A21 Learn by reading: a cool system, but super imbalanced.

[Kosmic Kerman]

On 6/13/2023 at 2:47 AM, OgreSlayeR said:

I mean that's not a big of difference, have you found a Crack-A-Book store and hit every mail box etc? That is what really seemed to get me a ton of mags fast and also taking the mag reward from the trader which gives a lot. I also did put 3 into Spears, but I didn't think it would be weighted that much based off what they said otherwise I have just godlike RNG.

 

Right now I'm on Day 4 and managed to craft a tier 4 Iron Spear and personally I thought the primitive tech would last a bit longer, but I also played the Undead Legacy mod some, so...

Do you think the devs should be balancing for the amount of magazines people obtain from questing or the amount people obtain from purely focusing on looting magazines?  Are you playing 60 minute days?

[OgreSlayeR]

2 hours ago, Kosmic Kerman said:

Do you think the devs should be balancing for the amount of magazines people obtain from questing or the amount people obtain from purely focusing on looting magazines?  Are you playing 60 minute days?

I'm playing everything on default settings besides on a higher difficulty.  I do realize now a lot of it comes down to the RNG of your world which is probably another issue (played another world since then and got terrible RNG like almost 2 KM from a trader that wasn't near a city at all). I got lucky being spawned near a city with a trader on that previous play through.

 

I think it should be balanced for questing and looting, but I think the Crack-A-Book stores give way too many magazines at the moment. I think having each book pile giving 3 different kinds of books is a lot, maybe it could be a rare chance a book pile could give that many but most would give 1? I do like the idea of those stores being valuable, but maybe not THAT strong. I also think the trader giving a total of 9 books as a reward is a bit much. I think a total of 3 books would be better personally.

 

I'm not sure how the devs feel about it (I would like if they comment about their intended progression speed), but if it was up to me as I stated before I would ideally have you during the first whole week in just primitive stuff. Ideally you would end the week with mostly Q6 primitive stuff or at least 5.  Around the second week you would start to craft/find/buy higher tech iron stuff and so on. By week 3 it could be maybe the same for steel stuff. Also as stated before they need to fix the disparity between going from a Q5 to a Q1 of the next tier of weapons. Iron should never be weaker than stone. It needs to be a smooth linear progression where you look forward to the next quality and then tier of weapons.

 

 

Edited June 15, 2023 by OgreSlayeR (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

1 hour ago, OgreSlayeR said:

I think it should be balanced for questing and looting, but I think the Crack-A-Book stores give way too many magazines at the moment.

That's funny because in A20 it was the other way round. You mainly got paper and only a few schematics or books.

That was also one of the main concerns about the Learn by Reading system, that this trend would continue and you would only find heaps of paper and no magazines.

 

1 hour ago, OgreSlayeR said:

I'm not sure how the devs feel about it (I would like if they comment about their intended progression speed), but if it was up to me as I stated before I would ideally have you during the first whole week in just primitive stuff.

I actually had only primitive weapons and tools for the first week. I fought my first horde with a Q5 wooden club.

Currently I am on day 10 and have Q5 iron tools. I could theoretical craft steel tools but don't have enough parts. So this will take a while but is not a big deal.

 

What I could buy from the trader is pretty much on par with what I can craft but that's only because I haven't invested any points in Daring Adventurer and limit myself to one quest per day. Otherwise, the trader would sell me T3 items by now.

 

Edited June 15, 2023 by RipClaw (see edit history)

[Greymantle]

How are they going to balance this around solo play and multi-play is anyone's guess. I will just scrap the whole thing when we get a mod for it.

Edited June 15, 2023 by Greymantle (see edit history)

[pApA^LeGBa]

In SP i am gonna get rich af with those magazines. Not sure about balance yet, but it does slow down progression wich was much needed. Not like that though.

 

I just don´t like how this system isn´t immersive at all. Like so many things in this game now. Weird sounds, zombies hiding in the weirdest places just to make sneak shots impossible. This game turned from a immersive survival experience into an arcade loot shooter and if i want that i play Borderlands.

Edited June 15, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Cattrina]

I am on day 19 (3rd real life day) and I cannot build a workbench. I cannot find the forge magazines anywhere. And as I am night blind there is nothing for me to do during nights (yes gamma and brightness are up).

[RipClaw]

5 minutes ago, Cattrina said:

I am on day 19 (3rd real life day) and I cannot build a workbench. I cannot find the forge magazines anywhere. And as I am night blind there is nothing for me to do during nights (yes gamma and brightness are up).

Put a point into Advanced Engineering. That should increase your chances to find more magazines but it is random after all. I got most of my forge magazines from magazine bundles for completing trader quests.

Edited June 15, 2023 by RipClaw (see edit history)

[Cattrina]

22 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

Put a point into Advanced Engineering. That should increase your chances to find more magazines but it is random after all. I got most of my forge magazines from magazine bundles for completing trader quests.

