An in depth discussion on zombie loot in alpha 17

[Roland]

As I assume you remember I am 100% against the removal of zombie loots. (Granted im not as active as I use to be but im a vet here)

 

It changes the game in a way I do not care for. But, i understand that there are forces that we do not see. I certainly hope this gets revisited if possible but I do appreciate that you are being honest about it being a necessary evil.

 

I cant blame you for trying to put a positive spin on it. After all saying that you did something you didn't want to but were forced to because of limitations and that you really don't like and continuing to point out how negative it is, well the result wont make anyone any happier. We can bitch and moan about things we don't like but you do need to be a bit more open minded and tactful.

 

So I will continue to dislike this change, i wont hold it against you for trying to show some positives.

 

(Edit I know YOU didnt do it, more stating at a type of representative of TFP)

 

Oi vey...

 

What did I do that I didn't want to but was forced to because of limitations?

What do I really not like but continue to point out how negative it is?

What am I being closed minded to?

I was accused of being a shill for the company by drinking koolaid and dishonestly spinning facts to hide an agenda that TFP has to dumb down the game (Is it for console Guppy?). I think my reply to that accusation was pretty darn tactful. Or are you referring to other times?

 

Am I not understanding you? Help me out because I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.

[cnconrad]

Oi vey...

 

What did I do that I didn't want to but was forced to because of limitations?

What do I really not like but continue to point out how negative it is?

What am I being closed minded to?

I was accused of being a shill for the company by drinking koolaid and dishonestly spinning facts to hide an agenda that TFP has to dumb down the game (Is it for console Guppy?). I think my reply to that accusation was pretty darn tactful. Or are you referring to other times?

 

Am I not understanding you? Help me out because I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.

 

 

It was poorly worded.

 

I was attempting to compliment you for admitting that it was not a ideal design change and it was done for technical reasons. You said that you didn't think it was a good idea at first but have gotten around to liking it.

 

I was merely saying its understandable that you are trying to point out the positive rather than joining the crap on the changes train. Trying to focus on the positives is not the same thing as being a shill.

 

Is that more clear? I may have put some double and even triple negatives in there so it may have been hard to follow.

 

All that being said, I still do not like the change and don't really see it being something I will ever like, there is something very satisfying to seeing the carnage of a whole blood moon horde outside your base as the sun rises.

[OzHawkeye]

Meh, premature ventilation.

 

That's what this all is.

 

Until we get to try it out, passing judgement on it, is just not warranted, and I say that as someone who enjoyed very much the sea of dead bodies lying at my feet on the dawn of an 8th day.

[Roland]

It was poorly worded.

 

I was attempting to compliment you for admitting that it was not a ideal design change and it was done for technical reasons. You said that you didn't think it was a good idea at first but have gotten around to liking it.

 

I was merely saying its understandable that you are trying to point out the positive rather than joining the crap on the changes train. Trying to focus on the positives is not the same thing as being a shill.

 

Is that more clear? I may have put some double and even triple negatives in there so it may have been hard to follow.

 

All that being said, I still do not like the change and don't really see it being something I will ever like, there is something very satisfying to seeing the carnage of a whole blood moon horde outside your base as the sun rises.

 

Gotcha. My mood probably didn’t help me understand either as I was probably looking to be attacked. Thanks for your words.

 

I know that some of you might never like the change and I’m sorry if my posts come across as saying you SHOULD like the change. That’s not my intent. I’m just sharing the positive that I found in it but each person’s mileage will vary.

 

It will certainly make for lots of forum discussion during the months following the A17 release. I’m keen to see how many end up hating it, how many end up liking it, and what can be done about it modding wise.

[Colin248]

Gotcha. My mood probably didn’t help me understand either as I was probably looking to be attacked. Thanks for your words.

 

I know that some of you might never like the change and I’m sorry if my posts come across as saying you SHOULD like the change. That’s not my intent. I’m just sharing the positive that I found in it but each person’s mileage will vary.

