BOOM HEAD... shot? HEY! No fair!

[Xane Tempest]

Has anyone else been struggling with getting melee head-shots?

I've been noticing that even 'direct hits' have been giving me a blood splatter from the neck or lower and the zombies aren't reacting as if I hit them in the face.

Shooting (short of missing a shot with an arrow) I hit 90% of the time (and that is down to my accuracy) but with melee, it's more like a 50/50 if I will even hit and it's only a head-shot as intended when they're in the middle of an animation and I catch them lucky.

 

Am I going crazy? I'm trying to get some decent footage of this happening, but my stream recordings are rubbish quality and I want something clear.

 

(and yes, the poll is so that people can 'answer' without needing to use all them letter-y things and words 'n stuff!

and we can make polls. Weee!)

 

No idea if this helps, but clubs seem to have this problem with any attack mode. Knives' power attack does NOT have this issue. It's pretty on-point (heh, geddit? point? no... fine...)

[meganoth]

I made some tests recently and my main problem was making certain I really hit the head because the zombie heads are swinging wildly. Then I got the tip that you can turn off zombie AI in debug mode if you hit "0" on the number pad. Select a zombie with minimal head animation in idle and you can test first whether you are targetting the correct locations or whether their hit-boxes are buggy. Then contrast this with AI-enabled zombies. If you get much worse results in the latter case your timing might be off.

[Orclover]

Problem is it might be their animation that is buggy. But yea if somebody can turn the zeds into target dummies and record the melee results with all the melee weapons it might answer some questions. Personally I think it was the buggy "random zed in an area gets hit" when swining that is messing up the hit detection. I think maybe the hits try to hit a random zed in an area around the one you are targeting and there are no other zeds there, so it just misses everybody. Then again sledge users are saying they can see the block behind the zeds getting hit now. That would be different.

[Limdood]

timing is an issue. The hit is only recorded in a given instant, which doesn't always line up with what an individual player might expect for when their hit lands (and even from player to player, expectations vary).

 

This results in lining up a head shot, keeping the crosshair over the head for as long as you can, but with the twitchy AF animations, the exact instant that the melee attack actually checks for a hit is easily often after the head jerks to the side or up or down.

 

It is particularly noticeable with the spear and club. The spear because the hit check seems to be just before the end of the animation of thrusting forwards. So your spear might even "pass through" the head at the beginning of a close swing, but by the time the hit is meant to register, isn't lined up anymore. Similarly, trying to launch the attack and drop the crosshair onto the head for the end of the animation (like you might do if you are using the axe to chop an out of reach block...start the swing, then jump so that the crosshair is lined up for the moment the attack is actually calculated) can easily result in the attack calculating before your crosshair is lined up, even though the animation shows a clean thrust to the head.

 

The club has a similar problem with the delay in the start of the swing, and then the abruptness of the actual motion of the weapon - this makes it hard to predict the exact moment the attack calculates (imagine trying to give someone a high five when you know they're trying to move their hand away....you give a little fake start to see if they'll move, then as quickly as possible, try to slap their hand....that's what trying to predict the club swing feels like...a stutter, then a sudden super fast swing)

 

Contrast this with ANY ranged weapon. All guns have instant bullet travel time...if the crosshair is lined up when you hit the mouse button, it's a hit...they might still juke it if you were trying to time a specific motion and miscalculated, but there is no element of "click, then wait, then the attack hits the crosshair at some point in the future...which is defferent for each melee weapon"

 

As far as I see it, there are 3 "solutions" to this problem....from easiest to implement to hardest, they are:

1) tell the players nothing is changing and they just have to get used to it. With enough practice, the delay starts to feel more natural, or at least easier to subconsciously account for. People will still constantly complain, and for good reason, as melee is basically a "delayed fire gunshot" at the point of the crosshair. The anemic splash damage they added in A18 is a mixed bag...it's damage, sure, but it's miniscule and can trigger the rage just as easily as a direct hit. I often finding myself wishing i'd whiffed completely rather than glance (but for a snake or chicken, glancing is a big benefit)

 

2) make weapon swings instant....have weapons be "pre-cocked," so that when i click, that's when the weapon is landing it's hit. It makes perfect sense for spear, punch, knife, and baton (to a degree). It'd feel weird for sledge and club, but it would solve the immense frustration over the variable delay hit on each melee weapon and the FEEL of "wrongness" over swinging a weapon horizontally right to left, and missing a zombie while hitting a block 1 inch to the left and 1 foot behind the head you were aiming at.

