Arrows/Archery issue or bug?

[Rukbat14]

I'm not sure if this belongs in general discussion or not, but I wanted to ask if TFP plans on fixing or attempting to fix arrow hit registration?

 

There have been multiple instances where I went archery, only to have arrows go THROUGH zombies, even at point blank range. Like... It happens A LOT, and I watch the arrow go through the zombie, or there's no way I could have missed... I'd love to actually go archery for a more stealthy playstyle, but the risk of taking damage for no real reason seems less than ideal.

[pApA^LeGBa]

And while they fix that, they could also fix the reloading bug for bows where you have an arrow loaded shown in bottom right corner but it´s invisible, you can shoot it but it can´t hit anything.

[meilodasreh]

Last time I brought up that point, I was told that my aim is a bit off, and/or the zombie moves out of the invisible "crosshair-circle" right in the moment / frame when the arrow should have hit it, followed by elaborate explanations about ballistics...😑

I'm at a point where I just ignore that this bug/glitch is ignored.

 

[zztong]

There have been times I've missed what seemed like a guaranteed hit, but I've not assumed it was a bug. Often, the animations have enough movement to mess with my aim and that there's some part of my target reticle that could be a viable miss, like the shot going through the arm pit game, between the legs, or breezing just slightly wide right or left. I'm not talking about really long range shots as the arc/ballistics are clearly at play then.

[Roland]

It might be just in my head but I also feel like stone arrows miss as described by the OP more often than iron arrows do and that the "glitch" happens even less often with the better bows/ crossbows which lends some credence that there is an intended "hit roll" probability at play even if your aim is visually spot on. I do agree that having a visual result where the arrow appears to pass through the zombie is a poor feedback loop for the player IF things are behaving normally and it isn't a glitch.

 

Also, I notice (and it can't just be in my head) that the "bug" doesn't seem to happen ever for me when I am shooting a stationary sleeper. Those arrows always hit perfectly for me. Could that again be the game giving me a 100% "to hit" vs a non-moving target? Could that be proof that the actual issue is as zztong stated? @Jugginator any idea? Is there a ticket for this commonly mentioned player feedback?

 

Or can we keep messing with Meilo?  

[theFlu]

32 minutes ago, Roland said:

I do agree that having a visual result where the arrow appears to pass through the zombie is a poor feedback loop for the player IF things are behaving normally and it isn't a glitch.

If it was an intentional thing, I would assume the modders would have ran into the config or the code and we'd already know for a fact. But Juggs might disagree of course..

[meganoth]

Does the hit-circle count at the moment you release the arrow or when the arrow arrives at the target location?

 

 

[FranticDan]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

It might be just in my head but I also feel like stone arrows miss as described by the OP more often than iron arrows do and that the "glitch" happens even less often with the better bows/ crossbows which lends some credence that there is an intended "hit roll" probability at play even if your aim is visually spot on. I do agree that having a visual result where the arrow appears to pass through the zombie is a poor feedback loop for the player IF things are behaving normally and it isn't a glitch.

 

Also, I notice (and it can't just be in my head) that the "bug" doesn't seem to happen ever for me when I am shooting a stationary sleeper. Those arrows always hit perfectly for me. Could that again be the game giving me a 100% "to hit" vs a non-moving target? Could that be proof that the actual issue is as zztong stated? @Jugginator any idea? Is there a ticket for this commonly mentioned player feedback?

 

Or can we keep messing with Meilo?  

All projectiles have this issue.
I've had cop spit go right through solid blocks. And also rockets fired at a down angle not detonating and going through the terrain.
On top of that, I've had molotovs explode in my hand as I throw them when there's a lot of zombies around in an open field

Furthermore, for a few frames while zombies are picking themselves up, their entire hitbox disappears completely, causing all attacks to miss, including center of torso, hitting the block below them

[theFlu]

2 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Does the hit-circle count at the moment you release the arrow or when the arrow arrives at the target location?

If "hit-circle" = "crosshair area": As far as I can tell (not having tested it specifically), the arrow is given a direction at the moment of release, and then it follows a physics based trajectory from there - requiring lead and such. So it can't "count" at the moment of release, but it does give the direction at that time.

[4sheetzngeegles]

Everybody; I have a few questions. Does it seem to happen more when online
or is it primarily off line play. Online may be packet lag vs render.