 

It will certainly make for lots of forum discussion during the months following the A17 release. I’m keen to see how many end up hating it, how many end up liking it, and what can be done about it modding wise.

 

thats my only question realy about all this. lets say the backlash is... fierce. how simple would it be to give them there drop tables back? not the gore blocks, im fine with that vanishing but just having them on there person. i duno if you can answer it but worth asking.

[bloom_meister]

Gotcha. My mood probably didn’t help me understand either as I was probably looking to be attacked. Thanks for your words.

 

I know that some of you might never like the change and I’m sorry if my posts come across as saying you SHOULD like the change. That’s not my intent. I’m just sharing the positive that I found in it but each person’s mileage will vary.

 

It will certainly make for lots of forum discussion during the months following the A17 release. I’m keen to see how many end up hating it, how many end up liking it, and what can be done about it modding wise.

 

We know you're basically pretty honest and try and tell it like it is Roland and appreciate that but as a 'spokesperson' (kinda) then occasionally youre gonna get run over by the hype train and turned into roadkill

[Rez090]

If zombie bodies are gonna instant despawn, how am I supposed to get my zombie flesh for fertilizer?

 

If zombies will not hardly drop any loot, what is my incentive to engage them in combat? I'm not gonna waste my arrows or bullets or club just for 1 zombie out of say 15 to drop loot.

 

And why are TFP trying to add zombie 'bosses'? Save bosses for when you finally decide to implement raiders, I'd rather have a boss that can actually fight me and makes the fight more engaging than some zombie that isn't unique who just gets a health bump and done.

[Jedo]

If zombie bodies are gonna instant despawn, how am I supposed to get my zombie flesh for fertilizer?

 

If zombies will not hardly drop any loot, what is my incentive to engage them in combat? I'm not gonna waste my arrows or bullets or club just for 1 zombie out of say 15 to drop loot.

 

And why are TFP trying to add zombie 'bosses'? Save bosses for when you finally decide to implement raiders, I'd rather have a boss that can actually fight me and makes the fight more engaging than some zombie that isn't unique who just gets a health bump and done.

 

1) That remains to be seen. It may be nerfed. It may come from a different source.

 

2) Your incentive is staying alive. Zombies are not loot caravans. (In a different vein, TFP might be using psychology. People will still do something even if there's only a low probability of success. See gambling.)

 

3) You already know that by "boss" TFP means "big bullet sponge"? Maybe that's a reasonable assumption, but it's an assumption nonetheless. Instead of worrying about it, you could wait to get your panties in a twist when you actually know.

[meganoth]

About this "only for performance sake": I remember Gazz posting a while ago that he wants to remove the sea of corpse blocks that makes the aftermath of later horde nights a boring grind fest (yes, I know some of you like that, I'm as astonished about your tastes as you are probably about mine). For me it was immediately in the top 5 of features I wanted from A17 (only topped by ai fixes and gyrocopter).

 

Now I don't think Gazz is the type of developer you can put in front of a spin campaign and I really think the idea has advantages (and disadvantages, sure). My guess is the idea was put in because of above and "zombies are danger not loot". But when they tested it they saw the performance difference and THAT convinced the other developers of the idea. So now performance is the reason they do it, but that doesn't mean the other reasons are moot or go away if the performance hit of gore blocks is resolved. Just my theory, no need to tell me I have no proof.

 

In my opinion, if gore blocks ever return, they better stack so that zombies can climb over walls with them. So at least they have some other uses apart from loot provider for horde night (where other methods are more elegant) and adrenaline fix for instant gratification junkies

[Guppycur]

Boss doesn't /have/ to mean bullet sponge... The goblin shamans in medieval mod were one hits, but damned if you wanted one near your base... Necromancers ... Don't even get me started.

 

And no, I'm not pitching the mod, I'm pointing out that giving bosses a purpose that would frack up your game is possible, making them bosses, without having to make them 10k hp.

 

Screamers were a step in the right direction in vanilla.

