Suggestion for improving A17 skill/perk system

[ivailogeimara]

I see a lot of people are complaining about the new level gated skill system and I kind of agree to some extend.

I like most of the perks. What I have problem is the main ones that are level gated (Strength, Agility, Fortitude, Perception, Intellect). I think instead of level gating them they shouldn't be leveled by spending points on them but rather by doing things related to them (and it should not allow spending points on them at all). Every other perk/skill will be leveled the same way as they are leveled now (by spending points on them acquired by general leveling)

 

For example:

Strength should be leveled by chopping trees, mining, fighting zombies (with melee weapons), destroying stuff. Each thing should give different amount of strength_XP (preferably specified in a XML file for modding purposes). For example punching grass, trees, etc. should give little to no strength_XP; meleeing zombies with melee weapons should give less strength_XP than chopping trees/mining with the appropriate tool; using better tools/weapons (better mods) should give more strength_XP. Strength_XP should be awarded on a hit and not on a complete action (killing zombie, fully chopping out a tree).

Agility should be leveled by walking, running (more agility), jumping (even more, but of course it drains a lot stamina), climbing ladders. Each action should give different amount of agility.

Fortitude. Now this is kinda hard. Looking at the skills in that tree maybe it should be leveled by multiple things. Taking damage by zombies (not really sure about that), hunting and skinning animals, harvesting crops (it's different from chopping trees / punching grass).

The perception tree is all over the place. The first 3 perks shouldn't be there at all (the gun modding system should take care of fire rate / reload speed). Looking at the rest of the Marksmanship perks I think perception_XP should be leveled by using guns. Looting perks should be in a different tree altogether IMO.

Intellect is the tricky part. This should be leveled by crafting items and disassembling stuff. BUT that way we're getting into the spawn crafting problem. My proposed solution for this is "Craft Timers". When you craft an item a timer should start. If the timer is running crafting the same item will not award you intellect_XP. There should also be system in place that detects if you craft a small amount of different items in a row (like 1-5 instances different items) because I could craft different wood items and "cheat" the craft timers. Once I go over all the wood items the timer may have expired. So if you craft small amounts of different items it should take your intellect_XP from the last few crafted items and apply you de-buff where you don't get intellect_XP from any crafting for certain amount of time (like 30min IRL). It would also be nice if these "craft timers" are exposed in a XML file (recipes.xml for each recipe). Eventually some recepes should stop giving intellect_XP at all (for example crafting stone tools with 4/10 intellect (the amount needed for forge).

I think that would be far better and interesting system than some generic level gating.

Because at the moment if you want to craft better items the answer is "farm zombies". If you want to be stronger - "farm zombies". If you want to be better farmer (crops) - (you guessed it) "farm zombies". It's not really an interesting system. And I know that doing other things gives you XP too but farming zombies is the best way to level. It just doesn't make sense why farming zombies allows you to craft better items. And even if only level by crafting stuff and building that should not make me stronger (and thus killing zombies easier). That's really a bland and generic system. My system will force you to do different things if you want to be good at everything. Also if you play multiplayer it allows for distribution of the workforce. One person can take care of building/gathering resources/farming(planting food), other person can go looting towns, fighting more zombies obviously.And you would need each other for the different skills everyone have. Because now if you want to mainly gather resources and preparing the base for the next horde you don't have enough XP to level crafting skills. The people that go looting towns and killing zombies have way more levels and basically are forced to take every skill because they can't wait for people that take care of resource gathering/building/crafting to level up.

Don't forget 7 Days to Die is not just a RPG game that happens to have survival elements and zombies, it's zombie SURVIVAL RPG game. Some systems that work well in other RPG games don't necessarily work that well here. Farming mobs for leveling may work for a lot of other RPG games but I don't think it works that well for 7 Days to Die.

 

Some people are completely against the new skill system while others are completely for it.

Overall I think the current skill system is a step in the right direction but it needs a little tweaking. I think TFP along the way of making A17 forgot that 7 Days to Die is not just standard RPG game and were so focused of remaking the old skill system that they didn't thought of some of the good elements of it.

 

I don't think the old system was better. In fact I like the new system way more. I just think that perks should be gated behind generic level and instead be gated behind your actions

 

Edit: In post #4 I clarify more some things a bit

[amazombie]

I agree! Thats a great idea to put something in place we can work on unlocking certain areas.

+1

[GARGEAN]

Spending points is fine, but they indeed should be unlocked not by level, but by their personal progress. Like with old mining> Miner-69er system. Dam... SO many changes I am asking about...

[ivailogeimara]

Spending points is fine, but they indeed should be unlocked not by level, but by their personal progress. Like with old mining> Miner-69er system. Dam... SO many changes I am asking about...

