Duke to Brass ratio needs to be seriously nerfed

[Ghostlight]

It's a bit of both, or really 3 separate issues.

 

1. Dukes are worth far more then the brass items that you can buy with them

2. Quests are such an overbalanced way to get brass that it renders any other method to be almost pointless

3. Shared quests make this so exploitable allowing people to get 50k+ brass a day easily

 

 

For #1 they could always rebalance the cost of brass items

For #2 that's gonna be much harder, and take a lot more thought. Having more involved quests would go a long way into resolving this though

For #3 it could easily be fixed by making those you share a quest with get a lesser reward then the main quest holder

 

1. Easy fix. Or remove those pointless Brass items from trader stock.

 

2. Not everyone quests. Some people do not quest at all, so leave it. You cannot balance the game round the assumption that every group is efficiently questing every day and earning 50k dukes.

 

3. Same deal. Not everyone quests. Additionally some groups might go through 50k Brass a day. Shrug. Who are you to say 50k is too much? I know for a fact that an Insane level t5 clear quest at high gamestage will take us the whole day. So not only will we not earn anywhere near 50k dukes, but also we could easily use 10k casings in a single quest. Maybe more.

[theFlu]

With their focus on getting people to actually bother with quests, they've made it "the best way to spend your time" .. with travel time and other logistics, it needs to be pretty heftily better than just straight up looting. If it's any good for a single player, and you multiply the quest portion by a group of any size, it's essentially unbalancable already. The only downside for the group is total travel time, but that also basically becomes a benefit when you can select several quests in one area.

 

Smelting dukes is just a major side-effect of that decision; that could somewhat be alleviated by removing the duke-smelt and stockpiling traders with masses of "properly priced" brass, whatever the proper price would be. But it would still leave the group multiplier untouched, and the overall economy balancing... well, I wouldn't give awards for the overall economy design in this iteration either, so .. there is no economy design, just "traders need to sell everything" and "we'll hack at it until it works"

[Limdood]

See the game is designed and balanced around not using cheese. But cheese exist. The game is designed around the idea of going through a POI the proper way, not nerdpolling, not using horde night exploits and proper in design behavior by the player is unenforced...

if that were the case, the rewards for clear and fetch/clear T5 quests wouldn't be specified to be better than T5 fetch.

 

The cheese will not always be there, thats what you gotta remember.

 

Do you see?

sure it will. The AI already has gone through a VERY large number of iterations, with sweeping changes each time. In each case, players found ways to completely cheese the AI in a matter of minutes.

 

They won't be able to make a perfect AI. They won't be able to keep players from avoiding hordes if they want to. They won't be able to keep players from busting around obstacles since they've built a voxel game in a destructible world.

 

The cheese will continue to exist. It just might end up taking SLIGHTLY longer workarounds.

[Sjustus548]

It is very hard to balance a game like this around the player base because there are so many different kinds of play styles. Also you have to take in to account whether someone is playing solo, in a small group, or in a group of 20+. You cheese POIs to get T5 quests cleared faster and with the most efficient way possible with a small group while someone else might take their time and clear it room by room solo. At times I've cheesed Blood Moon nights so that the zombies couldn't get to me. So should the game be balanced around that and made to where they can get to me no matter what I do? If the zombies haven't gotten to me in the first 30min of night then they all gain the ability to climb blocks or destroy blocks with one hit? That would fit my play style but would screw over anyone else that plays the game differently.

 

As for the trader selling brass, he also sells food for more expensive than you get get it from the machines. I see it as a tier system. If you can't find something you have to buy it. Maybe they need to just remove the ability to smelt dukes down in to brass. There is plenty of brass just laying around that it really isn't needed anymore in my opinion.

[Ghostlight]

if that were the case, the rewards for clear and fetch/clear T5 quests wouldn't be specified to be better than T5 fetch.

 

Actually you may be onto something. Fetch quest rewards (and Buried Supplies) quests should give considerably less reward than Clear-based quests, since you can do both those types with considerably less expenditure of both time and resources (ammo).

