Skill system in A21 is practically the same as pure dice play - no planning, no intelligent gameplay possible

[White-Gandalf]

The Skill system in A21 works out as a pure dice game. Well, guys: I was below 10 when i came out of the age of having fun rolling dice. I switched to chess in those years in the last millennium.

In my first run, i am now in week 4. And all the Avatar has learned is how to make steel tools.

 

BUT: Without the dice puking out steel tool parts. Not at the trader. Not as quest rewards. Not as loot. Nothing. The Avatar is just far too low on level that those things could have a chance to pop up in the loot lists.

BUT 2: Without letting the Avatar learn the workbench skills. At the end of week 3 (imagine, yes?!), the dice rolls lastly gave him the opportunity to learn a FORGE !!!

 

A FORGE !!! At the end of week 3 !!!

You can't tell that your grandchildren at the campfire. It's just awful.
At least, i got a chance to buy a workbench from the trader in week 4. But i had to quest two days in a row just to get my fingers on that beauty!

So i'm now stuck with an Avatar having the ability to make hight level steel tools - IF he WOULD have the possibility to use that skill. But since he doesn't, i'm stuck with a completely mis-skilled guy. What he was granted by the dice, he is unable to use. What he needs direly he isn't granted by the dice.

 

I have watched some guy playing Skyrim "on dice" - with every decision, including perk development, being decided by dice roll. THAT is exactly how i'm feeling being forced to play 7 Days nowadays. In 7 Days we are back on the level of "Mensch ärgere Dich nicht" - where all you can do as player is somewhat strategically steer the dice control wheel a little and then hope for the best and live with the worst.

I don't put that on the plus side of the ideas of the funpimps.

==========================

Would there be a possibility to mitigate that catastrophic mis-skilling?

Yes, of course there is: You could, for example, make the dice rolls in line with what the Avatar DOES in the game. Instead of with what the Avatar FINDS - per pure dice rolls. So you would reduce the dice-rollingness of the gameplay from TWO mutually reinforcing Levels - as it is at the moment - to one level less. THAT at least would be a tiny little step in the right direction - you know: "having FUN" and such shenanigans.

If you correctly implement that principle, you land back at "learning by doing" - just randomized by dice rolls.

But the funpimps could have saved whole 5 Alphas with each completely redesigning the perk/Skill system. Just use your working time for USEFUL things like gameplay issues that lurk in the code since decades already.

[RipClaw]

19 minutes ago, White-Gandalf said:

The Skill system in A21 works out as a pure dice game. Well, guys: I was below 10 when i came out of the age of having fun rolling dice. I switched to chess in those years in the last millennium.

The dice in A21 are loaded. If you put points into perks that are linked to the magazines, you will find more matching magazines. In the case of the workbench, these are Advanced Engineering and Lockpicking.

 

The new system has some flaws and I don't think you can fix them by balancing.

[White-Gandalf]

@RipClaw: Yes, the principal dependency was told by TFP, but they "forgot" to implement an ingame description of those dependencies in about half the cases. The workbench, specifically, has not a single line of text describing its dependency on any perk point investments.

The only way to get those dependencies for sure is to analyze the contents of the XMLs.
Now, imagine making a stream and then switching in stream over to XML editing to get crucial infos needed for progressing ingame.

Even if the audience accepts such a "gameplay" style, the randomness of character development remains completely in the hands of dice.

Back in the old days, 7DTD had a roleplaying element of character development in it. That one is gone, too. With so many other good elements.

The amount of modding before 7DTD becomes enjoyable again grows with every alpha released.
I don't see the game developing in a direction that could eventually be titled "final". The "unfinishnessity" grows ever bigger.

Edited June 27, 2023 by White-Gandalf (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

4 minutes ago, White-Gandalf said:

@RipClaw: Yes, the principal dependency was told by TFP, but they "forgot" to implement an ingame description of those dependencies in about half the cases. The workbench, specifically, has not a single line of text describing its dependency on any perk point investments.

That should be reported as a bug. I honestly didn't really pay attention to it because I automatically associate workbenches with advanced engineering. I read about lockpicking in the forum and then had a look at the XML files.

 

 

[praekokion]

The dependency is explained ingame tho, but only "in one direction".

 

What I mean: If you click on "Advanced Engineering" PERK it does not tell you what it will boost. If you click the "WORKSTATIONS" crafting tho (in the magazines tab), the description in the top right does tell you that advanced engineering and lockpicking boost youe chabces for books. This way around (description of the crafting skill, not the perk) I think all of them have their respective dependencies explained.

