Alpha 20 Dev Diary

[Khalagar]

20 minutes ago, khzmusik said:

Honestly, my suspicion is that the people who don't like this change, aren't actually interested in playing a survival game.

 

I literally can't think of a survival game where food is an issue past early game, or where farming / food production isn't AFK / essentially AFK by late game.

 

Tedious = / = better

 

In most survival games it just requires material investment / set up cost to get going, and then usually is fire and forget. I've got thousands of hours in survival games, like 750 in 7 Days to Die alone, and I don't get the gatekeeping of what real survival game fans would like.  I'm currently playing a turbo hardcore survival Skyrim playthrough which adds a bajillion tedious systems for food and water, weather, sleep,  comfort, warmth, armor degradation, weapon effectiveness vs armor types,  etc etc etc, and while it's fun to me I can definitely see why it wouldn't be fun to everyone else. And even in that, food is a nonfactor because you can just come up with so much of it.

 

Struggling for food is always just supposed to be an early game challenge, even the changes to food in A20 are barely mid game changes, they are just annoying rather than challenging for mid and late game.  All of the proposed fixes aren't making it easier they are making it less tedious because again, tedious = / = better

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Khalagar (see edit history)

[khzmusik]

5 minutes ago, Khalagar said:

 

I literally can't think of a survival game where food is an issue past early game, or where farming / food production isn't AFK / essentially AFK by late game.

 

 

You're not wrong, but that doesn't mean survival games are better because of it. For me that's a flaw in the game design (though not a flaw that is unique, it happens in nearly all survival games).

 

I'm guessing it's a big reason that people tend to abandon survival games when they reach mid-game or end-game. That certainly seems to happen a lot with 7D2D, and I've done it myself with other games like Subnautica. Once you have set up an endless supply of food and water, it's a short step from "away from keyboard" to "away from game."

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

1 hour ago, khzmusik said:

 

Honestly, my suspicion is that the people who don't like this change, aren't actually interested in playing a survival game. They're more interested in playing an FPS, and the "survival" aspects are just annoyances that you get through once you're past early game. You can see this in people who focus on adding more weapons or zombie variations and don't really care about much else. (Not that I'm against those things.)

 

Again, not anywhere near a desciption of myself as a player or my playstyle.

 

I love the mining and building aspects of the game, trying to create a little eden and struggling to do so, and to maintain it.

 

As frustrating as it is, I've also had games where myself and friends all looting and scavenging took weeks in game to come across a single mushroom spore.

 

Finding one was cause for celebration, an achievement reached, and rewarding especially considering some recipies require them.

 

I do enjoy fending off the undead/semidead, but I much prefer brawling melee, and not guns. FPS playstyle is not something I would include in my own personal preferred gaming experience, and any gun play or varied weapon use is as a means of brute survival more than anything else.

 

If later perking does indeed negate this seed disappearing garbage, then I will spec into it and not have any problem.

 

However, even if I can avoid this and enjoy, I am still considerate enough for lesser fortunate individuals who have a tendency to invest in other builds and rarely put anything bar minimum into the farming perk.

 

Just because they don't play farmer builds, they shouldn't be shafted either. Less crops per harvest is bad enough.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Beelzebubs Ghost (see edit history)

[meganoth]

7 hours ago, POCKET951 said:

I like this idea.

but how about this?

 

why not leave the seeds when you harvest, but instead have a 50% chance to yield from the crops when you harvest so  there are 2 out comes

 

A) you harvest it and get the appropriate resources and it goes back to a seedling

B) you harvest it and get 0 resources and it becomes a seedling

and you could even have a percentage for partial harvest maybe?

 

You create the exact same amount of scarcity without all the hassle or frustrating outcomes

 

I don't think this is equivalent, because you forgot that in the current system you need part of the harvest to replace the spoiled seeds if you want a sustainable farm. For comparison, here is the (hopefully correct) math for farming in A20:

 

Assume you have 10 seeds and LotL 1. After 3 days this yields 30 produce and on average you have 5 seeds left (in your inventory for A20, already in the farm plot with my idea). To replace the 5 spoiled seeds you need 5*5 = 25 of the produce which means your surplus out of 10 farming plots per 3-day-season is 30-25 = 5 produce.

 

With your idea you don't need to replace any seeds so you get a surplus of 15 produce.

