How can the game still be this unbalanced? It's been 10 years.

[Slingblade2040]

So I'm on my second play through using sledge hammer and took my what I learned from the 1st play through which helped me realize just how much more unbalanced the game has become. I thought ok the game seems more balanced with trader rewards but now during this 2nd play through the reality has hit me. The game is even more unbalanced than before.

 

Day 8 and I have quality 6 steel sledgehammer, armor magazine is 1 magazine from 100 which means I can also craft quality 6 armor, thanks to traders  selling work stations i have everything besides the Chem station which is basically useless thanks to how much ammo folks can get from infestation quests.

 

How is it the game and traders are still this unbalanced after 10 years? This is supposed to be the gold release or whatever they want to call it and the game still seems to be in alpha with many broken or unbalanced features.

 

This is from playing the game normally as any new player would, meaning doing quests from traders, looting and purchasing from traders which is literally outlined as to how to play and guided by the starter quest and from any new player playing any RPG or any other game. 

 

Since I know some folks are going to jump in with the set limits on yourself nonsense that is ridiculous. How the hell is it my job to set a limit when I'm playing a game how any new player would?

 

Setting limits would mean don't use nerd outfit, don't use trader, don't do more than 2 or 3 quests, don't loot PoIs if you did alot of quests, don't mine so many resources, don't do infestations if you have alot of ammo. 

 

What the is the point of playing the game then if at mostly default settings the game is that unbalanced that it would require players to set up those ridiculous limits on themselves.

[BFT2020]

I am doing default settings (except for difficulty, feral sense, loot respawn, and death penalty, 50 minute days) but I am nowhere near where you are at.

 

Currently doing an Int playthrough and on Day 20.  The best weapons I have currently are AK Q1, Double Barrel shotgun Q1, Pistol Q3, and Stun baton Q1.  Armor I can craft Q3 (just unlocked actually).  I am a bit ahead on workstations (crafting my chem station right now) but that is expected with me going Int and Advanced Engineering is set at Perk 3 right now.  I do have a minibike and working on unlocking the motorcycle next (though if I find the chassis for sale, I can assemble one since I spent all my dukes on the handlebars when they became available).  I just recently unlocked T3 quests (and met Bob in the desert).

 

So for me, the game does seem balanced right now based on where I am at.  And no, I haven't imposed any limits on myself to slow the game down.

[theFlu]

7 minutes ago, Slingblade2040 said:

This is supposed to be the gold release or whatever they want to call it

I'll still call it A22, if for nothing else, to do my part to protect TFP from kickstarter refunds for releasing an incomplete project... The balance seems rather standard for the earlier alphas, the first experimental is weird in all kinds of ways and some quick fixes happen; like the quest restriction changes, and damage immunity and whatnot in this iteration.

 

Day 8 sounds early, are you on long days? But regardless, yes, the balance is weird; and it's weird enough (I mean, damage immunity ffs) to not even be able to really predict what the target is... taking a kind guess, you're supposed to max out your first things around d28-35, but you can easily push that faster with things like biome modifiers and paper boy runs ...

[binf_shinana]

I'm a speed player who built an M60 by day 7 on Insane with 60 minutes per day, and upgraded my armor to quality 5, so I'm essentially disqualified from this discussion.

 

You have the freedom and right to hold out hope that there's still an update left.

 

And, The discussion will likely go something like this: sales figures are up, so vanilla definitely made the right changes, there's a problem with the way you play, if you don't like it, get a mod.

Edited July 18 by binf_shinana (see edit history)

[Slingblade2040]

1 hour ago, theFlu said:

I'll still call it A22, if for nothing else, to do my part to protect TFP from kickstarter refunds for releasing an incomplete project... The balance seems rather standard for the earlier alphas, the first experimental is weird in all kinds of ways and some quick fixes happen; like the quest restriction changes, and damage immunity and whatnot in this iteration.

 

Day 8 sounds early, are you on long days? But regardless, yes, the balance is weird; and it's weird enough (I mean, damage immunity ffs) to not even be able to really predict what the target is... taking a kind guess, you're supposed to max out your first things around d28-35, but you can easily push that faster with things like biome modifiers and paper boy runs ...

90 min days, warrior difficulty, no loot respawn, no air drops, zombies at jog during day, the tier progression is at 8 and all else is default.

 

All this is still in the forest biome so no crack a book stores. No double dipping the PoI aside from the mail box near the quest markers. 

 

Mail box looting is on the way to quest locations.

 

The main issue from what I've seen is the magazine bundle from quest rewards along with the insane amount of armor magazines and hammered up that show up when you max at the attribute and damage perk for said weapon.

 

Same nonsense happened when I went only tools. 

 

Im going to attempt this again with intelligence once I get tired of my current play through or an update breaks my world like 317 did to my previous one. 