[Brian9824]

1. Easy fix. Or remove those pointless Brass items from trader stock.

 

2. Not everyone quests. Some people do not quest at all, so leave it. You cannot balance the game round the assumption that every group is efficiently questing every day and earning 50k dukes.

 

3. Same deal. Not everyone quests. Additionally some groups might go through 50k Brass a day. Shrug. Who are you to say 50k is too much? I know for a fact that an Insane level t5 clear quest at high gamestage will take us the whole day. So not only will we not earn anywhere near 50k dukes, but also we could easily use 10k casings in a single quest. Maybe more.

 

Well the argument that not everyone does it doesn't actually solve the problem. If building leveled you 20x faster then any other activity people wouldn't say its fine because not everyone builds. They'd want it balanced with other activities.

 

Just because some people don't quest, doesn't mean it should be 20x better then any other way out there. All ways should be roughly equal, thus it doesn't matter if you choose to quest or not.

 

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It is very hard to balance a game like this around the player base because there are so many different kinds of play styles. Also you have to take in to account whether someone is playing solo, in a small group, or in a group of 20+. You cheese POIs to get T5 quests cleared faster and with the most efficient way possible with a small group while someone else might take their time and clear it room by room solo. At times I've cheesed Blood Moon nights so that the zombies couldn't get to me. So should the game be balanced around that and made to where they can get to me no matter what I do? If the zombies haven't gotten to me in the first 30min of night then they all gain the ability to climb blocks or destroy blocks with one hit? That would fit my play style but would screw over anyone else that plays the game differently.

 

As for the trader selling brass, he also sells food for more expensive than you get get it from the machines. I see it as a tier system. If you can't find something you have to buy it. Maybe they need to just remove the ability to smelt dukes down in to brass. There is plenty of brass just laying around that it really isn't needed anymore in my opinion.

 

Not really. One very good change would be to how sharing quests works. It doesn't make sense that sharing a quest gives everyone the exact same reward as the quest owner.

 

Shared quests should give a totally different reward, less dukes, etc. The fact that a shared quest is the full reward is mostly what makes it incredibly OP in a group.

[OzHawkeye]

Actually you may be onto something. Fetch quest rewards (and Buried Supplies) quests should give considerably less reward than Clear-based quests, since you can do both those types with considerably less expenditure of both time and resources (ammo).

 

I'd agree with that. They are definitely easier most of the time.

 

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Shared quests should give a totally different reward, less dukes, etc. The fact that a shared quest is the full reward is mostly what makes it incredibly OP in a group.

 

I'd agree with also. ;-)

[JaxTeller718]

Fun pimps, please dont balance the game around people that cheese pois. I dont

 

You wanna cheese you do you. I have been know to do it.

 

[Cadamier]

Well I too would say that the Duke:Brass ratio need to be adjusted.

[Scyris]

I got a easy solution, just don't melt dukes down if you feel its broken? Like for example I will not use junk turrets outside of horde night UNLESS I am a int build with perks in turret syndrome.. why? because its brokenly overpowered and makes the game a joke, the knockdown is what makes junk turrets so good, its not their damage.

[Scyris]

Skimmed the thread. Fun pimps, please dont balance the game around people that cheese pois. I dont and if you balanced for that I'd be screwed and screwed for playing the pois as intended.

 

Not judging either. You wanna cheese you do you. I have been know to do it. But I dont come to the forums asking for nerfs based on that either.

 

I generally avoid cheesing the game as much as possible, as it just detracts from the fun. About the only cheese I do, is wrenching cars before I start a quest at a poi which respawns them so I can wrench them again. I never like double loot the same poi by using the quest system back to back. Just like I never use junk turrets outside of horde night, as its a major way to cheese the game with their knockdown ability and ease of ammo. Only way I would is would be if I was a high int build with points in turret syndrome, which probally will never happen as I generally build with 0 int and rely on rng to get the schematics, its more fun for me that way.

[Kattla]

The ratio of dukes to brass is far too generous. It should be closer to 10 dukes = 1 scrap brass. It's at the point where there is never any reason to buy the brass items from the trader because the raw dukes are so much better. Plus with t5 quests rewarding 4-5k or more of dukes, 1 quest can give you in excess of over 2000 casings.

