(UPDATED) Why I don't like "Learning by Reading"

[Unamelable]

1 hour ago, FramFramson said:

I don't really hold this against the devs very much because they do allow us the thing single most important thing a game dev can do these days: Allow us to mod the game.

And throw Steam Workshop support to the end of Q4 2025. Yeaaaaa

[Unamelable]

1 hour ago, FramFramson said:

I don't really hold this against the devs very much because they do allow us the thing single most important thing a game dev can do these days: Allow us to mod the game.

 

It really is impossible to please all players. Some complaints will be silly or small, and some will be big or legitimate, but may involve a different philosophy about how the game "should" be played. Modding the game allows us to tailor our experiences to what we want more precisely, instead of desperately hoping some random employee will do what we, a random individual customer, wants. Any game that leaves you mostly at the mercy of a corporation has a very high chance of disappointing and frustrating players, often to the point where the game is intolerable.

 

The freedom and agency to fix our own problems seems like "lazy" development, but no, it's one of the the most important things a game's developers can give to players. It also requires work for the game to accommodate it - the true "lazy" option is not putting in code to enable mods in the first place.

 

I will say that of all the games I've played. Only 7DTD made my ass burn.

 

• I've played Minecraft for countless hours, I was happy with everything there BEFORE 1.16.5

 

• I played Raft when it was in alpha. And I played the full release. The game has really been finalized and it has enough content. The game from 2016 to release in 2022 was able to overhaul the visuals, gameplay. And on release had a story. This is the best example to show how the developers made a WORKABLE survival game that hasn't required development since 2013.

 

• I played The Forest when it was also in development. And it too made it to release and works adequately. With the full spectrum of visual achievement.

 

• Don't Strave is a great example as well It has a unique setting and style that makes it feel fresh to this day. And it has everything from survival, it didn't need to add RPG component to destroy the core gameplay

 

• The Long Dark is a great representation of the winter apocalypse. And it was in active development too, but had more goals and mechanics, and better than the current 7DTD

 

• Unturned has a wonderful foundation that has been polished over the years and now has an active following from players because it can be run on a toaster, and there are an infinite number of curated maps. And open modding. With the Steam Workshop that was there in the first place

 

• Project Zomboid is a zombie survivalist APOGUE with a unique setting and total immersion in ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE. What's more, it has Steam Workshop. Which is naturally not in 7DTD for 10 years.

 

• Palworld also has a lot of similarity with the survival genre. And it works almost perfectly. Although the game is also created from a random indie studio. And has an elaborate RPG element that is technically stretched too. But it doesn't evoke the same kind of revulsion as 7 days to Die. The game didn't need to go into early access to gather feedback from players. They knew what they were doing in the first place. And nurtured the idea to the very end, and even if it has a few flaws. It's three heads higher than a lot of AAA projects in terms of thoughtfulness. I really enjoyed playing it all the way through to the end, and I want more.

 

If I compare all these games to it. 7DTD can't beat any of these games in terms of gameplay. Because it's stuck in 2013 when it's still looking for a direction to go. And the developers wrote on the roadmap that plans can change. So they still haven't figured out what to improve or add. Because of that a lot of things are made on a quarter, or half working.

 

Of all the games I've listed, NONE of them have caused me such a wildly negative reaction as 7 days to die. But because of the concept is successful it draws me in, but apart from the concept there is nothing @%$#ing in the game. That's why I'm writing that it @%$#es me off, but I love this game.

 

Seriously I have no idea how TFP's work, do they even have an original intent? Did they even get together with all the developers in one group to discuss what their game was about? Because as a player I don't understand why it has so much, but the quality of the implementation of it all is at alpha testing level. I could give the example of Yandere Simulator which might fit the example of 7DTD, but let's be honest that there is one weaboo from 4chan and he is far from the best character to develop games through if; else. What we have here is a TEAM that consists of several YandereDevs who have no idea what they are doing.

 

I have explained it logically and I may be far wrong, but I as a player see the situation from this point of view. Maybe the developers have a plan, but it's so vague that I don't see it at all.

