About shopkeeper rewards

[ogro]

Hi!, 

 

Regarding alpha 21, I wanted to comment on how the rewards that the shopkeepers give for doing missions completely break the progression in the branch that we are developing.

 

Strength branch, I can make level 3 pump shotguns, and the shopkeeper gives me level 6 automatic shotgun

 

I take the automatic weapons branch, I can do the penultimate (next one to ak47)  level 4 one, and the shopkeeper rewards me with a level 6 mg60

 

I gradually improve armor (medium or heavy), but the shopkeeper gives me an almost complete set of level 6

 

I think it breaks the progression a little

 

Greetings!

[RipClaw]

You forgot to mention for what types of quests you got this rewards. Rewards are always based on the quest type and the quest tier.

[Ramethzer0]

Yeah there are a LOT of factors that will go into rewards that will seem steep, and don't forget that the POI's for such high rewards can be in locations that can propel those numbers.

[ogro]

Hi again

 

Im speaking about tier V missions (and VI). Ok, are high tier missions but:

 

- I think you reach too easy to high tiers, so, natural  progression is broken

- It would be better (IMHO) that high tier mission could give you good equipment but in your actual build definition. Example:

 

- im working in strengh build, with shotgun and im in pump shotgun, level 3 por example;  i make a tier V missions; if game gives me a good weapon, perhaps could give a level 4-5 pump shotgun, not a level 5-6 automatic shotgun.

[Callum123456789]

I think the only way to combat this would be to double or triple the quests needed to progress them or make quest rewards tied to a specific game stage/loot stage group let's say you have a trader stage of 120 you may get higher tier rewards for a tier 5 like a level 5 smg but if you do a tier 5 quest at trader stage 40 it will only be a low level pistol for an example so there'd be less incentive to quest rush for good gear early on.

 

 

 

I'm not entirely sure if this idea of Mine would work but ever since quests were introduced I always thought the rewards should be based on the player level so that thr rewards aren't fixed and can be guaranteed for end game gear.

[RipClaw]

5 hours ago, ogro said:

Hi again

 

Im speaking about tier V missions (and VI). Ok, are high tier missions but:

 

- I think you reach too easy to high tiers, so, natural  progression is broken

- It would be better (IMHO) that high tier mission could give you good equipment but in your actual build definition. Example:

It depends on what you mean by natural progression. To get to T5 you have to do 28 quests. My understanding of natural progression is that you only do one quest a day on average.

 

5 hours ago, ogro said:

- im working in strengh build, with shotgun and im in pump shotgun, level 3 por example;  i make a tier V missions; if game gives me a good weapon, perhaps could give a level 4-5 pump shotgun, not a level 5-6 automatic shotgun.

Currently, quest rewards are simply randomly selected from a predefined loot table. To implement your suggestion, the game would need to evaluate your skills and then adjust the reward. This is not currently implemented.

 

[meganoth]

2 hours ago, RipClaw said:

It depends on what you mean by natural progression. To get to T5 you have to do 28 quests. My understanding of natural progression is that you only do one quest a day on average.

 

 

What else should a guy do in the first days? Even if you look at it in-character: He could just scrounge some random POIs he walks by. But there is a guy (the trader) that gives 100% of the stuff you find in a POI on top if you loot not the next one but a different one he tells you. You would be mad to not take him up on that offer.

 

All arguments about doing many quests per day seem to boil down to "don't min/max, stay in character". But here is the problem, someone doing lots of quests is staying perfectly in character for a **scavenger** type guy. He loots many POIs per day anyway, so why not add what the trader gives practically for free on top?

 

The only reasons I see to not do it are either because he doesn't play a scavenger (in other words why RipClaw does it) or because someone knows that the trader is OP. And this again means: The trader has to be nerfed.

 

Limiting the number of quests you can do per day is one possibility, even in MP with shared quests: Just make it so that a player can only **return** a specific number of quests per day.

 

Edited October 16, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[8_Hussars]

9 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

 so why not add what the trader gives practically for free on top?

 

IMHO this is the root of the problem.  Trader Quests are so lucratively rewarded by the loot tables most players can't resist or won't resist.  It has become the default play style for so many they often just think its how the game is "supposed" to be played.

