Progressive Loot OR Weapon Proficiency ?

[Yuzuke]

* ↑↑↑  just give you a quick idea of ... my relationship with this game*

 

disclaimer : I love this game and I think Funpimps are awesome.... BUT

...been trying A19 for some weeks now and I have some salty opinion about this "progressive loot system".

long story short:  it's not progressive at all, it's all about leveling, it's DUMB and LAZY. sad but true, sorry funpimps.

 

Can you imagine a police station / military base filled its armory with primitive bows and wooden arrows? or worse -- stone spear?

no wonder why there's an apocalypse going around in the first place eh?

there's nothing wrong with a progressive game design, but this 'low-level-low-life' approach is just the worst.

- it strip away the excitment of opening a chest, this is unbearable for a loot-heavy survival game!

- it break immersion and have no logic sense, it's just hilarious.

- it discourage player to go out and loot in the early game. forcing a linear and not-so-exciting gameplay strategy.

- it over simplified the relationship between player and the world, in a survival game genre.

- it discourage new player go deeper into the game, because they keep struggling at low level. no level, no progression.

- it makes blood moon boring in the early game. thus make the game less appeal to new players.

- it makes dealing with the enviroument and obstacles more of a torment and less engaging, cuz why bother venture into a lair full of nothingness while you can simply level up in the open.

 

here's a better solution: bring back the old progressive system with some new tweaks ---

- everytime you score a hit, you get some EXP into the weapon type you currently use -- weapon proficiency

- everytime you successfully craft an item, you get some EXP into the crafting skill you use -- crafting skill proficiency

- when you level in proficiency, unlock new abilities/traits/special schematics.

- some special books require a minimum proficiency level to fully understood -- you can't read a book and became some master, you practicing it first!

- different player profile MATTERS! for example some survivor have a built-in proficiency advantage, thus make different player have different performance at Day 1. just like class / role / background in other game genre. and it make multiplayer game more engaging, because my friend always pick loot skill and make me a builder!

- even more to that, it makes sense for a strong man firing a M60 non-stop while the ladies can barely handle a shotgun.

 

in this case, you don't have to take off that shotgun from player's hands at Day 1, it's just don't matter that much anymore, the damage, the handling, the accuracy is nowhere comparable to a seasoned survivor in Day 300, and the new player can experience those toys early on but cannot fully unlock it's potential. this create a motivation. this, in my opinon, is the utimate method to make player attached to the game and willing to invest their time hone their skill and really FEEL PROGRESSIVE.

 

excuse me for the grammar & spelling errors cuz I'm not an English native speaker, but I love this game and dev same as you do  ...  :)  peace 

 

 

 

[meganoth]

Just play A15. There your solution is implemented. It won't come back, except in some mods.

 

[seagas]

I rather like the new system, we're playing a zombie apocalypse game on a computer, after all. So nothing like this IRL so suspension  of disbelief is minimal at best. As for chest and crates, I put a marker on the map, on all of the Working Stiffs, Shotgun Messiah boxes and large safes and head to them when my game stage is higher. I just started a new save with stable release and I think it adds more to immersion as IRL, the best stuff has already been looted by other survivors and I have to build up to higher levels. If you want easy win, just spawn in what you want and carry-on.

[Laz Man]

OP, higher reward locations with corresponding difficulty will hopefully address the low level gear in higher difficulty places like army bases.

 

The devs have acknowledged this to some degree.  Will see how they implement it in future updates.

[Boidster]

I propose that every time you successfully beat a horse, you get +1 EXP in equestrionics or whatever it's called.

[Roland]

But it's a dead horse so it would be +1 EXP in Elmeronics...

[leaderdog]

A buddy of mine pointed me to nexusmods and some fellow there made the: "FAWK-LOOT-ALL" mod which does away with the silliness of progressive loot leveling.  I despised the stone tools in every locked container when I played it the first time and after the 3rd restart I simply had no desire to start the "stone age" over again.

 

So give that mod a roll (I am in no way affiliated with the mod or anyone associated with it) but it put the randomness back into looting.  I'm enjoying the game again.   Pimps need to take a long hard look at why they're trying to add RTS elements to this game. it's not needed at all.

 

Until they have specific areas giving related loot (not sure if that's in the works or not) this mod helps.

 

as for any learn by doing system, that's not coming back except in mods.  So you'll have to wait until alpha 19 stable (likely) for any of the current modders to roll back some learn by doing systems.  I thought Madmole had said if people kept asking for LBD he'd start banning them.  Glad he didn't but I understand the pimps frustration as they've moved on and aren't going back to it.   I agree some things definitely should be learn by doing and I don't like the skill tree at all, but again.   Modders are your friends here.

 

good luck

[Slaasher]

5 hours ago, Boidster said:

I propose that every time you successfully beat a horse, you get +1 EXP in equestrionics or whatever it's called.

That's friggin hysterical

 

 

[Solomon]

15 hours ago, seagas said:

So nothing like this IRL so suspension  of disbelief is minimal at best.

You guys dont understand suspension of disbelief. It doesnt matter how unrealistic a game is you create certain expectations on how things are going to go.