 

I did, it is just this game became a looting-first person shooter, when it used to be survival-crafting-base building. It was one of my favorite games and I have been waiting for the bandits to make it hit every itch. But it looks like I must stay at A20 if I wanna keep playing *sighs*.  I just do not enjoy hacknslash or FP shooters. Because building a self-sustaining base is the main goal for me.

[RipClaw]

10 minutes ago, Cattrina said:

Because building a self-sustaining base is the main goal for me.

Same here.

 

I am doing one quest a day and so far the progress is reasonable, although in some areas not as fast as in A20. In other areas it is almost too fast.

 

This is the drawback of the Learn by Reading system. It depends a lot on luck. Personally, I'm not a fan of relying on luck, so the ability to unlock recipes via perks was a good thing if you were unlucky in your search for the schematics.

 

[v3tro]

On 6/13/2023 at 9:47 AM, OgreSlayeR said:

I mean that's not a big of difference, have you found a Crack-A-Book store and hit every mail box etc? That is what really seemed to get me a ton of mags fast and also taking the mag reward from the trader which gives a lot.

 

But that`s a one time thing, no? You looted all the mail boxes and crack-a-book and now your fast progression comes to halt when you cant find more magazines. 

[pApA^LeGBa]

8 minutes ago, v3tro said:

 

But that`s a one time thing, no? You looted all the mail boxes and crack-a-book and now your fast progression comes to halt when you cant find more magazines. 

 

Loot restock is default at 7 days stay away at least 15 blocks from a container and it will respawn. And there is quests. Once you find a bookstore you should definitly double loot it. 

 

But yeah, this totally removes the ability to turn loot respawn off unless you wanna move from city to city living a nomad life. It´s so arcady, it might be the nail in the coffin with all the other arcade like changes after 5k+ hours. One thing is 100%, i wont buy into early access at their next title. I don´t want to see a game i enjoy going downhill again.

 

I mean i like that it slows down the progress a bit, i am on day 7 and i can do a worckbench btw, but there has to be other ways to slow down the progress than making this a loot shooter.

Edited June 15, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[ElCabong]

If they make it too random, players will not be able to make the build they want. Being able to make a T5 weapon is a function of luck. This may not happen to you the next time you start a new game. Since I use handguns and bows, my progression was very slow until about day 8 and then it speeded up quite a bit. I've started a new game and I'm curious to see if it's the same way in this one. So far it appears to be.

[Lasher]

Don't worry - you'll only have to put up with it until Alpha 26 when they change the progression system yet again to some other bright idea they've had - instead of working on story, bandits or anything else that should have been finished by now...

Of course by then they'll have got rid of mining tools and you'll have to dig up resources by hand because "it wasn't enough of the progression"... or maybe they'll introduce a need for you to go to the lavatory, but you won't be able to USE toilets, you'll have to MAKE one - but to do that you'll have to find enough plumbing magazines.

Roll on 2026...

[boban]

2 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

 

Loot restock is default at 7 days stay away at least 15 blocks from a container and it will respawn. And there is quests. Once you find a bookstore you should definitly double loot it. 

 

But yeah, this totally removes the ability to turn loot respawn off unless you wanna move from city to city living a nomad life. It´s so arcady, it might be the nail in the coffin with all the other arcade like changes after 5k+ hours. One thing is 100%, i wont buy into early access at their next title. I don´t want to see a game i enjoy going downhill again.

 

I mean i like that it slows down the progress a bit, i am on day 7 and i can do a worckbench btw, but there has to be other ways to slow down the progress than making this a loot shooter.

 

Relaying on loot respawns and double looting buildings doesn't seem like a great mechanic for the game 😐 (btw. I'm back to A20 Darkness Falls. I liked a lot about A21, but this LBR aspect is what drove me away. Hopefully major mods for A21 will revert back LBR or it will be balanced way batter than it currently is).

Edited June 15, 2023 by boban (see edit history)

[ijese]

3 hours ago, Cattrina said:

 

I did, it is just this game became a looting-first person shooter, when it used to be survival-crafting-base building. It was one of my favorite games and I have been waiting for the bandits to make it hit every itch. But it looks like I must stay at A20 if I wanna keep playing *sighs*.  I just do not enjoy hacknslash or FP shooters. Because building a self-sustaining base is the main goal for me.

Same here, but so far happy on these settings:
No traders, 50% loot, dead-is-dead, random map on default settings.

 

It's day 13, set up shop on city outskirts. I have q5 wooden club with some mods, some pipe weapons, q6 primitive bow and just made a forge. 

Days 3 and 4 was dying of thirst half of the time, but then found the water purifier. If I didn't, I would have 'crafted' myself a dew collector from creative menu once unlocked.