I would advocate for a barter system where you know what the reward and commitment is beforehand.  Want a bike, do this , this, this, and that.  Want a T6 Widget, do significantly more.  I would like to see a much better balance between questable loot rewards and the Trader Bonuses.      

[RipClaw]

21 minutes ago, meganoth said:

What else should a guy do in the first days? Even if you look at it in-character. He could also just scrounge some random POIs he walks by. But there is a guy there that gives 100% of the stuff you find in a POI on top if you loot not the next one but a different one he tells you. You would be mad to not take him up on that offer.

Maybe I'm just particularly slow, but I don't manage to complete more than 1-2 quests a day in the first week. Whether it's a fetch quest or a clear quest, I always loot the whole POI. I know that is inefficient but I don't care.

 

Priorities for the first week are finding or building a safe base, getting water and food supplies, setup production and building a horde base for the first few hordes.

Later, I usually build a base for the endgame hordes or expand the first horde base. This usually takes a few days or even weeks, so I don't do any quests during that time. So on average I do one quest a day.

 

37 minutes ago, 8_Hussars said:

MHO this is the root of the problem.  Trader Quests are so lucratively rewarded by the loot tables most players can't resist or won't resist.  It has become the default play style for so many they often just think its how the game is "supposed" to be played.

The question is, what would be a fair reward for the amount of effort it takes to clear a T5 POI? At the start of A21, the quest rewards for T4, T5 and T6 were no better than T3. People were complaining. No one was motivated to do higher quests.

 

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, RipClaw said:

Maybe I'm just particularly slow, but I don't manage to complete more than 1-2 quests a day in the first week. Whether it's a fetch quest or a clear quest, I always loot the whole POI. I know that is inefficient but I don't care.

 

Well I do the same, and in my MP group we also loot the whole POI. And I would say SP I can do nearly 2 quests a day on average. And you can multiply that by 2 with a group. It also depends on the difficulty level you set and other factors (like how much time you use for base building, how much of that time is done in the night, and how completely you wrench down a poi or whether you delegate some of that to the night)

 

1 hour ago, RipClaw said:

Priorities for the first week are finding or building a safe base, getting water and food supplies, setup production and building a horde base for the first few hordes.

Later, I usually build a base for the endgame hordes or expand the first horde base. This usually takes a few days or even weeks, so I don't do any quests during that time. So on average I do one quest a day.

 

Yeah well, I said you are different type of player. I don't think many players use dedicated weeks for building a horde base.

 

1 hour ago, RipClaw said:

The question is, what would be a fair reward for the amount of effort it takes to clear a T5 POI? At the start of A21, the quest rewards for T4, T5 and T6 were no better than T3. People were complaining. No one was motivated to do higher quests.

 

No surprise, the rewards for T1-3 are already too much, so to motivate players to do T4-T5 those need OP rewards as well.

 

The rewards have a reason, to get players to quest together there is this additional reward for each player besides the loot. I still would assume that for example with half that bonus on top players would do quests together, since there is also the increased speed and safety. A balance thing.

And if they can't get low enough with the rewards then the second option is always to slow down the tier advancement or actually make quests per day limited. Or make reward quality dependant on your level so you can't outrace your main progression.

 

 

Edited October 16, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Ramethzer0]

In a matter of perspective, wasn't there a big discussion about random loot generation being somewhat key to the disparity between now and

the days of the good ol' Alpha 16.4?    I recall big random wins were somewhat critical for progression (thinking mostly about the AK, Pump shotty and the minibike specifically) and the argument about how thinning that loot table became in the time since.

 

Currently, we have the best of both of those worlds.   I think some folks may have forgotten that.   I'm not against rethinking loot, but I want people

to know there's a reason we got to this point in the first place.

[8_Hussars]

2 hours ago, RipClaw said:

The question is, what would be a fair reward for the amount of effort it takes to clear a T5 POI? At the start of A21, the quest rewards for T4, T5 and T6 were no better than T3. People were complaining. No one was motivated to do higher quests.

 

I suspect the "Clearing a T5 POI" or "Quest/Dungeon" paradigm TFP have created, is its own worst enemy.  Why should there be a reward other than the XP and loot the T5 provided for clearing it?  Maybe the only reward is trader reputation bonus for cheaper and better Trader items.  Maybe the reward is a Flare Gun and flare to call in a Supply Drop.  Maybe the reward is parts to a radio to make contact with the outside world to organize a rescue (to move the story mode along.)