 

I'd be very happy to discuss what I'm wrong about personally, because I have so many questions I haven't asked in any game I've sat through so much.

Edited May 16 by Unamelable (see edit history)

[Unamelable]

20 minutes ago, Unamelable said:

It really is impossible to please all players. Some complaints will be silly or small, and some will be big or legitimate, but may involve a different philosophy about how the game "should" be played

 

Apparently the game is forcibly forcing me to call out friends who turn me down (yes I have called them out). To make me play co-op, because the game is 100% not designed for Solo which is a big miscalculation. I played the game on vanilla settings. Now of course I know how everything works there and I can safely customize everything for myself, but I when I go into the game I want to play the game. I do not even know its basics, the point of me to change the settings if I do not reach the end with the settings that the developers have made standard. My first experience in Project Zomboid was with the difficulty mode "builder" as I immediately understood what the game is about after a few videos. And I was able to immediately understand the style of my game with only one difficulty setting. First - in 7DTD this difficulty does not write anything. Moreover, you can't save the settings there, that's the second thing.

 

 

Let's assume the situation that I bought the game. Recently. I logged into it. I create a world. What do I know about the game?

• I watched one youtuber's video, looks like fun. It's kind of cool to go with friends. I don't have any friends, I'm going solo. What do I see when I create the world?
• PREGEN maps are maps that you should include when you already know the basics of the game. This one doesn't work for me. The new random world doesn't work for me either. Navezgane, a map that was created by the developers. Which is designed for newbies, right? I have to start here.
• The difficulty level doesn't tell me anything, no information is written there. I'll leave it as it is.
• Cofficient experience, high. I'm playing solo, the game is meant for co-op. I'll work for four people.
• Blood moon frequency, sounds scary. I won't turn it on just yet. I want to learn the basics of the game right?
• Zombie speed, I'll leave it as is. I haven't seen zombie behavior yet.
• Cargo dump, is there an airdrop? Hopefully there will be guns in there - (Experience with Unturned)
• Player block damage, hopefully this doesn't affect anything. I'll leave it as it is.
• AI block damage, I'll leave it that way.
• Abundant prey, I'll leave it at that
• Death losses, I'm apparently going to be dying a lot. I won't lose any loot.
• Wait, where do you customize the number of zombies? I don't see that setting.
• Where I can save my preset. Nowhere?
• (Experience from Project Zomboid). Doesn't the sandbox game have advanced settings?
• Since when are there three zombies in the world? Is it definitely a zombie game? (Based on Left 4 Dead/Project Zomboid/Unturned).
• Since when does upgrading one block cost 10 cobblestones? (Based on Minecraft/Palworld).
• In order to customize the configuration I need to download XML files from Nexus? Are you kidding me? (Lack of Steam Workshop)
• I set experience gain to 300%, why haven't I unlocked two skill branches yet!? (Progress middle, almost end-game).
• These magazines are driving me crazy (Poor Learning by Reading balance)

 

I could go on and on writing further about how my experience with this particular game turned out. It shouldn't have so many confusions every other step of the way.

[meganoth]

As a new player I tend to play a game at mostly default settings first and see how it goes. Then I play the game and HAVE FUN discovering the secrets of that game. Because that is the best time when you don't know everything about a game and need to find out stuff.

 

I never watch videos that tell me how it is played. I don't want to know everything and for example when I don't find a crucial item for a while I make an effort to find it instead of simply searching the net for the solution.

 

An option needs to be fully understood only if you can't change it inbetween or the game has no replay value. If not, then people should learn that they should not change options when they don't know what the result will be. The default setting of on option is there for a reason. Why people immediately set 300% experience in their first playthrough is a mystery to me. Don't expect a balanced gameplay if you randomly set options.

 

7 hours ago, Unamelable said:

I won't turn it on just yet. I want to learn the basics of the game right?

 

And you say it yourself. You want to learn the basics. So why this artificial outrage at some settings where you don't understand what it will do in gameplay?