 

For games we are already okay with the concept of inventory spaces, boxes what are resistant to the world outside (burning torch in  a wood box under the sea), the undead rising and soo on but there are borders of suspension of disbelief.

A basic example would be finding a pistol in skyrim, makes absolutely no sense and breaks the immersion because you can no longer suspend your disbelief for this one.

 

 

Same deal goes on here, regardless of how "realistic" your game is suspension of disbelief applies to it because the game itself is built on certain elements what generate the impressions of what you expect to see. Seeing military zombies with their armor on inside a base what has running electricity only to open big gun safes filled with stone safes and a blunderbuss is pure nonsene. It only makes sense in a prehistoric themed museum poi but such thing is not ingame.

[meganoth]

Your example is flawed 😉. Might and magic 6 was a typical fantasy game with magic in a medieval setting. Near the end of the game you find blasters (and an alien space ship and robots). You see, it can make sense.

 

What you don't accept anymore in this game is also very much dependand whether it was in the game alread or not. You accept burning torches in water because it was that way always. But when anything is changed in a new alpha, that gets not only checked against reality but also against what you are used to from a previous alpha.

 

I sometimes find perfectly eatable meat stews or blueberry pies in trash piles. Anyone making a fuss about that?

 

Now if there is an easy method to make this all look more natural, then I'm all for it. For example the shipping boxes could look like used boxes instead of like every POI has bought 5 boxes and didn't open them directly before the apocalypse started.

 

But (just as a suggestion) you could as well think for yourself that those are simply used boxes someone put a string around that you have to cut through. Makes playing the game much easier.

 

[leaderdog]

19 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Your example is flawed 😉. Might and magic 6 was a typical fantasy game with magic in a medieval setting. Near the end of the game you find blasters (and an alien space ship and robots). You see, it can make sense.

 

 

 

Come on now, you're just being difficult when using that as a counter argument. 

 

M&M 6 specifically had alien artifacts because you were realizing you were on an alien world or aliens had crashed, and you're using their technology now.   When I first played it, I did find it odd, but they had built that lore into the game which makes it easier to roll with.  That's not the case here.  As a side note, you could call down a meteor shower to crush your enemies.  Knowing what we know about science, that's just stupid.  Unless of course their world had a close proximity meteor belt around the planet, but it was still cool

 

Roland has said in a different thread this isn't the final rendition of the loot table.  Whether it was a failed experiment or because they're going to make loot specific to area or whatever their plan.... doesn't really matter.  The only solutions right now are to use a mod to get rid of this nonsense, accept it is a temporary (and terrible) moment in the game, or just quit playing until they add the next level/phase to it.

 

I still think a progression level is ridiculous regardless but hopefully the pimps will roll something enjoyable out.  If not, it will get modded out by your friendly neighbourhood modder.

 

As to your string around the box, it doesn't work for the gun safe you wasted 6-8 lock picks on to crack into only to get the 3 level one stone axes someone proudly stored away hoping no one would steal.  I guess you could argue some jerk locked the stone axes in there so the next person would have to waste their time and resources getting garbage.  But I'd rather just use the mod that gets rid of this silliness and reintroduces random loot.

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, leaderdog said:

Come on now, you're just being difficult when using that as a counter argument. 

 

It was not a counter argument. It was just an example that her example CAN make sense in the right circumstances. Notice the smiley. The rest of my post did not make any reference to this or used this as proof of anything.
 

Quote

 

M&M 6 specifically had alien artifacts because you were realizing you were on an alien world or aliens had crashed, and you're using their technology now.   When I first played it, I did find it odd, but they had built that lore into the game which makes it easier to roll with.  That's not the case here.  As a side note, you could call down a meteor shower to crush your enemies.  Knowing what we know about science, that's just stupid.  Unless of course their world had a close proximity meteor belt around the planet, but it was still cool

 

Roland has said in a different thread this isn't the final rendition of the loot table.  Whether it was a failed experiment or because they're going to make loot specific to area or whatever their plan.... doesn't really matter.  The only solutions right now are to use a mod to get rid of this nonsense, accept it is a temporary (and terrible) moment in the game, or just quit playing until they add the next level/phase to it.

 

The solution depends on the player. Some people who can't cope with the game because some things don't act like they expect them to or find things not fun that way will have to mod them (note that different people find different things in this game nonsense and need to mod it). Some other people don't have a problem with it and have a quite easier time with the game. It is strange to see that you accepted a very similar loot system in other games (since you obviously have played RPGs) but call the same linear advancement of weapons and armor nonsense and terrible in this game. When I played MM6 (I played it twice) the loot or what I could afford to buy was always just a small step above the equipment I had.

 

Quote

 

I still think a progression level is ridiculous regardless but hopefully the pimps will roll something enjoyable out.  If not, it will get modded out by your friendly neighbourhood modder.

 

As to your string around the box, it doesn't work for the gun safe you wasted 6-8 lock picks on to crack into only to get the 3 level one stone axes someone proudly stored away hoping no one would steal.  I guess you could argue some jerk locked the stone axes in there so the next person would have to waste their time and resources getting garbage.  But I'd rather just use the mod that gets rid of this silliness and reintroduces random loot.

Sure, mod it, that is what I would propose as well. If that makes you happy who am I to object? Probably you have enough experience in the game now to know what other knobs you have to turn to make it still enjoyable after you got an Ak on day 1.