Eggs are fine now on 50% loot, found 20+ so far (which wasn't happening on prior versions with these loot settings).

[Roland]

5 hours ago, Cattrina said:

 

I did, it is just this game became a looting-first person shooter, when it used to be survival-crafting-base building. It was one of my favorite games and I have been waiting for the bandits to make it hit every itch. But it looks like I must stay at A20 if I wanna keep playing *sighs*.  I just do not enjoy hacknslash or FP shooters. Because building a self-sustaining base is the main goal for me.

It’s interesting that you say that when in every game I play with A21 I am still surviving, crafting, and building. I’m still prepping for horde nights. I’m still doing everything I have done plus more since I began playing this game. 
 

Another thing that is interesting is that you talk about how much you dislike the amount of looting and shooting but at the same time can’t wait for bandits. What do you think bandits are going to bring to the game if not more looting and shooting?  Did you think the bandits are going to help you survive, craft, and build? They’re not. They will be new targets to shoot and their lairs will be new places to loot. 

 

This game is meant to be played in the default version by doing many activities that complement each other. Only wanting to focus on a few of them is fine but it is going to require some adjustments to settings or modding. Maybe it used to not be that way but that was only because there were so many unfinished aspects of the game. 
 

Perhaps things aren’t turning out the way you and some others wanted but to say this game is only a looter shooter when it used to be a survival crafting and building game is simply a narrow and extreme view. Most players still build, craft, survive, loot, shoot, melee, explore, cook, mine, farm, quest, and accomplish whatever personal objectives they’ve given themselves. And that is because, in reality, all of those elements are still in the game despite the extreme perspective of a few. 

 

Thankfully there are mods for people who want to change the game to whatever they think defines a game as a survival, crafting, and building game. 

Edited June 15, 2023 by Roland (see edit history)

[Vaeliorin]

5 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

In SP i am gonna get rich af with those magazines. Not sure about balance yet, but it does slow down progression wich was much needed. Not like that though.

It slows down progression in some things, but not in others.  I could make q5 iron tools on Day 3.  I'm on day 11 now, and have a q5 iron spear.

 

Unfortunately, looting for gear seems worthless so far, outside of armor.  I'm still finding stone stuff (admittedly q6) but can make q2 motor tools.

[boban]

14 minutes ago, Roland said:

 there were so many unfinished aspects of the game.

 

Are

[pApA^LeGBa]

25 minutes ago, Roland said:

It’s interesting that you say that when in every game I play with A21 I am still surviving, crafting, and building. I’m still prepping for horde nights. I’m still doing everything I have done plus more since I began playing this game. 
 

Another thing that is interesting is that you talk about how much you dislike the amount of looting and shooting but at the same time can’t wait for bandits. What do you think bandits are going to bring to the game if not more looting and shooting?  Did you think the bandits are going to help you survive, craft, and build? They’re not. They will be new targets to shoot and their lairs will be new places to loot. 

 

This game is meant to be played in the default version by doing many activities that complement each other. Only wanting to focus on a few of them is fine but it is going to require some adjustments to settings or modding. Maybe it used to not be that way but that was only because there were so many unfinished aspects of the game. 
 

Perhaps things aren’t turning out the way you and some others wanted but to say this game is only a looter shooter when it used to be a survival crafting and building game is simply a narrow and extreme view. Most players still build, craft, survive, loot, shoot, melee, explore, cook, mine, farm, quest, and accomplish whatever personal objectives they’ve given themselves. And that is because, in reality, all of those elements are still in the game desire the extreme perspective of a few. 

 

Thankfully there are mods for people who want to change the game to whatever they think defines a game as a survival, crafting, and building game. 

 

 

You need to loot to the extreme to keep up with your gamestage. Especially if you don´t want to stay in the forest the whole game. So yeah, it´s looting, looting and more looting. Wich many did before, but now it´s a must for everyone. The freedom is gone. It´s linear now.  Combined with all the arcady stuff added it´s very much a loot shooter with survival and tower defense elements. Wich no one could tell by looking at the kickstarter or even just looking at the development from release up to A20. So no, i don´t think loot shooter is an extreme point of view here. 

 

Edited June 15, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[canadianbluebeer]

Getting the books is one thing, getting the PARTS, well....

 

Day 9 (90min days), and the books while plentiful, you do need a bunch to get to the GOOD stuff.

 

Agonizing over taking the bullets or books as quest reward.

 

Grinding a bunch to spend 15k on a crucible to make steel.  (Jen had one.  got to 15,036 dukes...)  

 

Finally got to where I could cook tacos/chilidogs and now shepards pie.  That took a LOT of cocckery books.

(psgetti is next.. my fav)

Can't make many of the good foods, but have over 200 meat and 78 eggs.  (yes, eggs are plentiful, and chickens/wabbits and bambi...)

