Long-range rifles imbalance

[Krougal]

8 minutes ago, bdubyah said:

Do you have any suggestions on how they should improve it? 61.3 damage out of a T0 weapon is pretty good, no? How much more damage should it do? If anything, I'd say it and the pipe shotgun should get just slightly faster reloads. Maybe like 15% faster tops.

I think he means t1, so pistol vs hunting rifle(?)

There is endless confusion around here between tier and QL and then people forget there is a tier zero.

So pipeys, primitive bow, bone knife, leather wraps, stone & wood weapons are all tier 0.

[BFT2020]

34 minutes ago, bdubyah said:

Do you have any suggestions on how they should improve it? 61.3 damage out of a T0 weapon is pretty good, no? How much more damage should it do? If anything, I'd say it and the pipe shotgun should get just slightly faster reloads. Maybe like 15% faster tops.

 

I recently modded the T0 firearms in my game.  Made all of them have equivalent damage to the T1 weapons, but also made it so they break after 20-40 shots (all except machine gun which is 50-100) and non repairable.  I also switched the pipe pistol to 44 cal and the pipe machine gun to 9mm.  Machine gun has a larger clip size and faster fire rate compared to vanilla.  In addition to that, T0 equipment I removed the ability to add mods to them (since they are junk weapons to begin with).

 

So far I been loving the changes but it is still a WIP regards balancing.  Nice having a single shot shotgun that can do a fairly decent job of taking down zombies in a pinch, but still have its other weaknesses and the inability to be repaired so I have to either replace it or eventually get up to the next tier.

 

But not sure if everyone would like something like that.

[bdubyah]

1 hour ago, BFT2020 said:

 

I recently modded the T0 firearms in my game.  Made all of them have equivalent damage to the T1 weapons, but also made it so they break after 20-40 shots (all except machine gun which is 50-100) and non repairable.  I also switched the pipe pistol to 44 cal and the pipe machine gun to 9mm.  Machine gun has a larger clip size and faster fire rate compared to vanilla.  In addition to that, T0 equipment I removed the ability to add mods to them (since they are junk weapons to begin with).

 

So far I been loving the changes but it is still a WIP regards balancing.  Nice having a single shot shotgun that can do a fairly decent job of taking down zombies in a pinch, but still have its other weaknesses and the inability to be repaired so I have to either replace it or eventually get up to the next tier.

 

But not sure if everyone would like something like that.

I did the ammo swaps in Wasteland back when they first added the pipe weapons. I did have my original pipe weapons break but changed that as it's just an annoyance.

2 hours ago, Krougal said:

I think he means t1, so pistol vs hunting rifle(?)

There is endless confusion around here between tier and QL and then people forget there is a tier zero.

So pipeys, primitive bow, bone knife, leather wraps, stone & wood weapons are all tier 0.

Ah, yeah, maybe he did. He said single shot and complained about reload times so I immediately thought pipe rifle. Hunting rifle reload isn't that bad so not sure the issue there. Would have to open the game and look at damages to see his issue better. 

[Krougal]

3 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

But not sure if everyone would like something like that.

Yeah, I still wouldn't use them.

Seriously though, I mean they suck to bad to bother with and you made them worse lol?

You really are a masochist.

[bdubyah]

I mean, everything can't be great. There have to be drawbacks. And if a rifle is all you've managed to find then it's better than nothing. Plus while you can rapid fire a pistol I'd think the higher damage of the rifle gives you a higher chance of either an instant decap, or just knocking them down. And that can prove invaluable in certain situations. You can dump 5 rounds out of a pistol into a zombie's chest and they may not even flinch. 

[warmer]

Hunting and a quick zoom for scouting if you have a scope. I'll take 50 frames with me and nerd poke up and then scope out the area. 

 

The biggest issue is the view distance making the rifle nerfed. The games draw distance is way less than a rifles range and in that sense they suck for long distance sniping.

Edited August 15 by warmer (see edit history)

[Suxar]

4 hours ago, warmer said:

The biggest issue is the view distance making the rifle nerfed. The games draw distance is way less than a rifles range and in that sense they suck for long distance sniping.