 

Second are you moving, meaning your feet,  at all during the shot?
Third question are you in basic aim, or stationary focus mode, or panning
focus mode during shot?

 

Fourth if in focused shot, do you hold it the same length of time as
it takes to full power throw a rock or spear, meaning that green power bar?

 

I ask because the primitive bow/stone arrow is my primary weapon, second
is my re-modded stone spear. The only time I have a consistent problem missing a
moving target is if I don't hold the full charge up cycle. Similar to sniper
elite long range slomo shots. I kind of got accustomed to leading the target to
a stationary release point for me.

 

The second for a head shot, and i asked about this before. When i need a more
accurate head shot, and the sticky arrow mechanic helps me see the results,
I have to shoot beside the head. to the right between the head and collar bone.
I think the head collider size maybe offset and smaller than the visual.

 

Shooting small game at max distance, I elevate to allow for drop, but I noticed
testing this at pitch night hunting. The chicken has a larger hit box than rabbit
when aiming for the head.

 

Maybe over time Iv'e just gotten use to the offset. There are ray trace glitches though.
To check it, crouch and be out of range of detection. Zoom the scope on zombie, head and
suddenly they see you. Last there is a definite delay between trigger squeeze and hit
it sounds like a pick hitting dirt. But there is a noticeable delay.

[ElCabong]

I'm not 100% sure this is a bug anymore. I was like you for the longest time but then when I equipped the arrow guide mod to my bow, I started hitting a lot more often. Now this business of missing them when they're at point black range still happened usually when I was aiming at the head. This entirely goes away when I'm using a crossbow with a scope. I'm not sure what's going on here

[zztong]

7 hours ago, 4sheetzngeegles said:

Does it seem to happen more when online or is it primarily off line play.

 

I'm mostly solo play. (I'm between servers right now; haven't found a new one.) Online play would certainly mess with things.

 

7 hours ago, 4sheetzngeegles said:

Second are you moving, meaning your feet,  at all during the shot?

 

Both. Stationary shots with stealth in POIs. Running and gunning with a bow / stone arrows for hordes. This is why I like the TFP target reticle rather than mods the mess with sights.

 

7 hours ago, 4sheetzngeegles said:

Third question are you in basic aim, or stationary focus mode, or panning
focus mode during shot?

 

Both aimed and hipshot. Both while stationary and moving. Depends on circumstances.

 

7 hours ago, 4sheetzngeegles said:

Fourth if in focused shot, do you hold it the same length of time as
it takes to full power throw a rock or spear, meaning that green power bar?

 

Mostly full power. Sometimes a snap shot when running and gunning.

 

Overall, I have no trouble believing I've missed if I'm mobile and hip shooting. The target reticle usually has lots of possible misses unless the Z is in my face. The "Hmmm" times are usually when stationary, aimed, and close.

 

8 hours ago, FranticDan said:

Furthermore, for a few frames while zombies are picking themselves up, their entire hitbox disappears completely, causing all attacks to miss, including center of torso

 

Yes, agree. This is why I suspect if I'm not really missing by way of the arm pit, left/right of the neck, between legs, that I might have caught an animation changing or being in a different state than what I thought it was when I fired.

Edited December 15, 2023 by zztong (see edit history)

[4sheetzngeegles]

@zztong

Thanks for the feedback. It gave me an idea. Maybe if TFP added a command to allow
Raytrace and object collider "similar to seeing poi spawn volumes"to be visible in
DM it would give a clearer picture.

 

@FranticDan
I agree also, when transitioning animations the they do have IFrames. I can see it
at times. There is also a stall or a stutter, between ray hit and the fall back.

 

During my time using it, one thing i did notice, where the reticle is pointing when loading the bow
sometimes its offset to the left, so i have to quick switch to another weapon and back to straighten it out.

[Rukbat14]

10 hours ago, 4sheetzngeegles said:

Everybody; I have a few questions. Does it seem to happen more when online
or is it primarily off line play. Online may be packet lag vs render.

 

Second are you moving, meaning your feet,  at all during the shot?
Third question are you in basic aim, or stationary focus mode, or panning
focus mode during shot?

 

Fourth if in focused shot, do you hold it the same length of time as
it takes to full power throw a rock or spear, meaning that green power bar?

