Fundamentals of Survivor

[Rotor]

32 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

Maybe that you find it easy is because you are a veteran?

 

All alphas at least since A17 had been much much harder in their 0 version and were dimmed down heavily

If you understand that there is no jar even before you drink a jar of water then you understand the non-simulation of jars in 7D2D 😉

 

So ignore the visuals?  Got it.

 

I mean I'm reality there is nothing, just 1s and 0s.

 

But I am not playing "The Matrix"

 

Atleast not that I know of :).

[theFlu]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

How can that be when currently the jar simulation is that the jar is NOT simulated at all 😄

Indeed. That would be one of the premises of my statement.

 

Jar simulation type 1: "No simulation" == not realistic at all.

Jar simulation type 2: "There is One Jar that Symbolizes all the jars you'll ever need" == not realistic at all.

Not realistic at all == not realistic at all.

 

There are differences, but the realism is nearly exactly the same.

 

Yes, I'm feeding the mod again, but whatever, nites ...

[Urban Blackbear]

I'm just going to leave this here:

 

 

[meganoth]

11 hours ago, theFlu said:

Jar simulation type 1: "No simulation" == not realistic at all

 

Actually you are right, but that unrealism is the only reason you can run a game on a computer. Any game that is not the matrix is bound to have a lot of that type of unrealism. It also makes games fun. Think of a SF game where you have to fly months to a distant planet and it did actually simulate time.

 

For me that is a very different type of unrealism, the unrealism of you having to fill in the blanks. There is no jars, you have to imagine you are filling the water into containers.

This is similar to the unrealism of a book, which is as far from "your" realism as possible, where you have to fill in the blanks. But your imagination can be as realistic as you want.

 

This is different from an inconsistency to reality (not being able to get water from a lake is such an inconsistency, as would be a forced single jar) for example which makes it hard to imagine the realism. 

 

Edited December 9, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Hellox]

I seen some people saying it makes game harder cause no infinite water with jars. In some regards I guess that may be true.

Yet, I think it is almost as easy if not easier than before with "magical water dispensers" that give you more than enough water each day that you don't even have to purify.

 

This game doesn't have much of a survival aspect of food or water , besides having the numbers.

 

Both food and water are plentiful in this game. Even if you play on day 200 multiplayer with everything ranshacked... the amount of food and water you get is enough to feed an army.

 

To jar or not to jar... I could careless, I like the idea of trying to get rid of infinite water and make game harder but could have been done by just making water finite as well..

 

Honestly think game really lacks the "hardcore" survivor feeling and isn't really going to change unless a lot of things do.

Edited December 9, 2023 by Hellox (see edit history)

[theFlu]

7 hours ago, meganoth said:

There is no jars, you have to imagine you are filling the water into containers.

And then you have to imagine that your character _just won't_, when it comes to lakes?

 

Filling a nonexistent jar from a toilet bowl is "fine and unrealistic", but filling a nonexistent jar from a lake would be "wrong", how?

[meganoth]

2 hours ago, theFlu said:

And then you have to imagine that your character _just won't_, when it comes to lakes?

 

Filling a nonexistent jar from a toilet bowl is "fine and unrealistic", but filling a nonexistent jar from a lake would be "wrong", how?

 

I see I couldn't explain it for you to understand: For me the water changes we are talking about are two distinct changes with two distinct main reasons:

 

1) Removing jars from the game. Reason: TFP wanted all containers equally gone, no-shows, not simulated. A clean-up

 

2) Preventing the player from getting water from lakes except by drinking with heavy side effects. Reason: They wanted water to be scarce in early game and for the player to overcome this shortage over some time.

 

Note that each one of the changes is independent enough to be realized without the other:

 

1) You could have jars removed but using E on a lake would create say 10 units of water in your inventory. Just like E on a gasoline pump gives you a few units of gasoline.

2) Or the other way round you could have unlimited water jars like in A20 and just not be able to fill them from lakes or snow (in this case the dew collector would be slightly different, it would need you to insert empty jars to be filled).

 

I was talking about the first change and it clearly is not unrealistic but just leaving the details to your imagination. Many of you want to talk about the second change because it irks you, but then you pounce on the vanishing jars instead. That will only muddy the issues and not help you.

 

This is as if I wanted to have a broken thermometer fixed but complained about the bad weather.

 

 

 

Edited December 9, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[theFlu]

38 minutes ago, meganoth said:

I see I couldn't explain it for you to understand:

I understand it just fine, I'm trying to get through to you that the OP here wasn't complaining about 1), he's complaining about 2), in all caps no less. Your counterpoint of "bet you didn't notice gas cans aren't there either" is counterproductive and only served to confuse the discussion. At this stage it feels intentional.