 

I had some friends who were going around breaking radiators and spending all day in a building to gather 2k brass. I did a few quests in the same period of time and got 30k brass, plus the quest rewards, the xp, and more loot from the other POI's.

 

IMO the ratio of dukes to brass is fine as it is. I see the dukes->brass conversion as a placeholder or makeshift solution to not beeing able to recycle spent bulletcasings and a countermeasure to possible brass shortage on multiplayer. Personally i'd rather see recycling of spent bulletcasings, but i can live with dukes->brass for the time beeing.

 

Odd, but not surprising, those who seem to have the biggest issue with the ratio of dukes->brass are the ones least affected by it. Hence why i suggest those people find someone to make them a modlet, or adjust the ratio in their xml files, to adjust the ratio to what they want, since it's so important to them.

 

If any change needed, perhaps let the trader have larger stockpiles of feathers and polymers , so both gunslingers and bowhunters are happy.

[Ghostlight]

Odd, but not surprising, those who seem to have the biggest issue with the ratio of dukes->brass are the ones least affected by it.

 

Yup. The problem is always the assumption that everyone else plays like you do, and hence has the exact same surplus of X, Y and Z that you do, and the exact same RNG luck. This is almost never the case!! RNG is RNG and everyone has a miriad of different settings they can change, and xml files they can alter; there's also solo versus MP differences, public versus private server differences, everything. So it's extremely rare that any 2 players will have the same experience.

 

This is why I argue that the answer to the question:

 

"Is there too much X in the game?"

 

always has to be "Nope".

[Ghostlight]

I got a easy solution, just don't melt dukes down if you feel its broken? Like for example I will not use junk turrets outside of horde night UNLESS I am a int build with perks in turret syndrome.. why? because its brokenly overpowered and makes the game a joke, the knockdown is what makes junk turrets so good, its not their damage.

 

And the fact they have no friendly fire is utterly ridiculous. Just saying.

[Ghostlight]

Well the argument that not everyone does it doesn't actually solve the problem.

 

Well in the case of your example.....making 50k dukes per day from quests is nigh on impossible for a lot of players. It takes an absolute niche set of circumstances for that to be possible. We can't do it for example because :

 

1) We have only found a single trader in our map

2) Tier 5's take us a full day per quest (Insane; GS 600+)

3) There are only 2 of us.

4) Tier 5's costs us 2000 ammo per quest, so we simply don't have the ammo to do any more than we do.

 

So we manage 10k dukes per day.

[Brian9824]

I got a easy solution, just don't melt dukes down if you feel its broken? Like for example I will not use junk turrets outside of horde night UNLESS I am a int build with perks in turret syndrome.. why? because its brokenly overpowered and makes the game a joke, the knockdown is what makes junk turrets so good, its not their damage.

 

That makes no sense. So the solution to every overpowered thing in the game is just don't use it? I mean at that point why bother balancing and just make every gun 1 shot a zombie. If you don't like it you can always not use the guns. Game's need to be balanced. It's like saying if i use an AK on a horde night my char will insta die, and replying with well don't use an AK on horde night.....

 

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Yup. The problem is always the assumption that everyone else plays like you do, and hence has the exact same surplus of X, Y and Z that you do, and the exact same RNG luck. This is almost never the case!! RNG is RNG and everyone has a miriad of different settings they can change, and xml files they can alter; there's also solo versus MP differences, public versus private server differences, everything. So it's extremely rare that any 2 players will have the same experience.

 

This is why I argue that the answer to the question:

 

"Is there too much X in the game?"

 

always has to be "Nope".

 

Except none of that is true. There is no RNG in quests. They are guaranteed and will give you the reward every time. Unlike the RNG to get a building with a good supply of brass for instance. Again it boils down to the fact that its the most efficient way to get brass by literally a factor of 10x or more.

 

I mean imagine if a certain gun did 10x more damage then any other gun, fired faster, cost less to make ammo etc. Would the response be to balance it, or would you go around and tell people to not use the gun or make xml changes to make it less OP?

