(UPDATED) Why I don't like "Learning by Reading"

[Unamelable]

I seem to have played the game wrong initially, if I knew what the correct settings to turn on. I wouldn't have ruined my mood and overall experience.

 

Navezgrad apparently wasn't designed to level up progress with magazines. I always had a problem where I simply had nowhere to find them until the endgame. Houses or buildings just had books as extra loot, not as main loot. And at the standard 100% I still couldn't find enough magz to close this progression stage. Because there were very few zombies on the location. That was very difficult to level-up the basic skills, simply because it became very boring from - because of the time for which is given the same leveling. By adding more enemies with the help of the mod WHICH CHANGES XML CONFIGURATION I closed the problem with the fact that I become naturally boring to play from - for lack of action. 

 

Generating the world using RWG added buildings I've never seen, and generally made it easier to find logs. Which are not linked spawn tables on Navezgrad. Because of which I have not had a situation where I can not find magazines on one set of skills, and on the other choke yourself (I mean cooking magazines). And even with 50% loot they are enough. Because on the map spawns more mailboxes and other buildings like Post Offices, Schools, and Libraries.

 

That's because I originally played on Navezgrad, and I wasn't aware that Learning by Reading wasn't adjusted for balance. I ruined my first impression, which I was able to fix with mods that again CHANGES XML CONFIGURATION and a random map that randomly creates the world. Thus making the game more interesting to play than in rotten vanilla, although I did not install any overhaul mods. I just had to change some values to stop the game from annoying behavior. Now I can at least confidently say that this save without question it is possible to level all skills at 100% just to 80-50 hours.

 

Updating theme with solution by that guy: 

1. Looting around the house looking for random magazines
2. Buying magazines from merchants
3. Airdrop searches for a set of books
4. Passing quests for magazines

 

This would be normal if it wasn't a major progression in the game that directly affects skill effectiveness (but luckily they aren't as important, but there are exceptions). And the level of craftable gear is affected by the number of magazines found. So in order to create an iron attack tool (such as spears). You will have to search for spear magazines that fall out ABSOLUTELY RANDOMLY.

 

And it should be taken into account that the merchants have a countdown through which their assortment is updated, you can not buy magazines every day in 24 hours unfortunately.

 

And these mechanics especially become a headache when you play with friends, where you have to literally memorize who is skilling what duties. But as a single-player, I take care of everything. And seeing how many magazines for each branch I have to find, I remind you, COMPLETELY RANDOMLY. That's a total bummer. It's like taking the mechanics of any video game where a character finds a random item in the game world "i.e. collectibles" you instantly forget about them because they don't reveal anything good and are mostly a boring part of the gameplay. In this case, it's multiplied 30 times, and created from it the basic mechanics, which I'm sure no one likes. And everyone would have preferred a different system.

 

It would seem just loot cars for engineering, kitchens for food, and workbenches for workbenches. But many magazines still depend on random because they don't loot in specific places. For example, weapons. And it turns out that instead of the lockers in the kitchen dropped food, it spawns useless magazines for food. And when you need to loot magazines for bows or pistols, you have to loot the whole house in order to get to the place with provisions

 

I wouldn't be talking about how awful this system is if it wasn't for the amount of it. There are too many branches for skills and crafting that the Learn by Reading system, along with randomness, turns into the boss of this game. Because to open it, I originally thought that I would have to spend 300 hours on a single save, which in principle was right.

 

19 skills that have 7 branches each. That's 133 magazines

23 craftings that have from 20 to 100 magazines each.

Thats 1920 magazines for full progression

I hope I don't need to tell you how inflated that number is for basic progression, with the randomness factor, given multiplayer, where such a branch even in Single-Player works horribly. Either the developers are reducing the number of magazines needed for full progress, making progression faster. Or create a new system that will not frustrate, and will not bore players with such a hellish grind.

 

Oh, I forgot that modifications are also opened by magazines. So good luck with opening all the content in the game, it will be so exciting!!!!

 

Also in the basic skill tree there is other nonsense that I will write later.