When you use the sight, the game draws further.

[Misamor]

17 hours ago, bdubyah said:

Do you have any suggestions on how they should improve it? 61.3 damage out of a T0 weapon is pretty good, no? How much more damage should it do? If anything, I'd say it and the pipe shotgun should get just slightly faster reloads. Maybe like 15% faster tops.

 

Read again. It's not for the T0 rifle, but the T1

[meganoth]

The technical limitations have hurt long range weapons for as long as I have been playing the game. The solution the game designers seem to have employed is to make "long range"  very very short. Sometimes I stand (not crouch) in a room and a zombie in the same room hasn't noticed me. Crouched I can often do insta-kill headshots without any points in stealth if I can see a zombie from the door which is quite often. 

 

But yes, Perception is one of the more difficult attributes to play early game, similar to INT, you have to know what you are doing. The early rifles are definitely one of its weakest points, but don't forget that every attribute is supposed to be balanced against other attributes, not single weapons against single other weapons. Perceptions strengths are in materials gathering (with looting and wrenching combined probably even outclassing mining) and the explosives for horde night (IMHO).

 

 

 

 

[warmer]

9 hours ago, Suxar said:

When you use the sight, the game draws further.

it doesn't draw in zombies from my experience. A 7.62 rifles range is EASILY 400m and the game can't even draw in zombies 400m away. That is what I am getting at. The rifles range is massively nerfed because the game can't actually make use a realistic range. Even 400m would be great, but it can't even do that.

[BFT2020]

On 8/14/2024 at 5:22 PM, Krougal said:

Yeah, I still wouldn't use them.

Seriously though, I mean they suck to bad to bother with and you made them worse lol?

You really are a masochist.

 

Yes Yes I am  😁

[8_Hussars]

20 hours ago, warmer said:

it doesn't draw in zombies from my experience. A 7.62 rifles range is EASILY 400m and the game can't even draw in zombies 400m away. That is what I am getting at. The rifles range is massively nerfed because the game can't actually make use a realistic range. Even 400m would be great, but it can't even do that.

The range of each firearm is somewhat different and presumably they are scaled against each other out to render distance. 

In that case does the actual rifle range even matter?  The rifle's range just needs to be better than the rest.

If a player can hit any zombie in render distance with the rifle; it doesn't matter how far the rifle could reach in real life.  Especially when balanced against other firearms in game that can see to render distance (like the pistol) but never hit at render distance.

[BFT2020]

2 hours ago, 8_Hussars said:

The range of each firearm is somewhat different and presumably they are scaled against each other out to render distance. 

In that case does the actual rifle range even matter?  The rifle's range just needs to be better than the rest.

If a player can hit any zombie in render distance with the rifle; it doesn't matter how far the rifle could reach in real life.  Especially when balanced against other firearms in game that can see to render distance (like the pistol) but never hit at render distance.

 

100%

 

Best thing to look at is damage fall off range.  You get max damage with a rifle further out compared to the handguns.

[Pernicious]

You just know that someone is here to vent rather discuss/learn when they say "tell me why this is any good, and don't  say <reason it is good>". It's a bit like coming in here and saying "What's the worst game on the market, and why did you say it was 7d2d?" 

 

Rifles are great in all stages of the game, not just late. @Misamor set up one scenario where the pistol shines, how about I have a go?

 

51 block range - Rifle damage 58 - Pistol damage? 0

 

A bit too contrived? (As if somehow comparing a side arm and long arm at point blank wasn't, but anyhow) Let's try another one.

 

Say, at around 30 blocks. Assuming you have your aimbot on and hitting every shot, due to effective range, you're still doing about half damage of a lower damage gun, or needing about 4 hits to do the same damage as one round from a rifle. That means you're chewing through the party's resources pretty fast compared to a rifle user. 

 

Balance is both an art and a science. The only time I think you can conclusively say that balance is out, is if either nobody is using a weapon, or everyone is. Shy of that, preferences will come into play. Not everything has to be perfectly equal in all situations, or there might as well be no variations at all. We all just get one firearm called "gun".

