Destroying the game

[KirillWright]

14 minutes ago, Cr0wst0rm said:

Потому что альфа 16 была одной из последних альф, в которой была довольно приличная случайная генерация. Затем ее выбросили с плоскими мирами, в которых, с другой стороны, есть более интересные города, но дисперсия ландшафта в основном на исходе. Другие функции были упрощены (удалены банки, не метательные копья). Эта игра стала просто повторяющейся, только благодаря тому, что теперь POI основаны на подземельях, их очень легко запомнить, что было совсем по-другому в альфа 16, она просто казалась более открытой. Но давайте перевернем другую страницу. Ситуация с книгами - просто катастрофа . Кто бы мог когда-либо разработать игру таким образом, чтобы вам нужно было грабить книги 100 раз только для того, чтобы получить определенный навык? Где в этом веселье и, на самом деле, где в этом смысл, когда вы также продолжаете получать то, что уже прочитали?
Я также не согласен, что это было слишком легко, насколько я помню, было гораздо больше шансов быть ошеломленным всего лишь одним ударом, затем зомби разорвали бы вас на части. Бой был прилично сложным. Единственными глючными вещами, которые я помнил с тех времен, были застревание меди в кузнице и застревание мертвых зомби в режиме анимации, но это все, вы просто не можете осуждать предыдущую версию, основываясь на том факте, что есть более новые, более блестящие .

Другой аргумент, который я часто вижу, заключается в том, что если нам что-то не нравится, мы должны это модифицировать. Но почему? Почему мы, игроки, должны исправлять то, что работало раньше? Разве это не работа разработчика — выравнивать такие вещи? А как насчет мультиплеера, вы действительно думаете, что все моддеры способны предоставить исправления для беспорядка, сохраняя игру играбельной на размещенных серверах?

Я действительно разочарован тем, что модераторы всегда продолжают рекламировать последнюю версию и никогда не занимают объективную позицию, когда дело касается других мнений. Я бы очень хотел увидеть в этом немного честности, но все, что я вижу, это оправдания и аргументы в пользу Веселых Сутенеров.

What is wrong with this moderator? The problem is that A16 was many times simpler than what we have now. Many crafts were without blocking and were crafted immediately on the knees. Food as well as medicine (which was not needed) were in monstrous quantities. The Dead were super weak extras. The generation of both biomes and cities was complete crap. The only thing you can love about A16 is the pumping and negative effects (they made the game very difficult) You could freeze and die (including from the rain). Food had more debuffs. The most boring thing about that version is the locations (just boxes with endless sofas)

[Grandpa Minion]

6 hours ago, Cr0wst0rm said:

Because alpha 16 was one of the latest alphas that had somewhat decent random gen. 

 

ALSO, in multiplayer A16 people had to travel the map to look for calipers which created opportunitys for pvp and pve players to come across other players... Once they took that away the game made it where players could just stay in one spot to get everything you needed without having to travel. Than they added the party system which really made multiplayer pvp unbalanced. So yeah aot of people i talk to think alphas prior the a17 where the best to play in multiplayer.

 

FEW THINGS THAT WHERE REMOVED FROM THE GAME PEOPLE LOVED THAT NO LONGER EXIST:

A. calipers

B. combiner

C. steel polish

D. round spikes

E. water jars

F. clothes

 

Edited October 26 by Grandpa Minion (see edit history)

[Rotor]

3 hours ago, Grandpa Minion said:

 

E. water jars

 

 

Moment of Silence, please! /handoverchest

[pApA^LeGBa]

@Grandpa Minion Clothes are coming back i guess. Next big update will include a wardrobe system, whatever that means. Outfit DLC´s are also announced for Q4 2024.

 

There is no enemy that justifies steel polish in the game. That would be easy mode. It would be nice as a pure optical thing though. PvP is not an argument here. The game balance is focused on PvE mostly. Also wasn´t there a promise that PvP will get a seperate game mode with it´s own balance once the game is finished?

 

I don´t miss the jar system with water as it was way too easy, but i don´t like the new system that is as easy as before.

 

Log spikes and combining things in the workbench, also OP.

 

I don´t miss calipers, but i also wouldn´t mind them. For experienced players ammo is a non issue as you can melee a lot easily. Turret ammo is cheap af and on horde night i don´t fire a single round. Grenades/pipe bombs and mollies. I usually get more and more ammo in my boxes the later in game i am.

 

 

Edited October 27 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[12pack]

I guess since everyone else is @%$#ing about everything, maybe I can have a couple words too..

Not that it's gonna make a little tiny bit of difference, but for christ sake, like the game or don't.. crying about it in forums ain't changing a damn thing.