Edited May 17 by SylenThunder
solution (see edit history)

[Riamus]

You sure do want to make it appear far worse than it actually is, don't you?  Heh.  First of all, unless you really want to unlock everything, half the stuff isn't necessary.  For example, if you never use a spear, unlocking spear books is not necessary.  You can cut your magazines by around half, give or take, just by ignoring those you don't have any use for.  It is also extremely easy to get tons of magazines with little effort.  There are only a couple magazines that are particularly time consuming to get - vehicles, being one of them.  But if you don't feel like spending much time looking, it's very easy to just quest at bookstores and you'll find everything you need in a very short amount of time.  You should also avoid being the Jack of All Trades if you want to get magazines completed quickly.  The more you spread out your skills, the less chance you will get the magazines you want.  If you focus on one thing, you'll get those magazines quickly, but if you focus on 10 things, you're going to take much longer to complete anything.  Of course, I spread skills out anyhow, but I'm not in any rush.  After all, magazines are for crafting and most crafting I don't have any need for.

 

As far as books go, they have always been random and could take a long time to get the ones you wanted.  But you can use bookstores if you really don't want to wait.

 

Now, I am not saying the magazine system is well-designed because I don't really think it is.  There are a number of problems with it that should be fixed.  But they aren't going back to LBD, so that's not an option in vanilla.  What you can do that would actually have a chance of being listened to is to give constructive feedback that explains the problems and offers valid solutions to those problems that they would consider (saying to go to LBD isn't a solution they'll consider).  If all you post is a complaint about it, it'll just be ignored for the most part and nothing with come of it.  If you just want to complain and don't care about offering options that might actually be listened to, then that's up to you.  But if you actually care about trying to get the game in a better state, try offering constructive feedback rather than just complaining about stuff.  It'll have a better chance of actually getting somewhere.

[pApA^LeGBa]

The big problem with magazines is that it makes crafting meaningless. I can´t keep up with my crafting skills with what i find in loot and get as quest rewards, traders usually also sell stuff way above my skills. A lot of crafting is simply useless now. Not even hardcore magazine hunting and double dipping at quest locations helps here.

Edited May 6 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[meganoth]

 

13 hours ago, Unamelable said:

 ABSOLUTELY RANDOMLY.

 

Maybe you have missed the information that increasing associates perks dramatically increases the chance to find magazines of that type.

 

 

Edited May 6 by meganoth (see edit history)

[BFT2020]

Trader rewards can outpace your crafting skill which they talked about balancing in the future - not sure exactly how they are going to balance it so that is a wait and see.  Me personally, I don't use the trader rewards so that doesn't affect my playthroughs.

 

When I play vanilla, I find myself crafting more of the items I was spec'd into as I was finding those magazines frequently as I looted POIs and completed missions.  I would also supplement my magazines with trader purchases when they were available.  Crafting skills that I was not perked into, I tended to find better items in loot.  However, I don't push myself to get to the wasteland area for better loot during my playthroughs which will affect what I am able to craft versus loot.  That's another thing that will affect the items you get.  I tend to lean towards Agility playthroughs so I was crafting handguns, SMGs, knives, and bows before I could find a better one in loot.  But I play at a slower pace and don't rush to get my game stage / loot stage / trader stage up quickly; which probably affects a lot of finding better loot in trader inventories and in POIs (I typically don't complete the first tier of trader missions until around Horde day).

 

I actually prefer crafting the items myself, which is why I created a mod that prevents me from repairing the items in game.  So even if I find a Q6 pump action shotgun in loot, I can only use it until it breaks and have to replace it with what I am capable of crafting at that time.  I also did a small boost to the magazine drops since I can't repair items anymore.  I basically added a small chance that you can gain a second or third magazine from OEM crates.  However, I also added Q6 crafting ability and merged the other schematics into the crafting trees so that changed how many magazines you needed to complete a series - so that small boost compensates for the additional magazines I need to find, but didn't make it feel like I was completing them too quickly.