 

And there is another difference: In the A20-version of farming the player has the option to NOT replace seeds to get out more food at first but with diminishing results every 3 days. In the end you would get (ideally) nearly 60 produce out of the 10 seeds. I don't think this difference is important, just wanted to mention it.

 

But I like your idea as well. It could easily be adapted to result in any surplus percentage desired. And it still has that random element which I like.

 

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[khzmusik]

15 minutes ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

 

Again, not anywhere near a desciption of myself as a player or my playstyle.

 

I love the mining and building aspects of the game, trying to create a little eden and struggling to do so.

 

As much as it's frustrating, I had gamed where myself and friends all looting and scavenging took weeks in game to come across a single mushroom spore.

 

It was like Christmas came early, especially considering some recipies require it.

 

I do enjoy fending off the undead/semidead, but I much prefer brawling melee, and not guns. FPS playstyle is not something I would include in my own personal gaming experience, and any gun play or varied weapon use is as a means of brute survival more than anything else.

 

If later perking does indeed negate this seed disappearing garbage, then I will spec into it and not have any problem.

 

However, even if I can avoid this and enjoy, I sam still considerate enough for lesser fortunate individuals who have a tendency to imvest in other builds and rarely put anything bar minimum into the farming perk.

 

Just because they don't play farmer builds, they shouldn't be shafted either. Less crops per harvest is bad enough.

 

I should have been clearer. When I said "FPS" I probably should have said "combat" - I include melee.

 

And, I too enjoy finding things like mushroom seeds, but in previous alphas that thrill was pretty much over once you found your first seed. From then on out, you were all set for that crop.

 

I'd much rather have that thrill be there even in late game, and right now it's not. That was what I was getting at.

 

EDIT: I'm also not trying to rag on people who like combat. I like it too. I just want the survival aspects to get harder in the same way that killing zombies gets harder.

Edited December 6, 2021 by khzmusik (see edit history)

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

9 minutes ago, khzmusik said:

 

I should have been clearer. When I said "FPS" I probably should have said "combat" - I include melee.

 

And, I too enjoy finding things like mushroom seeds, but in previous alphas that thrill was pretty much over once you found your first seed. From then on out, you were all set for that crop.

 

I'd much rather have that thrill be there even in late game, and right now it's not. That was what I was getting at.

 

EDIT: I'm also not trying to rag on people who like combat. I like it too. I just want the survival aspects to get harder in the same way that killing zombies gets harder.

 

I appreciate that, and I'm with you on the survival front.

 

I think farming has taken a hit because of a larger as of yet unaddressed issue with food. It has resulted in bizarre outcomes like more food drainage when driving as oppsed to sprinting across the map (if I recall correctly.)

 

Until a reasonable proposition is in, for example food spoilage, as was suggested previously, other systems are going to take blows in it's place.

[meganoth]

23 minutes ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

 

Again, not anywhere near a desciption of myself as a player or my playstyle.

 

I love the mining and building aspects of the game, trying to create a little eden and struggling to do so.

 

As much as it's frustrating, I've had games where myself and friends all looting and scavenging took weeks in game to come across a single mushroom spore.

 

It was like Christmas came early, especially considering some recipies require it.

 

I do enjoy fending off the undead/semidead, but I much prefer brawling melee, and not guns. FPS playstyle is not something I would include in my own personal gaming experience, and any gun play or varied weapon use is as a means of brute survival more than anything else.

 

If later perking does indeed negate this seed disappearing garbage, then I will spec into it and not have any problem.

 

However, even if I can avoid this and enjoy, I sam still considerate enough for lesser fortunate individuals who have a tendency to imvest in other builds and rarely put anything bar minimum into the farming perk.

 

Just because they don't play farmer builds, they shouldn't be shafted either. Less crops per harvest is bad enough.

 

Such a memorable christmas-came-early feeling should happen from time to time in a game. This is why I like randomness.

[khzmusik]

14 minutes ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

 

I appreciate that, and I'm with you on the survival front.

 

I think farming has taken a hit because of a larger as of yet unaddressed issue with food. It has resulted in bizarre outcomes like more food drainage when driving as oppsed to sprinting across the map (if I recall correctly.)

 

Until a reasonable proposition is in, for example food spoilage, as was suggested previously, other systems are going to take blows in it's place.

 

I don't think the issue was that food drainage was worse when driving, it was that driving drained food at all. At least, that's what I remember.

