Alpha 21 Return glass jars to the game by reworking the mechanics of their extraction

[billdj12]

Prelude: The new mechanic that removes glass jars from the game is kind of nonsense. This action is due to the fact that players at the beginning of the game value every resource, and I think this is the right decision. And as a lore argument like: "River water and snow are infected with a virus, which does not allow it to be colleted."

 

However, the character can freely sip raw water from the palm of a puddle, risking only catching dysentery. And the question is: why did they get rid of glass jars? Is this to make it difficult/restricting the crafting of vital resources (example: glue, weapons and etc.)?! It is problematic to craft a water collector at the beginning of the game, because either there are no resources, or you have not found a recipe book, therefore you have to look for a bunch of houses in order to find a jar of murky water with a small chance. Of course, there is an option to buy drinks from a vending machine with all the money, but this is not always the best solution.  

 

However, I can suggest the following as an alternative: Return the glass jars for the set of muddy river water back into the game, while leaving the current crafts that use boiled water. Instead of just boiling muddy water in a fire with a cooking pot, you first need to strain this water through a primitive filter (consisting of rags and adhesive tape filled with saltpeter and coal), otherwise you will get dirty boiled water, which is not good for anything.  good until you clean it, which is logical.

These filters will either be disposable (because they are made from improvised means), or they will last for a couple of uses, after which they will fall apart into dust. In the future, it will be possible to find / buy high-quality water filters that will last many times longer than primitive ones.

The mechanics of changing filters for rainwater collectors is also recommended (because, logically, they also become unusable).  Well, so that the player does not risk drinking raw water, you need to increase the percentage of getting dysentery (or intestinal parasites, if such a mechanic suddenly appears).

 

If this idea is not to your liking, there is an alternative: water purification tablets (idea taken from The Long Dark).  They are disposable, can only be crafted at a chemical station with the appropriate recipe.

 

I want to say that there are plenty of ideas about recycling clean water, but the decision to replace glass jars with water collectors is a decision that was most likely made in haste and has no connections.  I hope this idea will come in, but maybe someone will offer a better idea.

[Javabean867]

Sounds like something you should mod back in seeing you want the jars back.  But adding a step or 2 to make your infinite water doesn't fix what tfp fixed when they removed the jars.

[billdj12]

9 minutes ago, Javabean867 said:

Sounds like something you should mod back in seeing you want the jars back.  But adding a step or 2 to make your infinite water doesn't fix what tfp fixed when they removed the jars.

Let me satisfy my curiosity: Why did the developers do this by removing glass jars? Did they want to make the character choose between crafting and eating it? I just didn't get their idea.

 

I believe that a primitive filter will not allow you to get an infinite amount of boiled water at the Stone Age stage. Especially if the filter is disposable and will cost a decent amount, i.e. if you want to get clean water, you have to work in the mine. (conditionally for crafting without taking into account the cloth and tape, you will need, say, 50 nitrate and 100 coal).

 

In the last stage of the game, there will be an infinite amount of water anyway, it just gives a chance to develop in a different way, either by building a large number of water collectors, or to get a bunch of raw resources, craft filters and recycle dirty water.

Edited August 13, 2023 by billdj12
adding your thoughts (see edit history)

[Vaeliorin]

4 hours ago, Javabean867 said:

Sounds like something you should mod back in seeing you want the jars back.  But adding a step or 2 to make your infinite water doesn't fix what tfp fixed when they removed the jars.

And what, pray tell, did they fix?  I'm on day 29 (basically) and I've got over 700 water in a box, and the materials to craft another 9 dew collectors that I just haven't bothered to yet.

 

Water has gone from a non-issue, to an annoying non-issue (harvesting 27 dew collectors is a pain in the ass.)

[AtomicUs5000]

58 minutes ago, Vaeliorin said:

And what, pray tell, did they fix?  I'm on day 29 (basically) and I've got over 700 water in a box, and the materials to craft another 9 dew collectors that I just haven't bothered to yet.

 

Water has gone from a non-issue, to an annoying non-issue (harvesting 27 dew collectors is a pain in the ass.)

 
With 700 water in a box, you should be harvesting zero dew collectors.
The fixes are that we don't have thousands of empty jars to deal with in inventory and that it matches every other consumable in a container where we don't get the container.
 