 

7 hours ago, Unamelable said:

In order to customize the configuration I need to download XML files from Nexus? Are you kidding me? (Lack of Steam Workshop)

 

No. The config is right there in the game. Everything you need nexus for is if you have a very narrow idea of the game and it must conform to it or you want it to be everything that the 5 games you like the best are. Or once you have played the game a few times and know its secrets and want to customize it further.

 

You rail against TFP having RPG elements. Your favourite games don't have that. Hint1: That is why they are your favourite games and games with RPG elements are collecting dust in your game collection. Hint2: There are other players who like the RPG elements in this game and there need to be games that scratch the itch of those players as well. Just because you like survival, not every survival game needs to be exactly for you.

 

I played Minecraft and Don't starve both for a few hours and then dropped them because they were just not my cup of tea. I didn't tell everyone that the games are bad and need to change almost in everything to conform to my tastes. I just dropped them.

I am not saying you should not critizise what is wrong with this game (there is stuff that is far from excellent in this game), but you should not expect this game to transform into for example a 100% survival game. This is just not in the cards.

 

7 hours ago, Unamelable said:

Since when does upgrading one block cost 10 cobblestones? (Based on Minecraft/Palworld).

 

Huh? Because some other games have specific ratios in their recipes this game needs the same? I should not need to tell you that such ratios are only important for balancing and every game can have or even needs different ratios depending on their setup.

 

Example: If 10 seconds of digging gives me in effect 100 cobblestones then one block might cost 10 cobbelstones. If 10 seconds of digging gives me in effect 10 cobblestones then one block might cost 1 cobblestone. There is practically no difference to the player. Only to the game designer because there might be other recipes with 0.5 cobblestones in the latter case which would not be possible to implement.

 

7 hours ago, Unamelable said:

I played Raft when it was in alpha. And I played the full release. The game has really been finalized and it has enough content. The game from 2016 to release in 2022 was able to overhaul the visuals, gameplay. And on release had a story. This is the best example to show how the developers made a WORKABLE survival game that hasn't required development since 2013.

 

A game without steam workshop support. To change it you need to download mods from some other site it seems ( https://steamcommunity.com/app/648800/discussions/4/5788831477032535262/) . So exactly why is this such a good game without that support, but 7d2d absolutely needs steam workshop and it needs it now, not in Q4/25.

 

And don't tell me "because I need to mod only 7d2d to conform to my tastes, not Raft". That is likely because of your tastes being different than the tastes of the 7d2d developers but conform very much to the tastes of the raft developers. I for example play 7d2d single player unmodded.

 

7 hours ago, Unamelable said:

To make me play co-op, because the game is 100% not designed for Solo which is a big miscalculation

 

Please show me why. Not with throwing out your specific likes which obviously are often incompatible with what the designers of the game wanted, but with an average player who doesn't detest RPG games. How does it prevent him from playing the game in single player?

 

If you look at attributes like "perception" not as attributes of your character but as character classes or specializations which you can easily multiclass then it becomes obvious that it is neither necessary nor expected to have every attribute and perk at max. You should not fear the perk system because it is unusual, you should ask what you can do with it. And the game has enough leeway to allow you to specialize even as a single player OR having knowledge of all at a cost.

 

 

7 hours ago, Unamelable said:

Because it's stuck in 2013 when it's still looking for a direction to go. And the developers wrote on the roadmap that plans can change. So they still haven't figured out what to improve or add.

 

Whoah, that is a rant, not logical reasoning. Later changes don't mean you don't have a plan. 

 

Plans always can change. When I build something (hardware or software) I often have a very specific plan and everything is working in my head. Then I test it and I notice that something is not working or could be better if I did it differently. If you expect more from humans you should not read so many superhero comics 😉. And in the case of a games developer in EA there is also a community of players that may induce unexpected changes. If they didn't listen to players and occasionally changed their plans because of feedback you would complain as well, right?

 

I am sure their plan was very sketchy in 2013 but you can look at the kickstarter to see how their vision was.

