Original Promises and Plans and the Current State of the Game

[Viktoriusiii]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

So does it have to be a named and defined character for it to be a role playing game or perhaps do some RPGs actually get in their own way making it so the player is playing out that character’s story instead of being able to unconsciously inject themselves into the role?

 

Yea you actually brought that up a couple of times...
but that is not how genre defines itself.
If you feel like it makes roleplaying easier, I am happy for you. But just because I can roleplay as a roughed veteran that lost his wife and kids in a shooter like Call of Duty that rather charges straight in because he has nothing to live for instead of tacticially aproaching the enemy (which is technicially a choice) does not make it an RPG.
The genre is define by what the game offers, not what the players make of it.

 

30 minutes ago, Roland said:

So debate over then. You concede that the progression was taken from the RPG genre which means you acknowledge that this game is a mix of genres of which RPGs are one. Since neither I nor TFP ever claimed that this game is an RPG, it seems we are in the clear.

No.

It is a mechanic that is prevalent in RPGs, but not restricted to this genre, nor is it a necessity.
Just because basicially every cat has ears, does not mean everything that has ears has "cat like elements" to it.
But that is exactly what you are trying to imply here. I granted that your animal has ears, which is the closest thing to a cat that it has.
That does not make it a cat. Actually it implies that it is so far removed from a cat that the only shared feature is the ears.

 

The game is missing the genre defining features. So calling it an RPG is like calling a platypus a duck because of the similar feet and bill as well as name.
It is misleading, because it is missing the core element.

[Roland]

1 hour ago, Viktoriusiii said:

So calling it an RPG

Except you’re the only one calling it that. If you’re bugged that I made the point about a nameless character being easy to step into as a player a couple of times then you must be going crazy over how many times you keep calling this game an RPG. And not only that but you keep stating that TFP is claiming that this game is an RPG when they clearly are not. 
 

Let’s finally agree, shall we? 7 Days to Die is not an RPG. You can stop saying that now. 
 

Is 7 Days to Die a cross genre amalgamation of some elements from 1st person shooters, survival horror, RPGs, and tower defense? 
 

Absolutely. The character progression system is obviously inspired by Fallout. If it wasn’t obvious then you can take the word of the developers who have stated that their game is almost an homage of one of their favorite game series. Is Fallout not an RPG?  If it is (it is) then we have proof that the character progression system directly came from an RPG. So it doesn’t just happen to have a similar mechanic that lots of non-RPGs also just happen to have nor did it take its inspiration from an RPG that has no character progression system. The character progression is role based was inspired by an RPG and is obviously an element of many RPGs not the least of which is the Grand Daddy of RPGs, itself, Dungeons and Dragons. 
 

Next. 😺
 

[Roland]

5 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

A role-playing game (sometimes spelled roleplaying game, RPG) is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting or through a process of structured decision-making regarding character development.

1) Do players assume the role of the character on the screen?

 

Most definitely yes. I’ve belabored this point so I’ll stop with that. 
 

2) Is the setting a fictional setting?

 

Most definitely a zombie post-apocalyptic world is a fictional one. 
 

3) Do players take responsibility for acting out their roles?

 

Absolutely. The game creates a setting and a structure for the player to act out the role they develop through choices. The game doesn’t force the player to do this but players can certainly do it and it has been specifically designed in this fashion by Joel Huenink who does play the game in this fashion. 
 

4) Is there a narrative?

 

Not a scripted narrative but the open world setting does allow for emergent narratives that can be played out. A more structured narrative is planned but even that will not force players to play out a linear scripted story. 
 

5) Does literal acting occur?

 

On some servers it does I know for certain. Are players forced to literally act out a role?  No. But they can. There is enough structure to support a group doing literal acting as they play. 
 

6) Is there structures decision-making regarding character development?

 

Yes. The whole skillpoint system and especially with desirable perks being in separate trees makes for some definite decision making and those choices greatly impact how you will play the game. A strength structure choice is going to be a much different role than a perception structure choice. 
 

Is that enough alignment to the definition you provided of what an actual RPG is for us to claim that “RPG” is one of the genres that makes 7 Days to Die the game it is?
 

I think so. 

[Viktoriusiii]

38 minutes ago, Roland said:

Except you’re the only one calling it that. If you’re bugged that I made the point about a nameless character being easy to step into as a player a couple of times then you must be going crazy over how many times you keep calling this game an RPG. And not only that but you keep stating that TFP is claiming that this game is an RPG when they clearly are not. 

Yes they are.
It has NOT A SINGLE ELEMENT that is RPG specific. It just doesnt.
That would be like saying Bloons TD is a Townbuilder because you place down towers.

You are trying to argue the wrong point here roland.
What players pretend to do with the game is not in any way relevant here.
 

1) no they dont. They have no character. They have a voice, but nothing more. What the player interprets is not important to the genre.
2) Okay. Just not a defining element.
3) What kind of narrative progression is there? You live in a bubble. An unaffected, unchanging bubble. Nothing you do matters to anything but yourself.

In MMO-RPGs it doesnt matter for other players, but your personal world changes.

4) No there isn't. There is static worldbuilding. But that is all there is.
5) Irelevant again. Players don't make the game a genre.
6) Distributing points does not make a roleplaying character. It is certainly one possible part of an RPG, but without a character or narrative, they are just stats that tell you nothing about the character. This is the closest thing to an RPG it gets and it is so far away from what makes an RPG an RPG as to make it laughable.

Yes the discussion is settled. But not the way you pretend it is.