My problem with the change is that it doesn't make sense that I can no longer carry a unit of water from a water source for boiling and that the dew collector is silly, lazy design, and detrimental to the survival feels. It is silly in several ways:
- it magically attracts screamers

- it would be the absolute last resort in a survival situation, would barely work in the desert and probably not at all in the cold
- dew would not need to be filtered

- its existence in the game further raises the question why rain cannot be collected in the first place

I'd rather have a distiller that I fill with buckets and requires fuel to justify the screamer attraction. That still could also be used as a more creative way to obtain better drinks (coffee, alcoholic beverages, teas)

[billdj12]

1 hour ago, AtomicUs5000 said:

 
With 700 water in a box, you should be harvesting zero dew collectors.
The fixes are that we don't have thousands of empty jars to deal with in inventory and that it matches every other consumable in a container where we don't get the container.
 
My problem with the change is that it doesn't make sense that I can no longer carry a unit of water from a water source for boiling and that the dew collector is silly, lazy design, and detrimental to the survival feels. It is silly in several ways:
- it magically attracts screamers

- it would be the absolute last resort in a survival situation, would barely work in the desert and probably not at all in the cold
- dew would not need to be filtered

- its existence in the game further raises the question why rain cannot be collected in the first place

I'd rather have a distiller that I fill with buckets and requires fuel to justify the screamer attraction. That still could also be used as a more creative way to obtain better drinks (coffee, alcoholic beverages, teas)

Not bad idea.

[Riamus]

Note that TFP wanted to get rid of glass jars no matter what.  They won't bring them back no matter what they might do regarding water.  It happens that they chose to use dew collectors for water when removing the jars but they could have done something else instead... they would still have removed the jars.

 

There are all kinds of options for water that could be implemented and they each have pros and cons.  Anything that makes water easy on day one isn't going to be acceptable for TFP.  They want it to start out as a challenge that can be overcome in time.  Granted, water is still extremely easy once you get used to the changes and aren't a new player.  There could definitely be improvements there.  Someone suggested a late game "workstation" that was essentially a water pump you place next to water to get water more easily without having to have huge farms of dew collectors for larger groups of players.  I like that idea.  It doesn't make water easy in the first days while making it less of a hassle later on.

 

They could solve the immersion problem with not being able to use water from standing water (other than by drinking directly) by removing the option to drink directly and making that water radioactive.  It would then make sense.  Of course, then you shouldn't ever cross a river without radioactive protection or a bridge or boat.  I'm not saying this is the way they should go with it; just that it's one way to fix the broken immersion.

[Javabean867]

7 hours ago, Vaeliorin said:

And what, pray tell, did they fix?  I'm on day 29 (basically) and I've got over 700 water in a box, and the materials to craft another 9 dew collectors that I just haven't bothered to yet.

 

Water has gone from a non-issue, to an annoying non-issue (harvesting 27 dew collectors is a pain in the ass.)

They have answered this question many times.   Use the search function to find the many times this has been answered.   

 

Water should be a struggle early game.  And barely an inconvenience mid game.  And of no consequence late game.

[nostalginator]

Water covers 2/3 of the planet's surface and literally falls from the god damn sky.  I, for one, do not give a rat's ass what TFP's reasoning is.  If a zombie apocalypse happened tomorrow in real life, I could still gather water from a ditch and boil that until it was drinkable.  I could also collect it AS IT FALLS FROM THE GOD DAMN SKY, which is apparently beyond a dew collector's teeny-tiny capacity.

TFP just got salty and introduced tedium into the game because we were playing it too efficiently.  It feels surreal to even say that because it is such a counterintuitive approach to game design that it boggles the imagination.

[Vaeliorin]

4 hours ago, Javabean867 said:

They have answered this question many times.   Use the search function to find the many times this has been answered.   

 

Water should be a struggle early game.  And barely an inconvenience mid game.  And of no consequence late game.

I know what they say.  I'm saying they utterly failed in their attempt.  Water is at best an issue for a single day, two at most, and trivial after that.

[meganoth]

6 hours ago, Vaeliorin said:

I know what they say.  I'm saying they utterly failed in their attempt.  Water is at best an issue for a single day, two at most, and trivial after that.