 

I ask because the primitive bow/stone arrow is my primary weapon, second
is my re-modded stone spear. The only time I have a consistent problem missing a
moving target is if I don't hold the full charge up cycle. Similar to sniper
elite long range slomo shots. I kind of got accustomed to leading the target to
a stationary release point for me.

 

The second for a head shot, and i asked about this before. When i need a more
accurate head shot, and the sticky arrow mechanic helps me see the results,
I have to shoot beside the head. to the right between the head and collar bone.
I think the head collider size maybe offset and smaller than the visual.

 

Shooting small game at max distance, I elevate to allow for drop, but I noticed
testing this at pitch night hunting. The chicken has a larger hit box than rabbit
when aiming for the head.

 

Maybe over time Iv'e just gotten use to the offset. There are ray trace glitches though.
To check it, crouch and be out of range of detection. Zoom the scope on zombie, head and
suddenly they see you. Last there is a definite delay between trigger squeeze and hit
it sounds like a pick hitting dirt. But there is a noticeable delay.

 

I've tried a lot of things, but it happened again just last night on a fresh solo game. I encountered a biker on my way to the trader quest, and I fired a shot directly at his chest with full charge about 4 blocks away while standing completely still, and the arrow went straight through him, I watched it happen and heard it hit the ground behind him. I don't really fire at zombies that are falling or standing back up that often, because I feel like it's a wasted shot due to movement animations glitching out and what not. I have 1,500 hours played on 7D2D and I'm pretty knowledgeable at almost everything in the game, I don't feel like it's an intentional coding to sort of RNG to completely miss a zombie, even with a primitive bow/stone arrow, because I could go outside and make both in real life (I'm a survivalist type person/redneck IRL), and still hit a human-sized target 10 yards away just fine.

 

I've had it happen with all levels of bows and all levels of arrows/bolts. Excluding explosive/flaming arrows/bolts simply because I think I've used flaming arrows 1 time since playing the game, and explosive arrows I use on horde nights to thin out packs, if I have them. 

 

It doesn't seem to happen often with sleepers, but it does happen once in a blue moon. 

 

I'll try to record it happening and post it here? I'm not sure if that's allowed on these forums or not. 

[Rotor]

I do believe is a bug, or a hole in the zombie model.  Happens way to often.

Edited December 16, 2023 by Crater Creator
flaming, off topic (see edit history)

[4sheetzngeegles]

Rukbat14

It's allowed, that's really the only way to show it. there is an overall

limit to the size i think 50 meg. or if really large you can store it on

one of the share servers and save a link here.

 

It seems to follow what zztong posted. Reading each of the posts it

seems to point to proximity. In other words, up close a z that is 4

blocks away is closer to 2 blocks with the arrow nocked. It may be

traveling too fast at that range for the raytrace to calculate.

 

Similar to a zombie on one side of a door, block one the door block 2

the player on the other side block 4, and you are able to be hit. Easily

seen with the legless crawlers. that may be it, timing and collider check.

 

I just thought of something else forgot to add before. I set my turn movement

to 24-26 and my zoom movement to 18-20. 

Edited December 16, 2023 by 4sheetzngeegles (see edit history)

[Rukbat14]

10 hours ago, 4sheetzngeegles said:

Rukbat14

It's allowed, that's really the only way to show it. there is an overall

limit to the size i think 50 meg. or if really large you can store it on

one of the share servers and save a link here.

 

It seems to follow what zztong posted. Reading each of the posts it

seems to point to proximity. In other words, up close a z that is 4

blocks away is closer to 2 blocks with the arrow nocked. It may be

traveling too fast at that range for the raytrace to calculate.

 

Similar to a zombie on one side of a door, block one the door block 2

the player on the other side block 4, and you are able to be hit. Easily

seen with the legless crawlers. that may be it, timing and collider check.

 

I just thought of something else forgot to add before. I set my turn movement

to 24-26 and my zoom movement to 18-20. 

Thanks, I'll try to see if shooting them at a farther distance helps any. 

Edited December 16, 2023 by Crater Creator
response to now-deleted content (see edit history)

[4sheetzngeegles]

In the end TFP would have to check it out. But there are more coincidences

on various ways of using it to be a complete fluke. I think they will, it  just might

take a while. If it registers as a bug to them one of the mods will automatically

xfer the post to that directory for you.

 

It did bring up one coincidence from another game that I still play often.

