Fundamentals of Survivor

[Wave]

Removing bottles/cans is attempt to make game more difficult/balanced and funny. After longer time of playing having dozens of water jars in inventory makes game too easy and let say boring meaning there is no way how to develop further, it can be called we finished the game in some stage and there is no motivation to play further.

 

BUT removing bottles/cans etc means also removing the absolute BASIC FUNDAMENTAL ESSENCE of SURVIVAL. It is totally bind way how to move game somewhere.. It is like finding racing game too easy so lets remove steering wheels from cars. For god sake somebody is too much overworked if is able to think out something like this. The intents is fine but the realization is nonsense. I played almost 700 hours, I got back to game after almost two years, I found many amazing upgrades and improvements but no bottles??? Fukkk what is it? I need to boil water because I have tons of meat and want to boil it in water but there is fukking no way how to collect water from lake..??

Hey guys, I think that it would be totally enough to left 1 jar to player in inventory. I mean if I find 4 bottles with water/coffea whatever and I decide to drink them all so only from the last drink I got one empty jar/bottle..... the same if I had 1000 bottles. So only if I drink them all so from the last one an empty jar/bottle will stay in inventory. 

Please, consider it and give back some logic to game.

 

Game is amazing otherwise but as per my opinon this is step beside.

[Rotor]

"99 lead balloons go by..."

 

Isnt that how the song goes?

[rateds2k]

And we have now met our weekly quota of "bring back glass jars" Threads

[Rotor]

I believe it was established that glass JARS are no the real issue.

 

 

[meganoth]

3 hours ago, Wave said:

Removing bottles/cans is attempt to make game more difficult/balanced and funny. After longer time of playing having dozens of water jars in inventory makes game too easy and let say boring meaning there is no way how to develop further, it can be called we finished the game in some stage and there is no motivation to play further.

 

BUT removing bottles/cans etc means also removing the absolute BASIC FUNDAMENTAL ESSENCE of SURVIVAL. It is totally bind way how to move game somewhere.. It is like finding racing game too easy so lets remove steering wheels from cars. For god sake somebody is too much overworked if is able to think out something like this. The intents is fine but the realization is nonsense. I played almost 700 hours, I got back to game after almost two years, I found many amazing upgrades and improvements but no bottles??? Fukkk what is it? I need to boil water because I have tons of meat and want to boil it in water but there is fukking no way how to collect water from lake..??

Hey guys, I think that it would be totally enough to left 1 jar to player in inventory. I mean if I find 4 bottles with water/coffea whatever and I decide to drink them all so only from the last drink I got one empty jar/bottle..... the same if I had 1000 bottles. So only if I drink them all so from the last one an empty jar/bottle will stay in inventory. 

Please, consider it and give back some logic to game.

 

Game is amazing otherwise but as per my opinon this is step beside.

 

I can tell you you are not the first, and I am sure you are not the last guy that has been playing 700 hours and hasn't noticed that there are no gas cans in the game. And no containers to store all the food, at least the meat stew would definitely need one. No empty plastic bottles to store acid in them.

 

All of these containers were simply not simulated, you just knew they were there. Just now you noticed the glass jar, because it vanished in front of your eyes. Had the glass jar never been in the game like the other containers you would probably not even noticed anything missing.

 

 

 

Edited December 6, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Wave]

I wanted to say that making survival game by disabing fundamentals of survival in real life is not the way how to achieve good result, it is nonsense. I think one bottle in inventory as I explaned is maybe the solution. In real life you also do note take dozes of bottles because it is nonsense but much more nonsense is to do not have even one bottle....

[Roland]

Yeah, but it’s OUR nonsense. 

[Riamus]

1 hour ago, Wave said:

I wanted to say that making survival game by disabing fundamentals of survival in real life is not the way how to achieve good result, it is nonsense. I think one bottle in inventory as I explaned is maybe the solution. In real life you also do note take dozes of bottles because it is nonsense but much more nonsense is to do not have even one bottle....

I can tell you that there is no chance that jars or cans will ever be brought back in vanilla.  They intended to remove those and would have done so even if they didn't try to make water more of a challenge.  So there just isn't any chance of it. There is a mod, I believe, that adds them back if you really feel the need. 

 

Personally, I am glad they are gone as they just wasted space without really having value for me.  Yes, you could get tons of water easily, and that is what most people complain about with the change, but that could also be allowed without jars, so they weren't needed.  Other containers aren't there, so it isn't really a big deal, imo. 

 

You can let it bug you that it isn't realistic or immersive, or use a mod, or just accept that it is a game and enjoy it. 

