Concerning Magazines and Learn-By-Reading...

[Weazelsun]

One thing I have noticed specifically for me, is that the game does seem to have a high chance of club skill book even when not specced into it. That's just sometihing personally for me. I do like the fact though, that I can cheese the game in a sense? Like on the multiplayer server I play on, I had the admin the wipe my character and start back at level 1. Well, this is more of a biome-loot multiplayer in effect. But, I do like that by putting points in specific skills and staying in the snow biome. I've basically managed to get lots of skill books to unlock stuff. Like, I decided to spec into the stun baton and have managed to find a tier 3 stun baton just recently. 

[pApA^LeGBa]

I have now played enough with the new magazine system to be sure, that i will avoid it at every cost. Until there is a standalone mod that either brings back A20 system or introduces a good LBD with perks and level restrictions, i will only play overhauls that do not use the magazine system.

 

RNG for skills shouldn´t be a thing. There is a good reason basically no other games do have RNG when it comes to skills. That´s a typical case of "Just because you are unique, doesn´t mean you are usefull"

 

A good LBD system, with perks and level restrictions so that you can´t max out anything too fast, seems like a good option again since A21 hit.

 

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Kalen]

3 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

A good LBD system, with perks and level restrictions so that you can´t max out anything too fast, seems like a good option again since A21 hit.

 

Its a moot point.... and I KNOW its a moot point because TFP have been very clear that LBD is not coming back.   But, just for fun:

 

LBD could've worked with 2 additions, IMO.

 

1. Item based skill caps.   What I mean by that is spam crafting stone axes only gets you so far.   It used to be you could get to max level with stone axes alone.   There should've been a restriction where items stop giving skill points when you reach certain thresholds.  Maybe stone axes only get you to 25 skill.... iron picks get you 50.... steel gets you to max.   Something like that.

 

2. Diminishing returns.   I would've had it so that if you spam craft something, over time the chance of gaining a skill gets less and less.   For example, if you spam craft 100 items.   Maybe the first 10 items have a 90% chance of giving you a skill point.   The next 10 items have a 50% chance.... and so on until you just stop gaining skill entirely.  Taking a break will eventually make that system reset so you're back to 90%.   This would eliminate the benefit of just sitting in your base and crafting non stop to level up.

 

 

[meganoth]

3 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

RNG for skills shouldn´t be a thing. There is a good reason basically no other games do have RNG when it comes to skills. That´s a typical case of "Just because you are unique, doesn´t mean you are usefull"

 

You mean RNG like schematics you find in loot? Which has been in almost all alphas of 7D2D until now. With my bad memory I can't name examples, except Arcanum, Wasteland 2/3 and Fallout 3, but schematics in loot have been in lots of games.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

31 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

You mean RNG like schematics you find in loot? Which has been in almost all alphas of 7D2D until now. With my bad memory I can't name examples, except Arcanum, Wasteland 2/3 and Fallout 3, but schematics in loot have been in lots of games.

 

 

Recipes aren´t crafting skills. There is a difference. And yes, recipes should be unlocked by perks aswell. But still, crafting skills and recipes are two different things.

 

@Kalen Yeah i know the opinion from TFP on LBD. I never wanted it back from TFP anyways. They would never introduce level caps and that is very necessary.  Look at Darkness Falls. It has a LBD system with perks for crafting skills and things like iron gut and such. Spam crafting doesn´t do anything for your crafting skill at all, the LBD part is only for action skills, like scavenging, atlethics and  using a weapon/tool. Crafting skills are bought with skill points. The only thing you can spam is maybe atlethics in the first few nights. And you have level restrictions so you can´t rush any crafting skill or other perk. It´s a steady, well flowing progression. Recipes do exist, but you can unlock everything with perks.

Edited October 4, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[meganoth]

6 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

Recipes aren´t crafting skills. There is a difference. And yes, recipes should be unlocked by perks aswell. But still, crafting skills and recipes are two different things.