[Xtrakicking]

2) Your incentive is staying alive. Zombies are not loot caravans. (In a different vein, TFP might be using psychology. People will still do something even if there's only a low probability of success. See gambling.)

 

There's a very big problem with this argument, and it's the fact that staying alive isn't hard if there's nothing worth fighting for in the first place. If I see a horde of soldier zombies, why would I even engage them if I know I'm not getting anything out of it aside from wasting bullets? I can just walk away. Is that my reward? Knowing that I walked away and didn't get wacked? It's way better to risk your life in case you might find something useful, but now that's gone entirely.

[meganoth]

There's a very big problem with this argument, and it's the fact that staying alive isn't hard if there's nothing worth fighting for in the first place. If I see a horde of soldier zombies, why would I even engage them if I know I'm not getting anything out of it aside from wasting bullets? I can just walk away. Is that my reward? Knowing that I walked away and didn't get wacked? It's way better to risk your life in case you might find something useful, but now that's gone entirely.

 

That is correct for wandering zombies, spotting them early enough and evading them means you stay alive another day (Note this is how it should be, not how wandering hordes are in A16. Think of a wandering horde where every zombie walks or runs straight at you when they have noticed you).

 

And then there are the houses. The zombies in there are between you and the loot. Walk away and you get nothing. Kill them or sneak past them and you might not sleep hungry through the night.

[Jedo]

There's a very big problem with this argument, and it's the fact that staying alive isn't hard if there's nothing worth fighting for in the first place. If I see a horde of soldier zombies, why would I even engage them if I know I'm not getting anything out of it aside from wasting bullets? I can just walk away. Is that my reward? Knowing that I walked away and didn't get wacked? It's way better to risk your life in case you might find something useful, but now that's gone entirely.

 

First off, I don't see why engaging every zombie should be an essential part of this game.

 

Second, engaging that horde of soldier zombies is hardly life threatening, especially if you have a gun as you imply. It is more risky than not engaging, but not by much.

 

Third, where are you when you encounter this horde? If you are en route from one place to another, you might not engage them. If you are in the middle of a town trying to loot POIs, you might engage them so that they don't trap you in a building. If you are at your base, you might engage them so that they don't start wrecking the place or setup camp outside. I don't know the exact coding (or maybe it's coincidence), but I've noticed that not engaging a wandering horde means that their pathing times out and they become a crowd of zombies in an area. I don't want that hanging around. Those are some reasons to engage.

 

Finally, I don't think this is TFP's final iteration. I think they still have more work to do in implementing the "have to" engage aspect even though they've already minimized the "want to" engage aspect. People complained that the GPS hordes of A16 were annoying or immersion breaking, but I think something like that is a pretty good idea.

[Xtrakicking]

Snip for space

 

Snip for space

 

It's not about it being essential or not, it's about it being fun and immersive. There's no point in having different types of zombies with different types of health if none have any interesting loot worth fighting for. Previously, if you had low health or were infected, it was cool to go out looking for nurses in case they had medical equipment. It makes sense, they're nurses. Now that's not the case, and instead of having a dynamic system based on zombie types we have backpacks popping out of nowhere sometimes, not to mention the removal of the corpse harvesting for bones and meat.

 

What even is the point of going to the snow forest anymore? Lumberjacks are very tough, yet you won't ever have any chances of getting somewhat useful tools and resources from them from now on, so again, what's the point?

 

I'm not saying there isn't any incentive for killing zombies anymore, I'm saying that previously we had that incentive of not getting killed plus the possibility to risk your life for better loot and a bunch of other cool mechanics; but now all that's left from that is the incentive of not getting killed and nothing else. It's a clear downgrade that only seems to have the purpose of gaining a bit of performance improvement.

 

This is still just judgment based on what I currently know about the new features. I might end up liking it in the end, but considering the above, I'm skeptical.