 

I would bet that the lack of jars, in terms of immersion, will not affect your overall enjoyment of the game.  Dealing with water might, but that is a different issue.

 

I think that for anyone who wants to have the water mechanic improved (dew collectors aren't very good), suggesting ways to make it better that do not include glass jars is the more likely way to get something to change.  For example, people have suggested a late game water pump.

[Rotor]

8 minutes ago, Riamus said:

  For example, people have suggested a late game water pump.

 

It could be as simple as a bucket.  No need for new stuff.  But there has to be a will from the developer.

[Riamus]

39 minutes ago, Rotor said:

 

It could be as simple as a bucket.  No need for new stuff.  But there has to be a will from the developer.

People are already complaining about immersion.  If you gate a bucket to late game, people will still be upset.  After all, a bucket isn't going to be all that hard to make compared to most things in the game.

[Urban Blackbear]

This isn't Jar Simulator. People really need to get over this.

[BFT2020]

58 minutes ago, Urban Blackbear said:

This isn't Jar Simulator. People really need to get over this.

 

I can create a mod for you to do exactly that  😉

 

J/K, I like jars being removed and not really interested in that little side project  🤪

[Urban Blackbear]

1 minute ago, BFT2020 said:

 

I can create a mod for you to do exactly that  😉

 

J/K, I like jars being removed and not really interested in that little side project  🤪

 

Ever play The Long Dark? When I boil water in that game it just assumes I gathered snow. It doesn't make me run outside, gather snow in my pot and bring it back to set on the stove. Then the boiled water goes into a milk jug in the inventory. How large is this milk jug? As large as it needs to be. I can also place the water I've boiled down in the environment and it magically creates a plastic .5 liter water bottle filled with water from my milk jug of holding. I've ended snow storms in that game with probably 50 plastic water bottles stacked on a shelf. None of that bothers me. Neither does not having empty glass jars. I understand the choices in both situations were made for simplicities sake and to smooth gameplay.

[Ramethzer0]

12 hours ago, Wave said:

Please, consider it and give back some logic to game.

 

You know what else is also logical?   Looting water and using dew collectors.

[RStarphoenix]

I get the feeling the crying about jars/cans isn't because of mechanics, it's because people lost easy-mode survival with infinite water.
The more I hear justifications about why they should exist, the less reason they should exist. And we never needed them based on how the

game plays now. Water is still way too easy to collect & produce.

 

Logic would also mean we'd have empty jerry cans for gas, empty plastic bottles for oil, dirty dishes & bowls along with forks, knives & spoons, empty paper boxes for candy, coffee cans for the loose coffee grounds we find, containers for glue, syringes for meds, etc......

 

It's weird and illogical we don't have those in a real world environment, but in a fictional environment that logic don't apply.

[Wave]

Hey guys,
I understand to yours argumentation but apparently you did not get the point I am trying to explain. I love playing games on hard mode, especially survival games like this one. I set looting to 33% for example.

 

BUT, when I am thirsty, hungry, have some infection but still do not want to give up the game and die. I have one jar with murky water, I run thru forest and find small lake. Wau, it will safe my life. I make campfire at lake, I boil clear water from murky water on it, then I boil golden or red tea to cure some sickness but.... AND NOW IT IS THE POINT you probably dont understand, I am just next to lake and I need to fill the empty jar by murky water and boil another water and tea. BUT when I drunk the first tea, the jar disappeared so I am judged to drink murky water from lake and DIEEEEE. And this is nonsense. The game is over because when I drink tea from jar, the jar then disappears. I do not have skills or time to make some dew collector. So as per you the logic is run back to some city and find another jar there? And again, for you who cannot read probably, I totally agree that having dozens of jars, bottles etc. is nonsense and too easy and boring etc. and I also would like to rebalance it. So my opinion that having still only one jar or bottle in inventory is the better solution than completely removing them. You can find dozens jars of water by looting and have them in inventory, ok, it was loot. Then, after drinking the first of them, the jar will disappear, ok, no problem, after drinking another the same, one less jar in inventory but after drinking the last one, so the last jar will stay in inventory.

Is it clear? Is it enough of explanation that I am not crying but just suggesting more logic to survival mechanism?


 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Wave (see edit history)

[meganoth]

16 minutes ago, Wave said:

Hey guys,
I understand to yours argumentation but apparently you did not get the point I am trying to explain. I love playing games on hard mode, especially survival games like this one. I set looting to 33% for example.