I, personally, did like watching it change through the years, and the one thing I miss most is the learn by doing.

Whatever, that's not the point.. the point is that there have been a lot of things that I thought should be different, so I learned how to edit XML

for the rest there were MODS.. the changes that I made that I really liked, I learned xpath, and kept through each update..

should everyone? no, but if it really twists your britches that much, then do something about it.

Ok..  I rolled out on the left side of my bed, and I don't like that..

Everyone just keep crying about things you can change. 👍

As you Were.

[Grandpa Minion]

57 minutes ago, 12pack said:

I guess since everyone else is @%$#ing about everything, maybe I can have a couple words too..

Not that it's gonna make a little tiny bit of difference, but for christ sake, like the game or don't.. crying about it in forums ain't changing a damn thing.

 

Your getting yourself upset over nothing, The topic that was being discussed was simply why some players think older versions of the game was better than it is now. Also, NUBLETS who where not around during that time have no opinion on the matter- since they have no clue what the others are even talking about. But yeah try to relax i dont think anyone was complaining they where just stating why they thought a16 was better.

[Scyris]

On 9/17/2024 at 8:53 AM, SylenThunder said:

 

Why to people always focus on Alpha 16?  That was probably one of the absolute buggiest versions that existed. Drive down a road and your minibike would teleport into a hill next to you with you on it. Managing servers was almost a complete nightmare unless you used several API mods to counter a number of the games issues in the world.

It was probably the first version that started taking away most of the survival aspects. Oh wait.. THAT"S why you like it so much. Alpha 16 was basically easy mode with no challenge and infinite food and ammo.

 

Because it had the best skill system, actually felt sandbox like as you had choices about things that have been taken away in a17+, it didn't try to force anyone to play a specific way like a17 and up does. Locking weapons to stats was the stupidest thing TFP ever did with the games skill system, it could have worked if done properly but its TFP thats expecting too much. A way to do it properly is add a way so you can mod gear to add up to +6 to a stat from mods. This way you can be more adaptable in your builds instead of being forced to power one stat to max. TFP also keeps putting in things to screw over specific playstyles specifically, with no real counter you can do against it. The whole sleeper volume trigger system was mainly done to screw with stealth builds. Yeah yeah I heard it said with higher stealth less chance of them getting triggered but thats only part of the problem. The other part is sleeper positioning, they are almost ALWAYS behind another block or placed in a way you cannot get line of sight it just looks super fake and artifical. The zombie rage system where they randomly get mach 2 speed all of a sudden was put in to screw over melee liking players as it doesn't really effect ranged users. Then you have digging zombies, now if it was only dogs or bear zombies/animals that could dig I'd be fine with it, but it makes NO SENSE for a zombie to be digging with their bare hands. I let the fact they can punch thru concrete slide because if they couldn't zombies wouldn't be any threat.

 

I've been playing since alpha 10.2, and up to a16.4 the game was great, but then a17 and they started going downhill by taking features away from the game and not adding anything actually new. By new I mean totally new, not a rehash into a worse form of the same gameplay system. I mean Steel tools and radiated zombies I believe were the top in a10.2 even, how has the game gone no where item or enemy wise in like 8-10 years?

 

I been playing a mod called Afterlife, everything is a action skill EVEN ATTRIBUTES. Use clubs? it ups all stats but primarlly str. No weapon is locked to a stat, they all start equal and you get better with them by using the weapon of your choice. The attributes also do things, Str ups block damage, entity damage with certain weapons, carry weight and a few other things. Agility ups move/run/sneak speed as well as ups damage with agi based weapons. Most weapons are split between 2 stats. like Spear is Str and perception. Blood moon/zombie Ai also is back like a16, zombies come from all sides, and will not neatly walk into your kill box for you, you need to defend all sides as hey won't give a damn about your planned path. Granted in a16.4 something did need to be done because all u needed was to be on the 2nd floor of a poi and the zombies would run in circles under you if you knocked the stairs out, but they went too far, by TFP making the zombies TOO smart they made them actually the opposite. Its easy to just herd them to a kill box and they'll generally do little damage to the base if built properly. Afterlife also uses the magazine system but in a better form, stats or perks do not factor into what mags you find, but you CAN scrap magazines into materials to craft them into magazines you DO want, Perk books too. Mod also removes traders entirely, they still have half destroyed pois you can loot, with maybe a gun vending machine and a machine to turn old cash into dukes, but other than that, your on your own. Gotta loot or craft everything.

 

Ever notice how most of the top 7dtd mods throw tfp's stat system in the garbage? its because basically no one likes it. Only people who like it are ones who have never played a16.4, so they don't really count for an opinion on it IMO as they never played the game with it.