 

 

[8_Hussars]

16 hours ago, Unamelable said:

snip
 

The musings of a frustrated min/maxer/completionist...

[Roland]

16 hours ago, Unamelable said:

And these mechanics especially become a headache when you play with friends, where you have to literally memorize who is skilling what duties.

Others have covered some of your misconceptions so I will help out with this particular one:

 

Nobody has to memorize anything other than what they, themselves, are reading. You read your own magazines and dump the rest in a common chest at the base. Everyone periodically checks the chest to read any of their own magazines. 
 

Easy Peasy and no memorizing. 

[Unamelable]

17 hours ago, meganoth said:

Maybe you have missed the information that increasing associates perks dramatically increases the chance to find magazines of that type.

Then maybe you can explain why I already have the Food branch and the Gardening branch upgraded to the max. But still encountering a bunch of magazines about it. And the other progress is like 15-30/100 at worst? I have all skills open right now and if the game doesn't provide me with magazines - then it's a problem with the supply system

Edited May 7 by Unamelable (see edit history)

[Unamelable]

As I understand it I need to take a screenshot of the progress. Again I pay attention to the speed of gaining skills and opening crafts. This number is unsustainable under any circumstances. As an example, I can cite Project Zomboid, which has a system of leveling approximately the same (in terms of speed), but it is much faster in comparison with 7DTD

 

If the game stretches, limits, or just doesn't work for the player. That's not a player problem, it's a game balance problem. And poking me like "don't rush to level up fast" or "learn only those skills" is not a solution but an excuse. Again, I suggest the solution is for the magazines to be well MAX 50 per crafting branch. And that the magazines fell in the world more often, or change the values of the drop in the skills. Because I have a feeling that the multipliers are not working properly.

 

I have the skill tree fully leveled up at the moment

Edited May 7 by Unamelable (see edit history)

[meganoth]

4 hours ago, Unamelable said:

Then maybe you can explain why I already have the Food branch and the Gardening branch upgraded to the max. But still encountering a bunch of magazines about it. And the other progress is like 15-30/100 at worst? I have all skills open right now and if the game doesn't provide me with magazines - then it's a problem with the supply system

 

Farming and cooking are skills that are supposed to be maxed early in game. That you still find cooking/farming books after having maxed them is because there are containers with loot tables where only those types of magazines can drop. One could view this as a design fault or as a normal effect of a looting game because you can sell them or read them for XP, in other words they are not completely useless.

 

"Normally" a player would concentrate on a few perks and get those in a reasonable time. Though it also means that diversifying is punished by the game which is something I don't like and already have critizised in this forum. The game does mention this effect though, it is part of the perk description. If the player ignores this he will get behind in crafting, but since you can get almost anything from the trader as well, it certainly isn't game-breaking

 

If you have decided you want to play a game where you want to complete everything, then you will have to play a looong time, the level cap is at level 300. And when you are level 300 you probably will have all magazines. But nobody is expected to do this and the game isn't balanced for that. Generally, if you set your own goals in a game then there is no requirement for a game to make it easy for you.

 

 

 

 

[BFT2020]

56 minutes ago, meganoth said:

"Normally" a player would concentrate on a few perks and get those in a reasonable time. Though it also means that diversifying is punished by the game which is something I don't like and already have critizised in this forum. The game does mention this effect though, it is part of the perk description. If the player ignores this he will get behind in crafting, but since you can get almost anything from the trader as well, it certainly isn't game-breaking

 

I played around with reducing the perk bonus by half (2-10 now is 1-5).  It seemed to still give me a bonus chance on the things I perked into, but didn't cause the other crafting skills to lag behind as much.  I didn't get much play into that yet though so rwg might also have been a factor when I was trying that out.

[Whorhay]

The only skill that I always feel lags incredibly far behind where it should be relative to progression is the crafting stations. I always end up buying heaps of steel because there isn't enough to be salvaged and looted, but it's needed for making all kinds of stuff probably 20 to 30 hours before you're likely to come close to unlocking crucibles. I guess vehicles lag a bit as well, but the Motorcycle is really the only vehicle I push for, the 4x4 is just gravy and the gyro is just too awkward to bother with using.