 

BUT, when I am thirsty, hungry, have some infection but still do not want to give up the game and die. I have one jar with murky water, I run thru forest and find small lake. Wau, it will safe my life. I make campfire at lake, I boil clear water from murky water on it, then I boil golden or red tea to cure some sickness but.... AND NOW IT IS THE POINT you probably dont understand, I am just next to lake and I need to fill the empty jar by murky water and boil another water and tea. BUT when I drunk the first tea, the jar disappeared so I am judged to drink murky water from lake and DIEEEEE. And this is nonsense. The game is over because when I drink tea from jar, the jar then disappears. I do not have skills or time to make some dew collector. So as per you the logic is run back to some city and find another jar there? And again, for you who cannot read probably, I totally agree that having dozens of jars, bottles etc. is nonsense and too easy and boring etc. and I also would like to rebalance it. So my opinion that having still only one jar or bottle in inventory is the better solution than completely removing them. You can find dozens jars of water by looting and have them in inventory, ok, it was loot. Then, after drinking the first of them, the jar will disappear, ok, no problem, after drinking another the same, one less jar in inventory but after drinking the last one, so the last jar will stay in inventory.

Is it clear? Is it enough of explanation that I am not crying but just suggesting more logic to survival mechanism?


 

 

If I understand you correctly, you have a method for emergencies and that includes having always a jar of tea with you. When you find yourself without water you then go to a lake, drink that tea and make new tea on the spot. Is that correct that way?

 

If yes, then it seems you want to preserve a specific modus operandi you got used to and forgot to think about new ways on how to handle such an emergency. For example hoard vitamins for those emergencies. Eat a vitamin and you can drink from a lake without chance of getting dysentery, and the hit points can be replenished with food or the usual medication. If you are playing nomad I assume you always have a workbench with you, so why not have a dew collector with you as well that you always set up when you really need some water?

 

 

[Wave]

The survivor game is normally based on how things are going i real life if I am correct. If you are alone in nature and have 1 bottle with you, so you can collect water to stay alive, you can also boil the water... so as per you staying bottle in inventory after drinking the water from it is some kind of magic or what? I think it is the normal in real life or am I living in another dimension?. The bottle is even one of the most important things you need to have with you It is fundamental, essence of living in nature to have something to collect water and use it.

I imagine Bear Grylls how he drinks water from his bottle and then die because after he drink it the bottle will disappear in his hand 😄 What a glorious reality.

That is all. Now lets find some ball to to play football and after kick off the ball will disappear and we can go to find the new one but just need to remember who has the ball after the kick off. Or maybe we can build some factory next to the playground and produce balls there.  What an amazing challenge and upgrade.

[meganoth]

37 minutes ago, Wave said:

The survivor game is normally based on how things are going i real life if I am correct. If you are alone in nature and have 1 bottle with you, so you can collect water to stay alive, you can also boil the water... so as per you staying bottle in inventory after drinking the water from it is some kind of magic or what? I think it is the normal in real life or am I living in another dimension?. The bottle is even one of the most important things you need to have with you It is fundamental, essence of living in nature to have something to collect water and use it.

I imagine Bear Grylls how he drinks water from his bottle and then die because after he drink it the bottle will disappear in his hand 😄 What a glorious reality.

That is all. Now lets find some ball to to play football and after kick off the ball will disappear and we can go to find the new one but just need to remember who has the ball after the kick off. Or maybe we can build some factory next to the playground and produce balls there.  What an amazing challenge and upgrade.

 

What we are trying to tell you is that containers like the water jars exist in the world of 7 days to die, but they are NOT simulated as separate items.

 

Just like you don't have a screwdriver in 7 days to die, even though you need one to construct some of the machines in the game. It is just implied that a screwdriver exists whenever you want one.

 

Or another example: Have you ever seen a nut or bolt in the game? Have you ever crafted or found nuts/bolts? Have you ever worked with a nut when building a 4x4 and attaching a tire to the 4x4 ? Have you ever attached a steering wheel to the 4x4? Yes, you must have done all these things in this game, but you never have seen them as separate parts on screen that you handle or work on or attach. They are not simulated in the game, it is implied that you used them whenever you needed to build a 4x4.

 

Why are there no nuts and bolts? Because those items are assumed to be everywhere and easy to get. Why simulate them when there is no gameplay value in using them and it would be boring micro-management to collect or craft them.

 

The same with jars. They exist and whenever you need one it is implied you have one. For example when you find water, you automatically have a jar (or other container) to store the water in it. And when you use the water, you still have those containers but they are simply not shown.