 
Where the balance point should be to make the majority of players happy, who knows?  I will say that my current no trader play though has been one of the more enjoyable ones.  Looting when, where, and how much is quite liberating, opposed to grinding out trader quests ad nauseum to outpace the progression.

That's why I like a mission/barter system.  I choose the reward (not rewards or loot table) and gets tasks assigned.  e.g. want a Chem Station then three T4 clears, two T5 clears, nnn resources, and  some dukes (Regardless of level).  Want a T5 Steel club then...

Arguably finding the balance point is just as difficult (or more so) but I suspect players may enjoy the approach more as they have some agency against RNG and to fill the holes in their character's development.  Then again with the amount of mods out there to make the relative easy 7d2d game, easier and faster, I may be way off base.

Edited October 16, 2023 by 8_Hussars (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

59 minutes ago, 8_Hussars said:

I suspect the "Clearing a T5 POI" or "Quest/Dungeon" paradigm TFP have created, is its own worst enemy.  Why should there be a reward other than the XP and loot the T5 provided for clearing it? 

XP and loot alone are not enough incentive to spend time and ammo.

 

The loot in T5 POIs is not much different from T1 POIs. You get a slight loot bonus, but if I compare a T5 POI in the Pine Forest to a T1 POI in the Wasteland, for example, the T1 POI will give me better loot, and in the same time it takes me to clear a T5 POI, I could clear several T1 POIs. And there are more effective ways to get a lot of XP than spending a bunch of ammo killing zombies. 
 

You can also look at it in-character. The quest is a job. Why should I take a job that doesn't pay?

 

1 hour ago, 8_Hussars said:

Where the balance point should be to make the majority of players happy, who knows?  I will say that my current no trader play though has been one of the more enjoyable ones.  Looting when, where, and how much is quite liberating, opposed to grinding out trader quests ad nauseum to outpace the progression.

Before there were quests, I hardly ever looted. I find looting very boring. That's why I like quests. I drive or walk to where the trader sends me and do my job. It also allows me to explore the map without driving around for no reason.
 

1 hour ago, 8_Hussars said:

That's why I like a mission/barter system.  I choose the reward (not rewards or loot table) and gets tasks assigned.  e.g. want a Chem Station then three T4 clears, two T5 clears, nnn resources, and  some dukes (Regardless of level).  Want a T5 Steel club then...

That would certainly be an interesting mechanic.

[Uncle Al]

I certainly feel that quest rewards should either be synched with lootstage/traderstage, or item rewards should be removed altogether.

 

Removing item rewards would work fine if the the balance between how quests done and daring adventurer affect traderstage was reworked. Currently, daring adventurer massively overshadows quests done, which pretty much makes doing quests to unlock better gear for sale irrelevant.

 

With 'how good gear I can buy from the trader' powerfully dependent on quests done, and quests providing (maybe slightly more than current) cash, you effectively have a self balancing reward system that's linked to player level. Doing quests gets you money AND makes better gear available to buy, effectively allowing you to pick your own rewards, but the gear available is still restricted by your level, because level factors into traderstage.

 

My own view is 'do I drive a km to raid this house I'm not really interested in, because the trader will pay me to do it, or hit the garage a couple of hundred meters away so I can get the tool mags I want?' should be a hard choice. Currently you just do the quest 100% of the time, and the trader probably hands you a top quality tool anyway.

[Roland]

It’s funny to me when people wonder what else there is to do if not quest….as if the game was somehow unplayable for all those years before trader quests were added. 
 

That being said the solution really should be a selectable option. Reducing quest rewards, lengthening the quest chain for the next tier, and limiting quests per day/week are great for slowing down speed runners but then everyone else playing at a normal pace may feel like it takes too long to get to decent rewards but then those rewards aren’t worth it compared to what I can already craft, etc. 

 

Let the speedsters complain that they get endgame stuff by the end of the first week but let’s not “balance” the game to their pace unless it is simply selectable options for number of quests allowed per day or week, number of quests needed to complete a tier, and rewards options like cash only or loot and cash. 

[Uncle Al]

4 hours ago, Roland said:

It’s funny to me when people wonder what else there is to do if not quest….as if the game was somehow unplayable for all those years before trader quests were added. 
 