[Jedo]

It's not about it being essential or not, it's about it being fun and immersive. There's no point in having different types of zombies with different types of health if none have any interesting loot worth fighting for. Previously, if you had low health or were infected, it was cool to go out looking for nurses in case they had medical equipment. It makes sense, they're nurses. Now that's not the case, and instead of having a dynamic system based on zombie types we have backpacks popping out of nowhere sometimes, not to mention the removal of the corpse harvesting for bones and meat.

 

I'm not saying there isn't any incentive for killing zombies anymore, I'm saying that previously we had that incentive of not getting killed plus the possibility to risk your life for better loot and a bunch of other cool mechanics; but now all that's left from that is the incentive of not getting killed and nothing else. It's a downgrade.

 

I recall a phrase: "Fun is its own reward."

 

Why would you go try to track down nurses instead of looking for a Pop 'n' Pills?

[Typhon13]

I like cleaning up after the horde. I haven't noticed any performance issues either. Probably won't play A17 tbh.

[Xtrakicking]

I recall a phrase: "Fun is its own reward."

 

Why would you go try to track down nurses instead of looking for a Pop 'n' Pills?

 

Why not have both options? Why should looking for a Pop n' Pills be the only way?

[Jedo]

Why not have both options? Why should looking for a Pop n' Pills be the only way?

 

...

 

That's where we started: Zombies shouldn't be loot caravans. Surviving zombies is the reward. The game is a survival game. (Also, in what zombie universe do people choose to engage zombies if they have any other choice?)

 

Let's try this: Why should zombies have loot?

 

Additionally, aside from loot, how would you incentivize killing zombies?

[Xtrakicking]

...

 

That's where we started: Zombies shouldn't be loot caravans. Surviving zombies is the reward. The game is a survival game. (Also, in what zombie universe do people choose to engage zombies if they have any other choice?)

 

Let's try this: Why should zombies have loot?

 

Answer from an immersive and interesting perspective: Zombies are people. People have stuff, especially in a zombie apocalypse, and it's logical to expect a soldier to have ammo or guns and to expect nurses to have bandages or medicine. It's certainly more realistic and interesting than random backpacks popping from nowhere *sometimes*, only with the added fact of knowing they have nothing fancy.

 

Answer from a gameplay perspective: Like I said again, there's little to no point in risking your life fighting tougher zombies if they give you nothing in return, and it's a much better approach to have zombies with loot that may push the player to risk his life. It's all about giving options, not taking them away.

 

Additionally, aside from loot, how would you incentivize killing zombies?

 

The only thing I can think of is by increasing the number of zombies and their aggressiveness to such an extent that killing them so they don't kill you is necessary. Obviously, this is not feasible because some people don't like it when games become too hard for them and because the game's performance wouldn't be able to handle it, but that's what I got.

[bloom_meister]

Answer from an immersive and interesting perspective: Zombies are people. People have stuff, especially in a zombie apocalypse, and it's logical to expect a soldier to have ammo or guns and to expect nurses to have bandages or medicine. It's certainly more realistic and interesting than random backpacks popping from nowhere *sometimes*, only with the added fact of knowing they have nothing fancy.

 

Answer from a gameplay perspective: Like I said again, there's little to no point in risking your life fighting tougher zombies if they give you nothing in return, and it's a much better approach to have zombies with loot that may push the player to risk his life. It's all about giving options, not taking them away.

 

I have made the same arguments myself Xtra however I believe Roland has stated that despite all the posts trying to justify this from a gameplay perspective its actually all about performance so using either logic or gameplay reasons for asking for it to be un-nerfed wont help I'm afraid.

 

We need to see how it actually plays, for example most of my brass, oil, bones(for tape) and many other absolutely essential mats comes from looting zombies as I tends to kill every one I see. Now it would appear that other from experience (which can be gotten other ways), that the incentive to kill zombies has pretty much disappeared so my worry is how are we going to get all the mats we need for other things?