 

 

[weldabar]

On 8/13/2024 at 6:57 AM, RipClaw said:

In the late game, the sniper rifle is pretty OP. I once had a sniper horde base with a long, straight path and electric fences running across. Combined with the Penetrator perk, it was one of the most ammo efficient bases I ever had. Especially when dealing with Demolisher Zombies.

I came here to say exactly this.

Plus put a roof over the Zs to make them crawl and head shots line themselves up. 1 bullet through 4 zombies = very ammo efficient.

Easy horde night. The Zs have never once reached me.

But it's now (1.0) difficult to put all the skill points into sniper because it's not very useful up close, IMO. Late game the M60 MG is unavoidable.

[Misamor]

11 hours ago, Pernicious said:

You just know that someone is here to vent rather discuss/learn when they say "tell me why this is any good, and don't  say <reason it is good>". It's a bit like coming in here and saying "What's the worst game on the market, and why did you say it was 7d2d?" 

 

Rifles are great in all stages of the game, not just late. @Misamor set up one scenario where the pistol shines, how about I have a go?

 

51 block range - Rifle damage 58 - Pistol damage? 0

 

A bit too contrived? (As if somehow comparing a side arm and long arm at point blank wasn't, but anyhow) Let's try another one.

 

Say, at around 30 blocks. Assuming you have your aimbot on and hitting every shot, due to effective range, you're still doing about half damage of a lower damage gun, or needing about 4 hits to do the same damage as one round from a rifle. That means you're chewing through the party's resources pretty fast compared to a rifle user. 

 

Balance is both an art and a science. The only time I think you can conclusively say that balance is out, is if either nobody is using a weapon, or everyone is. Shy of that, preferences will come into play. Not everything has to be perfectly equal in all situations, or there might as well be no variations at all. We all just get one firearm called "gun".

 

 

 

Good job, you completely missed an essential part of my argument even though I explicity lay it out. Now tell everyone how that range advantage is useful while clearing buildings. You know, the one thing the game encourages you to do.

[zztong]

I certainly agree that a rifle isn't my preferred choice for clearing a POI. The OP's math on the matter rings true. A silenced rifle might be nice for stealth, but I'd rather just clear a POI using arrows and save bullets/slugs for hordes.

 

A rifle is more useful for horde night, but still not my main choice, though I suppose that's going to depend on the base design or if the player is being mobile. Having bow-kited hordes, I could maybe see doing it with a rifle, but if your goal is earning lots of experience points then you're going to be in a horde base.

 

I used to use a rifle for hunting, but hunting with stealth and bow has been awesome in A21 and V1.0.

 

I have used a tricked-out sniper rifle in the wasteland, spending the night just one-shotting distant Z's from a height.

Edited August 17 by zztong (see edit history)

[Pernicious]

12 hours ago, Misamor said:

 

Good job, you completely missed an essential part of my argument even though I explicity lay it out. Now tell everyone how that range advantage is useful while clearing buildings. You know, the one thing the game encourages you to do.

Sure, but first tell me how useful that bone knife is for mining, you know, that one thing the game encourages you to do.

 

Good job, just miss the point I made about you setting up a contrived situation for comparison and then making the sane contrived comparison in the reply. 

[theFlu]

On 8/17/2024 at 1:13 AM, Pernicious said:

A bit too contrived? (As if somehow comparing a side arm and long arm at point blank wasn't, but anyhow) Let's try another one.

 

Say, at around 30 blocks.

How often are you fighting anything at 30 blocks? And more importantly.. WHY?!

[Riamus]

18 minutes ago, theFlu said:

How often are you fighting anything at 30 blocks? And more importantly.. WHY?!

I probably do on horde night with my sniper rifle.  😁 I will often be killing zombies as they spawn, so whatever that distance is.  At least in the early party of horde night before they start to come too quickly to keep up.

[theFlu]

Just now, Riamus said:

At least in the early party of horde night before they start to come too quickly to keep up.