 

3) make weapons calculate FULL hits across their entire arc for the duration of the swing animation. So, with current animations, spears would have a very lenient hit timing (the entire duration of the forward movement of the thrust) but tighter targeting, while clubs and sledges would have a dynamically moving hitbox that would collide with the first thing in the path. I can hardly even imagine the immense difficulty in making melee combat feel this realistic, and it's probably completely beyond the capabilities of the game, but there is no denying that melee feels awkward with knuckle dusters, knives, clubs, sledgehammers, and spears all acting like delayed-action gunshots at a specific point, rather than swings with a hand-held weapon moving along a set path.

 

Honestly, TFP clearly recognizes the issues. There is no other reason to put in the glancing damage on melee swings that was introduced with A18, but combined with other new mechanics, it remains both not enough, and occasionally even actively MORE frustrating.

 

"Fixing" melee combat to keep the delay and timing of a swing, and still making it feel intuitive and "fair" is probably beyond the platform of the game, and it might be time to cut the losses for trying to get the realistic looking melee combat and implementing an "instant strike" melee mechanic. Either making the click be the exact moment the hit is calculated (with slower weapons having a longer delay before they are "ready" to attack again), or even putting in a hold-to-charge, then release-to-instantly-hit (with slower weapons having a longer "charge up" - which would also keep most of the animation for the attacks and make it look nice)

[Axebeard]

The melee weapons don't hit exactly on the crosshairs, you have to actually watch where they impact, and of course it's different for each weapon.

[theFlu]

The melee weapons don't hit exactly on the crosshairs, you have to actually watch where they impact, and of course it's different for each weapon.

 

That's a claim I'd like some more info on, before taking it at face value.

[Orclover]

Somebody did some vid capture:

 

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?134030-Do-zombies-have-i-frames-now/page3

 

Thx kuratowakiru.

[erlgrey]

That's a claim I'd like some more info on, before taking it at face value.

 

just enable the debug view for the swings, this should be a valid source.

[theFlu]

just enable the debug view for the swings, this should be a valid source.

 

You could've just typed out the "how" while at it, instead of making me ask Could honestly be interesting, haven't spotted the option yet, haven't actually looked for it either.

 

But, just based on my hours in A18 exp, I'm pretty confident that the "proper hits" still land like they used to, dead center of crosshairs on one instant. I may be wrong of course, if they changed something in a very recent patch, or it's close enough to the old that the old way of hitting still works fine. I'm not entirely sure I'm willing to spend much time investigating the claim, but I might.

 

Now, to complete the claim, and to enable any testing; (not necessarily for you erlgrey, since you've made no claim here, but for anyone who can)

which weapon and by how much should I MISS a zombie to deal a "proper hit" with the center of the crosshairs OFF the zombie?

for example: "baseball bat", "half a head height above" or "just above the lowest edge of the crosshair"

[erlgrey]

Think it was showswings command in console, probably check help. On mobile so can't check.

[theFlu]

Think it was showswings command in console, probably check help. On mobile so can't check.

 

Thanks Yeah, F1: showswings .. seemed to turn on showhits automatically as well. Fun to try to group up the glancing arcs into the tightest group possible.