 

The owner of a safe decides what he puts into a safe and when he thinks a can of miso soup needs to be away from easy access, who are we to argue. Maybe an optimization of the loot tables might just not put any tool or weapon of lowest quality into locked away containers.

 

I don't see a problem with a safe having a blunderbuss in it, not even a low quality one. Also if you need a lot of time to craft a stone axe (in reality it would need a lot of time, that is abstracted away in the game) then a stone axe might not be so worthless as you make it to be. While opening a safe is a very fast and simple operation to the owner of the safe since he knows the combination or has the key to it

 

Yes, if you find 3 q1 stone axes in a safe that isn't ideal. Generally I would be quite ok if safes were mostly empty at the start of the game, you just don't have the luck to find valuable stuff in mostly emptied out houses. I think A15 had it that you kept safes for later because you couldn't open them in reasonable time anyway. Nobody really protested, it just was a strategic element to loot them later.

 

 

 

[leaderdog]

I suppose we can justify anything away if we really want to. 

 

Simply put a stone age other than what you craft in a game like this is just dumb.  We potentially found guns on day one in all alphas except this one.  Yes change for the sake of change can be upsetting to many.  Change because you want to limit the start of the game hoping people won't notice the lack of end content is lazy, and detrimental to the game. Yep some people enjoy it.  And goooood for them.  Some people like their games with ridiculous limitations.  And bless their hearts that's great if they enjoy it.  If the pimps would have came out and said, this is a stepping stone to a different loot system please bear with us as we make the adjustments over the next alpha, I think you'd have less outcry than you did.   Without a simple statement like that it just looks like a horrible decision.

 

As for a blunderbuss being a gun.  Sure it is.  I'd bet all 1000 people (if that) in the states that own one proudly display them in a gun case or lock them away in their safe.  I'm being facetious here of course, but a blunderbuss is NOT a common firearm, nor is it a preferred firearm, nor is it a sought after by the general gun owners of any world, except collectors.  They're a pointless weapon that had their time in history and everyone moved on from them to much better, more accurate, and safer weapons.  So finding them with such frequency isn't enjoyable gameplay. 

 

So to say you'll find a blunderbuss at all, should be more of a specialty or a collectable in the game rather than something you would actually use.  but ok, it's a game so I guess whatever.

 

When looting becomes boring because the randomization of it is taken out, it's tough to enjoy that part of the game.  Even as the game progresses the current and even all previous alphas, looting becomes some what pointless.  There's only so many jars and tin cans you need to find.  And when the majority of the loot becomes pointless, you start over.  The lack of end game content is and has been the issue for many alphas.  But it will hopefully come.  Lord willing not in a download pack but in the base game. Perhaps these changes are all leading towards specific loot being found only in specific buildings/zones or whatever, I guess time will tell, but for now we mod the game to fit our enjoyment as that really is one of the greatest things about this game.

 

I tried myself to mod the loot table within the first couple days of playing it, but I'm not good with modding, I can do some basic stuff, but this one was far more complicated, and thankfully someone on Nexusmods made one.  People screamed quit level limiting us, or locking things behind levels and then we get a loot table that is essentially locked behind a level gate or gamestage gate.  They had to know that wouldn't go over well. 

 

BUT again, mods are what make this game great when the devs make mistakes.  And so I just directed them to the mod so they can enjoy this great game again without nonsensical limitations.

 

As for why is it acceptable for progression in an RPG?  You start out with nothing, or very little training and build from there.  we'll use M&M 6/7 for examples.  You could go anywhere and fight anything, and with that you would get loot well above your level (mostly gold) you had to train your skills at a trainer.  I in fact argued when the skill tree came in, they should have specialized trainers you find and gain skills from them rather than the "ho boi I got a skill point to spend!!1"  which I mentioned was inspired by M&M 6.  anyways, You'd get your butt handed to you in some areas, or you would devise a clever plan to win.  That's a good rpg.  Let's take M&M 11(?) the last one they made.  It was a honking piece of crap.  You couldn't access some areas unless you were a certain level, level gating, and much of it was just so watered down and pointless that it became so boring to play.   Let's look back at 7d2d, these gating elements crept into the game and it started to upset people.  7d2d started out with no limitations (other than finding the recipes) and from there your imagination and own goals were the limits.  Now we have level limits, wait until you get more points to upgrade the one skill you want and blah blah blah.

 

But I'm over it.  Mod out the crap you don't like, or like me, wait until some kind soul does it because it's beyond your capabilities.  People will defend the pimps even if they make poor decisions, and that's ok.  I disagree that some changes were needed, but thankfully they were kind enough to allow you to mod out things you don't like.

 

oh also, I used to pretty much only play rpg games, until they became so boring because you're doing the same thing always regardless of the game you're playing.  So when 7d2d started adding rpg elements it was disappointing.  so needless to say, this beautiful unique game is turning into copies of other games with some unique elements.... so yeah, I don't like that.

 

Have fun, it's a game.  go get the mod off nexus and enjoy the way you like to play.

[alanea]

21 hours ago, Yuzuke said:

Can you imagine a police station / military base filled its armory with primitive bows and wooden arrows? or worse -- stone spear?