 

People liked how sandboxy and free alpha 16.4 was, in the skill system, bases, basically everything. But in a17 and up more and more keeps being taken away and players are being forced into playing the same way. This is why many people who played a16.4 feel a16.4 was the last time the game was actually good, as its honestly just gone downhill since gameplay wise. best thing TFP did is prob only the mod system allowing you to swap mods in and out of weapons and armor, but other than that, not much of value has been added, and pretty graphics don't fix gameplay issues.

 

They also used to call this game a tower defense, but its lacking most of the things that those games have, 7dtd needs far more traps, a good example of this is dungeon defenders, or orc's must die. Or for a zombie game simmlar to 7dtd, Night of the Dead has nightly blood moon like waves but has proper defensive traps to deal with them, something 7dtd lacks. I am not saying 7dtd has no traps, I am saying it has a severe lack of them, and most of them break to fast to be useful for long.

Edited October 28 by Scyris (see edit history)

[4sheetzngeegles]

I use the trader system in the beginning, as a way to try to see the potential for a story line down

the road. But the thing I miss most regarding traders is that I had to find them. It may be angsty

and annoying for some but it made me feel alone until I found them, off to themselves, in the

wilderness. That's is also why I miss the multilevel elevation for the POIs, this I then tied into the

Temperature elevation, and my fractalized biomes that were hand painted based on elevation.

These had blended borders with a single lighting gradient, it made a seemless transition between

biomes.

 

Just putting hills in between progression locations, does not provide the same feel as being in

a mountain top village, with snow clouds mixed with smoke particles, provided a volumetric

feeling to the atmosphere, and looking down on a city that appears then is obscured until you

go to a lower elevation.

 

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

15 hours ago, Grandpa Minion said:

 

Your getting yourself upset over nothing, The topic that was being discussed was simply why some players think older versions of the game was better than it is now. Also, NUBLETS who where not around during that time have no opinion on the matter- since they have no clue what the others are even talking about. But yeah try to relax i dont think anyone was complaining they where just stating why they thought a16 was better.

 

Are you seriously telling people to relax and then proceed to call people nublets for not being around, which wasn´t even mentioned in particular, and that even in caps? Really? 

 

Well PvP players, shouldn´t be surprised by that....

 

Look at the first post, it´s not really exclusively about that. OP just wanted to vent, insult and assumed the devs are drunk all the time, the OP was complaining how it was better. The topic here is basically whatever you want regarding how the game plays and how people play it since A16.

 

Edited October 28 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[rebeldj1]

I'm curious about the extra skill points and wasn't sure where to post.  If you do the challenges, aren't you able to get more skill points more quickly and progress much faster?  Wasn't TFP goal to slow it down?

[theFlu]

43 minutes ago, rebeldj1 said:

If you do the challenges, aren't you able to get more skill points more quickly and progress much faster?  Wasn't TFP goal to slow it down?

They're a decent chunk of XP, but not relatively that much; completely overshadowed by the XP settings at the very least. The early ones are a couple zed kills worth, the big ones need mass killing to reach, and then yield some 10-20% of what those kills themselves gave.

[MirkoVawsk]

Holy cow you whine a lot. Get over yourself. Go play A16 if you want no one is stopping you. No one is forcing you to play the current, superior, iteration.

[Ttocs]

Hard agree, I always look back on 16.4 with rose tinted glasses too. For me it was the first PC version i played (played PS4 version before that, not sure what V# is was).

It was when the game held the most charm and magic for me and only annoying bug that bothered me was the disappearing minibikes or when it would bury itself. Apart from that it was probably the version when I can honestly say I had the most fun playing. Never been a huge fan of the new zombie AI even though I know how hard TFP worked on it (sorry). When zombies felt like zombies, when nurse zombies dropped medical stuff, and each zombie had its own themed drops. Ventured to far into the snow? cold? kill a lumberjack z and take his coat, boom done, just like you would do if it were real life. LBD make progression feel natural. Liked the gun parts system even though its less realistic but gameplay wise felt better. I don't hate the direction the game took but as far as a game being fun it went backwards imo and that's what games should be, focused and measured on entertainment value. 

In fact I may take the advice in the thread and re download the ol girl (16.4) and have some good ol 7D2D fun again 😃

 

Oh and forgot the smell mechanic when you carried meat on you, I really liked it and it was a nice risk/reward. Never did get why it wasn't kept in later versions.

[Kosmic Kerman]

12 hours ago, Ttocs said:

Oh and forgot the smell mechanic when you carried meat on you, I really liked it and it was a nice risk/reward. Never did get why it wasn't kept in later versions.