 

Also, it was possible to mod in food spoilage in A19 (I have a mod that does it), and hopefully it will be possible in A20 as well. But it should be possible to balance food without resorting to modding in food spoilage. IMHO the farming changes are a step in that direction.

 

Regardless, even without food spoilage, I'm pretty sure modders can change the farming just through XML. I'm sure we'll have a dozen mods that do it by the time A20 is stable.  (And that is a complement to 7D2D, I don't think most people comprehend how much work it takes for a game to be this easy to mod.)

Edited December 6, 2021 by khzmusik (see edit history)

[pyronical]

Where can I see these farming changes that everyone is going postal about?

[TPrice321]

15 minutes ago, meganoth said:

For comparison, here is the (hopefully correct) math for farming in A20:

 

Assume you have 10 seeds and LotL 1. After 3 days this yields 30 produce and on average you have 5 seeds left (in your inventory for A20, already in the farm plot with my idea). To replace the 5 spoiled seeds you need 5*5 = 25 of the produce which means your surplus out of 10 farming plots per 3-day-season is 30-25 = 5 produce.

 

 

Your math is incorrect for A20 farming

 

Player grown farm plot crop with no perks yield 2 produce per harvest 

 

LotL1 doubles your harvest so 4 produce per farm plot harvested

 

LotL3 triples the harvest so 6 produce per farm plot harvested.

 

So 10 farm plots with LotL1 gives you 40 produce - 25 to make replacement seeds = net 15 produce

 

10 farm plots with LotL3 gives you 60 produce -25 for replacement seeds = net 35 produce

 

So farming with a one point investment is profitable and with LotL3 is a better return than A19's net 30 for 10 farm plots

[bdubyah]

Eh, if you can't be bothered replanting your crops, then don't farm. It isn't tedious, it's part of surviving. Like khzmusik said, it seems like the people that have issues with this don't enjoy the survival aspect as much. But that's what the game is, a "survival horde crafting game". They've gotten away from a lot of the survival stuff over time, so I'm glad to see them adding some of it back in.

[pyronical]

Ok I understand now, that is definitely a welcome change I think.  I am sick of seeing massive community gardens making food trivial for anyone even new starters.

[khzmusik]

15 minutes ago, TPrice321 said:

So 10 farm plots with LotL1 gives you 40 produce - 25 to make replacement seeds = net 15 produce

 

Not quite, because there's a 50% chance to get seeds back. If you don't then you will need to use 5 "produce" (or "fruits") to create another seed.

 

In the worst case scenario, where RNG gives you no seeds:

 

10 farm plots with LotL1 gives you 40 produce - 50 produce to make replacement seeds = net loss of 10 produce. Meaning, you will use all 40 produce to make 8 seeds, have no produce, and 2 of your plots will be empty.

 

But that's the extreme situation. Assuming exactly 50% of the harvest gives you seeds, it's as you said:

 

10 farm plots with LotL1 gives you 40 produce + 5 seeds - 25 produce to make replacement seeds = net gain of 15 produce

 

Not terrible, but an average chance of 1.5 produce per plot is still far less than the guaranteed 2 you would get in A19.

 

...Still not criticizing the change, just explaining peoples' concerns.

Edited December 6, 2021 by khzmusik (see edit history)

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

11 minutes ago, bdubyah said:

Eh, if you can't be bothered replanting your crops, then don't farm. It isn't tedious, it's part of surviving. Like khzmusik said, it seems like the people that have issues with this don't enjoy the survival aspect as much. But that's what the game is, a "survival horde crafting game". They've gotten away from a lot of the survival stuff over time, so I'm glad to see them adding some of it back in.

 

The way people flip flop astounds me.

 

Devs add something, they get praised for the great idea. Devs remove said idea, and are praised because people knew it was crap all along.

 

I really wonder what the opposition to my sentiments, as part of a thought experiment, would comment if the devs saw this and thought 'Let's revert the changes and keep the A19 setup.'

 

On @Tprice321 's point, if the maths checks out and the yield is greater then doesn't that do as myself and @Khalagar suggested and just add a layer of unnecessary and obstructive tedium in seed management?

 

Anyway, to all you guys I am grateful because at least we are having a good discussion about this 👍🏻

Edited December 6, 2021 by Beelzebubs Ghost (see edit history)

[hiemfire]

3 minutes ago, TPrice321 said:

Your math is incorrect for A20 farming

 

Player grown farm plot crop with no perks yield 2 produce per harvest 

 

LotL1 doubles your harvest so 4 produce per farm plot harvested

 

LotL3 triples the harvest so 6 produce per farm plot harvested.