 

Explain. I don't get it:

 

Schematic - You find a schematic, you can suddenly craft something new

Magazine - You find a number of magazines, you can suddenly craft something new

 

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Kalen]

1 minute ago, meganoth said:

Explain. I don't get it

 

The ability to craft a M60 is a recipe

The ability to craft a QL5 M60 instead of a QL2 M60 is a crafting skill

 

I'm fine with the first one being random, based on the magazines you find.   I don't like that the second one is also RNG based.

 

[meganoth]

3 minutes ago, Kalen said:

 

The ability to craft a M60 is a recipe

The ability to craft a QL5 M60 instead of a QL2 M60 is a crafting skill

 

I'm fine with the first one being random, based on the magazines you find.   I don't like that the second one is also RNG based.

 

 

Ah right, forgot that detail

 

[binf_shinana]

19 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

 

Recipes aren´t crafting skills. There is a difference. And yes, recipes should be unlocked by perks aswell. But still, crafting skills and recipes are two different things.

 

@Kalen Yeah i know the opinion from TFP on LBD. I never wanted it back from TFP anyways. They would never introduce level caps and that is very necessary.  Look at Darkness Falls. It has a LBD system with perks for crafting skills and things like iron gut and such. Spam crafting doesn´t do anything for your crafting skill at all, the LBD part is only for action skills, like scavenging, atlethics and  using a weapon/tool. Crafting skills are bought with skill points. The only thing you can spam is maybe atlethics in the first few nights. And you have level restrictions so you can´t rush any crafting skill or other perk. It´s a steady, well flowing progression. Recipes do exist, but you can unlock everything with perks.

DFが完璧な回答であるような意見は、ここのフォーラムでかなり見かけるような気がします。

バニラはDFに置き換えられるべきでしょうか？

 

I feel like I see quite a few opinions on this forum where DF is the perfect answer.
Should vanilla be replaced by DF?

Edited October 4, 2023 by binf_shinana (see edit history)

[Krougal]

39 minutes ago, binf_shinana said:

DFが完璧な回答であるような意見は、ここのフォーラムでかなり見かけるような気がします。

バニラはDFに置き換えられるべきでしょうか？

 

I feel like I see quite a few opinions on this forum where DF is the perfect answer.
Should vanilla be replaced by DF?

@%$# no.

[8_Hussars]

1 hour ago, binf_shinana said:

I feel like I see quite a few opinions on this forum where DF is the perfect answer.

Should vanilla be replaced by DF?

While I appreciate the time, energy, effort, and passion Khaine has put into the project, DF is not to everyone's liking and not what vanilla should be.

Edited October 4, 2023 by 8_Hussars (see edit history)

[Roland]

2 hours ago, Kalen said:

 

The ability to craft a M60 is a recipe

The ability to craft a QL5 M60 instead of a QL2 M60 is a crafting skill

 

I'm fine with the first one being random, based on the magazines you find.   I don't like that the second one is also RNG based.

 

 

I don't agree. They are both recipes that require a different number of ingredients. There is no difference between knowing how to make an Assault Rifle and then finding a recipe for an M60 and suddenly knowing how to make that compared to knowing how to make a brown M60 and then finding a recipe for an orange M60. They are all schematics you are learning. You are the one who is interpreting that new recipe as a skill increase in crafting. If TFP changed it so that every increase was a different gun but the stats were exactly the same and only the visual representation and name of the weapon in your hands was different would you suddenly be fine with each new recipe?

 

I've never viewed any of the recipes as a skill increase. I've always seen them as better schematics to build a better gun even if it is called the same gun and looks the same in my hands on-screen. I don't see the magazine system as a skill-increasing system at all. It is a schematic-acquiring system and it is an alternative to finding or buying weapons. Would you call it a skill increase in shopping if you purchased a brown M60 on day 45 but then purchased an orange M60 on day 47? No, those were two different guns of the same model and you purchased both of them when they were available. Same thing with crafting. You have a recipe for a brown M60 and you craft it. Later you piece together notes from several other magazines and find the recipe for an orange M60 so you craft it.