 

"... for a veteran (SP) player". I am sure you wanted to say this really, right? 😉

 

Novices and co-op players actually have a problem for some time. I am playing with 3 others and we got enough water to be a non-issue after we bought about 12 filters. The starting trader usually has 3 in the first 3 days and a random amount after that.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 14, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Javabean867]

6 hours ago, Vaeliorin said:

I know what they say.  I'm saying they utterly failed in their attempt.  Water is at best an issue for a single day, two at most, and trivial after that.

Then why would you ask for their reason, if you already know the answer.

 

Look it's simple.  You like the jars.  Mod them back into your game.  It's simple.  

 

Getting yourself worked up over this isn't going to change anything.  

 

Yes petitioning for a change is fine, getting other people to ask for it is great.  But getting upset over it makes zero sense.

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, Javabean867 said:

Then why would you ask for their reason, if you already know the answer.

 

Look it's simple.  You like the jars.  Mod them back into your game.  It's simple.  

 

Getting yourself worked up over this isn't going to change anything.  

 

Yes petitioning for a change is fine, getting other people to ask for it is great.  But getting upset over it makes zero sense.

 

To be fair, it was a rethorical question. Though mentioning day 29 which is far out of any range where TFP probably wants water to be a problem seems to indicate that he has wrong expectations.

 

[Vaeliorin]

4 hours ago, Javabean867 said:

Then why would you ask for their reason, if you already know the answer.

 

Look it's simple.  You like the jars.  Mod them back into your game.  It's simple.  

 

Getting yourself worked up over this isn't going to change anything.  

 

Yes petitioning for a change is fine, getting other people to ask for it is great.  But getting upset over it makes zero sense.

I honestly don't care about the jars.  I don't mind the change (other than I wish I could pipe all my dew collectors together to a single collection point) I just think it was a wasted effort that could have been better spent on something else.

3 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

To be fair, it was a rethorical question. Though mentioning day 29 which is far out of any range where TFP probably wants water to be a problem seems to indicate that he has wrong expectations.

 

Not really wrong expectations, just that I happened to be on day 29.  I had a hundred or so water that I'd collected sitting in a box after 4 or 5 days (which admittedly surprised me, but I've been more focused on looting this playthrough than I would normally be).  I've been lackadaisical about making dew collectors and bad at keeping up with looting them this playthrough.

 

The thing is, I'm not some kind of hardcore survivalist player that wants water and food to be a challenge.  They could completely get rid of food and water (and stamina outside of combat) and I'd be completely cool with that.  Like I said, it just seems like wasted effort that could have been spent adding something more meaningful to the game.

[Anabella]

I don’t like the dew catchers as is and hope to see some changes to them. You need too many and they take up way too much room. I wish this change had never been been made to the game. Thankfully there is modding. Too bad it it has to be solved that way but maybe we’ll see some cool mods that will fix the issue.

[Roland]

It has been stated a number of times that TFP wanted empty jars removed and that is completely aside from trying to make water a struggle. Any dream for a change to water survival needs to exclude a return of empty jars because jars are not going to return no matter what. Same with empty tin cans.

 

So I have read some good ideas on the forum that involve the bucket and some interesting proposals for changes to the dew collector. These ideas might have a chance if they gain enough traction and TFP decides to make some adjustments but I'm telling you that before TFP ever dreamed up dew collectors and thought about increasing the early game water challenge they already had the removal of empty jars on their radar so no idea or dream that includes their return has even a chance of seeing the light of day outside of a mod.

 

Removing empty jars was their starting point. It was not a byproduct of wanting to add dew collectors.

[billdj12]

56 minutes ago, Roland said:

It has been stated a number of times that TFP wanted empty jars removed and that is completely aside from trying to make water a struggle. Any dream for a change to water survival needs to exclude a return of empty jars because jars are not going to return no matter what. Same with empty tin cans.

 

So I have read some good ideas on the forum that involve the bucket and some interesting proposals for changes to the dew collector. These ideas might have a chance if they gain enough traction and TFP decides to make some adjustments but I'm telling you that before TFP ever dreamed up dew collectors and thought about increasing the early game water challenge they already had the removal of empty jars on their radar so no idea or dream that includes their return has even a chance of seeing the light of day outside of a mod.

 

Removing empty jars was their starting point. It was not a byproduct of wanting to add dew collectors.

As far as I understand, about glass jars: since water, like food and medicine, is a consumable item, they are no longer needed as an item (the same with tin cans).