 

Also: The magazines not only increase bookchance, but also the chance for dropping items and parts from the category. So if you're missing steel tool parts, the ways around this would be:

 

1) Skill into Miner69er for increased chance to drop them

2) Raise your Gamestage

3) Loot in harder Biomes wich will give you a higher lootstage - then focus on e.g. working stiffs and passngas crates.

 

If you put 1-2 points into miner69er and drive to the snow to loot 1-2 working stiffs and 1-2 passngas stores (dont forget the normal shelves in the stores that seem to (optically) have tool-ish stuff in them), you will likely have enough steel tool parts.

[Orabast]

3 hours ago, RipClaw said:

The dice in A21 are loaded. If you put points into perks that are linked to the magazines, you will find more matching magazines. 

I think armor needs some work. I've had 4 points into Light Armor for while now and I hardly find the Armor Up books.

[BFT2020]

34 minutes ago, Orabast said:

I think armor needs some work. I've had 4 points into Light Armor for while now and I hardly find the Armor Up books.

 

Are you looking in Savage country crates?  That is where you have the best chance of finding these specifically.  In the generic locations (think bookcases and Crack Book crates), they would compete with other perks you have leveled up.

 

That is where I am finding them mostly.  I only have it to level 1 right now, so it fights with my archery (level 3) and knives (level 3), but I have gotten them while I been out looting.

[LackLustaFilaBusta]

43 minutes ago, Orabast said:

I think armor needs some work. I've had 4 points into Light Armor for while now and I hardly find the Armor Up books.

Traders seem to almost always have armor up books if you don't mind spending the dukes on them

[warmer]

choose how you spend your points at level up wisely. I for one LOVE the random element, because after 1000+hrs this game got VERY predictable.

[LackLustaFilaBusta]

I personally like the new mag system for the most part, apart from sometimes looting a better version of something I can make. I think the skill system needs a rework though as far as things go. Having to dump so many points into various attributes to get access to certain perks that you more or less need feels bad or trying to play with 2 weapons that aren't the same attribute. A lot of perks can also be combined to make the player experience more enjoyable.

[Orabast]

1 hour ago, BFT2020 said:

I only have it to level 1 right now, so it fights with my archery (level 3) and knives (level 3), but I have gotten them while I been out looting.

I never thought of it this way, but it makes sense. I find a lot of tactical & tools books, which I'm guessing is fighting with Armor up

[canadianbluebeer]

Do a LOT of quests.

 

I've got Q6 steel tools from the rewards, before I could make them.

 

I just finally got enough parts to make the Q5 nailgun. (motor tool parts are scarce)

 

90min days, and on day 23 I'm going T5 quests.  (I love machine guns and headshots)

 

I just finally got the last 2 books to make a motorcyle on day 22, and the last trader in the route of course...

had a motorcycle for sale.  mumble.

 

(had the handlebars and 11 tires, just needed the chassis. nobody had one at all. then the full bike! mumble)

 

RNG is RNG.  still.

😛

 

[H7dek7]

3 hours ago, canadianbluebeer said:

Do a LOT of quests.

 

Uh, doing quests is optional, just like anything else in this sandbox (maybe except fighting zombies).

[The Civillian]

I feel that the game needs to weight the perks you choose a bit higher than it currently does.

WHen tools, cooking and repair tool are keeping up with two chosen weapon perks you have an issue.

[Survior]

It works by MAGIC.

 

[Riamus]

10 hours ago, canadianbluebeer said:

I just finally got enough parts to make the Q5 nailgun. (motor tool parts are scarce)

Don't waste the parts.  The only difference between Q1 and Q5 Nailgun is extra durability, which doesn't matter and 1 extra distance, which also really doesn't matter.  Certainly not enough to justify the extra cost.

 

4 hours ago, The Civillian said:

I feel that the game needs to weight the perks you choose a bit higher than it currently does.

WHen tools, cooking and repair tool are keeping up with two chosen weapon perks you have an issue.

You have to look at what you are looting.  You're going to get cooking more than anything simply because you're usually going to be looting cupboards and things where these are located.  Tools and repair tools also are more often in places you loot regularly.  I've maxed out the magazines I've put points into far faster than anything else other than these common magazines that are found everywhere.  It definitely doesn't need more.  If anything, maybe reduce the chances of the common magazines but I don't think that's necessary either.