 

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Well in the case of your example.....making 50k dukes per day from quests is nigh on impossible for a lot of players. It takes an absolute niche set of circumstances for that to be possible. We can't do it for example because :

 

1) We have only found a single trader in our map

2) Tier 5's take us a full day per quest (Insane; GS 600+)

3) There are only 2 of us.

4) Tier 5's costs us 2000 ammo per quest, so we simply don't have the ammo to do any more than we do.

 

So we manage 10k dukes per day.

 

Again, if its taking you a full day per quest then your doing something seriously wrong or are not playing on standard time settings and have shortened the days. Also if your using 2000 ammo per quest you have some HORRENDOUS aim. It would be rare for us to use more then 3-400 rounds in total for a t5 quest and often we use far less. We melee 90% of it, and only use guns for big groups to weaken em.

[Kalen]

2) Tier 5's take us a full day per quest (Insane; GS 600+)

 

As far as this point, it's been stated that the game is balanced for the default difficulty... so using Insane difficulty as an argument for balance isn't completely relevant.

[Kattla]

We melee 90% of it, and only use guns for big groups to weaken em.

 

Thought so.

Melee 90%, and still use 300-400 rounds of gun ammo, i think using 2000 rounds is about twice as good as your aim.

Question is, why melee 90% of it? Not to save on brass, ammo or time i guess....

[OzHawkeye]

Thought so.

Melee 90%, and still use 300-400 rounds of gun ammo, i think using 2000 rounds is about twice as good as your aim.

Question is, why melee 90% of it? Not to save on brass, ammo or time i guess....

 

Why spend the bullets when you can just whack 'em over the head?

 

I only use guns when I have to.

[Aldranon]

I definitely think a lot of cheesing would be solved by making the quests a bit more involved. A basic fetch quest is just too easy at t5, people will hate me for saying this but honestly all the fetch quests should scale with tier.

 

Tier 1 quest - Find 1 item

Tier 5 quest - Find 5 items

 

That doesn't solve the issue that doing quests for brass is far far far more lucrative then farming items for brass, especially as those items won't respawn (unless you do quests......). Then it becomes even more crazy when you do them in groups and can get 4-5 quests right nex tto each other or even in the same POI.

 

We've literally ran the bookstore skyscraper 3 times in a row and got so much loot because 3 of us had quests there.

 

I agree about the fetch quest being too easy.

 

Maybe one quest box per tier? So a Tier 5 fetch quest has 5 loot boxes in various locations? I'm not sure really, as I tend to avoid T5 quests.

[Ghostlight]

Except none of that is true. There is no RNG in quests. They are guaranteed and will give you the reward every time. Unlike the RNG to get a building with a good supply of brass for instance. Again it boils down to the fact that its the most efficient way to get brass by literally a factor of 10x or more.

 

This is just one example. There are plenty of others where people state there is too much X in teh game where RNG is in play.

 

Also mining under a surface Iron node is the most efficient way to get Iron by literally a factor of 100x or more. So what?

 

Again, if its taking you a full day per quest then your doing something seriously wrong or are not playing on standard time settings and have shortened the days. Also if your using 2000 ammo per quest you have some HORRENDOUS aim. It would be rare for us to use more then 3-400 rounds in total for a t5 quest and often we use far less. We melee 90% of it, and only use guns for big groups to weaken em.

 

You can easily empty an AK clip on the big irradiated zombies, and you really cannot melee them down. You cannot do enough damage to bring them down in a timely manner. With a rad remover mod....maybe, but when there's 12 of them at a time....right. I am starting to realise we are doing tier 5s at very different difficulties and/or gamestages. Melee is not an option and I am fully specced for melee.

[Ghostlight]

As far as this point, it's been stated that the game is balanced for the default difficulty... so using Insane difficulty as an argument for balance isn't completely relevant.

 

So like I said when you complain there is too much X in the game or some ratio is out of whack, don't assume everyone's experience is the same as yours.

 

The game is balanced around default huh? Is that solo default or 8 player co-op default on a MP server with 100 regular players? And is that balance made around a play-style of X, Y or Z?