If so, then I understand.  

 

However, it is rightly noted, both by you and other users, that the extraction of water should not end only with dew collectors. There should be other alternatives as well: from simple options for getting a drink for basic needs at the Stone Age stage, to advanced ones for creating industrial quantities of water at a high player's stage.

 

The same stills / distillers, as an example, or use of consumables (Activated Carbon, Water Purification Tablets, and etc.) to create water. Everything is up to the player.

[meganoth]

6 hours ago, Vaeliorin said:

The thing is, I'm not some kind of hardcore survivalist player that wants water and food to be a challenge.  They could completely get rid of food and water (and stamina outside of combat) and I'd be completely cool with that.  Like I said, it just seems like wasted effort that could have been spent adding something more meaningful to the game.

 

I am not a hardcore survivalist player either. I played "Don't starve" about 2 hours until I had enough of the constant food and wood scrounging. Except for valheim and 7D2D and the 2 hours of DS I haven't played any survival game at all. But when I have to drink in the game anyway then I want it to have some gameplay value.

 

 

 

[Vaeliorin]

12 minutes ago, meganoth said:

I am not a hardcore survivalist player either. I played "Don't starve" about 2 hours until I had enough of the constant food and wood scrounging. Except for valheim and 7D2D and the 2 hours of DS I haven't played any survival game at all. But when I have to drink in the game anyway then I want it to have some gameplay value.

7D2D and Minecraft for me.  Never played any other "survival" game, and not really interested.  I'd love for drinking to have some sort of gameplay value, I just don't feel like it currently does.

 

I played a Hardcore Survival Minecraft modpack many years ago (it was called Crash Landing, iirc) and in that getting water was incredibly hard at the start, but you eventually could start to automate it, and in the end could have it completely automated.

 

The important part there is that it took a decent amount of time before you could automate it, but that's not really the case in 7 Days.  I'd love to see more complexity in crafting and processing various resources (I generally play "expert" modpacks when playing Minecraft), but unfortunately that doesn't seem to be the direction that 7 Days is going.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Vaeliorin (see edit history)

[warmer]

I think it makes good sense the only places you find it are toilets and cupboards/coolers. This is lore consistent regarding a point at which an "open to the water cycle" source have become contaminated. Dew is unique in that each particle is so small it doesn't contain other chemical elements like rain does (collecting contamination as it travels through the atmosphere)

 

The big issue with reworking this change is the value of a water filter mod for a helmet is huge. It is a milestone point for any characters evolution. I think keeping it as is, and forcing dew collectors or boiling none wild sources is the only way to maintain a crafting balance as water is a huge component in the crafting economy. Once you have unlimited H2O then you next bottle neck is bones for glue, then cloth for duct tape.

 

Water keeps crafting paced in my opinion and slows progression for a balanced MP game.

[bloodmoth13]

Honestly I think i prefered glass jars though I don't really miss it, the vitamin pills are basically a full bar of water if you have a bucket or water source.

 

I haven't really had a problem with food or water this alpha other than crafting glue. I barely invest in few collectors.

 

I think the food systems need a rework, nothing huge but having distinct tiers of food and benefits of each tier would help.

 

I have a slogan that I think works as a guide for this game: survive, strive, thrive.

Survival should be the focus of the first few weeks then players should

Strive to build stronger bases, get better resources and food and weapons till they can

Thrive and eat the best food use the best defense's and defend themselves with the best weapons.

 

Weapon tiers work well with this model, pipe weapons are the epitome of desperate survival, the mid tier weapons with iron and basic fire arms is when you strive for more success and by the time you are at the final tier you are thriving.

Food on the other hand feels far more binary and it's hard to really value end game food, a stack of 100 grilled meat is only slightly worse than a few stacks of meat stew, you don't really feel far better with higher tier food.

Water is also binary.

I think a great tradeoff for food is health costs, lower tier food at the survival stage costing health is a great tradeoff, but dysentery is too big a risk imo, if you are desperate enough to eat unhealthy food you can't risk dysentery.

If dysentery were a debuff that could stack to 100 I think it would be better to play around, eat garbage food all day, 12 dysentery each time, get over 100, lose everything. Also add dysentery to zombie attacks and it's a better gamble, eat up to 99 dysentery thinking you are safe, get hit by a zombie and get stunned for a second as you @%$# yourself and lose half your food.

