Alpha 18 Dev Diary!!

[Guppycur]

Agreed.

 

... mostly because I was that someone.

[JaxTeller718]

Again, Madmole is talking about the default vanilla version of the game that they want to get to gold. I can’t count how many times people have requested in the past for TFP to polish what they have, optimize, fix the remaining bugs and release the game. TFP now feels the same way.

 

 

I think a lot of people felt this way about 16 in hindsight to how 17 turned out. Some were looking forward to what the build would be now off 17.

 

 

Yeh, maybe players that look up to that modders are sensitive to the "look at me!" attitude of some of that modders lately? Dunno...

 

Cheers

 

Interesting. Above all else I'm a player first modder second. I would throw RH is the trash right now if asked and continue to play for myself and my wife. RH was never supposed to be public. It was a server only mod. The people were drawn to it and I was asked to release it publicly. It's been a great experience but there are times my life would be FAR easier if I had never gone public. It feels a lot like a 9 to 5 at times.

 

That said I don't think I have heard any modders really trying to gain some type of glory. I have an opinion as do others. If you are allowed to express yours I am allowed to express mine, regardless of what I have released or done in the past. I dare say people like Ouch, Louie, Demonoid and Guppy should be listened to far before me. They have been here far longer.

 

Maybe it's because I am extremely passionate, be it positive or negative for what I believe in. And I believe in this game. And its potential to be so much more. The framework is amazing. I just wish the ones in charge could see that but I suspect the hoopla around A17 has soured the love for producing content and I understand that part. Still does not make it right to say what was said. Its something I would say but I'm not at the top of a gaming company. Especially in today's anti game dev climate.

 

But back to the original point I am wondering where you are getting this opinion that modders are trying to be above all others? Guppy? Stallion? Khaine? Telric? Sphere? Xyth? Tin? Myself? When have any of us ever made a post trying to get ourselves over at the expense of having a discussion or an opinion?

[Guppycur]

I don't think I should be listened to at all. I was once called a forum celebrity by a friend (stompy) and it felt weird.

 

I'm just a player, with no more stake in the the game than a first poster.

[sillls]

One thing that I would love to see is the hit points added to each block that you can make.

 

I mean you can already see how much material and time you need to make it. But you don't know how strong it is until you make it, place it and damage it.

[frinetik]

Its not that, its being realistic about the demographic audience. Most people have better things to do then play one game for thousands of hours.

 

Most AAA games have about 6-10 hours of play, so aiming for 20-30 with hobby potential is still a very admirable design goal. The fact people play it 5000 hours or more is just bonus. I'm happy if I buy a game I play for more than 2 hours. If I can get 20-30 hours out of a game I'm super happy with it. We do want to create games that can become a hobby, but we can't expect people to play for thousands of hours and people who have played it for thousands of hours can't expect us to keep making it fun for them.

 

Then your on a slippery slope of adding late game crap 2% of players see. Its better to have less content that is super engaging for 20 hours than a ton of content that is meh or blocked.

 

Like I have to wonder how many players actually legit got tek gear in Ark on vanilla servers lol. What a waste of time making all those models and code for that stuff nobody ever got to use it unless they cheated.

 

I think you'd best write a story then, because you just described an action-adventure and an RPG, respectively, not a storyless open-ended sandbox.

[frinetik]

Why are you bothering with an RWG and replayability at all then? I don't think this decision is thought-out from the perspective of the game as envisioned and written. I've been playing real-time strategy game Factorio for over a hundred hours and haven't gotten halfway to the sandbox ultimate goal. Is Civilization written to be played 20-30hrs? Different kinds of games.

[PurgatoryWolf]

MADMOLE stated before they "watched some servers" and after some time, like 30 days or some such, the players had barely explored any of the map. This has not been the case for ours, and I would like to share the maps to 2 of our servers. These are fresh maps from 17.2 release, so they are like a week old.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]27949[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]27950[/ATTACH]

 

these maps are "8k" maps. meaning it's 4000 blocks from 0,0 in any direction. However, the invisible radzone is only at about 3800. Essentially these maps are pretty tiny, especially when you have 15-30 people on a night like we do.