[Roland]

Here is where the Learn by Reading system makes a lot more sense to me than the Learn by Doing ever did. Learn by Doing is accurate for developing muscle memory for physical tasks you already know how to do. You don't learn anything new by repeating a simple action over and over and over and over again. All you do is get better and faster at doing the exact simple task you are repeating. To learn something new you must be taught either by reading a book, being taught by teacher who already has the knowledge, or through personal experimentation with lots of failure, or direct inspiration by a higher being/universe. It really isn't learning by doing so much as it is mastery by doing what you already understand.

 

The type of knowledge that we acquire in this game is much more along the lines of learning something new that cannot be easily learned without some form of tutoring. Just repeating a simple task over and over and over again is never going to bequeath the knowledge that you need to learn to do craft and improve in the areas of the game-- particularly crafting. The mechanic of discovering old world knowledge that helps you acquire new knowledge is much more believable than the idea that doing the simplest task you can 100s of times will help you learn how to do something new.

 

Now physical actions such as swinging a club or thrusting a spear or shooting an arrow-- yes, learn by doing would definitely be more believable in those cases than reading about those activities. The good news is that learn by reading doesn't increase those types of physical skills. Those you increase through the skillpoint system by doing a variety of survival activities. Skillpoints is what replaced learn by doing because for those who play the game organically, there really isn't a whole lot of difference between learn by doing and skillpoint spending. The only time skillpoint spending feels off is for those who optimize by finding one simple activity that earns lots of xp and grinding that to rack up a ton of points to max out some unrelated skill. Playing that way is an option, for sure, but it doesn't have to be played that way. Skillpoint spending's strength is that players can do focus most on what they feel is fun but still improve in areas that might become more fun to them once their skill is high enough. With LBD I can only improve mining by mining which sucks if I don't enjoy mining--especially with low stamina and poor tools.  WIth skillpoints I can do other activities that are fun and then use points to improve my mining skill so that when I do start mining it is more enjoyable. That versatility is why my preference edges to skillpoint spending over LBD.

 

The new Learn by Reading system is awesome because it fits so well with the type of knowledge acquisition we are experiencing. If we were lost in an apocalyptic world with nobody to teach us how to do new things we've never done before then we absolutely would be at the mercy of the luck of whatever old world knowledge we could discover to help us learn.

 

Now aside from all of that, it is a ton of fun. I know not everyone is going to agree what is fun or not but for me, the new system really has refreshed the game and the logic of it is not as bad as some people are casting it. To me, it really seems that the same people who were mad that LBD was cut are the ones that are completely unaccepting of learn by reading. They haven't wanted anything other than LBD and won't ever want anything other than LBD. I'm sure there are probably also some people who started in A20 that don't like the change with no thought of LBD but they seem to be less hostile and angry.

 

4 hours ago, The Civillian said:

WHen tools, cooking and repair tool are keeping up with two chosen weapon perks you have an issue.

 

Not if most of your looting is kitchens, hardware stores, and gas stations... Location, location, location!

 

1 hour ago, Survior said:

It works by MAGIC.

 

Anything seems to be magic to the person who cannot comprehend how it happens.

[RipClaw]

46 minutes ago, Roland said:

If we were lost in an apocalyptic world with nobody to teach us how to do new things we've never done before then we absolutely would be at the mercy of the luck of whatever old world knowledge we could discover to help us learn.

And that's where the biggest flaw of the new system lies. To gain this knowledge it must first be available and if you wake up next to a small nest in the middle of nowhere you won't have many sources for the knowledge.

Edited June 28, 2023 by RipClaw (see edit history)

[Scyris]

13 hours ago, LackLustaFilaBusta said:

I personally like the new mag system for the most part, apart from sometimes looting a better version of something I can make. I think the skill system needs a rework though as far as things go. Having to dump so many points into various attributes to get access to certain perks that you more or less need feels bad or trying to play with 2 weapons that aren't the same attribute. A lot of perks can also be combined to make the player experience more enjoyable.

 

This got even worse in A21 as you do not have sex t-rex in str to lower stam use for all melee and tools anymore, you have to get 10 in the stat and 5/5 in the weapons perk to match what sex t-red used to do for half the perk points and it applied globally. Though same applies for ranged weapons with them all over the place stat wise. The stat system needs a complete redo, or a entire removal and back to a lbd/mag learning/level gate system. Just something better than now.