For example the title already says "blending the best elements of FPS, Survival Horror, Tower Defense and Role Playing Games" even though RPG elements did not exist in the game before A12(?). That a lot of the details changed over the years is surely a result of them embracing Early Access and doing a lot of experimentation. But it is clearly evident that for the last years there is less and less experimentation and more refinement going on, to get at something that is fun for them to play.

 

So for example if you think you can turn them away of RPG elements with your overly broad statements aka "unplayable,...,hate this and that", forget it, it was their original plan 13 years ago that there were RPG elements in the game and voila, there they are and they are here to stay.

 

 

Generally: Sure, I am not satisfied with some of the balance of the game, notably the trader, the trader and also the trader. I don't expect the trader and the quests to vanish, but I expect that they rebalance the trader downwards or make it possible to reign in the influence through options.

 

 

Edited May 16 by meganoth (see edit history)

[zztong]

2 hours ago, Unamelable said:

Raft ... This is the best example to show how the developers made a WORKABLE survival game that hasn't required development since 2013.

 

Yeesh, I have no love for Raft. I'd say that's a horrible example of a survival system. I did not enjoy that game at all. But that's just my opinion. I had several friends play and like Raft. They were really into the puzzles, not the survival. I'd keep the raft floating, harvest the food and water, fight the shark, and they'd flitter about the islands progressing the story.

 

I'd rate The Forest and Minecraft as equal to 7D2D for survival. They're very similar.

 

Project Zomboid looks like fun. I've watched @NotOnly25 play it and so far that has satisfied me.

 

The Long Dark has potential. It certainly took survival seriously, but has other issues. I want very much to like it, but it hasn't captured my interest. I don't think I've launched it in years.

 

Palworld, Don't Starve, and Unturned don't look appealing, so I don't have any interest in trying them.

 

I guess what I'm getting here is there's no accounting for tastes. I do admire the passion you bring to your arguments. I kind of cringe at phrases like "total disaster" as I wonder if folks just skip reading them thinking "that will just be another rant." I kind of translate the current topic into "I don't care for Learning by Reading."

[Unamelable]

28 minutes ago, zztong said:

I guess what I'm getting here is there's no accounting for tastes. I do admire the passion you bring to your arguments. I kind of cringe at phrases like "total disaster" as I wonder if folks just skip reading them thinking "that will just be another rant." I kind of translate the current topic into "I don't care for Learning by Reading."

 

If after 80 hours I only find out that finding up magazines to the maximum level is completely worthless. Because random items have a higher level than crafted ones. Then why find these magazines if there is no point in it. If this was an additional reward for luck, then this is complete idiocy.

 

Plus, if the game closes content for me through magazines. I have to find them to beat the game, is it logical? If the game is intended to “level up first branch of skills and then abandon the save,” then this is wrong. Simply because there is no final goal in the game, and when you don’t have reasonable goals. do you level up your character logically? And if this leveling is physically impossible, then it turns into some kind of clownery where I look for magazines like a junkie

 

Remember the situation with Diablo. Only 7DTD has softened corners and no donation. For now.

Edited May 16 by Unamelable (see edit history)

[BFT2020]

6 hours ago, Unamelable said:

 

Hey guys, i fixed traiders!

https://www.nexusmods.com/7daystodie/mods/3282?tab=description

I really don't like that the developers want to force an RPG forcibly thereby making the gameplay terrible. 

 

That's one way to address traders if you don't like them how they interact in the world today.  I took a slightly different route:

 

One removes trader rewards, but treats the quests as jobs they are paying you to do.

 

Another limits the quality level of what you can get from them.

 

I use a form of the first one in my games, and the second one was created based on discussions others had about the traders.

 

Everyone has a different idea on how the traders can be "fixed".  TFP did a good job on making it so we can try our own ideas out  😏

 

[beerfly]

3 hours ago, Unamelable said:

.... because the game is 100% not designed for Solo which is a big miscalculation.

Got around 3k hours solo and around 2.3k in multiplayer. I think it is pretty good calculated. Also balance is still a thing till everything is added, till gold.