 

There is no skill progression in crafting other than what you can deterministically enact by buying skill points that increase speed and decrease material costs for crafting. Those are your skill advancements in crafting. Everything else is just new recipes.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Roland (see edit history)

[Kalen]

27 minutes ago, Roland said:

They are all schematics you are learning.

 

I would agree if you could suddenly find a QL5 recipe.   You can't though, you have to progress through QL1-4 first, which to me sounds more like a skill than a recipe.

 

[Roland]

11 minutes ago, Kalen said:

 

I would agree if you could suddenly find a QL5 recipe.   You can't though, you have to progress through QL1-4 first, which to me sounds more like a skill than a recipe.

 

 

That's a good point. It is still open to interpretation and each player will see it the way they wish. But I will point out that you must find the recipe for an AK-47 before you can find the recipe for an M-60 and you said you have no problem with the first time you gain the M-60 recipe.

[Kalen]

13 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

That's a good point. It is still open to interpretation and each player will see it the way they wish. But I will point out that you must find the recipe for an AK-47 before you can find the recipe for an M-60 and you said you have no problem with the first time you gain the M-60 recipe.

 

Yeah, I dont really have a problem with not being able to craft the M60 until I get through the previous tiers because there is clearly a balance component to it.  Plus there is a logic that you can't craft a higher tier item until your skill is sufficient.   Of course, that just further demonstrates to me that the magazines represent skill as well as recipes.

 

I actually like the overall structure of the magazine system... just not the way you acquire them.   If you changed "magazines" to "skill points" and changed the acquisition from "looting" to "gaining skill points as you level" I think the system would be much better. 

 

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Kalen (see edit history)

[Roland]

41 minutes ago, Kalen said:

Yeah, I dont really have a problem with not being able to craft the M60 until I get through the previous tiers because there is clearly a balance component to it.  Plus there is a logic that you can't craft a higher tier item until your skill is sufficient.   Of course, that just further demonstrates to me that the magazines represent skill as well as recipes.

 

It just demonstrates the problem in communication that exists. There has been so much misunderstanding about the magazines that it isn't surprising that people still think magazines represent skill progression. That's not their intended design but that's really neither here nor there. If a player can't help but think of it as skill progression and doesn't like that they have no control over the pace at which they grow in their skill, then it doesn't really matter that they are seen purely as recipe acquisition by the developers. They have forced a linear progression to which recipes you can acquire for sure.

[Kalen]

5 minutes ago, Roland said:

It just demonstrates the problem in communication that exists. There has been so much misunderstanding about the magazines that it isn't surprising that people still think magazines represent skill progression. That's not their intended design but that's really neither here nor there. If a player can't help but think of it as skill progression and doesn't like that they have no control over the pace at which they grow in their skill, then it doesn't really matter that they are seen purely as recipe acquisition by the developers. They have forced a linear progression to which recipes you can acquire for sure.

 

I hear you, but what they call it or what they intend isn't nearly as important as people's perception  (at least in terms of people's reception of the feature).  They can say that magazines only represent recipes, but when magazines directly control what QL you can craft things at (something that has always been determined by skill in previous alphas), magazine have functionally replaced skills.   I honestly can't see how you could see it any other way.

 

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

But they literally do represent skill progression. The more magazines you read the more you progress in a skill. For limiting the player in terms of progression speed there are better ways. Like level caps. You can´t find a way around that. Magazines can be worked around. Level one skill like crazy get all the magazines in 3 days, buy fergetting elixir, rinse and repeat with other skills.

[Vaeliorin]

5 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

Magazines can be worked around. Level one skill like crazy get all the magazines in 3 days, buy fergetting elixir, rinse and repeat with other skills.

This is my biggest dislike about the magazine system.  It feels like I'm being punished for spreading skill points around to multiple skills.