 

Still can't get motorized transport yet, and GAS is miserly. Have a couple hundred shale that A) don't know how to make gas, B) can't make chemstation yet.

 

So, yeah, some books climb fast, but doesn't mean you can DO much with it.

However, since you CAN make lower tier stuff out of what you do have....

 

Oh, water for making glue -> duct tape  -> stuff  is still slow.

 

Gonna buy a buncha tape soon.  75 per tape, yet 120 for 1 water.  umm...

 

I'm a fan of the books now.

[boban]

5 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

You need to loot to the extreme to keep up with your gamestage. Especially if don´t wanna stay in the forest the whole game. So yeah, it´s looting, looting and more looting.

 

They designed all those beautiful POIs, so you should be forced to visit them! /s

 

Seriously though, that was the trend since A17 (since introduction of 'dungeon' type POIs). I don't mind looting, I like to vary my game. But now I feel that if I'm not looting, I'm wasting my time / not progressing. I.e., now I feel like I'm forced to constantly loot and do quests.

[Lasher]

18 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

Perhaps things aren’t turning out the way you and some others wanted but to say this game is only a looter shooter when it used to be a survival crafting and building game is simply a narrow and extreme view. Most players still build, craft, survive, loot, shoot, melee, explore, cook, mine, farm, quest, and accomplish whatever personal objectives they’ve given themselves. And that is because, in reality, all of those elements are still in the game desire the extreme perspective of a few. 

 

 

 

It's interesting to me that every time TFP change a mechanic that people don't particularly like the feedback is that they're being "Narrow minded" and "Extreme".

Yes players are still crafting and building, because they HAVE to - but what does the new progression system do for their progression I wonder?

 

Here's an idea - seeing as there seems to be a general sentiment that it's a "minority" view - how about we put up a pole on the front page of the forums - "Which type of progression did you prefer - Learn by doing, Skill perks, Or the new Learn by Looting"?

 

Now, I'm not suggesting that TFP would EVER change the system back based on player feedback - that's just not their way - we're supposed to play the game the way THEY want us to play it (the very definition of sandbox <sarc>) but it would once and for all put to bed the idea that these are "Minority" opinions by "narrow minded and extreme" players.

 

I posted some time ago that people may not like these changes and was met with replies of "well we're sure they'll change it if people don't" - Nonsense.

 

So how about a poll?

Sound fair?

 

[boban]

3 minutes ago, Lasher said:

it would once and for all put to bed the idea that these are "Minority" opinions by "narrow minded and extreme" players.

 

It wouldn't. You'll hear and argument that "average forum poster isn't an average player". Which I can guess is valid response. If they would put a poll on the start menu of the game that might be better (but not without issues as well, e.g., possibly majority of current players never experienced LBD before A17).

Edited June 15, 2023 by boban (see edit history)

[Lasher]

6 minutes ago, boban said:

 

It wouldn't. You'll hear and argument that "average forum poster isn't an average player". Which I can guess is valid response. If they would put a poll on the start menu of the game that might be better (but not without issues as well, e.g., possibly majority of current players never experienced LBD before A17).

 

Yeah - true enough - not that it would make a blind bit of difference anyway - but it would be funny to see the results.

[Roland]

35 minutes ago, Lasher said:

 

It's interesting to me that every time TFP change a mechanic that people don't particularly like the feedback is that they're being "Narrow minded" and "Extreme".

Yes players are still crafting and building, because they HAVE to - but what does the new progression system do for their progression I wonder?

 

Here's an idea - seeing as there seems to be a general sentiment that it's a "minority" view - how about we put up a pole on the front page of the forums - "Which type of progression did you prefer - Learn by doing, Skill perks, Or the new Learn by Looting"?

 

Now, I'm not suggesting that TFP would EVER change the system back based on player feedback - that's just not their way - we're supposed to play the game the way THEY want us to play it (the very definition of sandbox <sarc>) but it would once and for all put to bed the idea that these are "Minority" opinions by "narrow minded and extreme" players.

 

I posted some time ago that people may not like these changes and was met with replies of "well we're sure they'll change it if people don't" - Nonsense.

 

So how about a poll?

Sound fair?

 

Its not the criticism that prompted me to say they were being narrow-minded. It was their apparent definition of what makes a game a survival, crafting, building game because if this isn’t one then nothing is. 
 

A poll? Go ahead. Users can create polls. We can do one now and another in a few months for the first impression result and then the more long term game loop view. 
 

I never said they would change it if people didn’t like it. I said they may make adjustments to it if people didn’t like it. But right now it is a very mixed bag with quite a few people also very much enjoying it. It is going to take a few months to get a clear picture. Some people who like it initially may change their mind after a long term play and some who dislike it at first try will change their mind and like it after a long term play. 
 

it’s still the first week. 

Edited June 15, 2023 by Roland (see edit history)