 

34 minutes ago, meganoth said:

This is as if I wanted to have a broken thermometer fixed but complained about the bad weather.

 

The OP was asking for a jar, that he can fill at a lake. To which you went with "but I bet you didn't see there's no gas cans!". Sorry, but that doesn't look like a good faith argument from the get go.

 

A post later you go "you just haven't gotten used to the new way of solving emergencies" ... he was never talking about emergencies, just the fact that the player character is now stupid enough to be destroying whatever means he's using for fluid transfer - but only when he happens by a lake.

 

The problem isn't "the game is hard", the problem is "the game be stupid".

[Ramethzer0]

3 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

I see I couldn't explain it for you to understand: For me the water changes we are talking about are two distinct changes with two distinct main reasons:

 

1) Removing jars from the game. Reason: TFP wanted all containers equally gone, no-shows, not simulated. A clean-up

 

2) Preventing the player from getting water from lakes except by drinking with heavy side effects. Reason: They wanted water to be scarce in early game and for the player to overcome this shortage over some time.

 

Note that each one of the changes is independent enough to be realized without the other:

 

1) You could have jars removed but using E on a lake would create say 10 units of water in your inventory. Just like E on a gasoline pump gives you a few units of gasoline.

2) Or the other way round you could have unlimited water jars like in A20 and just not be able to fill them from lakes or snow (in this case the dew collector would be slightly different, it would need you to insert empty jars to be filled).

 

I was talking about the first change and it clearly is not unrealistic but just leaving the details to your imagination. Many of you want to talk about the second change because it irks you, but then you pounce on the vanishing jars instead. That will only muddy the issues and not help you.

 

This is as if I wanted to have a broken thermometer fixed but complained about the bad weather.

 

 

 

 

Now, if only we would be willing to pin this statement at the top of the forums as a scarecrow to prevent more threads on the same issue, we'd be set!

[meganoth]

6 hours ago, theFlu said:

understand it just fine, I'm trying to get through to you that the OP here wasn't complaining about 1), he's complaining about 2), in all caps no less. Your counterpoint of "bet you didn't notice gas cans aren't there either" is counterproductive and only served to confuse the discussion. At this stage it feels intentional.

 

No, he is complaining about both. And I could offer a few quotes but they stick out quite well, just reread his posts. Now would you please stop acting as his spokesperson, if he feels misrepresented he can and should speak for himself.

 

And I think we disected this issue enough, so I am out.

 

[theFlu]

11 minutes ago, meganoth said:

if he feels misrepresented he can and should speak for himself.

He did, on the first page. You didn't read what he's saying, and went with "you can't deal with emergencies" instead. He gave up shortly after. Now, you gave up. Great. I'll consider this a loss for everyone involved

[Roland]

On 12/8/2023 at 8:48 PM, Hellox said:

I seen some people saying it makes game harder cause no infinite water with jars. In some regards I guess that may be true.

Yet, I think it is almost as easy if not easier than before with "magical water dispensers" that give you more than enough water each day that you don't even have to purify.

 

This game doesn't have much of a survival aspect of food or water , besides having the numbers.

 

Both food and water are plentiful in this game. Even if you play on day 200 multiplayer with everything ranshacked... the amount of food and water you get is enough to feed an army.

 

To jar or not to jar... I could careless, I like the idea of trying to get rid of infinite water and make game harder but could have been done by just making water finite as well..

 

Honestly think game really lacks the "hardcore" survivor feeling and isn't really going to change unless a lot of things do.

Not a lot of things. Just one actually. 50% loot setting. Give it a go because it really makes a big difference. 

[meilodasreh]

7D2D isn't a survival game in the first place.

It's a looter-shooter that has also some - rather basic - survival aspects to it.

 

People who would rather like to see its survival aspect being more predominant are disappointed by the water changes,

because they see the "real life survival logic" being cut from the game.

Especially in an "urban postapocalyptic suvival situation" - which obviously is exactly the theme of 7D2D - there should be an overabundance of empty ( or reusable full) containers which could be found all over the place, and you'd have no problem to get these (emtpy bottles and alike) and use them to collect water, fuel, and whatever other fluids you want and take it with you.

That obvious break of logic is what bugs people.

They're not really complaining that the game doesn't work anymore, in fact many people say that water is still too easy to get. It doesn't matter.

 

So yes, the decision that TFP decided to get rid of emtpy containers does work gameplay wise, but with said downside.

Making water scarce is...questionable and may still be subject to further balancing.

 

But really there is no need to try and explain these people from end to end why their opinion that there should be empty containers in the game is (allegedly) bad/wrong/logic breaking/...