[Unamelable]

5 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

Everyone has a different idea on how the traders can be "fixed".  TFP did a good job on making it so we can try our own ideas out  😏

 

I see this as carelessness towards the final balance, which is why players have to come up with fixes because of this attitude. It's more of a collective rejection

[Unamelable]

Gonna stfu for now, i said everything I wanted to say. 

[Unamelable]

To be fair when you see @%$# like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYtN3wRJ2M0

 

 

 

You wanna smoke 2 packs of cigs and play: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoKluzn07eQ

 

 

Its not related to 7DTD but im glad I don't follow any of the new stuff. And I can watch this burning nonsense without feeling guilty.

I'm in about the same mood because there is hell going on in my country that there is hell going on in the internet. It's very hard to be positive about it and not get annoyed with every hangnail.

[meganoth]

4 hours ago, Unamelable said:

If after 80 hours I only find out that finding up magazines to the maximum level is completely worthless. Because random items have a higher level than crafted ones. Then why find these magazines if there is no point in it. If this was an additional reward for luck, then this is complete idiocy.

 

The game has information in the journal, in item descriptions, in perk and magazine descriptions. And you yourself should have noticed very fast that the game has multiple sources for almost everything:

 

Need a better weapon? There are 4 ways to get one (trader rewards, trader buy, loot or craft) and your success does not depend on which way you get the weapon. Need building materials? There are 4 ways to get building materials (reward,buy,mining,wrenching). Need ammo? There are again multiple ways to get ammo or the materials for ammo.

 

4 hours ago, Unamelable said:

Plus, if the game closes content for me through magazines. I have to find them to beat the game, is it logical? If the game is intended to “level up first branch of skills and then abandon the save,” then this is wrong. Simply because there is no final goal in the game, and when you don’t have reasonable goals. do you level up your character logically? And if this leveling is physically impossible, then it turns into some kind of clownery where I look for magazines like a junkie

 

How about giving an example. What is physically impossible here? There are multiple ways to get almost anything and there are multiple ways to survive the game for hundreds of hours. I don't see anything that depends on getting to the last magazines in any magazine series. And there is not a single book that is mandatory. 

 

 

[8_Hussars]

8 hours ago, Unamelable said:

 

I will say that of all the games I've played. Only 7DTD made my ass burn.

 

 

I'd be very happy to discuss what I'm wrong about personally, because I have so many questions I haven't asked in any game I've sat through so much.

Unfortunately, you consistently look at the game through a personal min/maxing completionist lens and fail to appreciate that other players play the game differently with different expectations and perceptions.  Many things you see as issues or wrong with the game, are exactly the things some players look for.
 

• I've played Minecraft for countless hours, I was happy with everything there BEFORE 1.16.5

7d2d is Minecraft for adults.

• I played Raft when it was in alpha. And I played the full release. The game has really been finalized and it has enough content. The game from 2016 to release in 2022 was able to overhaul the visuals, gameplay. And on release had a story. This is the best example to show how the developers made a WORKABLE survival game that hasn't required development since 2013.

Open world sand box has different requirements.  The overall "world" needs to have a story but a linear story with an ending is not required.

• I played The Forest when it was also in development. And it too made it to release and works adequately. With the full spectrum of visual achievement.

Oh god, that open inventory tarp was assine and tedious.

• The Long Dark is a great representation of the winter apocalypse. And it was in active development too, but had more goals and mechanics, and better than the current 7DTD

Boring and Tedious,  light fire, get warm.  Evade wolf, light fire, get warm.  Loot empty containers for trinkets, light fire, evade wolf, get warm.   Die to bear, start over.

• Project Zomboid is a zombie survivalist APOGUE with a unique setting and total immersion in ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE.

Tedious and Boring.  It certainly has in depth inventory micro-management systems and micro-managed health and survival systems for those that love the intricacies (you can role play smoking a cigarette, big whoop).  Kite zombies, kill, kite zombies, kill.  Wash face, Kite zombies, kill.  Not fun, especially with that 1980's 3rd person overview.