[Roland]

13 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

And that's where the biggest flaw of the new system lies. To gain this knowledge it must first be available and if you wake up next to a small nest in the middle of nowhere you won't have many sources for the knowledge.

 

How is that a flaw in an open-world game that is meant to be explored? You mean it is a flaw for those who expect to be able to gain all the knowledge they can from the first moment of the game every single time they start a new game? There are some starts where you find yourself next to a big city and others where you are lost in the wilderness. Different starts for different experiences and challenges to overcome. The game doesn't force you build your base right where you spawn. It doesn't even force you to stay in the first community you find from your initial trader quest. There are no force fields that keep you in the Level One area.  It's open world and it's explorable. So go explore until you find an area that fits what you want to play. Some people may like to stay in a more rural area where they will eventually become very masterful with primitive gear while others will go to where there are plenty of magazines and more quickly learn the knowledge they need to craft better gear.

Edited June 28, 2023 by Roland (see edit history)

[Old Crow]

17 hours ago, White-Gandalf said:

The workbench, specifically, has not a single line of text describing its dependency on any perk point investments.
 

 

It does, actually, if you look at the magazines. It tells you putting points into Advanced Engineering or Lockpicking will help you find more of them.

[Scyris]

5 hours ago, The Civillian said:

I feel that the game needs to weight the perks you choose a bit higher than it currently does.

WHen tools, cooking and repair tool are keeping up with two chosen weapon perks you have an issue.

 

Your forgetting the other part to the mag drops: the fact they drop where they are approiate. Cooking is easy to max as basically ever cupboard in a poi has a chance and often does, drop a cooking mag. In real life (yes I know you shouldn't compare the two but this one kinda fits) I get alot of fliers in the mail that have to do with tools and sales on them, so this is why you find alot of them in mail boxes.

 

The issue here, is some of the sources for some of the magazines are rare. Like most t1-2 poi's are houses, so that limits what you can find. The vehicle mag is one of the rarest followed by workstations. I only ever find workstation mags usually inside broken workstations and rarely anywhere else.

[Scyris]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

Here is where the Learn by Reading system makes a lot more sense to me than the Learn by Doing ever did. Learn by Doing is accurate for developing muscle memory for physical tasks you already know how to do. You don't learn anything new by repeating a simple action over and over and over and over again. All you do is get better and faster at doing the exact simple task you are repeating. To learn something new you must be taught either by reading a book, being taught by teacher who already has the knowledge, or through personal experimentation with lots of failure, or direct inspiration by a higher being/universe. It really isn't learning by doing so much as it is mastery by doing what you already understand.

 

The type of knowledge that we acquire in this game is much more along the lines of learning something new that cannot be easily learned without some form of tutoring. Just repeating a simple task over and over and over again is never going to bequeath the knowledge that you need to learn to do craft and improve in the areas of the game-- particularly crafting. The mechanic of discovering old world knowledge that helps you acquire new knowledge is much more believable than the idea that doing the simplest task you can 100s of times will help you learn how to do something new.

 

Now physical actions such as swinging a club or thrusting a spear or shooting an arrow-- yes, learn by doing would definitely be more believable in those cases than reading about those activities. The good news is that learn by reading doesn't increase those types of physical skills. Those you increase through the skillpoint system by doing a variety of survival activities. Skillpoints is what replaced learn by doing because for those who play the game organically, there really isn't a whole lot of difference between learn by doing and skillpoint spending. The only time skillpoint spending feels off is for those who optimize by finding one simple activity that earns lots of xp and grinding that to rack up a ton of points to max out some unrelated skill. Playing that way is an option, for sure, but it doesn't have to be played that way. Skillpoint spending's strength is that players can do focus most on what they feel is fun but still improve in areas that might become more fun to them once their skill is high enough. With LBD I can only improve mining by mining which sucks if I don't enjoy mining--especially with low stamina and poor tools.  WIth skillpoints I can do other activities that are fun and then use points to improve my mining skill so that when I do start mining it is more enjoyable. That versatility is why my preference edges to skillpoint spending over LBD.

 

The new Learn by Reading system is awesome because it fits so well with the type of knowledge acquisition we are experiencing. If we were lost in an apocalyptic world with nobody to teach us how to do new things we've never done before then we absolutely would be at the mercy of the luck of whatever old world knowledge we could discover to help us learn.