[Whorhay]

You can do things to get more magazines of a specific type though, namely finding containers of the right sort. When I'm trying to get traps up high enough to make electric fences I bee-line for electronics stores. When I need more Vehicle magazines, I start ransacking every POI that looks like it'd have Pass & Gas crates. That said I think I did prefer the old system of skill points getting you the improved quality and recipes, with random schematic finds for fun variance. I really didn't like how we had to find schematics to make the top tier weapons though, that was frankly a crap mechanic. The magazine system seems to work pretty well, my only consistent balance issue is finding enough crafting station magazines to actually build a Chem station and above. I pretty much always have gas powered tools and vehicles weeks before I have the capability to cook gas.

[pApA^LeGBa]

Yeah punishing builds that don´t specialize is a big minus. Like this game needed more optiona to min/max....

Edited October 4, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Roland]

6 hours ago, Kalen said:

 

I hear you, but what they call it or what they intend isn't nearly as important as people's perception  (at least in terms of people's reception of the feature).  They can say that magazines only represent recipes, but when magazines directly control what QL you can craft things at (something that has always been determined by skill in previous alphas), magazine have functionally replaced skills.   I honestly can't see how you could see it any other way.

 

 

 

I agree that perception trumps all. As to not understanding how I could possibly see it any other way, let's just say I've gotten good at looking at things from different perspectives. I definitely understand what you are saying and why you are interpreting the magazines as skill progression but I also see it as separate recipes. I am not nearly so bothered by it since I can view the quality levels as simply new recipes. Expanding your view to encompass different viewpoints is a skill that can be learned.

 

I can see it both ways but I choose to accept that the only actual skill progression in the game are those perks you purchase with skillpoints and everything else is attained by scavenging items and knowledge.

 

Skillpoints --> skill progression which is deterministic

Magazines --> crafting recipes which is random

 

Since you can't see it any other way than the one that makes the mechanic distasteful to you, I suppose you're stuck until a mod comes out.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Roland (see edit history)

[Kalen]

1 minute ago, Roland said:

 

I agree that perception trumps all. As to not understanding how I could possibly see it any other way, let's just say I've gotten good at looking at things from different perspectives. I definitely understand what you are saying and why you are interpreting the magazines as skill progression but I also see it as separate recipes. I am not nearly so bothered by it since I can view the quality levels as simply new recipes. Expanding your view to encompass different viewpoints is a skill that can be learned.

 

I can see it both ways but I choose to accept that the only actual skill progression in the game are those perks you purchase with skillpoints and everything else is attained by scavenging items or knowledge.

 

Skillpoints --> skill progression which is deterministic

Magazines --> crafting recipes which is random

 

Since you can't see it any other way than the one that makes the mechanic distasteful to you, I suppose you're stuck until a mod comes out.

 

Its all good, I very rarely play with mods.   None of this is really a deal breaker for me, I still find the game playable and fun.... I just think its interesting to talk about ways it could be, IMO, better.

 

I appreciate hearing the other side, even if I don't agree with it.

 

That said, if anyone ever creates a mod that adds item degradation back in I'd be all over that.

[Subasu]

Magazines:  Good in Theory, Bad in Practice.

The learn as you do it a great way to reward people's particular playstyle and I have no qualms with the idea that you can bolster your knowledge by reading, as well as doing.

However, having your ability to craft tied to magazines, in an effort to slow down progress, TFP has forgotten one critical thing.

 

How people play.

This system punishes miners and base builders, while incentivizes run and gun loot'em all style.  All the while, the looters and shooters will far out strip any need to get crafting magazines because they will be T6 steel/military/weapons long before they can even craft a T2 bow, negating the need for the ability to craft, other than ammo for guns and robotics.  

Pretty much all you need to find can and is found in loot crates, and quest reward clears.  

and having both books AND magazines is confusing and frustrating.

 

And don't get me STARTED on the stealth issue.

[Vaeliorin]

48 minutes ago, Roland said:

 I definitely understand what you are saying and why you are interpreting the magazines as skill progression but I also see it as separate recipes.

Given that each individual magazine doesn't unlock a new recipe, I don't know how you can see them as anything other than a progression system.  If every magazine unlocked a new tier of item, you could certainly make that argument (I'd disagree) but given that most magazines give you little other than progress to the next unlock, claiming that they're individual recipes just doesn't seem to be a tenable position to me.