 

A well thought out change (yeah i know..I know...) would have taken this into account and both added the mats to containers that did not previously have them OR adjusted the recipies that use them to either require lower quantities or to use other items. I will be both shocked and amazed if TFP have done this but you and I both know they don't tend to think through the repercussions of their changes and don't tend to understand because they don't play their own game BUT we need to see it in action and get a few hours under our belts first, least thats my take.

[Xtrakicking]

I have made the same arguments myself Xtra however I believe Roland has stated that despite all the posts trying to justify this from a gameplay perspective its actually all about performance so using either logic or gameplay reasons for asking for it to be un-nerfed wont help I'm afraid.

 

We need to see how it actually plays, for example most of my brass, oil, bones(for tape) and many other absolutely essential mats comes from looting zombies as I tends to kill every one I see. Now it would appear that other from experience (which can be gotten other ways), that the incentive to kill zombies has pretty much disappeared so my worry is how are we going to get all the mats we need for other things?

 

A well thought out change (yeah i know..I know...) would have taken this into account and both added the mats to containers that did not previously have them OR adjusted the recipies that use them to either require lower quantities or to use other items. I will be both shocked and amazed if TFP have done this but you and I both know they don't tend to think through the repercussions of their changes and don't tend to understand because they don't play their own game BUT we need to see it in action and get a few hours under our belts first, least thats my take.

 

Yeah, I mean, one of the biggest reasons why I'm so skeptical of this change is the fact that I'm pretty much convinced that the only reason TFP did it was to gain a performance improvement. No bigger picture and no overhaul for a better, more interesting mechanic; just performance boost.

 

I guess it feels slightly disappointing that they're taking options away and replacing them with uninteresting concepts (like the popping backpacks) instead of something better and refreshing; and after waiting almost a full year for the new update, the feel gets worse.

 

Now, I just want to be clear that there are many things I love about the update. The retrievable arrows, new POIs, vehicles and weapon mods are great, along with many things. Some people might not like the new health system, but I'm actually eager to try it out, as it at least doesn't feel like an obvious step backwards, a sacrifice in an atempt to gain performance like the loot thing feels.

[Jedo]

Answer from an immersive and interesting perspective: Zombies are people. People have stuff, especially in a zombie apocalypse, and it's logical to expect a soldier to have ammo or guns and to expect nurses to have bandages or medicine. It's certainly more realistic and interesting than random backpacks popping from nowhere *sometimes*, only with the added fact of knowing they have nothing fancy.

 

Answer from a gameplay perspective: Like I said again, there's little to no point in risking your life fighting tougher zombies if they give you nothing in return, and it's a much better approach to have zombies with loot that may push the player to risk his life. It's all about giving options, not taking them away.

 

From an immersive and interesting perspective: Why would I fight a zombie for a chance at one of those things instead of heading to a store where my chances of getting them are significantly increased? (And if by "immersive" we mean "realistic," I'm not going to be engaging zombies just to loot their corpses.)

 

From a gameplay perspective: What reward do people get for climbing Mt. Everest, an activity which is a significant risk to their lives and which costs a lot of money?

 

I'm not sure what "giving options" has to do with this. You don't have the option of getting meat anywhere except from killing animals. Should TFP make it available elsewhere in the world for the sake of "giving options"?

[Xtrakicking]

From an immersive and interesting perspective: Why would I fight a zombie for a chance at one of those things instead of heading to a store where my chances of getting them are significantly increased? (And if by "immersive" we mean "realistic," I'm not going to be engaging zombies just to loot their corpses.)

 

That answer doesn't address what I said about the logic behind zombies having loot being immersive, that's just what you would rather do personally as opposed to what I would do, difference being that now I won't get to do it my way because the devs decided to sacrifice that option for a slight performance boost.

 

And I don't know about you, but if I was a badass in a zombie apocalypse and I saw a zombified police officer with his pistol still in his holder, for example, I guarantee you I would go for it without thinking it twice

 

From a gameplay perspective: What reward do people get for climbing Mt. Everest, an activity which is a significant risk to their lives and which costs a lot of money?