 

Early game antibiotics could work with this model too, something that can suppress infections or reverse it for a bit but not cure it and it takes HP away. Infections suck, especially when you have zero options to cope with it.

[binf_shinana]

この手の議論をする際、無限の食料と水を得られる自動販売機のことも考える必要があります。
通常このゲームではお金に困ることはほぼありません。お金の消費はリソースとして機能しているとは言い難いです。つまり食料と水は無限です。ゲーム開始時点でほぼサバイバルの問題は解決された状態です。
しかし、マルチプレイを考えると、少なすぎる在庫はプレイヤー同士の喧嘩の元になります（自動販売機にこそシークレットスタッシュが必要だったかもしれません）。

(Google Translation)

When discussing this sort of thing, you also need to think about vending machines that give you unlimited food and water.
Money is usually not a problem in this game. It is hard to say that money consumption is functioning as a resource. Food and water are infinite. At the start of the game, most of the survival issues have been resolved.
However, considering multiplayer, too little inventory can lead to fights between players (vending machines may need secret stashes).

[billdj12]

15 minutes ago, binf_shinana said:

この手の議論をする際、無限の食料と水を得られる自動販売機のことも考える必要があります。
通常このゲームではお金に困ることはほぼありません。お金の消費はリソースとして機能しているとは言い難いです。つまり食料と水は無限です。ゲーム開始時点でほぼサバイバルの問題は解決された状態です。
しかし、マルチプレイを考えると、少なすぎる在庫はプレイヤー同士の喧嘩の元になります（自動販売機にこそシークレットスタッシュが必要だったかもしれません）。

(Google Translation)

When discussing this sort of thing, you also need to think about vending machines that give you unlimited food and water.
Money is usually not a problem in this game. It is hard to say that money consumption is functioning as a resource. Food and water are infinite. At the start of the game, most of the survival issues have been resolved.
However, considering multiplayer, too little inventory can lead to fights between players (vending machines may need secret stashes).

However, it is desirable to have alternative sources of water extraction.

 

After all, food can also be purchased from a merchant and vending machine, as well as found in containers in locations throughout the world.

However, food can also be obtained by hunting on animals, and by harvesting from the farm plot.  Alas, the water in this regard was deprived, which is sad.

 

(Google Translation)

しかしながら、代替の水抽出源を有することが望ましい。

結局のところ、食べ物は商人や自動販売機からも購入できるほか、マップ上の場所にあるコンテナからも購入できます。 ただし、食料は獲物を狩ったり、ベッドから収穫したりすることによっても入手できます。

残念ながら、この点で水が奪われてしまったのは悲しいことです。

[binf_shinana]

上記については同意します。
出現する飲料は汚水ばかりであり、「ドリンクが欲しいからドリンクスタンドに行く」という動機が薄れています。これは個人的におもしろくないと感じているところです。

ポストアポカリプス世界でジュースはすべて腐って汚水になっているはず、という考えがベースにあるのなら、シャムウェイクレートから出現するドリンクについても同様に対策するべきです。

(Google Translation)

I agree to the above.
The beverages that appear are only sewage, and the motivation to "go to the drink stand because I want a drink" is fading. This is where I personally find it uninteresting.

If your idea is that all juices in a post-apocalyptic world will be rotten wastewater, so should the drinks that emerge from the Shumway crate.

[AlexBLR]

I fall into the same idea: 

 

Jars should be returned back but only as a container without returning the ability to get the clean water easily by cooking on campfire. Just because it's a king of strange things, you getting not the raw water but a water with the container and after use the container it is disappear.  

Higher living days have higher water requirements and what you have now? Dews? Hey, we can build a moto, can do the electricity.. but we can not produce water using electricity? Just in-complete feature. At least need electric dew, and the filters... should have tiers and they should not be unlimited. Poor filter will gave you 30 jars of water and gone. S tier gave you 150 jars and disapear. No way to craft the filter, only buy or find. 

 

Quote

It is hard to say that money consumption is functioning as a resource

haha, this is was always my favorite source of brass. Just burn the money! 

I'm still confused, why they added so many brass in loot? Break the doors, burn the radiators, burn the money. Brass never was a problem.

Edited August 28, 2023 by AlexBLR (see edit history)