 

When somebody says he wants to fetch water from a lake and doesn't like that this is gone,

just tell him: YES! In that aspect, that decision totally sucks! Basic survival logic was taken away from a game that claims to (also) be a survival game.

But it was for the good of other aspects that profit from that desicion. And yes it works smooth overall, despite the "stupidity" that...and many other things too if you think carefully.

This is not The Long Dark...and I'm glad it isn't.

 

...well, considering the length this post has reached...the long dark might apply somehow to it...sorry...

 

 

Edited December 11, 2023 by meilodasreh (see edit history)

[Urban Blackbear]

Can we talk about shell casing and how they disappear when I fire off bullets? A lot of survival games out there let you pick them back up. Free the brass!

[Riamus]

34 minutes ago, meilodasreh said:

When somebody says he wants to fetch water from a lake and doesn't like that this is gone,

just tell him: YES! In that aspect, that decision totally sucks! Basic survival logic was taken away from a game that claims to (also) be a survival game.

But it was for the good of other aspects that profit from that desicion. And yes it works smooth overall, despite the "stupidity" that...and many other things too if you think carefully.

This is a good point.  The debate over immersion and realism relating to empty jars and/or getting water from lakes and similar sources isn't ever going to go anywhere because 1) It isn't realistic, and 2) It doesn't make sense (unless you focus only on whether or not it makes water more difficult).  It is a change that is going to feel stupid to players.  There's no way around that and no explaining how it is better just because all containers are now gone or that water is more difficult.  That doesn't solve the core problem of it feeling stupid to players.

 

I am happy to have empty jars gone.  And I have no interest in water from lakes and stuff.  I'm also not at all interested in dew collectors; I think they are dumb and a poor choice for gathering water.  Yet I still feel that preventing gathering water from a water source is stupid regardless of gameplay.  The only way to fix that is to make that water deadly to drink and impossible to purify.  This would require that you make it deadly to swim in as well for it to make sense, of course.  You can't fix it by talking about making water more difficult or making all containers gone even if you want them gone like I do.

 

So, in short, there's no reason to get into these debates beyond simply saying something like you suggest - "Yes, it's stupid.  Yes, it isn't immersive.  But they don't want the jars and they don't want water to be so easy to get from water sources, so it's what we have."  Then, just leave it at that.  No one is going to change anyone's opinions, so debating isn't going to ever get anywhere.  Besides, I don't think anyone who is on the side of being glad jars are gone and water is less easy to access doesn't agree that it really doesn't make any sense even if they like the change. 

Edited December 11, 2023 by Riamus (see edit history)

[meilodasreh]

15 minutes ago, Urban Blackbear said:

Can we talk about shell casing and how they disappear when I fire off bullets? A lot of survival games out there let you pick them back up. Free the brass!

yeah I like that too. Good thing I play a mod that adds a mod ("brass catcher") that does exactly this.

I only wonder what imaginary/simulated container there is to catch all the casings...oh wait, that is not vanilla, so screw it! 🤣

Edited December 11, 2023 by meilodasreh (see edit history)

[Rotor]

2 hours ago, Urban Blackbear said:

Can we talk about shell casing and how they disappear when I fire off bullets? A lot of survival games out there let you pick them back up. Free the brass!

There is a MOD for that as well.

[Urban Blackbear]

So you guys are saying mods are the answer. Interesting.

[Old Crow]

1 hour ago, Urban Blackbear said:

So you guys are saying mods are the answer. Interesting.

 

Essentially, yeah. The general Fun Pimps and Fun Simps answer here is "Don't like a change? Mod it."

[Rotor]

3 hours ago, Urban Blackbear said:

So you guys are saying mods are the answer. Interesting.

Well that is the answer thrown around when something don't jive.

[meilodasreh]

If I had to guess I'd say at least 80% of the people play 7D2D modded, because vanilla has so many things that are easily fixable via mods (e.g. lockable inventory slots, although this has found its way into vanilla now).

But from those lil qol features to complete theme-changing overhauls, there's so much to find.

 

Is there a way to see/distinguish how many people play it vanilla vs modded, maybe in the steam statistics?

[BFT2020]

On 12/8/2023 at 5:50 PM, meganoth said:

 

What you seem to miss is that the terms are used differently in the US and elsewhere (so it seems). If we regard the info on that UK website as somewhat accurate then at least in the UK a bolt is just a sub-category of screw and one that isn't exactly defined. So a bolt is a screw as well, but a screw might not be a bolt. 

 

I found multiple websites that had VERY different definitions of bolts and screws and their difference. The encyclopedia britannica seems not to adhere to your definition of screw and bolt as well.