 

You might find it cool to go to Mt. Everest for no real reason just because, but I can also guarantee you that unless I'm promised to be Heaven's new leader in the afterlife, I wouldn't go to Mt. Everest at all.

 

(Also, the threat of the zombies in this game with climbing Mt. Everest is not a realistic comparison. Like I said, walking away from a horde isn't a reward.)

 

I'm not sure what "giving options" has to do with this. You don't have the option of getting meat anywhere except from killing animals. Should TFP make it available elsewhere in the world for the sake of "giving options"?

 

Those are two complete different things. Most of the time zombies don't even have great loot, but when they do, it feels awesome, and when they don't, their junk might still prove useful (either for materials or for selling), and so, it makes sense for it to be a mechanic as opposed to your meat comparison that obviously would never work in the game.

[Roland]

Yeah, I mean, one of the biggest reasons why I'm so skeptical of this change is the fact that I'm pretty much convinced that the only reason TFP did it was to gain a performance improvement. No bigger picture and no overhaul for a better, more interesting mechanic; just performance boost.

 

I guess it feels slightly disappointing that they're taking options away and replacing them with uninteresting concepts (like the popping backpacks) instead of something better and refreshing; and after waiting almost a full year for the new update, the feel gets worse.

 

Now, I just want to be clear that there are many things I love about the update. The retrievable arrows, new POIs, vehicles and weapon mods are great, along with many things. Some people might not like the new health system, but I'm actually eager to try it out, as it at least doesn't feel like an obvious step backwards, a sacrifice in an atempt to gain performance like the loot thing feels.

 

This isn't accurate. They had several team meetings about this where they hashed out what the pros and cons would be. It is true that the primary reason it was done was because it would help performance and solve duping issues. But they talked about the ramifications and the pros and cons from a gameplay perspective as well.

 

They ARE successful game designers after all.

 

They came to the conclusion that in addition to performance gains and ending duping they also wanted to end the meta of farming zombies for mats. You know those old Looney Toon cartoons where the shipwrecked characters see each other as a hamburger and hotdog because they're hungry? The devs felt that too many people look at zombies and see pinatas.

 

They discussed and came to the conclusion that this is what they wanted to do months ago.

 

I get the feeling that people assume that the change was a last minute decision by Joel alone and stuck in right before Joel did his video. Not true. It has been implemented for quite awhile but just not revealed. We have genius devs who have made this amazing game but as soon as they do something someone doesn't prefer then all of a sudden they are dopey devs throwing in something stupid that didn't need to be changed to take away choices etc.

 

The devs can make bad choices. I'm not saying that they can't. However, they've never just done something thoughtlessly. Remember, Madmole, Faatal, Kinyajuu, The Fun Pimp, Prime, Gazz...all smart guys all voted and came to consensus about this particular design choice after debating it and talking about it. Yes, they all could be wrong and it could be the worst decision. But it also isn't a final decision. It is a development experimental decision and they are going to see where it leads.

 

In my own experience:

 

Experience points are still plenty of incentive to kill zombies.

There is still the chance of getting loot.

The interaction text on the screen being gone is a fantastic improvement for immersion.

Other choices like stealth, misdirection, avoidance, leading away, etc. are now more equally viable to killing.

Killing and moving on without opening a container menu each time is nice.

 

It reminded me of when they removed experience for crafting at workstations. Once that was gone it was freeing. At first glance it was taking away an incentive to craft at a station but the result was no more playing the game of menus and timer watching. As I said, not everyone will like it and some will scratch their heads about the why. But assuming that it was thoughtlessly put in without thinking through the gameplay ramifications just because you just barely heard about it is inaccurate.

 

Faatal, Kinyajuu, Prime, The Fun Pimp, Madmole, Gazz....you really think these guys just use a Magic 8-ball to come up with this stuff?

[Xtrakicking]

Snip for space

 

Fair enough. Like I said, it just feels like a bad decision, which doesn't necessarily mean it is. It all comes down to trying it out.