 

But, I know I know, it's only meant for 8 people or less, but the game is way more fun with more people. If we make a larger map, it takes so long for people to connect that most will time out and can never connect at all, not to mention it takes hours to render it for creation.

 

I just wanted to show you that a server populated with lots of people, is going to have the map uncovered very quickly.

 

For our community, we are anxiously awaiting the RWG patch, and optimizations, and we pray that the devs will consider better MP support for more than 8 people. This game is amazing with a large community.

 

We look forward to a18, and are excited to see what the game has to bring.

 

Its not that, its being realistic about the demographic audience. Most people have better things to do then play one game for thousands of hours.

 

Most AAA games have about 6-10 hours of play, so aiming for 20-30 with hobby potential is still a very admirable design goal. The fact people play it 5000 hours or more is just bonus. I'm happy if I buy a game I play for more than 2 hours. If I can get 20-30 hours out of a game I'm super happy with it. We do want to create games that can become a hobby, but we can't expect people to play for thousands of hours and people who have played it for thousands of hours can't expect us to keep making it fun for them.

 

Then your on a slippery slope of adding late game crap 2% of players see. Its better to have less content that is super engaging for 20 hours than a ton of content that is meh or blocked.

 

Like I have to wonder how many players actually legit got tek gear in Ark on vanilla servers lol. What a waste of time making all those models and code for that stuff nobody ever got to use it unless they cheated.

 

I'm not sure you're fully aware of your audience sometimes. I know our servers don't make up a large chunk, but we have about 500-2000 people playing per release over its lifetime. If you think this number is too large, let me put this into perspective, since 17.2 launched, Jericho has had 191 players connect. Necro has had 91 players connect. And this is only since the release of 17.2 stable!

 

It would likely be even higher, but our servers are set to 5/6 difficulty.

 

Our a16 servers lasted for well over 3000 in-game days, and the majority of our players have over 1000 hours in game.

 

If you play alone or in a small group, then yes, the game gets boring quickly, especially if there is zero story to work with. But when you have servers with 10-30 people on at any given time the game takes on a new life. We have communities, player trading, commerce, events. We use BARC to clean and refresh areas of the map not occupied by players to help keep loot flowing.

 

Some of the biggest complaints from our people are these;

 

1: Maps are too small, we need to be able to load larger maps that wont take hours to render, and wont disconnect people for timeout when they try to connect.

 

2: Zombie spawns are way out of wack. I understand that some houses are meant to be too hard for players at a low level, but when EVERY house you got into has 10 or more zombies inside, it's overwhelming. Not to mention having ferals and rads showing up very early. (Spawning should work like the bloodmoon spawning does, what spawns when you step into an area, should be determined on the Gamestage of the players triggering the spawns. If more than one player is causing the trigger, then it should be an average of their gamestages.)

 

---

 

Also, personally from me and my fellow admins, please allow the use of IMPORT and Dynamic Prefab options (the K menu), in MP games!

[stasis78]

Mods are already doing more than the base game for content. They will continue to delivery more content.

 

Why does it matter if there isn't some stupid ♥♥♥♥ing apache axe "god weapon" in the vanilla game when you can get a chain gun with Firearms?

 

Jayick just got done adding more guns and has almost 40. Fine, pimps add 6 more guns before Gold. Big deal. People want the game to work, not more content. There is content everywhere.

 

I somehow doubt that Joel or any of the team would consider adding Rosemary or Tomatillos to the game, yet these exist in mods.

 

Please, just make stuff work and add steam workshop.

[Ouch Quit It]

Yeh, maybe players that look up to that modders are sensitive to the "look at me!" attitude of some of that modders lately? Dunno...

 

Cheers

 

I am proud to call several of the modders out there....friends, acquaintances, whatever....NEVER have i felt an ounce of "cockiness" or "Im better than you", on their part!! They all have been, most forthcoming with helping, explaining and adding content to this game and modding in general. I hope they continue what they are doing ....they could be selfish and keep their mods to a small circle of people, like all the other modders. Guppy for example has gathered many of the modders to work together. His discord channel is more active than these forums have been lately. All their work had to be redone with the A17 release. They could of simply said screw it, but they havent and have continued working. I have never felt or seen any of what you are talking about.

