, the game has this to a fair degree now.  It's somewhat dampened by the 3-day loot refresh, though.  Still, I think the sheer number of items for sale is worth addressing in its own right.  A trader shouldn't have more than a dozen melee weapons to choose from (keeping in mind it's rolled separately for each player).  As I've said before in other contexts, too much luxury of choice tends to work against the sense of it being a survival game.

Bah, expensive items just means they are trivial to get later.  I HATE the fact that there are items located behind walls like the trader.  I am forced as a player to max my intel AND use traders because one of my favorite areas to explore in the game is setting up complex electrical designs/traps and solar is the pinnacle of that.  I want to use solar on my base and that necessitates all kinds of other crap that I may not want to get into.

 

This is not an area of '10% more efficient' either.  It is locking me out of any contact with solar.  I hope the remove anything that is trader specific, solar should be hard to get and rare but it should not necessitate use of the trader.

39 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

Its more like the stupid move was to only halfway finish the loot overhaul. In A20 the pipe weapons use regular ammo and appear in loot so already most of your complaint is going to be fixed. You will use up ammo and the pipe weapons are interesting and once they get gamestage modifiers to locations there will be a lot more choices for interesting loot. They just did not get it all done so we are playing with a half-done feature.

Ah, the problems with complaining about alpha.

 

Sometimes us players forget that features 'suck' because they are not realized yet and there is nothing that the devs can do to fix that aside from not having open alpha.

Edited April 27, 2021 by FA_Q2 (see edit history)

[FA_Q2]

8 hours ago, Crater Creator said:

 

I guess we'll see.  It seems obligatory at this point that the game will have bandits and a story before it goes gold.  If they renege on those things, I'd think the fallout would be astoundingly bad.  Most of the other stuff, like faction reputation, is seen as a logical outgrowth of how they'd do bandits and a story.

 

I can't overstate how encouraged I am by the implications of that screenshot I reposted.  First, on a technical level it makes my idea for these food truck-style traders more feasible.  It can be built mostly on existing art and programming.  Secondly, it's an example of something TFP are still massively overhauling/improving, despite fears that the game was getting too close to completion and RWG would be finalized as 'good enough'.  That gives me hope that traders, too, could still get a proper revision to deal with their deeper shortcomings, and not just a balance pass.

Obligatory is a strong word.  I have no doubts they are going to release a solid product, I think the product is solid right now.  I have very strong doubts that either an actual story is going to make it or bandits though.  As I said I would not be upset with the devs though if the finished product lacked them and, dare I say it, I think the average player is much closer to where I am than to what you are talking about.  The majority would not even know there were other plans let alone care.  I could, of course, be very wrong but those are some major additions and they seem to be winding down to finishing things already there rather than implementing advanced changes.  Sure, the changes to the RWG are major BUT that was always in the cards.  The RWG has needed a real overhaul since its inception and there was never any question from the devs that it was going to get some love at some point.  I guess we will see.  I hope you are correct but us forum dwellers tend to forget how tiny a portion of the player base actually is and how different our perceptions of the game become because of that.

 

iirc, A18 or 19 was, at one point, suppose to be the final alpha.  Now we are talking bout a21.  not sure how many major changes are left that are actually going to be made.  

[Survager]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

 

You will use up ammo and the pipe weapons are interesting and once they get gamestage modifiers to locations there will be a lot more choices for interesting loot. They just did not get it all done so we are playing with a half-done feature.

 

Wait wait wait @Roland!
Will A20 add game stage modifiers for locations? This will be done not only for biomes ???
I really hope that you are not mistaken and the POIs will have different game stage modifiers!

Edited April 27, 2021 by Survager (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

12 minutes ago, FA_Q2 said:

Obligatory is a strong word.  I have no doubts they are going to release a solid product, I think the product is solid right now.  I have very strong doubts that either an actual story is going to make it or bandits though. 

They've kept their word on every KS goal except the last two ones (NPC/Bandits and a Story), why would they stop now?

I trust they'll keep their word on these last two points too.

 

As for the additional alphas: what you see as "winding down to finishing things" it's actually endurance and motivation.

They need additional alphas because they want to complete all goals the best way they can.

Edited April 27, 2021 by Jost Amman
typo (see edit history)

[FA_Q2]

1 minute ago, Jost Amman said:

They've kept their word on every KS goal expect the last two ones (NPC/Bandits and a Story), why would they stop now?

I trust they'll keep their word on these last two points too.

 

As for the additional alphas: what you see as "winding down to finishing things" it's actually endurance and motivation.

They need additional alphas because they want to complete all goals the best way they can.

No doubt they are trying to complete all goals as best they can.

 

Never was digging at the pimps, of the alphas I have been involved with this has been the best by far.  Perhaps they will, your optimism is rubbing off 😛

 

 

[Matt115]

Guys it is started to be mess i rly lose the what is going on now : quests are "limited" by time and it is normal. If you get 200 m treasure hunt it be faster that  find courier stuff 2 km away so it is logical. So you can do 4 - 5 " low tier" quest for cans or 1 but big to get purple quality gun.  And it is good.  I would just reduce exp points for quest. But if you want to get a lot of exp you can get by choose kill zombie boss which can give you a lot of exp. But you can find him somewhere on the map. I agree with  @Roland and @Jost Amman that scavenging is "basic" activity and you can get a lot of stuff doing it , so it is possible to find a balance. Just change some stuff like add some MMO-style guards in bases  , change quests reward and it will be good enough

[Maxley]

On 4/26/2021 at 10:21 AM, Roland said:

That is a great point and I very much agree with this assessment. But if they remove those incentives and force players to just one quest per day then it will feel artificial and nobody will like that either...