 

no wonder why there's an apocalypse going around in the first place eh?

there's nothing wrong with a progressive game design, but this 'low-level-low-life' approach is just the worst.

- it strip away the excitment of opening a chest, this is unbearable for a loot-heavy survival game!

- it break immersion and have no logic sense, it's just hilarious.

- it discourage player to go out and loot in the early game. forcing a linear and not-so-exciting gameplay strategy.

- it over simplified the relationship between player and the world, in a survival game genre.

- it discourage new player go deeper into the game, because they keep struggling at low level. no level, no progression.

- it makes blood moon boring in the early game. thus make the game less appeal to new players.

- it makes dealing with the enviroument and obstacles more of a torment and less engaging, cuz why bother venture into a lair full of nothingness while you can simply level up in the open.

is it ideal ?  nope ... its needed ?  yes  loot  is still quite high  pistol on  day 1 is still normal (if you are unlucky   t1  costs  1800dukes) and current gameplay given me  6x  tier 1  ak before first horde and auto shotgun  +sniper rifle before second..

day 23 t6 pistol  t6 wrench  r4  steel pickaxe  t2 steel shovel t6  iron fireaxe t2 sniper rifle t5 desert vulture

so while they toned down loot no one is holding you in stone age not to  mention almost every gun based loot contain blunderbuss .... yes far weaker than 9mm pistol but with easily obtainable ammo and able to 1 shot any normal zombie from close range and using them is something  that almost everyone enjoy  in a19

 

for loot is military base with stone spears realistic ?  nope  ..

its realistic to carry  thousands of concrete mixes  when  10/20 makes  1  square meter  block weighting over two tons?

its realistic to fall  60 meters and get broken leg   splint it up and run away ?

its realistic to meet zombies on streets ?

its realistic to counter starving by bandaging self with aloe?

its realistic to pack up your 4x4  in bag  when you go into poi ?

its realistic to pop and go kill bear with bare fists ? or explode his head with  first punch ?

its realistic to  to jump from spot  3 meter high?

........................................

bassically everyone  who start talking about realism immersion  logic or physics  should realize 7 days isnt  reality  simulator .. its a scifi game where  is realism secondary to gameplay

 but ofc you can mod it anytime to find guns in police stations ... remove any healing items .. limit cobblestone to max 4 pieces in inventory ... concrete to  1 ..... in name of realism

21 hours ago, Yuzuke said:

here's a better solution: bring back the old progressive system with some new tweaks ---

- everytime you score a hit, you get some EXP into the weapon type you currently use -- weapon proficiency

- everytime you successfully craft an item, you get some EXP into the crafting skill you use -- crafting skill proficiency

- when you level in proficiency, unlock new abilities/traits/special schematics.

- some special books require a minimum proficiency level to fully understood -- you can't read a book and became some master, you practicing it first!

- different player profile MATTERS! for example some survivor have a built-in proficiency advantage, thus make different player have different performance at Day 1. just like class / role / background in other game genre. and it make multiplayer game more engaging, because my friend always pick loot skill and make me a builder!

- even more to that, it makes sense for a strong man firing a M60 non-stop while the ladies can barely handle a shotgun.

LBD system was good for weapon skills ... but absolutely terrible for crafting spam crafting was re*arded side effect that had to go ( for simplistic " realism person" making  10 000 stone axes  doesnt make you master blacksmith .. and repairing wooden blocks definitely wont teach you how to make concrete and dont even make me start about watching "cooking gunpowder" to craft better firearms)

 

 roles are still in game  90% same ....  you just have to use perks instead crafting thousands stone axes  or damaging and repairing block  over and over :D

21 hours ago, Yuzuke said:

in this case, you don't have to take off that shotgun from player's hands at Day 1, it's just don't matter that much anymore, the damage, the handling, the accuracy is nowhere comparable to a seasoned survivor in Day 300, and the new player can experience those toys early on but cannot fully unlock it's potential. this create a motivation. this, in my opinon, is the utimate method to make player attached to the game and willing to invest their time hone their skill and really FEEL PROGRESSIVE.

sure  they could  leave you with shotgun  nerfed to  1% damage due to " lack of skill"  and slowly learning

basically a16 and earlier   was extremely rng based .. you could  found complete ak from first looted car ... or not single fcomplete firearm first  20+ days now you are looting crap guns / better quality bows/spears/blunders/stone shovels whatever .. and then climb over first weeks to better quality ...  higher tiers after  +- day  20   low tier  steel tools become quite common

a17   give  us easy acess to  guns / top tier tools  and  funny pimps desperately needed to prolong gameplay  as you could  be full geared by day  20-30 and basically won game

so they  1) disabled  tier 6 crafting  2)nerfed early loot

1)is questionable .,.. but they need something to motivate you into looting hard long poi  rather than focus character and craft everything maxed around lvl  30-40

2)  definitely worked people now consider even better stone tools as upgrade opposed to a18  where you crafted stone axe to break  two doors  and then pulled out  iron axe  wrench and  m60  with  150 ammo on day 1 from first house ... then sell  rest of loot at trader and buy  300  more  7.62 they definitely trying to returna  little to  a16  club+ bow style atleast for first days ....  instead a17  first person shooter