[Vaeliorin]

If I needed steel 20-30 hours before I was unlocking crucibles, I'd need steel before I ever started a world.  My current world I'm on Day 19 (2 hours days) and I've already crafted several thousand steel.

 

While I will agree that getting all the magazines takes a lot of time, maxing out the ones for your early game perked skills isn't bad.  I've maxed out the magazines for all of my perked skills but one (machine guns, which I didn't perk until very recently.)  I outpaced looting for all the things I perked into early, but not things I haven't perked into or perked into later (later means after day 7).

 

That said, I do really think that the base game should include a way to scrap unneeded magazines for bits to make new magazines.  There are mods for it, but it's something that I'd like to see in vanilla.  Makes all those cooking magazines feel less useless, and smooths out progression when you've got most of your perked magazines maxed out, since you still get lots of magazines for things you've maxed.

[Riamus]

9 hours ago, Unamelable said:

Then maybe you can explain why I already have the Food branch and the Gardening branch upgraded to the max. But still encountering a bunch of magazines about it. And the other progress is like 15-30/100 at worst? I have all skills open right now and if the game doesn't provide me with magazines - then it's a problem with the supply system

That is related specifically to loot tables where those are found.  You aren't going to get other magazines in cabinets, so you will see many more of those if you are looting cabinets, for example.  If you were to loot only locations that offer any magazine, such as bookstores or mailboxes, you will see a more balanced (still RNG) drop rate. 

 

In addition, the more perks you put points into that are tied to magazines, the more you dilute the bonus you get from parking into it.  If you only perk into your weapon and the rest of your points go into perks that are not connected to magazines, you can be sure to find far more magazines for your weapon in containers that offer a variety of magazines. My main weapon always maxes out far sooner than any other weapons. 

 

I think I mentioned before that vehicles do tend to take a long time and so do workstations in many games.  Those could use some tweaking to the loot tables.  Otherwise, my main issue with magazines is that they generally don't keep pace with looting if I am looting all the time, which is normal for me in the early game.  That can use some tweaking as well.

[meganoth]

3 hours ago, Whorhay said:

The only skill that I always feel lags incredibly far behind where it should be relative to progression is the crafting stations. I always end up buying heaps of steel because there isn't enough to be salvaged and looted, but it's needed for making all kinds of stuff probably 20 to 30 hours before you're likely to come close to unlocking crucibles. I guess vehicles lag a bit as well, but the Motorcycle is really the only vehicle I push for, the 4x4 is just gravy and the gyro is just too awkward to bother with using.

 

Lockpicking also boosts finding workstation magazines. Though often it is still faster to simply check the trader for crucibles.

 

[binf_shinana]

I pointed out the problems with the magazine system many times when it was announced, but it's unfortunate that the fundamental problems don't seem to be widely shared.
The appearance rate of magazines is mutually exclusive, and the optimal solution is to improve only machine gunner skills and play spam-like, and if you want to play efficiently, there is basically no other answer. (There are only a few options to improve your picking skills and create a workbench early)
And since you are giving up on QoL, you tend to be dissatisfied with the game.
However, considering that many modders have adopted the vanilla magazine system as is and have not specifically tried to solve the above problems, I think that the magazine system is the best and perfect system, and my criticism may be misplaced. yeah. hahaha.

Edited May 8 by binf_shinana (see edit history)

[binf_shinana]

 

I previously shot a video of machine gunner spam, so please refer to it if you like. (If there are no changes to the magazine system, it may be possible to use 1.0 as well)
 

>Adventure(Default)

 

>Insane

 

[bdubyah]

I gave this system a run in my mod for A21, but will likely move away from it moving forward. My main issue is I just don't like how magazines rule all the loot. Every type of container you loot seems to have a magazine shoehorned into it.