[Kosmic Kerman]

If you got there without using daring adventurer and on 1 hour days, I’d be impressed. I’m usually still on iron melee weapons around day 14. On the other hand, if you perked into DA you shouldn’t be complaining about progression after pressing the skip progression button. Regardless only experienced veterans who are min/maxing can achieve the results you did on default settings by day 8. And that CANNOT be the measuring stick for progression. If it were everyone would have to play optimally to progress at a half-decent rate. 

8 minutes ago, Slingblade2040 said:

90 min days, warrior difficulty, no loot respawn, no air drops, zombies at jog during day, the tier progression is at 8 and all else is default.

 

All this is still in the forest biome so no crack a book stores. No double dipping the PoI aside from the mail box near the quest markers. 

 

Mail box looting is on the way to quest locations.

 

The main issue from what I've seen is the magazine bundle from quest rewards along with the insane amount of armor magazines and hammered up that show up when you max at the attribute and damage perk for said weapon.

 

Same nonsense happened when I went only tools. 

 

Im going to attempt this again with intelligence once I get tired of my current play through or an update breaks my world like 317 did to my previous one. 

Crafting skill progression needs to occur at reasonable rate for people who don’t max out melee perks right away. Otherwise everyone would need to focus entirely on melee perks for their weapon skills to advance. 

[theFlu]

2 hours ago, Kosmic Kerman said:

Otherwise everyone would need to focus entirely on melee perks for their weapon skills to advance. 

The way they're balancing it makes it a little weird. As I understand it, the skills won't add new books into the loot tables, only change "existing" ones towards the chosen skills. So, someone with no perks in melee books, will get 2-2-2-2-2 books across the melee weapons, while someone with high skill in one will get 1-1-1-1-6. If two books needs to be "reasonable progress", then tripling that will be .. rather fast.

 

I don't know what the balance "should" be, in TFPs opinion Or optimally, but that kind of difference is going to be hard to keep "reasonable". They kinda have to plan for the high-yields to be "default".

[OneManStanding]

For the most part, Trader rewards have been pretty measly for me and I'm up to Tier 4 quests ... which are stocked full of radiated zombies, meaning I've had to stop and make guns and ammo a priority sooner than I expected. But they have been selling some balance-breaking gear! Like, I'm perked into knives but for some reason have only made it as far as quality 2 hunting knives, when Jen sells me a Quality 5 Machette just the other day. I am also getting the option to buy steel tools.

 

I have enjoyed the longer lasting survival aspect, so unexpectedly getting not-to-be-missed equipment like this is a little bit game-breaking.

[RipClaw]

The problem is that balance is very subjective and you can easily throw off the balance by playing differently than the developers had in mind.

 

The only way to maintain the balance would be to either restrict the player so much that he can't play differently than intended or to constantly monitor all of the player's progress and adjust the environment accordingly. For example, the trader could only sell what you can craft anyway. However, this would mean that the game would have to check your progress before showing you the trader's inventory. Or you find too many armor magazines, then the game would have to adjust the loot so that you only find a certain amount of armor magazines per day.

 

Edited July 19 by RipClaw (see edit history)

[meganoth]

I think the problem slingblade saw happens when you put perk points very narrowly in only one or two perks. If instead you distribute your points into other magazine perks as well, for example to get vehicles and workstations through crafting, your general progress in your weapon of choice will be much slower. And I would assume most single players will do this.

 

I already complained about the IMHO too high perk bonuses half a year ago and TFP told me it needs to be so big so that players see a difference. I don't get this argument, balance seems more important to me. 

 

I would suggest (to TFP) that the higher perk levels get a diminishing bonus, so that players still feel an effect on the first perk point, but more points into a single perk will not let you find those magazines almost exclusively.

 

Hopefully more people post about unexpectedly rushed games so TFP notices.

 

Edited July 19 by meganoth (see edit history)

[BFT2020]

FYI

 

One thing you can do is to reduce the bonuses.  Right now it is set at 2,4,6,8,10 added to base.  Simply changing it to 1,2,3,4,5 would still make them drop more often, but the results would not be as skewed.

 

Same thing with the armor.

[Whorhay]

50% longer days and straight line min maxing for drops of a single skill book type isn't how a typical player will play. @%$#, I've been playing since A9 and I don't even try min maxing to that degree. Though I didn't realize that perking deeper into a skill would continue to skew the odds of getting that book past the first point, as the skill menu doesn't indicate that at all.

[Slingblade2040]

9 hours ago, Whorhay said:

50% longer days and straight line min maxing for drops of a single skill book type isn't how a typical player will play. @%$#, I've been playing since A9 and I don't even try min maxing to that degree. Though I didn't realize that perking deeper into a skill would continue to skew the odds of getting that book past the first point, as the skill menu doesn't indicate that at all.