 

3) they still need to polish it up  ..  90%  traders sell firearm for price you manage pay on day 1  if you do  two quests gun shouldnt be easy to get starting item  ... same as finding intact concrete mixer and making concrete on day  1 is weird same could be said  for  chemistry station

but yes making stone tools  "few day phase"    " hit 5x door or  10x rock and then dump them"   is  definitely good direction

btw first horde cant be boring .,.. its basically tutorial  ending around  23:50

 

[alanea]

3 hours ago, leaderdog said:

As to your string around the box, it doesn't work for the gun safe you wasted 6-8 lock picks on to crack into only to get the 3 level one stone axes someone proudly stored away hoping no one would steal.  I guess you could argue some jerk locked the stone axes in there so the next person would have to waste their time and resources getting garbage.  But I'd rather just use the mod that gets rid of this silliness and reintroduces random loot.

 but what if someone  already looted that safe  , put in stone axes he spamcrafting  24/7  to magically make better wrench and relocked safe just to troll you ?🤔

 

anyway  i never goot tier 1 stone axe from loot .. even on day  1 safes contained tier 2-4 stone tools/weapons or tier 1 guns

btw tier 6 wooden club on day  2  from gunsafe ... yeah  dont bother they cant drop anything

[meganoth]

19 hours ago, leaderdog said:

I suppose we can justify anything away if we really want to. 

 

Simply put a stone age other than what you craft in a game like this is just dumb.  We potentially found guns on day one in all alphas except this one.  Yes change for the sake of change can be upsetting to many.  Change because you want to limit the start of the game hoping people won't notice the lack of end content is lazy, and detrimental to the game. Yep some people enjoy it.  And goooood for them.  Some people like their games with ridiculous limitations.  And bless their hearts that's great if they enjoy it.  If the pimps would have came out and said, this is a stepping stone to a different loot system please bear with us as we make the adjustments over the next alpha, I think you'd have less outcry than you did.   Without a simple statement like that it just looks like a horrible decision.

 

As for a blunderbuss being a gun.  Sure it is.  I'd bet all 1000 people (if that) in the states that own one proudly display them in a gun case or lock them away in their safe.  I'm being facetious here of course, but a blunderbuss is NOT a common firearm, nor is it a preferred firearm, nor is it a sought after by the general gun owners of any world, except collectors.  They're a pointless weapon that had their time in history and everyone moved on from them to much better, more accurate, and safer weapons.  So finding them with such frequency isn't enjoyable gameplay. 

 

The blunderbuss is just some humorous weirdness like a female trader with a male voice (sadly removed 😉 ). It is already announced to be replaced with a (compared to it rather mundane) pipe shotgun.

When it gets a different skin you might be pleased, I will see a funny and original item getting removed. I won't protest as I can see the reasoning, but 7D2D will be more uniform and bland for it.

Please tell us after A20 came out whether it really makes the game more fun for you when they put a different skin over the same weapon.

 

Quote

 

So to say you'll find a blunderbuss at all, should be more of a specialty or a collectable in the game rather than something you would actually use.  but ok, it's a game so I guess whatever.

 

When looting becomes boring because the randomization of it is taken out, it's tough to enjoy that part of the game.  Even as the game progresses the current and even all previous alphas, looting becomes some what pointless.  There's only so many jars and tin cans you need to find.  And when the majority of the loot becomes pointless, you start over.  The lack of end game content is and has been the issue for many alphas.  But it will hopefully come.  Lord willing not in a download pack but in the base game. Perhaps these changes are all leading towards specific loot being found only in specific buildings/zones or whatever, I guess time will tell, but for now we mod the game to fit our enjoyment as that really is one of the greatest things about this game.

 

I don't know about looting getting boring. There is so much stuff I need to find even in tier0 and it seems all the critics condense looting to weapons, as if that was all you need or want. This isn't a Doom.

In the loot-tier0 I want to find food and seeds foremost, then mods (because I have some slots to fill now in my quality5 primitive bow, axe blunderbuss, padded shoes, pants, ...). I need lots of materials to build my armor or even better, find armor. I want to find schematics, books, glue, glue and glue or bones. I need cobblestone and I need lots of money to sometimes be able to buy an item I'm missing.

 

Pending further changes (like bandits, legendary weapons and boss-zombies) end-game content by definition is tier3 stuff. That is in the game. If you are assuming a miraculous wonder pill that provides a fundamentally different experience in end-game you are deluding yourself. It won't appear. Game designers can't do miracles, they can't produce contents faster than players can consume it.

 

MMOs are the only games that provide an end-game loop. They do this by giving the players an endless grind and I'm sure that since you feel the early game as a grind now you would not like end-game grind like a quest to do tier5 dungeons 30 times to get a full armor set called the "Lightning armor of shiny super-metal".

 

Quote

 

I tried myself to mod the loot table within the first couple days of playing it, but I'm not good with modding, I can do some basic stuff, but this one was far more complicated, and thankfully someone on Nexusmods made one.  People screamed quit level limiting us, or locking things behind levels and then we get a loot table that is essentially locked behind a level gate or gamestage gate.  They had to know that wouldn't go over well. 