 

I am OK with spending points. I'm only not OK with spending points (which are acquired by killing zombies) on the main skills (that are required for every perk from that tree).

My idea is that main skills/perks will not be locked behind player level and they will level by themselves. Every skill/perk bellow that is has requirement like "Strength 4" will remain the same. It'll just mean that you'll have to have Strength 4 (Killed a lot of Z's with melee, mined a lot, chopped a lot of trees, etc.) not that you have to be General Level 40.

With the current system I can just kill 10000 zombies and learn to craft vehicles. Which sounds wrong, With my system you'll have to craft things, disassemble stuff to level your Intellect which allow you to put points into Grease Monkey. For example Crafting motorcycle requires Intellect 7. That will still be the case. It's just that you won't be able to level your Intellect by killing Z's or mining but with crafting and disassembling stuff.

In the end you'll still get Points to spend by general leveling up. And you'll spend that points on the perks/skill. But the requirement of the skills will not be player level (now Intellect 7 = Player Level 50) but actually Intellect 7 (which will mean you've done a lot of intellecty things.

[soblacky]

I feel with you and you are so right with all your words here!

I think it should be a mix of the old version and the new one just right. I thought it was good that if you walked a lot you lvl up or if you get a lot of trees you would have leveled up. I play and build all time my house or basis first but now i must FAST kill zombies first and this i dont like it and dmg MY OWN Gameplay all the time in all survival games. I have fun to build a house or a basis for my team but here now with this system i cant lvl up fast and rly good and the first 7 day or omg the next 14 days to come the Zombie horde was for me ryl to hard to survive and they all zombies rly to hard. you cant be so fast with your first building or basis with this leveling system!

[bloom_meister]

I see a lot of people are complaining about the new level gated skill system and I kind of agree to some extend.

I like most of the perks. What I have problem is the main ones that are level gated (Strength, Agility, Fortitude, Perception, Intellect). I think instead of level gating them they shouldn't be leveled by spending points on them but rather by doing things related to them (and it should not allow spending points on them at all). Every other perk/skill will be leveled the same way as they are leveled now (by spending points on them acquired by general leveling)

 

For example:

Strength should be leveled by chopping trees, mining, fighting zombies (with melee weapons), destroying stuff. Each thing should give different amount of strength_XP (preferably specified in a XML file for modding purposes). For example punching grass, trees, etc. should give little to no strength_XP; meleeing zombies with melee weapons should give less strength_XP than chopping trees/mining with the appropriate tool; using better tools/weapons (better mods) should give more strength_XP. Strength_XP should be awarded on a hit and not on a complete action (killing zombie, fully chopping out a tree).

Agility should be leveled by walking, running (more agility), jumping (even more, but of course it drains a lot stamina), climbing ladders. Each action should give different amount of agility.

Fortitude. Now this is kinda hard. Looking at the skills in that tree maybe it should be leveled by multiple things. Taking damage by zombies (not really sure about that), hunting and skinning animals, harvesting crops (it's different from chopping trees / punching grass).

The perception tree is all over the place. The first 3 perks shouldn't be there at all (the gun modding system should take care of fire rate / reload speed). Looking at the rest of the Marksmanship perks I think perception_XP should be leveled by using guns. Looting perks should be in a different tree altogether IMO.

Intellect is the tricky part. This should be leveled by crafting items and disassembling stuff. BUT that way we're getting into the spawn crafting problem. My proposed solution for this is "Craft Timers". When you craft an item a timer should start. If the timer is running crafting the same item will not award you intellect_XP. There should also be system in place that detects if you craft a small amount of different items in a row (like 1-5 instances different items) because I could craft different wood items and "cheat" the craft timers. Once I go over all the wood items the timer may have expired. So if you craft small amounts of different items it should take your intellect_XP from the last few crafted items and apply you de-buff where you don't get intellect_XP from any crafting for certain amount of time (like 30min IRL). It would also be nice if these "craft timers" are exposed in a XML file (recipes.xml for each recipe). Eventually some recepes should stop giving intellect_XP at all (for example crafting stone tools with 4/10 intellect (the amount needed for forge).

I think that would be far better and interesting system than some generic level gating.

Because at the moment if you want to craft better items the answer is "farm zombies". If you want to be stronger - "farm zombies". If you want to be better farmer (crops) - (you guessed it) "farm zombies". It's not really an interesting system. And I know that doing other things gives you XP too but farming zombies is the best way to level. It just doesn't make sense why farming zombies allows you to craft better items. And even if only level by crafting stuff and building that should not make me stronger (and thus killing zombies easier). That's really a bland and generic system. My system will force you to do different things if you want to be good at everything. Also if you play multiplayer it allows for distribution of the workforce. One person can take care of building/gathering resources/farming(planting food), other person can go looting towns, fighting more zombies obviously.And you would need each other for the different skills everyone have. Because now if you want to mainly gather resources and preparing the base for the next horde you don't have enough XP to level crafting skills. The people that go looting towns and killing zombies have way more levels and basically are forced to take every skill because they can't wait for people that take care of resource gathering/building/crafting to level up.