That being said the solution really should be a selectable option. Reducing quest rewards, lengthening the quest chain for the next tier, and limiting quests per day/week are great for slowing down speed runners but then everyone else playing at a normal pace may feel like it takes too long to get to decent rewards but then those rewards aren’t worth it compared to what I can already craft, etc. 

 

Let the speedsters complain that they get endgame stuff by the end of the first week but let’s not “balance” the game to their pace unless it is simply selectable options for number of quests allowed per day or week, number of quests needed to complete a tier, and rewards options like cash only or loot and cash. 

 

It's not 'what to do if not quest?', it's 'quests are so good, why do anything else?'. And sure, this debate about 'just limit yourself to totally suboptimal playstyles, you'll have more fun' has meandered around on these boards for a while, but I don't feel it's a strong argument. There's a gap between 'minmaxers will find the path that's very slightly better than the others and pursue that exclusively' and 'doing one thing is so much better than all the others it seems like perverse game play to ignore it'.

 

I'm not asking for perfect balance, I'm asking for BETTER balance. Currently the divide between questing and not questing is vast, in terms of rewards. Good game design does require that the player makes difficult, meaningful choices. When one choice is always better, in every situation, you've removed player agency.

 

It's not some weird outlier 'speedrunners' breaking what would otherwise be a balanced system, either.

 

When Tier 2 quests give out Q5 iron tools and weapons you're invariably going to have a situation where quest rewards totally outstrip what you can do for yourself, whether by buying, looting or crafting.

 

Q6 steel weapons at Tier 4 doesn't help either, but you do at least have to do a significant number of quests for that.

 

The other major factor is that there's almost zero opportunity cost to doing quests. 'The rewards aren't worth it' never applies because the rewards are just a freebie on top of normal loot and exp for that POI. Sure if quest POIs had an empty final loot room or something, then we might get the hard choices back (do I loot where I want or do what the trader wants?) but currently the small price of having to loot a specific POI, rather than chosing a target freely, is a tiny price to pay compared to the quality of extra rewards on offer.

[Diragor]

Easy Fix. Quest Rewards shouldn't include full weapons/tools/armor. Only parts, ressources, food, medicine etc.

Edited October 17, 2023 by Diragor (see edit history)

[theFlu]

Hmm.. was wanting to reply to RipClaw's priority list, but doing so felt a little forced, but as Roland's pointing this out, I think I have to:

9 hours ago, Roland said:

It’s funny to me when people wonder what else there is to do if not quest….as if the game was somehow unplayable for all those years before trader quests were added.

 

Yeah, Ripclaw's first week prios have plenty of else to do:

19 hours ago, RipClaw said:

Priorities for the first week are finding or building a safe base, getting water and food supplies, setup production and building a horde base for the first few hordes.

 

In practice:

- finding or building a safe base; first quest target, remove a ladder / stair, done. If the first one is horrible, pick a later one.

- water and food supplies .. easiest to find in quest rewards, you do get some looting, but .. why not.

- setup production; skill books, quest/loot only, some parts you might have to scav for

- build a starter horde base, cobblestone / concrete from trader stock.

 

Plenty of things to do "other than" but they all lead straight back to "than".

[8_Hussars]

  

17 hours ago, RipClaw said:

The loot in T5 POIs is not much different from T1 POIs. You get a slight loot bonus, but if I compare a T5 POI in the Pine Forest to a T1 POI in the Wasteland, for example, the T1 POI will give me better loot, and in the same time it takes me to clear a T5 POI, I could clear several T1 POIs. And there are more effective ways to get a lot of XP than spending a bunch of ammo killing zombies.

You can also look at it in-character. The quest is a job. Why should I take a job that doesn't pay?

Maybe I am just looking for the holy grail here and hoping TFP can balance more than one approach to the game.   I don't really mind setting my own constraints, but I do wish there was a strategic choice (with drawbacks) to looting what I need to survive, craft, and protect myself and just rushing quests. 

  

17 hours ago, RipClaw said:

Before there were quests, I hardly ever looted. I find looting very boring. That's why I like quests. I drive or walk to where the trader sends me and do my job. It also allows me to explore the map without driving around for no reason.

I hate looting too (prefer to build) but as I stated earlier I took an opposite approach (no quests) and am enjoying the play through more.  Certainly, there should be multiple approaches to the games progression that are viable.  Unfortunately, most players are stuck in the Trader Quest loop for the OP rewards and the fast progression as the only way to play.  Or maybe my outlook is just clouded by CCs almost exclusively doing that for short duration run on their channels.