 

BUT again, mods are what make this game great when the devs make mistakes.  And so I just directed them to the mod so they can enjoy this great game again without nonsensical limitations.

 

As for why is it acceptable for progression in an RPG?  You start out with nothing, or very little training and build from there.  we'll use M&M 6/7 for examples.  You could go anywhere and fight anything, and with that you would get loot well above your level (mostly gold) you had to train your skills at a trainer.  I in fact argued when the skill tree came in, they should have specialized trainers you find and gain skills from them rather than the "ho boi I got a skill point to spend!!1"  which I mentioned was inspired by M&M 6.  anyways, You'd get your butt handed to you in some areas, or you would devise a clever plan to win.  That's a good rpg.  Let's take M&M 11(?) the last one they made.  It was a honking piece of crap.  You couldn't access some areas unless you were a certain level, level gating, and much of it was just so watered down and pointless that it became so boring to play.   Let's look back at 7d2d, these gating elements crept into the game and it started to upset people.  7d2d started out with no limitations (other than finding the recipes) and from there your imagination and own goals were the limits.  Now we have level limits, wait until you get more points to upgrade the one skill you want and blah blah blah.

 

I wouldn't be adverse to MM6 trainers, I liked MM6 very much. But even MM6 was clearly level-gated in loot and in areas. Go to a high-level area and monsters would one-shot kill you. There were speed-runners who could use some tricks and exploits to directly go there but for a normal player the random encounters told you where not to go. (Caveat: I played it a long time ago so I might misremember stuff)

 

Quote

 

But I'm over it.  Mod out the crap you don't like, or like me, wait until some kind soul does it because it's beyond your capabilities.  People will defend the pimps even if they make poor decisions, and that's ok.  I disagree that some changes were needed, but thankfully they were kind enough to allow you to mod out things you don't like.

 

oh also, I used to pretty much only play rpg games, until they became so boring because you're doing the same thing always regardless of the game you're playing.  So when 7d2d started adding rpg elements it was disappointing.  so needless to say, this beautiful unique game is turning into copies of other games with some unique elements.... so yeah, I don't like that.

 

Have fun, it's a game.  go get the mod off nexus and enjoy the way you like to play.

 

[Solomon]

20 hours ago, alanea said:

its needed ?  yes

It is only "needed" because our actually useable loot is such a small amount that you kind of need limitations on stuff just so the players dont get "everything" soo soon.

 

The fix is pretty damm obvious, we need more stuff to get and before someone comes to argue that theres already too many items ingame then please tell me why do we need put in a time barrier just so players can get all weapons on the first day?

 

Its because theres not much to have!

 

 

Also for the other argument that any new weapon would only be some numerical difference between it and a previous weapon, then explain to me why is it still profitable to release weapon dlcs when its just "numerical difference"?

 

People dont give a damm if pistol "X" deal 10 damage every 1 second and pistol "Y" deals 0.1 damage every 0.1 second, it simply doesnt matter if it offers players a "new" playstyle or just a new toy to play with.

[meganoth]

15 minutes ago, Solomon said:

It is only "needed" because our actually useable loot is such a small amount that you kind of need limitations on stuff just so the players dont get "everything" soo soon.

 

The fix is pretty damm obvious, we need more stuff to get and before someone comes to argue that theres already too many items ingame then please tell me why do we need put in a time barrier just so players can get all weapons on the first day?

 

Its because theres not much to have!

 

 

Also for the other argument that any new weapon would only be some numerical difference between it and a previous weapon, then explain to me why is it still profitable to release weapon dlcs when its just "numerical difference"?

 

People dont give a damm if pistol "X" deal 10 damage every 1 second and pistol "Y" deals 0.1 damage every 0.1 second, it simply doesnt matter if it offers players a "new" playstyle or just a new toy to play with.

"People" who pay for a new weapon skin DLC or new clothes DLC are mostly playing fortnight and are less than 18 years old and are legally not even allowed to play a title like 7D2D.

And I would guess the typical crowd playing 7D2D including the developers of the game itself are harder to please than with simple re-skins

 

EDIT: Sorry, forgot the gun nuts. Ok, the they want more weapons too, but they also want the correct ammo and fitting damage values with it. 

 

If you ask the developers for more fluff you probably will get "install a mod" as advice.

[Solomon]

4 hours ago, meganoth said:

"People" who pay for a new weapon skin DLC or new clothes DLC are mostly playing fortnight and are less than 18 years old and are legally not even allowed to play a title like 7D2D.

And I would guess the typical crowd playing 7D2D including the developers of the game itself are harder to please than with simple re-skins

 

EDIT: Sorry, forgot the gun nuts. Ok, the they want more weapons too, but they also want the correct ammo and fitting damage values with it. 

 

If you ask the developers for more fluff you probably will get "install a mod" as advice.

Not talking about skin dlcs but actual weapons.

 

Have you ever seen Warframe?

The game is F2P and its biggest source of income is the Prime Access what gives you 2 weapons and an upgraded char for the cheap price of 80$. Most of its userbase the last time the data was collected is between 26-34 the oldest players.

 

Hell in its history there was some problems with getting cash so a Founder program was started where people of the highest rank (approx 1000 players) have spent 250$ to keep the game running.