 

Ouch

[stasis78]

I am proud to call several of the modders out there....friends, acquaintances, whatever....NEVER have i felt an ounce of "cockiness" or "Im better than you", on their part!! They all have been, most forthcoming with helping, explaining and adding content to this game and modding in general. I hope they continue what they are doing ....they could be selfish and keep their mods to a small circle of people, like all the other modders. Guppy for example has gathered many of the modders to work together. His discord channel is more active than these forums have been lately. All their work had to be redone with the A17 release. They could of simply said screw it, but they havent and have continued working. I have never felt or seen any of what you are talking about.

 

Ouch

 

Yeah I don't see how adding more content to the game and sharing it for others makes you a jerk. Guess we shouldn't ever mention mods on the main thread for fear of being elitist.

[Warsaken]

My general rule of thumb is pretty simple (I learnt this YEARS ago): for every $1 (USD) I spend on a game, I expect to get one hour of play time. I was gifted this game many years ago when it was about $15. Last time I checked I had over 5,000 hours into this game and that's just time Steam actually recorded... i'd say I got my money's worth and then some.

 

Point being: if a game is designed well enough, replayability will suffice for a lot of people (myself included) despite how much content exists. I remember in the beginning it was said that the devs want to establish the foundation and let modders keep the content flowing past the game being 'gold'. I don't see any of that as a problem!

[Jackelmyer]

Mods are already doing more than the base game for content. They will continue to delivery more content.

 

Why does it matter if there isn't some stupid ♥♥♥♥ing apache axe "god weapon" in the vanilla game when you can get a chain gun with Firearms?

 

Jayick just got done adding more guns and has almost 40. Fine, pimps add 6 more guns before Gold. Big deal. People want the game to work, not more content. There is content everywhere.

 

I somehow doubt that Joel or any of the team would consider adding Rosemary or Tomatillos to the game, yet these exist in mods.

 

Please, just make stuff work and add steam workshop.

 

Don't agree with this. Add the content. Make the base game solid.

 

The issue I have with mods and why I always play vanilla is because of modders them self.

 

* Modders don't HAVE to support anything. Set it and forget it. It's not how all modders work. But it's entirely common.

* A vast majority of mods get created once by a player and might see a year of updates. Once they lose interest in the game, the mod typically dies. If that added features that make or break the game for me, the game... Is broke.

* Mod code is rarely handed off when a modder leaves a project. In some cases, yes, it is handed off. But anyone playing Wow can probably count on one or two hands the mods that have lasted the length of the game, Recount and DBMz for example. But if you look at the total count of mods for WoW, the vast majority are out of date and non-functional.

 

 

For a modder to want to rush to Gold, I get it. The game keeps changing. Every release makes something or many things go sideways. And it's a lot of work. That's on you though. You all chose to run with an Early Access game to build mods against. And kudos to ya! But to say stop adding content and go gold... Uh. No.

 

Solid game first. Mods... Second. That's how it should work.

[Demonoid74]

In the words of the immortal scholar and upstanding citizen...

[stasis78]

Don't agree with this. Add the content. Make the base game solid.

 

The issue I have with mods and why I always play vanilla is because of modders them self.

 

* Modders don't HAVE to support anything. Set it and forget it. It's not how all modders work. But it's entirely common.

* A vast majority of mods get created once by a player and might see a year of updates. Once they lose interest in the game, the mod typically dies. If that added features that make or break the game for me, the game... Is broke.

* Mod code is rarely handed off when a modder leaves a project. In some cases, yes, it is handed off. But anyone playing Wow can probably count on one or two hands the mods that have lasted the length of the game, Recount and DBMz for example. But if you look at the total count of mods for WoW, the vast majority are out of date and non-functional.

 

 

For a modder to want to rush to Gold, I get it. The game keeps changing. Every release makes something or many things go sideways. And it's a lot of work. That's on you though. You all chose to run with an Early Access game to build mods against. And kudos to ya! But to say stop adding content and go gold... Uh. No.

 

Solid game first. Mods... Second. That's how it should work.

 

You play, or have played, with mods that are just toys. Why do you want a bunch of content from the developers when the game doesn’t even work?