 

That said, a lot of peoples' issues with the system seem to stem from them thinking they should be able to unlock everything all the time with every character they use. This has always been the case, and was an issue for them even back in A17 I think it was. Back then you literally couldn't get enough points to unlock everything, and people went nuts over it. And of course TFP caved and changed it. But I think it's okay, even expected, that you can't learn every single thing each time. That's something I also deal with in my mod as I limit the amount of attribute points you get. People hate that. Haha. I don't see this as an issue, but it's obvious a lot of people do.

[Unamelable]

yeah...

[MechanicalLens]

On 5/7/2024 at 10:45 AM, Riamus said:

 I think I mentioned before that vehicles do tend to take a long time and so do workstations in many games.  Those could use some tweaking to the loot tables.  Otherwise, my main issue with magazines is that they generally don't keep pace with looting if I am looting all the time, which is normal for me in the early game.  That can use some tweaking as well.

The solution right now really is you need to put at least one point into Grease Monkey and Lockpicking or Advanced Engineering very early on (even day 1) and you should be able to get their respective magazines 2-3 times more quickly, from my experience. I did a playthrough some months ago where I didn't put any points into the former, and I was stuck with a bicycle until day 30, and I unlocked the motorcycle by day 56. On my last run, I unlocked the minibike by day 14 and the motorcycle by day 30-ish with just a single point into the perk.

[Roland]

On 5/5/2024 at 6:48 PM, Unamelable said:

Thats 1920 magazines for full progression

I hope I don't need to tell you how inflated that number is for basic progression

 

There is a huge gap between "full progression" and "basic progression" but you seem to be saying they are the same. You can play effectively and survive well without reaching full progression. The game doesn't begin only after you've found every magazine. Most people play their entire playthrough with less than a full tank in most categories and still have plenty of fun. I just don't see the developers truncating or increasing the pace of progression. After all, most of the iterative changes they have made over the years has been to elongate and slow the pace of progression.

[FramFramson]

On 5/8/2024 at 11:58 AM, bdubyah said:

I gave this system a run in my mod for A21, but will likely move away from it moving forward. My main issue is I just don't like how magazines rule all the loot. Every type of container you loot seems to have a magazine shoehorned into it.

 

That said, a lot of peoples' issues with the system seem to stem from them thinking they should be able to unlock everything all the time with every character they use. This has always been the case, and was an issue for them even back in A17 I think it was. Back then you literally couldn't get enough points to unlock everything, and people went nuts over it. And of course TFP caved and changed it. But I think it's okay, even expected, that you can't learn every single thing each time. That's something I also deal with in my mod as I limit the amount of attribute points you get. People hate that. Haha. I don't see this as an issue, but it's obvious a lot of people do.

 

I've recently been feeling some dissatisfaction with the current magazine system, but it's hard for me to put my finger on what I don't like exactly.

 

Yes, part of it is that trader rewards will invariably beat out what you can craft, but that can be dealt with by nerfing trader rewards. But another part of it is that both the old and new systems have this oddly guaranteed slow-but-steady incremental progression. There's never any Eureka! or lucky moments when you jump a couple levels in a crafting skill. It makes it feel like you're going to school rather that scrounging in an apocalypse.

 

One idea I had was what if we went back to some iteration of learn by doing but that it only worked at an abysmally slow pace. Meanwhile magazines could still exist but would be rarer and offer several point of that skill at once (and thus more exciting). An added wrinkle could be that magazines could have a randomized range, like they give 3-6 skill points as opposed to a fixed 5 points (in a system where they're rarer) or something.

 

I don't know if that's really the situation I'm looking for, but I do want skill increases to feel more meaningful. Perhaps making do with worse weapons for longer, but also having your upgrades really be upgrades and not just "Oh I can make Q4 now instead of Q3."

 

Some element of finding "broken" but repairable higher-tier weapons which require a lower to repair than to craft is also an interesting possibility for making loot something more interesting than just dozens of identical books.

[Unamelable]

1 hour ago, FramFramson said:

 

I've recently been feeling some dissatisfaction with the current magazine system, but it's hard for me to put my finger on what I don't like exactly.