 

Now aside from all of that, it is a ton of fun. I know not everyone is going to agree what is fun or not but for me, the new system really has refreshed the game and the logic of it is not as bad as some people are casting it. To me, it really seems that the same people who were mad that LBD was cut are the ones that are completely unaccepting of learn by reading. They haven't wanted anything other than LBD and won't ever want anything other than LBD. I'm sure there are probably also some people who started in A20 that don't like the change with no thought of LBD but they seem to be less hostile and angry.

 

 

Not if most of your looting is kitchens, hardware stores, and gas stations... Location, location, location!

 

 

Anything seems to be magic to the person who cannot comprehend how it happens.

 

Thats why you limit learn by doing to what makes sense: melee weapons, guns, and wrench/harvesting tools. LBD skill effects headshot damage, maybe a small bonus to damage/reload speed/fire rate etc, and the LBD skill governs what level say, Pummel pete/the +attack speed perk you can learn. You can stack this on top of the learn by reading system to handle craft recipes/quality. No one wants craft quality directly linked to learn by doing (this was a big issue in a16.4 and the ONLY real big issue the skill system a16.4 used had really). We just want weapons (both melee and gun) and tools like wrench/pickaxe/axe/shovel and their related perks to be unlinked from stats. With Sex t-rex being removed, using other weapons basically is a non-option if it uses stamina, as you have to invest so heavily into the weapons line to get the stam use down to a resonable level. Compared to before where all you needed was 5 str and maxxed sex t-rex to at least have all weapons and tools somewhat useable, least stamina wasn't a problem then. I still feel Sex t-rex as it orignally was should be put back into str, and let the player choose if they wanna focus on their weapon line/stat of choice, or invest a bit into str for global stamina use reductions. Could have the game apply whichever has the bigger bonus.

 

Players like having choice, and one big issue since a17+ in 7dtd is the devs keep removing more and more choice and sandbox elements from the game and its players. With no way to have a option to enable/disable that feature, or like the case with sex t-rex, no option to go the other route, were just shoehorned down a narrow tunnel that has no turns anymore. This is the big issue I have with the game and I am pretty sure I am not alone. TFP have done some very questionable changes since a17, but never add's it on top of the orignal choice, its always a "You must play this way" never a "you can play this orignal way, OR go the new way." This is the biggest issue the game seems to have, well that and the fact the devs keep redoing game systems instead of putting actual new things into the game, like new tier of zombies, items, quests, story etc.

 

I've been part of many early access titles, and so far 7dtd has been the most wishy-washy/confusing i've ever seen as the devs don't even seem to know themselves what they want, and cannot seem to ever decide on something and lock it in. I understand its a alpha, this is the stage this stuff happens, but come on, its been almost 10 years, its getting silly how this game is not gold yet, or even in a beta state. Many players are just confused/wondering where this game is going as not even the devs themselves seem to have a clue, and they don't really seem to wanna tell us the players where its going either. Most EA titles are out 1-2 years after they go into EA, sometimes less, so the fact 7dtd is not even in beta when its coming up on 10 years old is kinda just sad.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like the game, If I didn't i'd not even be posting here for how long i've been around, but if I had to be blunt, vanilla hasn't gone anywhere in the last 4+ years or more, other than graphically anyway.

[RipClaw]

24 minutes ago, Roland said:

How is that a flaw in an open-world game that is meant to be explored? You mean it is a flaw for those who expect to be able to gain all the knowledge they can from the first moment of the game every single time they start a new game?

No, I mean a flaw for all those who don't want to waste time running around hoping to find something and instead want to do something productive. All this exploring and looting never appealed to me. I'd rather build something of my own.

[Scyris]

25 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

No, I mean a flaw for all those who don't want to waste time running around hoping to find something and instead want to do something productive. All this exploring and looting never appealed to me. I'd rather build something of my own.

 

Sadly 7dtd may not be the game for you anymore, not trying to be a jerk here but its the truth, TFP doesn't seem to care how the player wants to play, its their way or @%$# off basically. I had a feeling the learn by reading was going to get some people tilted as some players just like to mine or build, and now they are forced to loot and do quests in order to get the tools to do so. I've not even managed to unlock the cement mixer in any a21 run so far. Workstation mags are just too damn rare, almost get them exclusivly from broken workstations and never anywhere else. IMO they should be in: Working Stiff, Pass N Gas, Lab Equipment and Gun crates, broken workstations too of course. All of those crafting types need the work bench and forge etc as part of it, so it should be more widely available than it is considering most things NEED a workbench.