 

Also things have basically stopped changing and probably will. There are maybe some more changes to food and water but those are easy to change now that they are overly complicated. It can’t get much harder than it is right now.

[sillls]

In the words of the immortal scholar and upstanding citizen...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]27952[/ATTACH]

 

 

In the words of another immortal scholar: Peace is that breaf period of time in which everybody stops to reload.

 

Sad but true.

[JaxTeller718]

Don't agree with this. Add the content. Make the base game solid.

 

The issue I have with mods and why I always play vanilla is because of modders them self.

 

* Modders don't HAVE to support anything. Set it and forget it. It's not how all modders work. But it's entirely common.

* A vast majority of mods get created once by a player and might see a year of updates. Once they lose interest in the game, the mod typically dies. If that added features that make or break the game for me, the game... Is broke.

* Mod code is rarely handed off when a modder leaves a project. In some cases, yes, it is handed off. But anyone playing Wow can probably count on one or two hands the mods that have lasted the length of the game, Recount and DBMz for example. But if you look at the total count of mods for WoW, the vast majority are out of date and non-functional.

 

 

For a modder to want to rush to Gold, I get it. The game keeps changing. Every release makes something or many things go sideways. And it's a lot of work. That's on you though. You all chose to run with an Early Access game to build mods against. And kudos to ya! But to say stop adding content and go gold... Uh. No.

 

Solid game first. Mods... Second. That's how it should work.

 

Some modders are like this yes, it's in every game. But there are a core few who spend every single day making sure everything works. Now i WILL toot my own horn here. I am 100 percent invested in my mod, from the moment the sun rises to the second it sets. I'm in my Discord (which has OVER 2300 members btw) developing, fixing and testing. I am lucky enough to be able to make my own hours after years of failing hard at my business, but finally planting myself affords me the time to ensure I fix any errors when they happen. My team is always working on new concepts and ideas, and with every single experimental we update our mod.

 

Currently we are on 17.1 ONLY because 17.2 isn't just an update for us we are adding and reworking a LOT of content to make it the best it can be. Sure there are lazy modders out there and some are only in it for self glory but I can assure you the last thing I want is some cheerleading party. I wish to be known as a modder who works hard and is reliable to not leave people hanging. Ravenhearst is going nowhere, 5 years from now unless I'm in my grave I will be here updating and adding, AND i have 2 additional ideas for Overhauls unlike any seen before but those are waiting for a stabler release.

 

What I am trying to say is not to paint every modder the same for the actions of a few. The cream rises, the braggers eventually get bored. Stick with the names you see on a consistent basis putting out quality content. That list is going to get much bigger in the future.

 

That is the last time I plan to discuss Ravenhearst in this thread. I am here like all of you, a fan of the base game first. I wish to see THAT grow as much as possible before i worry about what my mod can or can not add or do. Vanilla is what most will play so I wish for Vanilla to be the best. Everything else is secondary.

[Ouch Quit It]

Agreed bud...100%

[stasis78]

Some modders are like this yes, it's in every game. But there are a core few who spend every single day making sure everything works. Now i WILL toot my own horn here. I am 100 percent invested in my mod, from the moment the sun rises to the second it sets. I'm in my Discord (which has OVER 2300 members btw) developing, fixing and testing. I am lucky enough to be able to make my own hours after years of failing hard at my business, but finally planting myself affords me the time to ensure I fix any errors when they happen. My team is always working on new concepts and ideas, and with every single experimental we update our mod.

 

Currently we are on 17.1 ONLY because 17.2 isn't just an update for us we are adding and reworking a LOT of content to make it the best it can be. Sure there are lazy modders out there and some are only in it for self glory but I can assure you the last thing I want is some cheerleading party. I wish to be known as a modder who works hard and is reliable to not leave people hanging. Ravenhearst is going nowhere, 5 years from now unless I'm in my grave I will be here updating and adding, AND i have 2 additional ideas for Overhauls unlike any seen before but those are waiting for a stabler release.

 

What I am trying to say is not to paint every modder the same for the actions of a few. The cream rises, the braggers eventually get bored. Stick with the names you see on a consistent basis putting out quality content. That list is going to get much bigger in the future.