 

you can call it a purple nurple if you want to, it really doesn’t bother me.  Get a funny smirk from me, but I deal with people using the incorrect terms all the time.  Important thing is that you use the correct fastener, whether it is a “screw” or a wheel bolt.  As long as that “screw” looks like those wheel bolts in the second picture.

[Riamus]

2 hours ago, meilodasreh said:

Is there a way to see/distinguish how many people play it vanilla vs modded, maybe in the steam statistics?

It wouldn't likely be very accurate even if you could, though I'm sure you can't.  The reason is that even adding one additional custom POI means the game isn't vanilla.  And although that isn't necessarily a mod, there are mods that are nothing other than additional POI and the game considers them to be mods and so any statistics would include those.  But do you consider custom POI to be mods as far as what you're talking about?  I'm guessing not, and I wouldn't either.  There are also so many different kinds of mods that don't really change the gameplay at all.  For example, is a custom UI really an indication that someone doesn't like how the vanilla game works, or just that they like a different UI?

 

I play the game mostly vanilla but I include additional POI, I modded a rollup door to offer a powered option, and I increased the durability of vehicles, and I have the UBBE mod to add additional items to the game (doors, windows, lights, etc).  None of that affects the vanilla experience all that much.  Is my game modded?  Yes.  Is it still essentially the vanilla game?  Yes.

 

On the other hand, you have overhaul mods that can make the game into an entirely different game... at least to an extent.  Where is the line between what still is essentially a vanilla experience even if modded versus something that is a significant change to the game?  You can look at it in a purely black and white light and say that any change whatsoever, including even one custom POI, is modded and compare that to those without any changes to the game.  That comparison probably will get you a very higher percentage of people playing a "modded" version.  But if you look at it more in terms of number of people playing what is still basically the vanilla game versus people playing a game that is significantly different, then that percent of "modded" games will be much lower.

 

In the end, my estimate is over 80% of players will eventually make at least one change to the game, even if it's just adding more POI.  That doesn't mean the vanilla game is not good enough for 80%+ of players, though.  And besides, it has been said that TFP want the vanilla game to be more of a starter experience with the expectation that players will use mods to increase the enjoyment of the game.  The fact that it is so easy to mod is a plus to the development plans for this game, imo.  They'll never please every player no matter what they do.  Accepting that and making the game easy to adjust to fit what each player might want is a good design choice.

[Ramethzer0]

15 hours ago, meilodasreh said:

So yes, the decision that TFP decided to get rid of emtpy containers does work gameplay wise, but with said downside.

Making water scarce is...questionable and may still be subject to further balancing.

 

You know, no one complained that we could loot gas without the benefit of a Jerry Can.

But, we let go of water jars - and now its grown into so many threads that just have gotten repetitive.

 

And I want to be clear and re-iterate for those that haven't seen the other threads that water is not nearly

as scarce as people make it out to be.   I know because I've tested this over and over again, and I've

really no interest in ruining someone's day by stating so.

 

If you make a concerted effort to seek out water, its not so bad.   I say this in lieu of 'Git gud',

but I'd be lying if that's not what the issue actually is.  People want water, but they want it easy.  Unfortunately,

some folks always want something easy.  I've read so many hardcores kicking this can around, waxing poetic about

how hard is water to come by in the same thread they talk about playing on higher difficulties with lower

loot percentages and it's like watching people kicking themselves in the shins and blaming TFP for it.

 

Early game water is an absolutely solvable problem, but it IS a problem.  There's meant to be meaning in that problem.

I mean I empathize that some folks could have a really bad go at it, if RNG goes bad - but that also adds to the

desperation of survival.  I'm kinda over the idea that some folks think this is not a survival game.  Water scarcity is

a defining characteristic of survival gameplay.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Ramethzer0 (see edit history)

[meganoth]

18 hours ago, meilodasreh said:

Especially in an "urban postapocalyptic suvival situation" - which obviously is exactly the theme of 7D2D - there should be an overabundance of empty ( or reusable full) containers which could be found all over the place, and you'd have no problem to get these (emtpy bottles and alike) and use them to collect water, fuel, and whatever other fluids you want and take it with you.

That obvious break of logic is what bugs people.

 

If you really think this is true then you should also find dozens of threads in the Valheim forums where they complain about missing food containers like bowls or plates.  See https://valheim.fandom.com/wiki/Food, you can see that the icons do have containers like cups and bowls. My search for "valheim forum missing containers" got zero applicable results though. And you probably won't claim that valheim is not survival, right?

 

Can you explain why there seems to be no discussion among valheim players about this?

 

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)