 

Same with gas cans. You have them whenever you need them. Find a car and wrench it, you automatically have gas cans to store that gasoline. Fill the gasoline into your 4x4 and you still have those gas cans, but you simply can't interact with them, not see them in your inventory, they are not simulated, just implied.

 

Edited December 7, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[BFT2020]

4 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Or another example: Have you ever seen a screw in the game? Have you ever fixed a screw when building a 4x4 and attaching a tire to the 4x4 ? Have you ever attached a steering wheel to the 4x4? Yes, you must have done all these things in this game, but you never have seen them as separate parts on screen that you handle or work on or attach.

 

Uh those are typically nuts / bolts, not screws.  You don't screw a tire onto a vehicle, you attached it to the studs and drive a nut down to keep it in place.  Remind me to never allow meganoth to work on any of my vehicles  🤪

 

I mean, you can use screws instead of bolts if that is your desire, but I would recommend nobody ride with you in your 4x4😁

[meganoth]

2 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

 

Uh those are typically nuts / bolts, not screws.  You don't screw a tire onto a vehicle, you attached it to the studs and drive a nut down to keep it in place.  Remind me to never allow meganoth to work on any of my vehicles  🤪

 

I mean, you can use screws instead of bolts if that is your desire, but I would recommend nobody ride with you in your 4x4😁

Thanks for the correction, I will re-edit my post and then your post will look strangely out of place 😁

[Roland]

20 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Thanks for the correction, I will re-edit my post and then your post will look strangely out of place 😁

 

Ha! You really bolted BFT over with that move.

[theFlu]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

What we are trying to tell you is that containers like the water jars exist in the world of 7 days to die, but they are NOT simulated as separate items.

His point seems to be same most other complainer's; our character seems @%$#ed at the lake, unable to pick up water in to the unlimited water jars available everywhere. The phrasing is about jars since that's what the significant change is, but the main point is still the "unable to purify lake water" mechanic suuuucks.

 

As long as you keep arguing about the "jar simulation", you're never going actually reach anyone who complains about the change, because that's not the logic breaking / conflicting issue at hand. Having a puddle of water you can drink out of, but can't utilize as "water" seems to be.

 

In case I'm just projecting my own issues, here's how I see it: the OP wants to have "one jar"; that "one jar" would be permanent and allow the work of boiling the lake water to be used for whatever. As long as the jar is permanent, it's essentially the same as having plenty - you'll just have to do your mass production sequentially. His phrasing of the issue points to "having a way to handle natural waters is survival essentials" and yes, that to me sounds exactly the same as "not being able to purify lake water suuuuucks as an idea".

[Wave]

I think that 1 permanent jar does not make game easy. Dozens of jars is nonsense and it does but only 1 is normal thing. It is the first and the last thing in your inventory in real life when trying to survive. You can include some mechanism that when zombie hits you there will be some change that jar will be broken and you will loose it. If you have only 1 jar, you need to decide if you take water, tea or coffea to your next traveling to unknown place. When you drink it because of thirsty on a way so then you have to find some source of water. I you set to generate map with few lakes and rivers, then it can be very funny challange. 
I really understand what you want to achieve but the way is not logic. In real life, you will not loose jar or bottle after drinking from it. It is true, simply. In this game now loosing it makes confusion and my next step is not to fill jar by water from lake a stay next to it but it forces me to go find new one what is not challenge but stupidity, sorry for it.

So you can also disabling harvesting wood and only wood wich you can have is which you find by looting. You have axe, chainsaw....but cannot harvest wood. It is the same.

 

According to me balacing the game to be more challenging is about setting limits and not about removing real life mechanism.

Anyway, I respect all of you creating this game, it is mastepiese despite of my claiming


 

[Rotor]

14 hours ago, Urban Blackbear said:

 

Ever play The Long Dark? When I boil water in that game it just assumes I gathered snow. It doesn't make me run outside, gather snow in my pot and bring it back to set on the stove. Then the boiled water goes into a milk jug in the inventory.

 

Never played it, but I believe is a snow biome only, right?  how do you get to the point of having the "snow"?  It assumes since you are there you can gather it, right?

 

That there sounds pretty easy to me.

 

So, in essence those with the "issue" (me included) are not asking for the Jars to come back.  They are asking for an ability to go by water and collect it and boil it.  If the developers want to make "easy mode" like you describe, then make me be near the water.  I dont see where "braving" the elements and going to get water is "easier" than what you describe.

 

However, there are items in the game to allow you to collect it.  Just removing a mechanic because they needed to align the "item" and hoping it would make it harder as well is a failure. 

 

In closing IT IS NOT about the Jars.