 

So 10 farm plots with LotL1 gives you 40 produce - 25 to make replacement seeds = net 15 produce

 

10 farm plots with LotL3 gives you 60 produce -25 for replacement seeds = net 35 produce

 

So farming with a one point investment is profitable and with LotL3 is a better return than A19's net 30 for 10 farm plots

 

Never expect to actually get a 50% return on a 50% probability in any game when using sample sizes below 1000. Most likely, from my experience over the years, is 20%-30% return, getting a seed in this case, on a 50% probability. So 3 seeds tops needing 35 fruit for full replant leaving 5 fruit left over. The first trick is actually getting those first 10 seeds for the calculations you and @meganoth did to even be possible. Doing it through farming from 1-2 seeds ain't likely to happen and from what I recall it is a sub 10% chance for any seed to drop in trash and un broken sinks.

[pyronical]

Just saw TFP "pre game pup talk" video on YouTube and thought it meant A20 was live, never opened steam so fast.... and closed it so slowly in disappointment.

Edited December 6, 2021 by pyronical (see edit history)

[bdubyah]

1 minute ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

 

The way people flip flop astounds me.

 

Devs add something, they get praised for the greag idea. Devs remove said idea, and are praised because people knew it was crap all along.

 

I really wonder what the opposition to my sentiments, as part of a thought experiment, would comment if the devs saw this and thought 'Let's revert the changes and keep the A19 setup.'

 

On @Tprice321 's point, if the maths checks out and the yield is greater then doesn't that do as myself and @Khalagar suggested and just add a layer of unnecessary and obstructive tedium in seed management?

 

Anyway, to all you guys I am grateful because at least we are having a good discussion about this 👍🏻

Except his math isn't correct, as pointed out by khzmusik and heimfire. So it isn't just a layer of unnecessary tedium.

 

And there have been several things added, and removed since I've been playing the game that I agree and disagree with. This is one I agree with. People are just lazy and want unlimited food with as little effort as possible. If this change is tedious and game-ruining for you, find or make a mod to correct it. It will take literally 10 seconds to undo the change.

[hiemfire]

4 minutes ago, bdubyah said:

Except his math isn't correct

Their math was correct, they were just starting from a flawed initial assumption that the 50% return is guaranteed.

[Astronomical]

Ok if you didn't think that completely unexpected alpha 20 pre game pup talk video was funny!?? I don't know what to say..

 

I totally got super bowl puppy bowl vibes! 😂

Edited December 6, 2021 by Astronomical
grammer (see edit history)

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

3 minutes ago, bdubyah said:

Except his math isn't correct, as pointed out by khzmusik and heimfire. So it isn't just a layer of unnecessary tedium.

 

And there have been several things added, and removed since I've been playing the game that I agree and disagree with. This is one I agree with. People are just lazy and want unlimited food with as little effort as possible. If this change is tedious and game-ruining for you, find or make a mod to correct it. It will take literally 10 seconds to undo the change.

 

3 minutes ago, Astronomical said:

Ok if you didn't think that completely unexpected alpha 20 pre game pup talk video was funny!?? I don't know what to say..

 

I totally got super bowl puppy bowl vibes! 😂

 

Where is this thing? 🤔

[hiemfire]

Just now, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

 

 

Where is this thing? 🤔

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M15SBlO70pU

[Aldranon]

About farming:

A simple reality added would solve anyone's concerns that once a farm is established, food survival is over.

 

Add food spoilage! 

OR on blood moon night ALL FOOD SPOILS (except canned goods) to add another scary element to BM nights!

[hiemfire]

3 minutes ago, Aldranon said:

OR on blood moon night ALL FOOD SPOILS (except canned goods) to add another scary element to BM nights!

If the canned goods explode destroying the containers, including vending machines and traders/players, they're in instead of spoiling then I'd be for it.

Edited December 6, 2021 by hiemfire (see edit history)

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

8 minutes ago, hiemfire said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M15SBlO70pU

 

Thank you 👍🏻

[Khalagar]

19 minutes ago, hiemfire said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M15SBlO70pU

 

Freaking looool

 

Also that dog whistle he blew at the start triggered my cats hard, apparently those work on more than just dogs