 

Yes, part of it is that trader rewards will invariably beat out what you can craft, but that can be dealt with by nerfing trader rewards. But another part of it is that both the old and new systems have this oddly guaranteed slow-but-steady incremental progression. There's never any Eureka! or lucky moments when you jump a couple levels in a crafting skill. It makes it feel like you're going to school rather that scrounging in an apocalypse.

 

One idea I had was what if we went back to some iteration of learn by doing but that it only worked at an abysmally slow pace. Meanwhile magazines could still exist but would be rarer and offer several point of that skill at once (and thus more exciting). An added wrinkle could be that magazines could have a randomized range, like they give 3-6 skill points as opposed to a fixed 5 points (in a system where they're rarer) or something.

 

I don't know if that's really the situation I'm looking for, but I do want skill increases to feel more meaningful. Perhaps making do with worse weapons for longer, but also having your upgrades really be upgrades and not just "Oh I can make Q4 now instead of Q3."

 

Some element of finding "broken" but repairable higher-tier weapons which require a lower to repair than to craft is also an interesting possibility for making loot something more interesting than just dozens of identical books.

 

I have a moment where I create a world, go all the way to trader. I do a couple of the same quests again.

 

And I'm like, "hell no i will do the same @%$# over again. Its insane! With a lack of diversity and a single scenario that makes me virtually sick. There's no desire to play, but they've made everything so it's a very strong lever to progression. After all almost 90% of quest rewards give out logs that directly affect your progress.

 

The funny thing is that even if you loot at home, you probably don't have enough space in your inventory, and even with a truck + drones you can't loot more than 4 POI's if you play in "vacuum cleaner" mode. Because of which there is a banal answer that.

 

The point of clearing POI's without a quest if the quest will give me more rewards, as I will not be able to pick up more items anyway. And then I have a second question - why can't we take all the quests at once. What the hell is the point of a player doing one quest to go to a merchant to pick up another. You can still take quests from other merchants, and in the same Navezgrad you can have up to 5 active quests from different locations. Seems efficient? But the thing is that you have to literally drive around the map to take a quest from each merchant.

 

And it's honestly very annoying. When you could pump the merchant relationship up to V. You have to literally drive for 3-5 hours without fail through different POIs back and forth instead of doing everything efficiently. And the slot system limits trivial scavenging, and I'm sure the developers just didn't update the inventory system to save so many items.

 

There's a lot of junk that has a single use. For example, the aloe cream, you can craft with it.

The moment with the level 6 item made me fall over at all. Now nothing depends on your current level.

You just have to have luck and all the best items will drop at the end of the game. What the hell is the point of progression then?!?

 

 

 

Seriously, you start thinking about the mechanics of the game and you get hysterical at how bad it is. And instead of people talking about possible solutions they just told to stop play the game or to cram everything in with mods. For the sake of not logical to discuss how it can be changed for the better, as I prefer my feedback as a disgruntled player who wants to make the game better.

Edited May 16 by Unamelable (see edit history)

[Unamelable]

 

Hey guys, i fixed traiders!

https://www.nexusmods.com/7daystodie/mods/3282?tab=description

I really don't like that the developers want to force an RPG forcibly thereby making the gameplay terrible. 

[FramFramson]

I don't really hold this against the devs very much because they do allow us the thing single most important thing a game dev can do these days: Allow us to mod the game.

 

It really is impossible to please all players. Some complaints will be silly or small, and some will be big or legitimate, but may involve a different philosophy about how the game "should" be played. Modding the game allows us to tailor our experiences to what we want more precisely, instead of desperately hoping some random employee will do what we, a random individual customer, wants. Any game that leaves you mostly at the mercy of a corporation has a very high chance of disappointing and frustrating players, often to the point where the game is intolerable.

 

The freedom and agency to fix our own problems seems like "lazy" development, but no, it's one of the the most important things a game's developers can give to players. It also requires work for the game to accommodate it - the true "lazy" option is not putting in code to enable mods in the first place.