Don't forget 7 Days to Die is not just a RPG game that happens to have survival elements and zombies, it's zombie SURVIVAL RPG game. Some systems that work well in other RPG games don't necessarily work that well here. Farming mobs for leveling may work for a lot of other RPG games but I don't think it works that well for 7 Days to Die.

 

Some people are completely against the new skill system while others are completely for it.

Overall I think the current skill system is a step in the right direction but it needs a little tweaking. I think TFP along the way of making A17 forgot that 7 Days to Die is not just standard RPG game and were so focused of remaking the old skill system that they didn't thought of some of the good elements of it.

 

I don't think the old system was better. In fact I like the new system way more. I just think that perks should be gated behind generic level and instead be gated behind your actions

 

Edit: In post #4 I clarify more some things a bit

 

You cant have it because TFP dont believe you can get better at something by, you know, doing it.............................................

 

I know thats hard to get your head around because its impossibly dumb but hey, its their game right!..right?

[Dimpy]

From what I have seen(not playing till stable) the current level gates work well as a maximum level that you'd have to be in order to to unlock an attribute level. However, I don't see anything wrong with reducing those level requirements if the player does actions related to that group. I think that players should still be required to spend points to buy attribute levels, but this doesn't change that.

[sadpickle]

I like the OP's suggestion. Perks in general is just weak, and he level gating makes it really pointless. There is no specialization when you are waiting on the level gate to unlock and spending extra points on w/e you can spend them on at that time.

 

FO4 was a such boring-ass RPG, I don't understand why TFP want to emulate a clearly lackluster game.

[Hyperbolt]

I strongly agree on this, ive covered this matter in an own thread as well.

Many perks should be built on progressive skills, not level gatings.

 

Indeed this possible scenario doesnt make sense:

”Ive killed zombies all day, now i can finally learn how to craft a bicycle!”

 

Learning skills/perks should be more like:

”If you do something alot, you get better at that thing.”

[iejen]

FO4 was a such boring-ass RPG, I don't understand why TFP want to emulate a clearly lackluster game.

 

I think this is just a personal opinion.

IMO FO4 is one of the best games I played the past year.

 

1. RDR2

2. Spiderman

3. FO4

4. FC3

5. GTAV

[Khulkhuum]

Full support from my end! Pretty sure if TFP does not change this, there will be mods for that.

 

As much as i am content with the new perk system, it could be way better. It is an improvement from A16 for sure, but like 95% of things ever created can be improved.

[secateurs]

I know that "improving a skill by doing a skill related task" makes more coherent sense but it doesn't make for good gameplay, it's a recipe for encouraging people to plant and harvest thousands of trees or whatever. It's better to have a system that doesn't quite make sense (points on level up) than to force gameplay which is totally unnatural and unfun.

 

 

Granting XP for all significant actions and letting the player put points toward shaping the build they want is the best way to get players to play the game instead of gaming the system.

[Spider]

I agree with the OP completely. If TFP don't lose their Fallout fascination it will be the death of this game. If they try and compete with Fallout they lose in every possible feature comparison a person could make. They should stick to what they are good at and is unique to them instead of trying to make a knockoff copy of Fallout.

[Viktoriusiii]

Problem is:

They dislike the learning by doing approach.

 

 

One other way:

Slow down levelling, remove the level-gates and replace them with attribute-gates.

So if someone wants to go 10str 0 everything else to unlock packmule as quickly as he can, he is still slow, cant loot, shoot, trade, cook, craft, mine and build.

 

I see no reason for level-gating in the current skilltree. Reduce zombie xp and keep balancing and its not a terrible system anymore.

[Hyperbolt]

I guess that would be the simplest solution!

And if they want to slow the progress a little, add more levels in the attributes, to like 20 or 25? If there were 25 points in each attribute, the earliest tou could max out a perk might be around lv30... which seems early, but remember, your character wont be good at anything else but that specific perk.

 

So sure, if the pimps removed the level-gatings and made a bit of rebalancing, this could work nicely as well!

[Tristam]

imo, add a generic perk tree. Move all non-combative perks to it and make it so that it doesn't have a level gate. Or, remove the level gate of all non-combat skills right where they are. In this way, you don't HAVE to be Intellect based in order to build vehicles, or Strength based to carry more, etc.

[Krougal]

I know that "improving a skill by doing a skill related task" makes more coherent sense but it doesn't make for good gameplay, it's a recipe for encouraging people to plant and harvest thousands of trees or whatever. It's better to have a system that doesn't quite make sense (points on level up) than to force gameplay which is totally unnatural and unfun.