Dying light, the fast infected humans, they wreak havoc on hp. Whenever,

and this is on a regular basis, they are right up on me, i can drop 8 shots with

the German 9mm in the chest and not hit a thing. So I have to kick them and back

up a few paces then the shots register.

[meganoth]

7 hours ago, 4sheetzngeegles said:

If it registers as a bug to them one of the mods will automatically

xfer the post to that directory for you.

 

Not that I know of, we mods are much too lazy to do stuff for you automatically 😉. If you want to report a bug, be sure to use the red button above and follow the instructions there.

 

Edited December 16, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[meganoth]

21 hours ago, theFlu said:

If "hit-circle" = "crosshair area": As far as I can tell (not having tested it specifically), the arrow is given a direction at the moment of release, and then it follows a physics based trajectory from there - requiring lead and such. So it can't "count" at the moment of release, but it does give the direction at that time.

 

Thanks. It means longer ranges are impossible to test. But we are talking about short range now anyway.

 

Another thought (untested, from memory): I have the impression that zombies standing up seem to be invulnerable to melee weapons as well. But one possibility would be that they are not, but there is simply no hit feedback as there is no animation for this available. So standing up has always to conclude before the zombie can show anything happening to him.   

Edited December 16, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[theFlu]

30 minutes ago, meganoth said:

But one possibility would be that they are not, but there is simply no hit feedback as there is no animation for this available.

Well, possible, but whenever you hit the floor under the zed, it's a rather clear indication that the hit wasn't "consumed" when landing on the zed. It should be; hitting zeds next to a wall won't hit the wall And the zed even if the wall is in range. (Glancing blows can land on the zed, but not the wall, so a combo is possible, but not for proper hits)

[Riamus]

I don't think they are invulnerable when standing up as I've lit them on fire at that point even when they weren't on fire when I knocked them down and I've killed them at that point as well (using melee).  I can't say for certain with guns as I've gotten to the point where I almost exclusively use melee even in tier 6 infestation and only use guns on horde night or in rare cases where I'm being overwhelmed.  So I just don't remember with guns.

 

Of course, I've also missed them when they were standing up, though I usually am sure that it was a real miss.  There are times when I do miss and think I shouldn't have, but with the various animations and movements, it probably is an actual miss.  But I don't ever use bows or crossbows, so I can't say what happens with them other than that a lot of people comment on missing point blank shots.  And there's a belief that if your bow/crossbow is inside the zombie, the arrow/bolt cannot hit the collider and so misses the zombie.

[4sheetzngeegles]

@meganoth

You're right in hindsight I should have said, may, instead of will, as an absolute.

Since Rukbat14

was newly posting and wondering as to the rules, I went by past observation,

and faith in you.  I guess.  Tis the season for it.

 

The good thing about this thread is getting to see all of the different ways that

players observe the system, and how it functions for them under their individual

circumstances or use.

 

If Faatal can make water work in this environment the way he did. Then this would be

a cake walk for him.

 

 

[theFlu]

15 minutes ago, Riamus said:

I don't think they are invulnerable when standing up as I've lit them on fire at that point

Hmm, nothing you say is wrong; but all of that applies only to "full invulnerability". The hit boxes can be buggy as anything and you can still register some hits. Fire can be procced on a glance, for example, the torso hit box is missing so you miss "thru" that but you glance a leg.

 

It is rare in any case, not every hit and probably not the whole duration of the get-up-animation is a problem. Which of course makes debugging it all the more fun...

[Riamus]

2 hours ago, theFlu said:

Hmm, nothing you say is wrong; but all of that applies only to "full invulnerability". The hit boxes can be buggy as anything and you can still register some hits. Fire can be procced on a glance, for example, the torso hit box is missing so you miss "thru" that but you glance a leg.

 

It is rare in any case, not every hit and probably not the whole duration of the get-up-animation is a problem. Which of course makes debugging it all the more fun...

Perhaps, though the number of times I kill zombies that are getting up suggests that they aren't invulnerable when getting up under normal circumstances.  I agree that the fire may be just a random glancing blow as that doesn't happen often since they are usually already on fire when they hit the ground to begin with.  But killing them as they are getting up happens regularly.

 

Of course, this didn't mean there isn't a problem with hit boxes during some animations or when you are too close with a bow or crossbow.  I just meant to say that that generally aren't invulnerable to melee when getting up.