I had a guy on my friendlist who has spent more than 2K$ on this game, he was 43 when i last talked to him.

 

Point is people like to have more toys to play with and NOT just guns but new melee weapons too are desired.

[leaderdog]

@meganoth

I rarely use guns in 7d2d.  I still think there should be punishing returns for using noisy items (guns, vehicles, augers, etc) there used to be, I haven't seen a screamer in some time.  And I miss the 3 creepy screaming guys (current spider zombie) that if you messed up killing them would bring a small horde to you.  Guns should draw larger crowds, Spawn them around the corner of a building, behind a tree or something non immersion breaking.  Guns make noise, big guns make more noise. I play with that in mind and only use them for hunting, emergency situations, or trying to draw the attention of a group of zombies a bit of a ways off.

 

I set it so I have 60 zombies roaming around during the day (I'm sure I screwed something up because there is often way, way WAY more zombies I'm killing in a single day and they tend to gravitate my direction even when in buildings) but it adds more enjoyment for me to the game.  I don't like the current empty world game we're in.  And the only place you find zombies are in closets and what not in buildings.

 

I prefer the random loot so looting isn't boring, like it is now.  As for the developers not making a magic pill to make end game more engaging.  I agree. I'm not saying they will or even can at this point.  What I don't want it a ho hum boring start because as it was I was done playing 7d2d for this alpha because the start is sooo boring now because looting is half the fun, finding all the things!  But you don't, you find stone garbage tools/weapons and some mods and bullets.  Which is fine other than the stone crap.

 

I do not like a stone age/primitive weapons age/ or the fallout weapons like pipe guns and all that which it seems they're going to be bringing in.  In fallout that progression makes sense, however you can also find laser weapons rather early on.  But that is a lore thing.  You're MANY years past the fall of the world by the time you're out prancing around in the wastelands.  But this one I suppose once they do lay out their lore it will be easier to take, but as for now.  With houses with lights still on it makes it seem like the world has fallen recently.  So it's ridiculous to find primitive weapons in loot boxes.

 

MM6 wasn't "level gated" in the way 7d2d was/is  It was open world and yeah you could get one shot by the dragons but you had the ability to go there.  Obviously an early level newb wasn't going to stand a chance but until 7d2d has areas like that.  But I do admit it's been a couple years since I played it.  Loaded it up and gave it another play through not terribly long ago.  Your main limitations were level through training I think.  You still needed experience before you could put on the better armor.  Same with magic, you had to have enough experience before you could move up to stronger spells.  Again it makes sense in that context. But in 7d2d it doesn't.

 

I think we play very differently.  And that's great.  I play fast.  I had done enough quests in my current game to buy a motorbike(not the minibike) from the trader by day 5 I think it was.  Got lucky with a couple treasure chests as well to help pay for it.  But that's the beauty of the random loot.  It makes it a different experience every time you start, which makes it fun to start over.  Remove the randomness and each start over is the same. or so similar that may as well be the same.  Which again sucks the fun out of the game.  I don't play very often long into a game since I find it just gets boring.  Looting become stale because you've got everything.  The only time I play for a very long time in a single game is if I have an ambitious build I want to make.

 

Also, I'm playing Subquake's Undead Legacy which adds a nicer UI and has a weight system rather than the pimps limited bag.  So while you can carry more items, you can't carry a lot of iron or flagstone blocks or rebar.  But overall it's far more enjoyable system than this single feather just made you encumbered.

 

Anyways,  While we agree on some things, we'll disagree on others.  I hope you continue to enjoy the game.  and i look forward to what the pimps will do... and if I don't like it, I'll be grabbing a mod

9 minutes ago, Solomon said:

Not talking about skin dlcs but actual weapons.

 

Have you ever seen Warframe?

The game is F2P and its biggest source of income is the Prime Access what gives you 2 weapons and an upgraded char for the cheap price of 80$. Most of its userbase the last time the data was collected is between 26-34 the oldest players.

 

Hell in its history there was some problems with getting cash so a Founder program was started where people of the highest rank (approx 1000 players) have spent 250$ to keep the game running.

I had a guy on my friendlist who has spent more than 2K$ on this game, he was 43 when i last talked to him.

 

Point is people like to have more toys to play with and NOT just guns but new melee weapons too are desired.

Wow, I have a real problem with the micro transactions. I get it, they're old enough to make their own decisions, most of them, but these types of micro transactions, or purchasing items to improve your game play often play into people's OCD.  That's basically a company exploiting someone's disability and profiting from it.

 

My grandmother had Alzheimer's before the family realized what was going on.  Phone sales men were calling her all the time selling her pens with her name on it, wooden duck collections and all kinds of other worthless crap because they knew they could convince her to buy it. 

 

So I don't have any respect for game companies that do things like that.   but that's just one salty guys opinion

[Solomon]

1 hour ago, leaderdog said:

Wow, I have a real problem with the micro transactions. I get it, they're old enough to make their own decisions, most of them, but these types of micro transactions, or purchasing items to improve your game play often play into people's OCD.  That's basically a company exploiting someone's disability and profiting from it.

 

My grandmother had Alzheimer's before the family realized what was going on.  Phone sales men were calling her all the time selling her pens with her name on it, wooden duck collections and all kinds of other worthless crap because they knew they could convince her to buy it. 