 

 

Granting XP for all significant actions and letting the player put points toward shaping the build they want is the best way to get players to play the game instead of gaming the system.

 

This!

Learning by doing is great in theory and all but grinding out 1000s of stone axes or purposely injuring yourself so you can use bandages to level a skill is not fun gameplay. While I'm still not a general fan of the leveling/XP/skill mechanic good riddance to A16.

[Randomdude]

How about a perk that is called: Zombie Killer : Zombies killed give 50% more XP [Rank2 100%] [etc.]

 

another called - The Builder: Any builder action grants you 50% more XP

 

another - The Scavenger: Recieve XP by looting

 

I'm just spitballing here but it would let you get XP as YOU want and play as YOU like without touching the skill tree that much. (Specializations)

[ivailogeimara]

I know that "improving a skill by doing a skill related task" makes more coherent sense but it doesn't make for good gameplay, it's a recipe for encouraging people to plant and harvest thousands of trees or whatever. It's better to have a system that doesn't quite make sense (points on level up) than to force gameplay which is totally unnatural and unfun.

 

 

Granting XP for all significant actions and letting the player put points toward shaping the build they want is the best way to get players to play the game instead of gaming the system.

 

At the moment it's just farming zombies. If they do something else to give more XP you'll do that over and over again. Very fun gameplay. They should think of clever way to make grinding skills impractical.

[PoppaTot]

At the moment it's just farming zombies. If they do something else to give more XP you'll do that over and over again. Very fun gameplay. They should think of clever way to make grinding skills impractical.

 

100% I'm actually fine now with the level gating, fine with the perk trees ect....

 

Not fine with the: if you want to progress in this game, drop all playstyles and get used to only killing zombies direction it has taken.

 

Just balancing out the XP (not nerfing zombie XP) to increase mining/building to be equivalent to that of zombies.

 

Seems quite simple really.

[ivailogeimara]

This!

Learning by doing is great in theory and all but grinding out 1000s of stone axes or purposely injuring yourself so you can use bandages to level a skill is not fun gameplay. While I'm still not a general fan of the leveling/XP/skill mechanic good riddance to A16.

 

No one wants the A16 system!. But A17 system is not better either. It has a lot of improvements over A16 one but it's not great. Combination between both with some spamming restrictions will be the best of the both systems. I know it may be not that easy to make but that's why TFP are game developers.

[PoppaTot]

No one wants the A16 system!

 

That's a pretty bold and presumptuous statement. I liked the A16 system, and I would like the A17 system if they just balanced XP gain for other activities aside from constant zombie farming.

[ivailogeimara]

A16 system had a problem with spamming 1 action over and over to get better at something (like crafting 9999999 stone axes). This should be not possible. There should be restrictions and punishment for spamming 1 thing.

 

Also if you want to level Strength with my system you can chop trees, mine, fight zombies with melee weapons, break doors, break safes. That's a great variety of actions. You're not forced to spam 1 thing. If you want to spam 1 thing, go ahead. Ruin the game for yourself. Nobody is stopping you.

For the Agility just travel a lot. Explore. Going in a circle won't level your agility. It can be made to be leveled based on the distance you've traveled for the last minute (or any amount of time (idk what would be the best from balance point)). If you stay at your base the whole day, well you won't have Agility. The people that explore will.

Perception will be split in 2 trees. One will be leveled by shooting guns (Eny gun!!!)

Fortitute also requires variety of different actions.

Intellect is the hardest tree but it's not impossible.

[ivailogeimara]

That's a pretty bold and presumptuous statement. I liked the A16 system, and I would like the A17 system if they just balanced XP gain for other activities aside from constant zombie farming.

 

It had a problem with having to spam 1 action to level skill, for every specific skill. And of course you could spent points to level it faster but it wasn't a great system. The biggest problem for me was that every single skill had to be spammed to level it (you didn't feel spamming some of them but that doen't change the point).

 

Using bladed weapons and blunt weapons is the same thing for me. It should make you better at meleeing. With A16 system it wasn't the same thing.

 

I see A16 system at the one end of the line and A17 system at the other. I want something in between.

[PoppaTot]

It had a problem with having to spam 1 action to level skill, for every specific skill. And of course you could spent points to level it faster but it wasn't a great system. The biggest problem for me was that every single skill had to be spammed to level it (you didn't feel spamming some of them but that doen't change the point).

 

Using bladed weapons and blunt weapons is the same thing for me. It should make you better at meleeing. With A16 system it wasn't the same thing.

 

I see A16 system at the one end of the line and A17 system at the other. I want something in between.

 

Totally get that, as stated previously I'm actually totally fine with the current perk system and level locks, just not that the only way to get XP is currently farming zombies until I'm bored.