 

That is the last time I plan to discuss Ravenhearst in this thread. I am here like all of you, a fan of the base game first. I wish to see THAT grow as much as possible before i worry about what my mod can or can not add or do. Vanilla is what most will play so I wish for Vanilla to be the best. Everything else is secondary.

 

You are a player first Jax. Don’t forget that

[stasis78]

In the words of the immortal scholar and upstanding citizen...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]27952[/ATTACH]

 

Not until all the modders leave the room.

 

Apparently it's not

A) ok to ask for official information about mod support (still never got any answer on this)

B) ok to ask anything related to mods outside the mod forum

C) ok to be a modder in general unless you are in the inner circle

[Guppycur]

Golden circle. Get it right.

[Jackelmyer]

Golden circle. Get it right.

 

Gross. >.<

 

 

 

:-p

[Jackelmyer]

Jax I hear what you're saying. And there are very very few people who mod with such commitment.

 

And I've watched game play of your work. It looks pretty cool and I have been curious to try it. Only thing really holding me back there is at the end of a long work day, spending time with the family, getting myself settled for the night, just want to click

 

7 Days To Die

 

Know it's been updated.

 

And play.

 

I may try an overhaul at some point. Dunno. But I'm 1500 hours in... of VANILLA. Several hundred hours of tinkering with stuff, figuring out some very light modding in A16. Some prefab stuff. But 1500 hours of Vanilla. And that doesn't include my console time.

 

All the talk of people who play past 30, 60, or 100 hours of the game go to mods, isn't true for everyone.

 

A ton of people, most of my kind of group, don't ever bother with the forums.

 

Click the game. Know it's updated. Play.

 

Now people can judge that to their hearts content. But I want to see Vanilla solid. And though I understand modders will just be like, "Doesn't exist? Does now!". But I think you guys forget how much of Vanilla you built from and depend on.

 

Think of the Vanilla experience. You learned how the game worked at it's most basic level. Got a feel for the balance between various blocks. Got a feel of the balance between the weapons, tools, food.

 

I simply can't imagine there's anything you guys make today that isn't in some way compared and built off of concepts from Vanilla. Is this block too durable? How's it pair to wood, metal, concrete? Is this food too beneficial or too weak? Compared to bacon and eggs...

 

The more base content that exists, the more you guys have to work with going forward. TFP wants some cool new way of doing something and you guys piggy back off it. Or use a piece of it.

 

To just "go gold..."... When TFP is still adding content. Man... That hurts not just vanilla, but modders too.

 

Yes. Absolutely. Some modders go way above and beyond. But the vast majority, don't. And even those that do go above and beyond. They're flavor may simply not be mine.

 

Best mod I ever used was HealBot for World of Warcraft. Had a slew of options and ways a person could use it.

 

Minecraft, one of the biggest games ever, had huge focus on how configurable the game was just from the launcher.

 

I've literally watched a business, worked for them, and watched them crumble because they focused on how things "should be" and failed to focus on reality.

 

And reality is. There's no one right way in building and presenting any software. Unless you're Google. And your app is a text box... And a button. That's it. That goes for business and games.

 

Ultimately mods opened up real customization over the years in gaming. But unfortunately mods miss a huge base of players.

 

Those with little extra time to fiddle with things.

Those too lazy to fiddle with things.

Those too ignorant (literal meaning, not as an offense)

 

Which is why I advocate for more and more options, in game setup, as to how the game is played.

 

And why I really would like to see Vanilla stick in Alpha till it's genuinely ready.

[Roland]

But I'm 1500 hours in... of VANILLA. .

 

I think this is an important point for those who are swooning over Madmole's comment of 20 - 30 hrs. The game they will be delivering is essentially the same game we have now with optimizations, bugs fixed, and balancing tuned in along with the rest of the promised content listed on the kickstarter goal list not yet added to the game. This is the 20 - 30 hr game that Jackelmyer and others have played for 1500 hrs.