So, about 2 minutes every 7 hours? 😛 

[Riamus]

10 minutes ago, theFlu said:

So, about 2 minutes every 7 hours? 😛 

More than 2 minutes, but yes.  You didn't ask how often.  😀

 

I really don't have a problem with weapons that have specific uses.  You might as well say the rocket launcher isn't worth having yet people love it.  It certainly isn't what you want to use when clearing a POI unless you want to heal yourself constantly.  And it isn't normally a good option on horde nights either.  It is there for fun blowing stuff up.  Rifles are there mainly for horde night or because you enjoy those long shots with high damage headshots.  Melee isn't great on horde night unless you have a base designed for melee combat... And although I've done that, it isn't what I consider fun.  You stand in one place, facing one direction all horde night and just spam the attack button.  There are times and places for each weapon and that is okay.

[theFlu]

17 minutes ago, Riamus said:

You didn't ask how often.

Umm, that's what I literally asked, no?

 

18 minutes ago, Riamus said:

I really don't have a problem with weapons that have specific uses.

Me neither, I was just amusing myself with the Championships of The Most Contrived Example over there. High tier rifles are great, I think my favorite spec is still Agi/Per, where I use mostly rifles with stealth boni, parkour and reloads on the hop. Lower tiers are a little meh, but it's not like you can't put other weapons to good use while levelling rifles.

 

Rocket launcher isn't one I ever use, but it'd have its utility in some high tier POIs (like suitable jails and whatnot); but the basic nades fill that role while having a bit more utility with the timing, plus taking one less bag slot. If I had to complain about something, it'd be mines, but I wouldn't know how to make those "actually useful"...

[TWORDY]

Long Range Rifles seem to be pretty strong in scenarios where nobody expects and cannot reach me while I`m on the higher ground, behind decent cover, and the enemy lines up mindlessly. 

 

You cannot convince me that DMR/semi-auto battle rifle stands on par even with SMG while doing Digging Supplies mission in the late game with 2 other mates. Staying in the circle is almost impossible in the late game on Warrior while doing LvL 3 mission. Solo is a different story but in a group of players the difference is quite stark in survivability. I will try to record a video of what exactly is going on. Zombies are quite spammy sometimes.

 

The only thing that saves this class is probably a proper use of nades and mollies. I would love to have pickable Claymores (up to 3 placeable to avoid explosive placement spam, so more placed around me come back to equipment, or make claymores super expensive late game item)... Claymores to secure my perimeter. Or some grenades/mines on activation might suddenly lift up to 1.5 metres and explode nicely. Some fun toys for big boys. Please devs...

 

You cannot balance the game based only on damage and range tables, or reload times. Sometimes it takes hours of playtime to see the final results.

[Riamus]

31 minutes ago, theFlu said:

Umm, that's what I literally asked, no?

Oops.  Yeah, I read that as meaning that someone wouldn't rather than the frequency and didn't recheck your original post for wording.

19 minutes ago, TWORDY said:

Long Range Rifles seem to be pretty strong in scenarios where nobody expects and cannot reach me while I`m on the higher ground, behind decent cover, and the enemy lines up mindlessly. 

 

You cannot convince me that DMR/semi-auto battle rifle stands on par even with SMG while doing Digging Supplies mission in the late game with 2 other mates. Staying in the circle is almost impossible in the late game on Warrior while doing LvL 3 mission. Solo is a different story but in a group of players the difference is quite stark in survivability. I will try to record a video of what exactly is going on. Zombies are quite spammy sometimes.

 

The only thing that saves this class is probably a proper use of nades and mollies. I would love to have pickable Claymores (up to 3 placeable to avoid explosive placement spam, so more placed around me come back to equipment, or make claymores super expensive late game item)... Claymores to secure my perimeter. Or some grenades/mines on activation might suddenly lift up to 1.5 metres and explode nicely. Some fun toys for big boys. Please devs...

 

You cannot balance the game based only on damage and range tables, or reload times. Sometimes it takes hours of playtime to see the final results.

You mention the buried supplies quests being a problem with zombie spam.  Out of curiosity, is everyone looting the chest at once or digging at once?  I've seen very large numbers even with two people if both are digging and have either miner 69er maxed or treasure hunting maxed since you either dig very fast or don't need 10 blocks broken between zombie spawns.  And if everyone loots at once, you get spawns from each loot, which adds up quickly.