[Scyris]

I voted no, see my thread about zombie i-frames which has a video clearly showing a zombie ignoring a clear and clean torso/shoulder hit. The video creator even had hit markers turned on, so if it did hit and we missed it, there would have been a arrow like the purple one in the video showing where the hit connected/landed. Part of the reason for missing headshots is how janky their head movements are, its the only zombie game where the zombies move their head like a frigging fallout bobblehead thats been flicked. Other part is just hits not registering, as the video in my thread on i-frames I mentioned shows.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Somebody did some vid capture:

 

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?134030-Do-zombies-have-i-frames-now/page3

 

Thx kuratowakiru.

 

This is the video I was talking about, just finished reading the entire post and seen it.

[warmer]

The only time I get 100% headshots are sleeping zombies when raiding a POI. EASY to get when they are "sleeping"

 

I feel like "timing" now is VERY specific vs. previously when the timing felt much looser.

[Scyris]

The only time I get 100% headshots are sleeping zombies when raiding a POI. EASY to get when they are "sleeping"

 

I feel like "timing" now is VERY specific vs. previously when the timing felt much looser.

 

If your using sledge you don't even get those, many times I have stealth headshotted a zombie, and it hit the block behind the zombie inside of the zombies head, the hit went right thru ignoring the zombie. Had it happen rarely on torso swings on a sleeper with a sledgehammer too. Hits block behind zombie instead of hitting the zombie. This is easy to tell because the zombie doesn't die or wake up, it just stays there like nothing happened meanwhile the block under it is gone(if its a wood block) or damaged (anything higher than wood).

[Feycat]

I've had zero problems blowing up heads using a spear to poke them like a balloon. POP!

[theFlu]

Hmm.. the showswings might not be all that accurate, I'm staring at an Old Timer with about 5 swing lines through his body and almost as many thru his head. He's still at full health. 285/285.

 

Also, could be that the melee isn't registering properly

 

Repro steps:

Load up my old faithful test world (old as in several patches old navezgane)

cm, dm, AI off (*), entity stats on (numpad 0)

F6 => Old Timer Feral

Power strike with a club while moving the aim opposite to the swing (to try and get the most lines through him)

Also repro with swinging along the swing.

Also repro just swinging while aiming stably right past him in any direction...

 

Result, one tough Old Timer, he doesn't even flinch. A third of the time or so.

[erlgrey]

its probably more like showswings is fine and you just don't hit, even if you should.

 

depending on the position i even don't hit static blocks, because the blow goes right past the first one which you are aiming at.

it would be a bit pathetic to say, everything is fine there, move on..

[SickPuppy]

Felt I was getting better aiming right for the head, consistent head shots, but there are times when I miss on a clear hit. OK sometimes bad aim, but if aiming for chin/neck area surely there should be contact? I mean cmon even Mr Magoo can hit a zed with a sledge...I think.

[Teal]

Seems to be working fine for me. Can anybody confirm if arcing blows can hit one zombie multiple times? That could be why you're seeing blood spatter even when landing headshots because afaik, there's little to no blood splatter for normal headshots.

[Saurus]

i feel melee combat a bit inconsistent, while it seems work most of the time, i often get some misses with properly aimed blows

[ZombieSurvivor]

It is now working fine for me. Before A18.1 I would miss and miss and miss...more like go through the zombie. That all seems to be fixed now.

[Scyris]

It is now working fine for me. Before A18.1 I would miss and miss and miss...more like go through the zombie. That all seems to be fixed now.

 

18.1 here i've still had it happen a few times, where I hit the block behind the zombie instead of its head I was aimed perfectly at when it was on the floor.

[mr.natural]

It is so bad on a server that I hardly use melee anymore

[Axebeard]

I'm seeing more consistent multi-zombie hits with the latest patch I THINK. Hard to tell really, but even with a Level 6 Spear, I noticed a trio of zombies getting knocked around with it.

[Xane Tempest]

Not sure if I missed a patch, but I'm noticing a LOT more headshots making contact... No idea what changed, but it's like night and day (namely, I CAN hit them in the head now)

 

Hope things are working well for the others who noticed a difference