• Palworld also has a lot of similarity with the survival genre. And it works almost perfectly. Although the game is also created from a random indie studio. And has an elaborate RPG element that is technically stretched too. But it doesn't evoke the same kind of revulsion as 7 days to Die. The game didn't need to go into early access to gather feedback from players. They knew what they were doing in the first place. And nurtured the idea to the very end, and even if it has a few flaws. It's three heads higher than a lot of AAA projects in terms of thoughtfulness. I really enjoyed playing it all the way through to the end, and I want more.

Have you played it since you "finished" it?  Does anyone play this game any more?  (Along with nightingale and Enshrouded?)  There is no replayability in any of these games. 
 

[zztong]

8 hours ago, Unamelable said:

If after 80 hours I only find out that finding up magazines to the maximum level is completely worthless. Because random items have a higher level than crafted ones. Then why find these magazines if there is no point in it. If this was an additional reward for luck, then this is complete idiocy.

 

I guessing this would be for weapons and armor -- at least that's where I observe this issue. I'm typically taking those Perks to get the advantages related to stamina or mobility, not the magazines. As you and @meganoth both have said, you can get the equipment in other ways. I look upon those magazines as a "floor." I will eventually be able to craft a Tier 5 if I don't get one through another means. I take the magazines as they come and I'm happy. In other areas of crafting, such as farming or cooking, the magazines work really well. This is far from "complete idiocy." Rather, I'd say A21 is the first exposure and it is likely to be tweaked and adjusted.

 

I've been playing a "traderless" game, where I remove the traders from the map before play. That really slows the game down and the crafting/magazines have been kind of cool. It's a slow progression. My sense is you're after a very fast progression, so you're probably not into that variant.

[Roland]

2 hours ago, zztong said:

My sense is you're after a very fast progression, so you're probably not into that variant.

 

This doesn't make you a Jedi by any means ZZ...

[zztong]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

This doesn't make you a Jedi by any means ZZ...

 

Happens to every guy sometimes this does.

[Unamelable]

4 hours ago, zztong said:

 

I guessing this would be for weapons and armor -- at least that's where I observe this issue. I'm typically taking those Perks to get the advantages related to stamina or mobility, not the magazines. As you and @meganoth both have said, you can get the equipment in other ways. I look upon those magazines as a "floor." I will eventually be able to craft a Tier 5 if I don't get one through another means. I take the magazines as they come and I'm happy. In other areas of crafting, such as farming or cooking, the magazines work really well. This is far from "complete idiocy." Rather, I'd say A21 is the first exposure and it is likely to be tweaked and adjusted.

 

I've been playing a "traderless" game, where I remove the traders from the map before play. That really slows the game down and the crafting/magazines have been kind of cool. It's a slow progression. My sense is you're after a very fast progression, so you're probably not into that variant.

 

I guess if trades wasn't spawned at first. I had complete different expirience with the game. Because he's balance was busted, that actually give high-end rewards by passing very boring quests. Because again - looting POI's without quest is kind of pointless.

 

Its like two bath's. One with cold water and second with hot. And you like jumping from first to second every time

 

Again I have 1k+ hours in Project Zomboid, and I did not feel that there is such a miscalculation there since the whole balance was uniformly slow. There was no "trader" to give me end-game level rewards.

[MechanicalLens]

14 hours ago, beerfly said:

Got around 3k hours solo and around 2.3k in multiplayer. I think it is pretty good calculated. Also balance is still a thing till everything is added, till gold.

 

7.5k hours here in about 6 years, that's over 1k hours per alpha cycle, 99% of that is in singleplayer. I don't claim to be the be-all-end-all measuring stick, but I also think the game is doing quite well catering towards the singleplayer crowd.

 

I saw a post on the subreddit recently where someone couldn't understand how people find vanilla enjoyable after a hundred hours, and all they've played since are overhaul mods. About 7k of my hours are in vanilla. TL;DR: Your experience isn't everyone else's. You don't have to understand it, just accept it as fact. 😛

[Unamelable]

1 hour ago, MechanicalLens said:

 

7.5k hours here in about 6 years, that's over 1k hours per alpha cycle, 99% of that is in singleplayer. I don't claim to be the be-all-end-all measuring stick, but I also think the game is doing quite well catering towards the singleplayer crowd.