Firstly nothing in the game indicates more magazine drops from perks or going into attributes that is something you have to look up online. All those perks say find more parts or tools/weapons in loot.

 

How is going for max attributes to get max damage min maxing. It would be no different if someone focuses on a strength build or agility build. You go for max attributes and if a perk says more damage and parts obviously most folks would go for it.

 

Hell you could remove the longer days and it still holds true. Most new players want to do more damage to kill enemies faster or in 1 shot. All they see are attributes mean more damage and perks say do more damage. 

 

You playing since alpha 9 doesn't mean much since the game is drastically different since then and the skill tree isn't the same. 

[binf_shinana]

I can understand Slingblade's point of view very well. I want to respect it.
However, if you say "players who try to play efficiently must be in the minority," I won't have anything to say, so I'll keep quiet from here on out.

[BFT2020]

33 minutes ago, Slingblade2040 said:

Firstly nothing in the game indicates more magazine drops from perks or going into attributes that is something you have to look up online. All those perks say find more parts or tools/weapons in loot.

 

Yep nothing in the game indicates higher magazine drops....

 

 

Oh wait.......

[theFlu]

2 hours ago, Slingblade2040 said:

How is going for max attributes to get max damage min maxing.

I mean, isn't that the definition..?

[Slingblade2040]

5 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

 

Yep nothing in the game indicates higher magazine drops....

 

 

Oh wait.......

Well ya got me there I didn't even notice that since it wasn't in the attributes or perks.  

4 hours ago, theFlu said:

I mean, isn't that the definition..?

No? Always figured min maxing was what folks did by putting 1 point into lock picking to boost its odds to get forge ahead magazines faster and then ignoring it since it's a useless perk or using the nerf outfit to boost chance for extra skills to get magazine points faster.  Since that outfit isn't necessary aside to get points faster. 

[avalonnn]

I agree that INT focus to level 10 get level 5 Daring Adventurer in order to choose 2 rewards is still the way to go (perhaps after leveling all stats to 3 and taking one point in each of the weapons and any tool skills you need). But I am enjoying it. My weapons are above my crafting level for the most part, except that I did craft a level 6 SMG. 

[theFlu]

2 hours ago, Slingblade2040 said:

Always figured min maxing was what folks did by <snip>

The goals are different, but you know, "they" are minmaxing for books, you're minmaxing for damage.. I go for damage too as prio, so nothing wrong with that. Also nothing wrong with swapping people and specs etc during and within a wow raid; as long as everyone wants to do it, go for it. I used to be a casual way back when, and would seriously doubt the sanity of such raids. Nowadays, I could see myself willingly being a part of one and enjoying sitting out and playing the swap-in specialist or whatnot.

 

I find min maxing being the default in a way - you can't expect people "not doing their best" .. and if min maxing breaks a game, it's a poorly balanced game - it can still be fun and a great game overall (like 7dtd for the most part), but as a Game it's an indication of a design flaw.

Edited July 20 by theFlu (see edit history)

[Riamus]

I think everyone has different views of what min/maxing means.  To me, it is doing whatever you can to progress as quickly as you can with as little effort as possible in something (damage, magazines, completing the game, etc).  Putting points into something for the sole purpose of getting magazines faster would qualify to me.  Swapping armor based on what you are doing to get the best bonuses for everything would qualify.  Going to the wasteland right away and looting cars on the road where it is relatively safe in order to get really good equipment really early in the game would qualify.  But that is just how I view it.

 

In my case, rushing quests to compete tier 1 so I can get a bicycle since I hate wasting time running everywhere also qualifies.  😀

Edited July 21 by Riamus (see edit history)

[Whorhay]

I think everyone min maxes to some degree unless they are deliberately trying to not do so. What I was saying is that I doubt that most new players would restrict their skill point spend to a single attribute and a single weapon perk within that attribute. And then farm quests to such a degree that they will max out that weapon's magazine rank in a week or two. There is a lot more to the game than just killing zombies efficiently, and the temptation to spend points elsewhere for more utility, I would wager, causes points to be more spread.

[meganoth]

8 hours ago, Whorhay said:

I think everyone min maxes to some degree unless they are deliberately trying to not do so. What I was saying is that I doubt that most new players would restrict their skill point spend to a single attribute and a single weapon perk within that attribute. And then farm quests to such a degree that they will max out that weapon's magazine rank in a week or two. There is a lot more to the game than just killing zombies efficiently, and the temptation to spend points elsewhere for more utility, I would wager, causes points to be more spread.

 

You are correct, many new players will do that. But everyone ticks differently and there are surely some who (after experiences with other games) think damage trumps everything else, and they will predominantly put points into their weapon.

Also if they don't read the information in the game carefully (like most new players, it was a known problem that new players don't read the journal) it will be just chance whether the perks they choose will have a magazine attached or not.