 

The way it is now you can choose to be casual with quests or hardcore with quests. If one way is turning out to not be fun for you then choose the other way.

I don’t think it would be unimmersive if the trader could only offer 1 quest a day or instead a handful of quests per week. Realistically there’s only so many drops a trader would need you to collect and only so many houses to clear. I think they should run out of work for you to do and you have to wait a few days to get more work. The game currently is all about quests.

[Roland]

54 minutes ago, Survager said:

 

Wait wait wait @Roland!
Will A20 add game stage modifiers for locations? This will be done not only for biomes ???
I really hope that you are not mistaken and the POIs will have different game stage modifiers!

When I said locations I was talking about biomes. I too hope that specific POI's can also get an additional modifier but I'm not sure whether that will happen or not.

[Roland]

1 hour ago, FA_Q2 said:

I have very strong doubts that either an actual story is going to make it or bandits though.

 

I have doubts about an actual story but I don't have doubts about bandits. I would be shocked if they abandoned bandits. I suppose the work they've done on them could be used for their next game so it wouldn't be a loss but I do think there would be some outrage if that got cut. I could see them doing minimal work to just meet the letter of the kickstarter goal and say that NPC's would be one of the major improvements in their next game but I can't see them outright abandoning something they've been committed to from the beginning.

 

To me, minimal effort would be adding one model that has a ranged attack and encounters you as a solo survivor. Of course, a half dozen models with different varieties of weapons and roles and the ability to coordinate with each other in attacking you/ your base and having a variety of bandit strongholds that can be infiltrated and plundered with a reputation system that dictates their reaction to you would be desirable but as time goes on, for this game, at least, it may be more towards the minimal end of the spectrum with plans to do the more extravagant things in the sequel.

[Matt115]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

 

I have doubts about an actual story but I don't have doubts about bandits. I would be shocked if they abandoned bandits. I suppose the work they've done on them could be used for their next game so it wouldn't be a loss but I do think there would be some outrage if that got cut. I could see them doing minimal work to just meet the letter of the kickstarter goal and say that NPC's would be one of the major improvements in their next game but I can't see them outright abandoning something they've been committed to from the beginning.

 

To me, minimal effort would be adding one model that has a ranged attack and encounters you as a solo survivor. Of course, a half dozen models with different varieties of weapons and roles and the ability to coordinate with each other in attacking you/ your base and having a variety of bandit strongholds that can be infiltrated and plundered with a reputation system that dictates their reaction to you would be desirable but as time goes on, for this game, at least, it may be more towards the minimal end of the spectrum with plans to do the more extravagant things in the sequel.

I don't be so sure about it , i think they will just add them like animals- they can be attacked by zombies and they attack zombie too. Something  like pillager from minecraft  or well zombies and bandits from stalker . They just sitting in some POI or wandering in groups on roads . 3-4  models of  light melee  , 2-3  models medium melee ,  2 models of heavy melee , 3- 5 models of range bandit and bandit chef  

[Jost Amman]

6 hours ago, Matt115 said:

and bandit chef

And here solved anyone's problem with food! 

[Matt115]

5 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

And here solved anyone's problem with food! 

Bandit's are just land pirates so they need cpt bosun and cook too 😂

[Maharin]

7 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

And here solved anyone's problem with food! 

 

Except that bandit chefs would steal food, wouldn't they?

[BFT2020]

20 hours ago, VegetarianZombie said:

God do I hate stupid posts like these. I am sure I will get in trouble for saying that but why do people always have to act like they are trying to be smart and make stupid smug smarmy posts like this and ignore the entire discussion of the topic that is about making something about the game better.

I have no issues with balance changes (like the upcoming ones in A20 for the traders and the addition of pipe weapons).  I also believe I never said anything negative about the original topic of this discussion.  What I was referring to was the fact that you wanted TFP to completely remove the quests from the game because you hated them.

 

Your post implied that you are being "forced" to take and finish quests when you don't have to do any such thing.  The only thing you cannot find by looting or crafting yourself are some high end items (solar banks and solar cells comes to mind right now).  Does the trader make things easier?  Yes they do.  Are we forced to use them?  No we aren't.

 

I personally like having the option of one playthrough using all the traders I can find, another playthrough only using a specific trader the entire game, even playing not taking trader quests or even using the traders at all.  Having those various options to play this game makes it interesting and challenging at times.  Taking away options limits the enjoyment for others, just to satisfy others by removing a game mechanic that is not being forced on the players.

 

TFP are working on balance issues with the traders and pipe weapons.  Even if those changes don't make the game the way you want to play it (for example, adjusting the loot tables to find better gear early on), TFP has setup the game where even novice modders (sp?) can adjust things for their enjoyment.

 

Also, remember that something you think is negative or better for a game can be the opposite for another person.  I personally like choices, and sandbox games like this allow me to make those choices.  I also don't have any issues with the stone age in this game.  I take it as a challenge.  So I don't have any firearms for my first BM horde except for some blunderbusses; I just take stock of what I do have and planned accordingly.  You want to loot and want to find better loot earlier than I do.  That's great, and the easiest way to do that is to adjust the loot tables file so that the better loot shows up earlier.  If TFP goes a different route and makes the base game where the better loot shows up earlier, then I would adjust the loot tables on my computer so they show up later.

Edited April 28, 2021 by BFT2020
Corrected a double negative before Roland could (see edit history)