 

See what I'm getting at? You cannot balance the game for everyone, so it's dangerous just to assume you're right when you state the dukes/brass ratio is out of whack.

[Kalen]

So like I said when you complain there is too much X in the game or some ratio is out of whack, don't assume everyone's experience is the same as yours.

 

The game is balanced around default huh? Is that solo default or 8 player co-op default on a MP server with 100 regular players? And is that balance made around a play-style of X, Y or Z?

 

See what I'm getting at? You cannot balance the game for everyone, so it's dangerous just to assume you're right when you state the dukes/brass ratio is out of whack.

 

Right, and they're not trying to balance it around everyone. I don't remember the exact quote, but I believe it was to the effect that the game is currently balanced around single player on default difficulty. For single player at default difficulty, the duke/brass ratio is out of whack in my experience.

 

I'm sure once they're satisfied with the balance for single player/default difficulty, they'll start looking at other game configurations.

[Brian9824]

Thought so.

Melee 90%, and still use 300-400 rounds of gun ammo, i think using 2000 rounds is about twice as good as your aim.

Question is, why melee 90% of it? Not to save on brass, ammo or time i guess....

 

Sorry, try to read what I typed. Rare to use MORE Then that. Most of the time we use far less ammo. It all depends on how many oh ♥♥♥♥ moments we have, if they start falling thru the roof all around us, etc.

 

We melee because we don't NEED to use guns and why waste ammo that we could instead use on horde night. Plus meleeing is quieter and it doesn't pull every zombie to us.

 

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This is just one example. There are plenty of others where people state there is too much X in teh game where RNG is in play.

 

Also mining under a surface Iron node is the most efficient way to get Iron by literally a factor of 100x or more. So what?

 

 

 

You can easily empty an AK clip on the big irradiated zombies, and you really cannot melee them down. You cannot do enough damage to bring them down in a timely manner. With a rad remover mod....maybe, but when there's 12 of them at a time....right. I am starting to realise we are doing tier 5s at very different difficulties and/or gamestages. Melee is not an option and I am fully specced for melee.

 

Well first of all if your emptying an AK clip on an irradiated zombie and not killing it your aim is horrendous. Don't spray and pray. Use controlled bursts and aim for the head. It also staggers them allowing a melee person in your group to walk up and pound them while staggered.

 

I melee radiated zombies all the time. When i'm running t5's and get multiple radiated zombies I use an m60 and use at most 2-3 bullets per to blast em in the head, stagger or knock em down, then switch to my baseball bat and finish em off. It's a piece of cake. In a group I often don't even need to use my gun as we just sandwhich em. It's not very hard when you mod your weapons for stun and knockdown.

 

If you are doing T5's as a group you need teamwork. We have a mix of melee and ranged and cover each other.

 

80% damage reduction + health regen and I don't care if I take a few hits. They are healed in a minute or two.

 

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So like I said when you complain there is too much X in the game or some ratio is out of whack, don't assume everyone's experience is the same as yours.

 

The game is balanced around default huh? Is that solo default or 8 player co-op default on a MP server with 100 regular players? And is that balance made around a play-style of X, Y or Z?

 

See what I'm getting at? You cannot balance the game for everyone, so it's dangerous just to assume you're right when you state the dukes/brass ratio is out of whack.

 

Per Madmole its balanced around SP at the standard settings. Anything other then that they don't worry about balance and its up to people to change it. Hence why I posted a suggestion to change how quest rewards work for MP.

 

In SP its broken as heck with the ratio. Clearly you disagree since your playing on super hard difficulties and spray bullets everywhere missing so you have a different perspective. So you can mod your files when you want to play insane since your playing on a difficulty that its not balanced for rather then making everyone else suffer.

[Ghostlight]

I love how you assume we miss instead of assuming we are facing far tougher enemies.

 

I actually tested this on the big irradiated bikers (which is by far the most common enemy we face). You cannot kill them with a tier 5 baseball bat, fully modded, 5/5 Pummel Pete without rad remover. They regen too many HP. You think if melee was viable I'd be using bullets? Try a dozen of them at a time with melee. Although having said that, Irradiated Spiders are the toughest enemy in the game.