 

In other words, it will be just random whether new players get a balanced game or can craft a tier3 weapon early in game without knowing what happened and if they protest about the balance get accused of min-maxing

 

--------

 

Generally to the topic:

Now when we talk about veteran players and minmaxing, I agree with some here that it is a rather weak defense. Balancing usually should lead to lesser opportunities to min-max. By definition. At least according to wikipedia, which makes a fair try to define it, read the chapter about Meaningful Decisions

 

 

Edited July 21 by meganoth (see edit history)

[TWORDY]

I would rather have the opportunity to drop more magazines, and more at random. Right now I may narrow the scope of magazines by just avoiding opening other magazines, avoiding certain actions, limiting myself from certain perking, or using only a specific item. More magazines might be purchasable at Trader also for the future. Right now I have a a strong feeling of a deliberate evasion of any in-game algorithms to maximize my character early. I wouldn`t say it is a great system as it is currently implemented.

[Scyris]

On 7/19/2024 at 10:44 PM, Whorhay said:

50% longer days and straight line min maxing for drops of a single skill book type isn't how a typical player will play. @%$#, I've been playing since A9 and I don't even try min maxing to that degree. Though I didn't realize that perking deeper into a skill would continue to skew the odds of getting that book past the first point, as the skill menu doesn't indicate that at all.

 

Sadly with the whole stupid learn by reading system your basically forced to invest in stats your not intersted in to get perks with very little use just to force magazine spawns. Like people take grease monkey and its like.. why? second you build a vehicle the perk serves no more purpose, it needs to have a extra bonus, maybe reduced vehicle damage taken, or reduced fuel use, just something besides just "more magazines". granted I feel the stat system needs to go in the damn garbage can and be redone.

 

Maybe a 3 stat system instead

 

Combat, Survival, Utility. Combat has all the weapons in it, survival has stuff like stealth (but not sneak attack dmg thats combat), master chef, the physican perk etc, while utility has stuff like grease monkey, miner69'er/motherload, lockpicking etc in it. You do not need the same amount of perks in each stat, you just need the right ones in each stat. I basically never invest in intel as I find most of its perks useless, and the one perk I do want (Physician) has to high of a investment for just one perk I want. Stats also need to do things other than just headshot damage and dismember chance I mean have them do those 2 things and something extra. Str could be melee or block damage or both, Perception ups ranged weapon damage, Agility could up movement speed by 2% per stat to help offset armor penalties a bit more.

 

The stat system could be much better if they'd put in a bit of thought to improve it.

 

Another way is give each of the 4 armor slots a special "stat mod" slot, that only the +1 stat mods can go into, so you can get a possible +4 to one stat, would be perfect for str, since you can just use that gear, stack +4 str and get miner69'er/motherload to 4/5 Though we'd need a secondary +1 str mod than just cigar so you cannot quad stack those.

[Scyris]

On 7/21/2024 at 6:18 AM, meganoth said:

 

You are correct, many new players will do that. But everyone ticks differently and there are surely some who (after experiences with other games) think damage trumps everything else, and they will predominantly put points into their weapon.

Also if they don't read the information in the game carefully (like most new players, it was a known problem that new players don't read the journal) it will be just chance whether the perks they choose will have a magazine attached or not.

 

In other words, it will be just random whether new players get a balanced game or can craft a tier3 weapon early in game without knowing what happened and if they protest about the balance get accused of min-maxing

 

--------

 

Generally to the topic:

Now when we talk about veteran players and minmaxing, I agree with some here that it is a rather weak defense. Balancing usually should lead to lesser opportunities to min-max. By definition. At least according to wikipedia, which makes a fair try to define it, read the chapter about Meaningful Decisions

 

 

 

Yeah but the current stat system and learn by reading system basically forces you into certain stats if you wanna be able to make things. I'd care less if they'd decouple weapons from stats and make weapon/tools its own 6th stat that has headshot/dismember chance and all weapons and tools in it, quite a few of the perks are also in stats that make little sense for it to be there in the first place. If you ask me all melee weapons and tools should be in str, and all ranged weapons should be in perception. While the other perks in those lines get spread out to other stats.

 

Or just go with the 3 stat system I suggested, it'd be perfect and pretty much solve all the problems the current stat system has. Best thing is it'd be easy to implement since its just changing the stat names, and moving perks around in the xmls. Ideally though I want learn by doing for weapons and mining tools and have headshot/dismember chance govered by the action skill (as well as a damage bonus at certain breakpoints) as well as it governs what level of say pummel pete you can get.

 

I don't know about you, but its extremly annoying having to spend points in a stat when you only want ONE perk in that stat line, its basically a waste of skill points at that point. ANother way to fix it, is have the player gain stat points, as well as skill points every level, each stat takes X stat points to raise by 1. Once you max out all the stats by lv 100+ you can turn say, a few stat points into a skill point.

Edited July 24 by Scyris (see edit history)