 

My understanding is that it was an unintended casualty of a code rewrite. Essentially, some legacy code was rewritten/refactored and "smell" no longer worked after that.

 

I've been playing since A15 and don't miss A16 at all. I vastly prefer the current state of the game. Something to consider is that pretty much every feature in a game comes with a cost and that cost isn't always obvious. For example, it is extremely possible that if you were to replace the current zombie AI with the A16 AI the game would be vastly inferior because zombies would just bash blocks (or spin in place) in POIs rather than pathing towards you.

Edited Thursday at 04:14 PM by Kosmic Kerman (see edit history)

[SylenThunder]

3 minutes ago, Kosmic Kerman said:

 

My understanding is that it was an unintended casualty of a code rewrite. Essentially, some legacy code was rewritten/refactored and "smell" no longer worked after that.

 

No. It was too much processing overhead when the breadcrumb system was added in. Initially it was planned to be added back in later after optimization and a re-write. Instead we just got the dumbed-down "feral sense" system that doesn't really do anything other than make it easier for zeds to detect you.

[Kosmic Kerman]

2 minutes ago, SylenThunder said:

 

No. It was too much processing overhead when the breadcrumb system was added in. Initially it was planned to be added back in later after optimization and a re-write. Instead we just got the dumbed-down "feral sense" system that doesn't really do anything other than make it easier for zeds to detect you.

 

I'm not sure I really see a difference between didn't work or was non-performant. My recollection is that the problems with the "smell" system was one of things that held up the release of that particular alpha. Regardless, performance is one of the major limiting factors in 7dtd.  I fully support the Devs refactoring legacy code even if it sometimes leads to features being dropped because they are resource hogs or just don't function properly following the refactor.

 

 

[Ttocs]

10 hours ago, Kosmic Kerman said:

 

For example, it is extremely possible that if you were to replace the current zombie AI with the A16 AI the game would be vastly inferior because zombies would just bash blocks (or spin in place) in POIs rather than pathing towards you.

Inferior in terms of AI yes but the point was for me it felt more organic and fun back then which can be an argument that its superior. A split in opinion that doesn't seem too uncommon. I honestly don't mind them just bashing blocks but agree the spinning zombies were.... undesirable. 

[Kosmic Kerman]

14 hours ago, Ttocs said:

Inferior in terms of AI yes but the point was for me it felt more organic and fun back then which can be an argument that its superior. A split in opinion that doesn't seem too uncommon. I honestly don't mind them just bashing blocks but agree the spinning zombies were.... undesirable. 

 

My post was not about people's subjective opinions on zombie pathing for horde nights but about how the A16 zombie pathing might work in the game as it currently exists. Prior to A16, you generally didn't find zombies in POIs. A16 introduced sleepers and A17 introduced quests and new zombie pathing/AI. Personally, I don't think the previous AI was a good fit for POI quests. Presumably the Devs felt the same way which is likely one of the reasons the zombie pathing was changed in A17 when quests were added.  And while the pathfinding has been refined since then,, zombies still do incredibly dumb stuff around stairs and railings. This is the context for my post.  While some people may prefer A16's zombie pathing for horde nights, I think most of them would find it miserable for POI quests. 

 

This leads to the obvious question of whether it would possible to have one type of AI/pathing for horde nights and one type of pathing for POIs.  Maybe this is possible at a technical level but I have no idea what the overhead of this decision would be.  Would it further degrade performance? Do the Devs have enough staff to maintain two different AI codebases? Would it be too off-putting that zombies behave one way in POIs and a different way on Horde Night? What would happen if a player entered a POI on Horde Night and the game had to deal with pathing for both Horde Night zombies and POI sleeper zombies?  

 

My bottom line is that I think some people are nostalgic for the way things used to be without fully thinking through the consequences and ramifications of reverting current systems to old systems.  I think some people are just picking and choosing the things they liked in old alphas without realizing that those things could negatively impact aspects of other parts of the game they are mostly happy with.

[Javabean867]

On 10/30/2024 at 11:55 PM, Ttocs said:

 

Oh and forgot the smell mechanic when you carried meat on you, I really liked it and it was a nice risk/reward. Never did get why it wasn't kept in later versions.

16.4 did not have the smell mechanic.  i think that was in a 15 and prior versions.

[Cr0wst0rm]

Just now, Javabean867 said:

16.4 did not have the smell mechanic.  i think that was in a 15 and prior versions.

now we only have a smelly RPG 

[Ttocs]

18 hours ago, Kosmic Kerman said:

 

My post was not about people's subjective opinions on zombie pathing for horde nights

Neither was mine. It was global organic feeling

 

18 hours ago, Kosmic Kerman said:

 some people are nostalgic for the way things used to be without fully thinking through the consequences and ramifications of reverting current systems to old systems. 