 

I saw a post on the subreddit recently where someone couldn't understand how people find vanilla enjoyable after a hundred hours, and all they've played since are overhaul mods. About 7k of my hours are in vanilla. TL;DR: Your experience isn't everyone else's. You don't have to understand it, just accept it as fact. 😛

 

If there a plenty of people typing about bad vanila - maybe its a real problem then. Idk about your tastes, but im pretty sure you have own opinion what's in "this alpha" is missing/need to be fixed/need to be balanced and etc. From my perspective - almost 75-80% of game design for me needed to be changed through xml files. Or i could just download overhaul mods like undead legacy

 

And funny part about that, i did everything right. Last update on this mod was in A20. And when i tried to launch it. It just crashes, like i have exact version that mod is needed. Im trying to do RWG world. And game just gives up. I guess old mods are unplayable?

[zztong]

6 hours ago, Unamelable said:

And funny part about that, i did everything right. Last update on this mod was in A20. And when i tried to launch it. It just crashes, like i have exact version that mod is needed. Im trying to do RWG world. And game just gives up. I guess old mods are unplayable?

 

Correct, you cannot use an A20 mod with A21. The ModInfo.xml format changed and that has to be updated. After that, the detailed changes within the Mod may, or may not, work depending on what they were trying to do.

 

7 hours ago, MechanicalLens said:

7.5k hours here in about 6 years, that's over 1k hours per alpha cycle, 99% of that is in singleplayer. I don't claim to be the be-all-end-all measuring stick, but I also think the game is doing quite well catering towards the singleplayer crowd.

 

I agree with this. I'm over 4k hours now having started largely with A19. Mostly-vanilla is my preferred way to play, but purely Vanilla is fine too. I think it does well in the small-team arena too. That is, if I watch something on Twitch, it is often a few friends playing Vanilla with, or without Twitch integration. Part of that is my self-selection as I don't know the Overhauls very well so I don't tend to watch people play them.

 

9 hours ago, Unamelable said:

Because again - looting POI's without quest is kind of pointless.

 

I can agree with this, to a point. Traders definitely have a measurable and significant impact on game play. They're also a bottleneck on a couple of technologies (water filter). They're also (as of A21) a relief valve when it comes to acquiring a cooking pot and grill. Quests let you earn more faster because the trader gives you both Dukes and a reward. If you're on a server, you may face a situation where all of the POIs have been looted and you might need the Quest to be able to reset the POI.

 

But raiding a POI isn't pointless because you will still get POI loot and still have the option for salvage. If you take away traders, it is the game.

 

6 hours ago, Unamelable said:

If there a plenty of people typing about bad vanila - maybe its a real problem then.

 

You can see how this statement isn't really actionable or influential, right? It contains opinion, not data. "Plenty of people" is your impression based on what you read, possibly influenced by confirmation bias. Everyone will assume "the silent majority" is on their side. That is, your opposition will say "Plenty of people are happily playing Vanilla." The only folks who have a chance to really know is the Devs as they can see the stats.

 

But I'm not saying "shutup and sit down." The forums exist for discussion. Sometimes the words of individuals, like you, like me, find their way through all the voices and resonate with a Dev. Shouting louder isn't the key to being heard.

[Kosmic Kerman]

9 hours ago, Unamelable said:

 

If there a plenty of people typing about bad vanila - maybe its a real problem then. Idk about your tastes, but im pretty sure you have own opinion what's in "this alpha" is missing/need to be fixed/need to be balanced and etc. From my perspective - almost 75-80% of game design for me needed to be changed through xml files. Or i could just download overhaul mods like undead legacy

 

You not liking something doesn't mean its bad. Other people not liking something doesn't mean its bad. You can't please everyone--nor should you. And you don't have to take my word for it. Below is a video from Tim Cain, the producer of the first Fallout game and the co-director of Outerworlds, discussing this topic. 