 

So I don't have any respect for game companies that do things like that.   but that's just one salty guys opinion

Honestly the game runs on a model where you can pretty much earn anything for free or can trade for the premium currency what is also pretty easy to do.

 

Anything in the market is giftable and generally you can always find a some guy gifting away stuff also unlike some other games you pretty much only see whats in the market when you return from a mission and check the market console. Theres no advertising, big blinking alerts or bright "% off!" marks too.

 

Due to not having proper endgame and you can pretty much overpowered for like 90% of all gameplay there most people use their cash to buy fashion items to turn this:

Into this:

 

They from time to time release something what is put behind some nigh absurd grind to push the player into buying stuff but most of the time its quite fair.

[Boidster]

The games which offer 12 different (usually real-world accurate) assault rifles are different kinds of games from 7D2D. There's enough min/maxing to do between tiers and quality levels, let's not bring FAL vs M4 into the mix especially since the passage of time is so critical to the vanilla gameplay. If they want to remove the blunderbuss in favor of a more "modern" pipe/zip gun, alright. This game does not need the entire catalog of modern weaponry; it's not that kind of game and we can scratch that itch in other games.

 

1 hour ago, leaderdog said:

I had done enough quests in my current game to buy a motorbike(not the minibike) from the trader by day 5 I think it was.

Day 2 I noticed the trader had a minibike for 12K. I looked at my 800 Duke stash...

 

 

I did 3 quests each day including one 1.1KM away, running there and back and consuming all my bacons and eggs (bacon and eggses? baconses?) during that time. Sold everything to the trader, and chose rewards purely based on how much they'd sell for. End of Day 4, I had the minibike and 127 Dukes left over.

 

 

Hope I don't need all those medkits I sold back to him! After they adjust trader stock to more closely follow loot progression, I wonder if this will still be doable. I hope so, since minibike is technically something you could craft pretty early in the game if you find a working forge and workbench and the schematics. It was a lot of fun chasing down the Dukes.

[RipClaw]

1 hour ago, leaderdog said:

I haven't seen a screamer in some time

Your screamers are all in my iron mine. You are welcome to pick them up anytime. It would be my pleasure to return them to you.

 

[leaderdog]

30 minutes ago, Boidster said:

The games which offer 12 different (usually real-world accurate) assault rifles are different kinds of games from 7D2D. There's enough min/maxing to do between tiers and quality levels, let's not bring FAL vs M4 into the mix especially since the passage of time is so critical to the vanilla gameplay. If they want to remove the blunderbuss in favor of a more "modern" pipe/zip gun, alright. This game does not need the entire catalog of modern weaponry; it's not that kind of game and we can scratch that itch in other games.

 

Day 2 I noticed the trader had a minibike for 12K. I looked at my 800 Duke stash...

 

 

I did 3 quests each day including one 1.1KM away, running there and back and consuming all my bacons and eggs (bacon and eggses? baconses?) during that time. Sold everything to the trader, and chose rewards purely based on how much they'd sell for. End of Day 4, I had the minibike and 127 Dukes left over.

 

 

Hope I don't need all those medkits I sold back to him! After they adjust trader stock to more closely follow loot progression, I wonder if this will still be doable. I hope so, since minibike is technically something you could craft pretty early in the game if you find a working forge and workbench and the schematics. It was a lot of fun chasing down the Dukes.

Nice job :)

 

These types of things do become personal challenges which are great.

 

Thing is, if they hadn't put the trader in, we were busy running around looking for recipes.  Then making the minibike.  I still miss the old minibike, it was far more fun building it, then upgrading it as you found better batteries and engines.  I think the traders make the game far to easy.  I know I could just not use them, but I always end up selling the junk I don't use like crossbow parts, steel spear parts, steel sledge hammer parts.  I really wish they'd let us scrap those for metal, or melt them in the forge.  Otherwise, they're useless to me except to sell to the trader. 

 

Shoot, when I realized that minibikes never ran out of battery power. I had minibikes all over my towers to illuminate horde night.  Mind you, I did that when the batteries would run low, I'd just keep swapping out the batteries into the minibike I drove to recharge them.

 

So much creativity in thinking to utilize what you had back then.  I guess with this many hours under the belt the "new" stuff doesn't really feel like it adds much, and often makes it feel like much has been diminished.

 

But if loot in the trader is going to scale with gamestage I'll again be annoyed with something so silly as a game limiting mechanic.  Why would the retailer just not have anything of use but stone tools to sell, or whatever the low end weapon/tools they're going to be adding.  I guess if you're selling him lots of stuff they could have the trader say: "Thanks to you I've been able to upgrade my inventory".   At least then you'd have a "Sense" of progression for those that need it. ;)  But more likely the trader would say, "You've sold me enough crap, you're going to make me go broke, get out of here with that junk!"   :)   /shrug

[lug]

the thrill of accepting a challenge and triumphing is a great game feeling. new players to the vanilla game please be aware that the items a vendor has for sale will be adjusted every three days; so that what you see available on day 2 may not still be there on day 4.  hustle accordingly. the next merchandise reset day is displayed in the interaction screen with the vendor