[Riamus]

I think that tying quest rewards to your crafting is a bad option to correct the OP rewards we have.  If someone doesn't want to craft and just wants to sell the magazines, they shouldn't be getting tier 1 rewards in tier 5/6 quests.  That just doesn't make sense.  The same if you're in a MP group and others do the crafting, you shouldn't lose out on good rewards just because you're not the one reading the magazines.

 

If you want to tie rewards to the player instead of just a random item based on tiers, then it should be tied to player level + quest tier.  Not to magazines/crafting.  But even that can outpace crafting depending on how much you're looking for magazines.

 

When it comes down to it, it would be better to start by revamping the magazines as they aren't really working well as it is.  And just reduce quest rewards some from the loot tables.

[pApA^LeGBa]

@RolandAs you have to do quests early on to be able to buy water filters, we can´t just say we take it slow so the quest rewards don´t overtake us in progression. Especially in MP Coop you need a lot of water from the beginning. It´s not about speeding. It´s about beeing able to get a steady supply of water without beeing dependent on looting only. 5-6 players in a coop do need a LOT of water.

 

There needs to be a lot of balancing done regarding quest rewards. That´s not an opion because we want to speed trough, it´s because we need to "speed" trough. It´s a direct consequence of the new water system.

Edited October 17, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Whorhay]

I'd really like to see a better or more thoughtful trader system. My suggestions:

Remove item rewards from regular quests.

 

Every quest gets tagged with a trader tab type, completing that quest permanently improves the traders corresponding tab by increasing the number of items they can stock, the quality range of those items, and stack size ranges.

Remove Tier completion bonus and replace with a thanks for all the help bonus that can be repeated every 5 - 10 completions of a given tier with item rewards that are capped by player game stage + some bonus based on Tier, possibly affected by skills.

Turning in a Fetch or Buried supplies quest immediately adds a number of items to the traders inventory tied to the trader tab type that the quest was identified as.

 

Change trader restock to a nightly thing, but make it more of a gradual process where a few items for sale get selected for re-rolling to mimic inventory turnover. Give higher tier and higher quality items a heavier weighting for selection to be re-rolled.

 

 

For me I like doing trader quests but often times the item rewards are pretty bad and it just comes down to picking the item with the best resale value. The Tier completion rewards are usually what I'm really after in order to get vehicles and crafting stations. The main determining factor when doing quests early is how far I have to travel. Before I have a vehicle I won't go more than a few hundred meters, and I definitely won't travel 1k+ until I've gotten to the minibike if at all possible. Otherwise the travel time and corresponding food/water consumption just doesn't feel worth it.

[Whorhay]

10 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

@RolandAs you have to do quests early on to be able to buy water filters, we can´t just say we take it slow so the quest rewards don´t overtake us in progression. Especially in MP Coop you need a lot of water from the beginning. It´s not about speeding. It´s about beeing able to get a steady supply of water without beeing dependent on looting only. 5-6 players in a coop do need a LOT of water.

 

There needs to be a lot of balancing done regarding quest rewards. That´s not an opion because we want to speed trough, it´s because we need to speed trough. It´s a direct consequence of the new water system.

 

I haven't done a MP game since the water changes, but in SP I haven't really noticed needing dew collectors. I always loot plenty of dirty water, and dew collectors become more about skipping the need to boil it first. That said I don't usually play in such a way that I need lots of duct tape early on either. For MP is it feasible to make golden rod tea and combine that with pond water to get by?

[pApA^LeGBa]

@Whorhay It´s more about duct tape, but yes also drinking. You need a lot of duct tape for crafting for 5 or 6. Also the drinking out of a pond is pretty clunky, i need a few attempts everytime until i get the prompt.

Edited October 17, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[meganoth]

50 minutes ago, Whorhay said:

 

I haven't done a MP game since the water changes, but in SP I haven't really noticed needing dew collectors. I always loot plenty of dirty water, and dew collectors become more about skipping the need to boil it first. That said I don't usually play in such a way that I need lots of duct tape early on either. For MP is it feasible to make golden rod tea and combine that with pond water to get by?

 

It is as feasable as walking 1k to the next quest