 

There's nothing wrong with offering constructive criticism. But that is not what you are doing. You are repeatedly claiming that the game is poorly designed because you don't like the choices the devs made. Sometimes a game just isn't for you.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 17 by Kosmic Kerman (see edit history)

[8_Hussars]

10 hours ago, Unamelable said:

 

 Or i could just download overhaul mods like undead legacy

 

I concur, UL would be the perfect choice for your next play though... 😉 

[Roland]

22 hours ago, Unamelable said:

From my perspective - almost 75-80% of game design for me needed to be changed through xml files.

 

This is a clear indication that the game is just not what you like. I don't enjoy RTS games. Their design is about 75-80% distasteful to me and I never spend money on them. When a game is 75-80% unpleasant, that isn't a simple situation of fix a few things and you're good. 1.0 is dropping very soon and the devs aren't going to be changing 75-80% of the game into something different than it already is. Maybe an overhaul mod can save the game for you but most of them haven't been created to to speed up progression any faster than the vanilla game. They make the progression deeper and more complex but not really faster. I'd say most fans of this game enjoy a longer lasting progression than you do and that includes most of the fans who know how to mod and are creating mods.

 

I get it. You like open world survival games with a heavy dose of sandbox gameplay and this game looked like it fit the bill but when you got into playing it you realized it had too much RPG-ness and random factors that remove control of the progression pacing from the player and you hate that. It wasn't something you were expecting. And to make matters worse, there weren't enough options in the top menu to configure the game more to the way you would enjoy it.  If I bought this game and it had a ton of RTS gameplay packed in I wouldn't really enjoy it either and if I wasn't expecting it I would be disappointed that I paid money for it.

 

A lot of your QOL suggestions are good and have a good chance of being implemented. But most of your suggestions that run contrary to the design goals of the developers are just not going to happen. Maybe if you outline exactly what you want out of the game and post it in the modding discussion and requests subforum your vision will spark the interest of a modder looking for an idea for a new overhaul mod. That is more likely to happen than that 1.0 or 1.1 or 1.2 or 1.3 will change the game around by 75-80% to your liking from what it is now.

Edited May 18 by Roland (see edit history)

[MechanicalLens]

16 hours ago, zztong said:

I agree with this. I'm over 4k hours now having started largely with A19. Mostly-vanilla is my preferred way to play, but purely Vanilla is fine too. I think it does well in the small-team arena too. That is, if I watch something on Twitch, it is often a few friends playing Vanilla with, or without Twitch integration. Part of that is my self-selection as I don't know the Overhauls very well so I don't tend to watch people play them.

 

What's important for everyone to try to remember, myself included, is that everyone has their own tastes and needs to keep the experience enjoyable for them. Regardless of what "side" you're on, one's experience is never the be all and end all, and the line between subjective and objective poor game design can become muddied in the minds of many. For instance, I've barely dabbled into overhaul mods over the many thousands of hours into this game, and I'm in the minority. That doesn't make my experience inferior, nor does it make any modaholic's experience individually worth more weight either, unless you're looking from a number's perspective (i.e. the lifetime longevity of a game). Mods are important, and no game can realistically comparatively survive for long without them. While for the fabled water change, bringing that up as an example, many players would have appreciated a little more flexibility in TFP's decision-making via listening to community feedback, I feel like with whatever decision they could possibly make, people would always pick up the rose and complain about the thorns.

 

Basically, at least from my experience, I have to work on not @%$#ing as much and focus on the aspects of the game I do like while acknowledging that any change I don't like is either out of the principle that humans are resistant to change, or that it's just my perspective among many.

[Unamelable]

2 hours ago, Roland said:

If I bought this game and it had a ton of RTS gameplay packed in I wouldn't really enjoy it either and if I wasn't expecting it I would be disappointed that I paid money for it

 

I just imagined if TFP actually did a 7DTD sequel on mobile phones in RTS setting 💀