 

So it isn't at all that Madmole and company plan to turn the current game into something that no one will want to play for more than 20 - 30 hrs. It is simply that if you have played out the current game to the tune of thousands of hours you have pretty much experienced it all at this point and TFP are not going to ignore their roadmap to tack on additional content geared to keep you interested in the vanilla game. Let's be honest. If they DID add more complexity to electricity or endgame objectives and tasks most of you would devour and play that out within a few weeks and then be clamoring for more.

 

The "20 - 30 hour game" that TFP will be putting out will still be played for 1000's of hours by many new and old gamers because it will largely be the game we have now and for those who aren't completely disenfranchised by the progression system overhaul there is still plenty of fun to be had.

 

Mods are the only real answer for those who have completely played out the vanilla game whether that took them 20 hours, 200 hours, or even 1500 hours. A17 is my favorite version of the game so far but I know that eventually I will check out some of the other overhaul mods to see some of the changes to gameplay that they offer.

[stasis78]

Jax I hear what you're saying. And there are very very few people who mod with such commitment.

 

And I've watched game play of your work. It looks pretty cool and I have been curious to try it. Only thing really holding me back there is at the end of a long work day, spending time with the family, getting myself settled for the night, just want to click

 

7 Days To Die

 

Know it's been updated.

 

And play.

 

I may try an overhaul at some point. Dunno. But I'm 1500 hours in... of VANILLA. Several hundred hours of tinkering with stuff, figuring out some very light modding in A16. Some prefab stuff. But 1500 hours of Vanilla. And that doesn't include my console time.

 

All the talk of people who play past 30, 60, or 100 hours of the game go to mods, isn't true for everyone.

 

A ton of people, most of my kind of group, don't ever bother with the forums.

 

Click the game. Know it's updated. Play.

 

Now people can judge that to their hearts content. But I want to see Vanilla solid. And though I understand modders will just be like, "Doesn't exist? Does now!". But I think you guys forget how much of Vanilla you built from and depend on.

 

Think of the Vanilla experience. You learned how the game worked at it's most basic level. Got a feel for the balance between various blocks. Got a feel of the balance between the weapons, tools, food.

 

I simply can't imagine there's anything you guys make today that isn't in some way compared and built off of concepts from Vanilla. Is this block too durable? How's it pair to wood, metal, concrete? Is this food too beneficial or too weak? Compared to bacon and eggs...

 

The more base content that exists, the more you guys have to work with going forward. TFP wants some cool new way of doing something and you guys piggy back off it. Or use a piece of it.

 

To just "go gold..."... When TFP is still adding content. Man... That hurts not just vanilla, but modders too.

 

Yes. Absolutely. Some modders go way above and beyond. But the vast majority, don't. And even those that do go above and beyond. They're flavor may simply not be mine.

 

Best mod I ever used was HealBot for World of Warcraft. Had a slew of options and ways a person could use it.

 

Minecraft, one of the biggest games ever, had huge focus on how configurable the game was just from the launcher.

 

I've literally watched a business, worked for them, and watched them crumble because they focused on how things "should be" and failed to focus on reality.

 

And reality is. There's no one right way in building and presenting any software. Unless you're Google. And your app is a text box... And a button. That's it. That goes for business and games.

 

Ultimately mods opened up real customization over the years in gaming. But unfortunately mods miss a huge base of players.

 

Those with little extra time to fiddle with things.

Those too lazy to fiddle with things.

Those too ignorant (literal meaning, not as an offense)

 

Which is why I advocate for more and more options, in game setup, as to how the game is played.

 

And why I really would like to see Vanilla stick in Alpha till it's genuinely ready.

 

Changing a few items to have higher stack values and posting a modlet for it does not make someone a modder. I’m sorry but there is a big difference between script kiddies and overhauls and expansions.

[Jackelmyer]

Changing a few items to have higher stack values and posting a modlet for it does not make someone a modder. I’m sorry but there is a big difference between script kiddies and overhauls and expansions.

 

To you yes.

To me, actually yes. And I'm largely a script kiddie.

 

To the average Joe, you and I both have magical powers that cannot be comprehended.

 

I swear. Every single software developer should spend at least a year working on a general help desk.

 

Your defensiveness is understandable.

 

Making a point of it, is ignorant.

 

Or maybe to be fair... Hot headed.