Hmm didn't mention this either, I would never expect a crossbred version, if I want to play A16.4 AI I will go back to it and play, not expect it to be implemented into current version where there would obviously be some issues. My take on this thread was to reminisce on things we liked more from that version though I may have floated away from OPs initial take.

 

18 hours ago, Kosmic Kerman said:

 

This leads to the obvious question of whether it would possible to have one type of AI/pathing for horde nights and one type of pathing for POIs. 

I have no idea but probably very unlikely.

[4sheetzngeegles]

The colors are just to separate thoughts.
A few possible answers for tests i've done over time.

What would happen if a player entered a POI on Horde Night and the game had to deal with pathing for both Horde Night zombies and POI sleeper zombies?

Until close to the end of the horde night the POI volumes are suppressed. I got curious and ran through some of the bigger pois different times.
A bike ride away from my base being attacked, and went through the pois. Nothing spawned till near dawn. I hope this has changed.

The above answer is yes, in the POIs they are labeled as Sleepers, they just need a physical name change and a reorder of task and target  when in a sleeper
volume, On horde night POI sleepers would retain name. They are just clones, The main thing that would happen is a larger entityclasses.xml. The horde
is basically goverened by IsHordeNight and feral sense.

For example, it is extremely possible that if you were to replace the current zombie AI with the A16 AI the game would be vastly inferior because zombies
would just bash blocks (or spin in place) in POIs rather than pathing towards you.

It actually might work more differently now, there are now supporting mechanics that didn't exist then. It still does the same thing only not as apparent.

"Present mechanic" Instead of spin when unreachable, destroyblock, they spun because there was no state to compensate for elevated or unreachable, so it looped.
The Added State
RangedAttackTarget itemType=1;cooldown=4;duration=3;minRange=1;maxRange=6;unreachableRange=18|  A simple if\then statement that adjusted their reactions.
Also
<property name="LookAtAngle" value="60"/> before the vision was 2d left and right only, and there was nothing in the state machine for up. So MM had them
look up, similar to 7.11. or the turrets. You never know there is a problem until it happens.

A17 incorporated the turret view or angular lerp, I called it the "no where to hide alpha". But players didn't like the zombies that could create stairs
to reach upper levels.

This leads to the obvious question of whether it would possible to have one type of AI/pathing for horde nights and one type of pathing for POIs.

Yup, you can have as many iterations of responses as you are willing to type for. The finite number of models, mean they will look the same, but act
differently or unexpectedly. But these states or animated behavior have to be added first. But with 12 existing elements, you could cover a huge array of
if\then situations. The compound problem is humans, unpredictability, and choice.

I wish I could import the coding between aphas to make one culmination mod. It would be interesting. Of course the older graphics were more akin to cel shading,
But then so is the new Blood Moons. So what goes around comes around, or maybe they are going to use excerpts from multiple iterations or alphas .
Im curious to see.

[Andrew Eddie]

I dispute the original claim of the first post, that the game is destroyed. I am really enjoying 1.x overall. But I think a few things are not ideal.

 

I like the magazine system, but I don't like that you can "game it" by putting points into skills. Forgetting exila should also come as some sort of "cost".

 

I still don't like the arrangement of the skills tree. I feel like I want to be able to level my "Weapons Skill" and then within that I need to decide how to divide points between melee or ranged. My "Armour Skill" should create a tension between the type of armour I'm wearing and stealthiness. My "Survival Skill" should look at creating tension between looting and cooking, etc.

 

My least favourite thing in 1.x is that the trader quests are just not worth doing. I don't do them anymore and I don't not at all feel like I am missing out on anything. I do, however, like the legendary parts feature for T6 items. I think the traders need to have more items that simply can't be found in the wild or crafted to make them more relevant.

 

My 2c

[BFT2020]

15 hours ago, Andrew Eddie said:

I like the magazine system, but I don't like that you can "game it" by putting points into skills. Forgetting exila should also come as some sort of "cost".

 

I am fine with the boost, but not the amount of boost.  I am trying a 1-5 boost instead of 2-10 boost that the vanilla game has.  So I am getting more crafting magazines  in the ones I perk into, but the difference is not as severe to the ones I am not perked into at the moment.

 

I also took the crafting magazines a bit further - I removed all the schematics and recipe unlocks via perk books and rolled all of those into crafting magazines - either into existing crafting trees or creating a new crafting magazine tree.