[Roland]

Well, we have to agree to disagree. Thank you for your thoughts on the original promises and current status of the game. 

[meganoth]

5 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

....

1) no they dont. They have no character. They have a voice, but nothing more. What the player interprets is not important to the genre.

 

If we were talking about pen&paper then it would be the players interpretation that is almost all that matters.

 

Interestingly one of the computer RPG pioneers (Urqhard from Obsidian) has been saying that "Disco Elysium" is not an RPG because the character is fixed and for him that makes it not an RPG. I supose he would give the undefined character of 7D2D a pass for RPGishness. 😉

 

[Viktoriusiii]

6 hours ago, meganoth said:

If we were talking about pen&paper then it would be the players interpretation that is almost all that matters.

Huh? If that were true, why does it need a DM?
The DM creates, shapes and directs the world and players.
If the players could do whatever without any continuity, it wouldnt be an RPG anymore.
An RPG needs (percieved) consequences and a story. Once nothing you do actually matters, it isn't an RPG anymore, it is a sandbox.
Which 7D2D absolutely is. "Do whatever! Freedom!"
 

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, Viktoriusiii said:

Huh? If that were true, why does it need a DM?
The DM creates, shapes and directs the world and players.

 

The world yes, the player not. Read a typical DM-manual of an RPG, you will often find suggestions to the DM to leave character design to the player and never a hint that one of the tasks of the DM is to create the player characters. And even the mechanical character design (HPs, class rules, etc.) is explained in the player part of the manual, not the DM part.

 

And I have never heard of a DM design the player characters except for characters used for one-day introduction events at fairs. All the DM does is checking that the player does not violate RPG or world rules in designing the character (HPs, class rules, etc. but also back story).

 

1 hour ago, Viktoriusiii said:

If the players could do whatever without any continuity, it wouldnt be an RPG anymore.

 

By presenting rules the DM does not create. Otherwise tell me which computer RPG allows a player to design his character without rules?

 

1 hour ago, Viktoriusiii said:

An RPG needs (percieved) consequences and a story. Once nothing you do actually matters, it isn't an RPG anymore, it is a sandbox.

 

Sure, but in a pen&paper RPG only the mechanical side of consequences is directed by the rules of the game. The development of the character itself is in the hand of the player. He may decide that his character gets more vengeful or he can play the character unchanging in his habits and how he decides. Sometimes mechanical rules simulate this and interfere with this. In Hell on Earth the player can decide to get the hindrance "vengeful" at start, or later through his actions or the DM/rules can put it on a character. But in Pathfinder there is nothing of that and the player is free to keep the character of his toon the same or change it any way he wants.

 

Note that this is exactly the argument of Urquart, that "Disco" is taking all this out of the hand of the player and making it the domain of the computer DM. The player still decides what the detective does, but the detective and his later characterly development is made by the computer.

 

1 hour ago, Viktoriusiii said:

Which 7D2D absolutely is. "Do whatever! Freedom!"
 

 

A popular definition of RPG I heard of had the classification say: An RPG has to have at least 4 of these 7 characteristics (numbers not exact)... . Because there are so many different RPGs that the genre does not have a fixed rule set that is simply true for EVERY thingy out there that is called an RPG

 

PS: I think you can find the rulebook of the first RPG of all time, Gary Gykax D&D, on the net. It is just a few pages to read. But it would easily fail your definition of an RPG. Is D&D a sandbox in your opinion?

 

 

Edited November 28, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Roland]

4 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

Once nothing you do actually matters, it isn't an RPG anymore, it is a sandbox.

Which 7D2D absolutely is. "Do whatever! Freedom!"

 

Wait...have you been playing 7 Days to Die with god mode and creative mode enabled this entire time?!?!?!

 

That would explain a lot...

[meganoth]

By the way, I see now we were not talking about the same thing, we both misread our answers a bit. Notice I was talking about point 1 of the list aka what you said that "They have no character. They have a voice, but nothing more. What the player interprets is not important to the genre.".

 

But when you answered about there being no consequences in the world you were obviously talking about a different characteristic of RPGs, choice and consequences. That the world reacts and is changed by your deeds. I didn't comment on that.

 

 

[SnowDog1942]

6 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

The world yes, the player not. Read a typical DM-manual of an RPG, you will often find suggestions to the DM to leave character design to the player and never a hint that one of the tasks of the DM is to create the player characters. And even the mechanical character design (HPs, class rules, etc.) is explained in the player part of the manual, not the DM part.

 

And I have never heard of a DM design the player characters except for characters used for one-day introduction events at fairs. All the DM does is checking that the player does not violate RPG or world rules in designing the character (HPs, class rules, etc. but also back story).

 

 

By presenting rules the DM does not create. Otherwise tell me which computer RPG allows a player to design his character without rules?

 

 

Sure, but in a pen&paper RPG only the mechanical side of consequences is directed by the rules of the game. The development of the character itself is in the hand of the player. He may decide that his character gets more vengeful or he can play the character unchanging in his habits and how he decides. Sometimes mechanical rules simulate this and interfere with this. In Hell on Earth the player can decide to get the hindrance "vengeful" at start, or later through his actions or the DM/rules can put it on a character. But in Pathfinder there is nothing of that and the player is free to keep the character of his toon the same or change it any way he wants.

 

Note that this is exactly the argument of Urquart, that "Disco" is taking all this out of the hand of the player and making it the domain of the computer DM. The player still decides what the detective does, but the detective and his later characterly development is made by the computer.

 

 

A popular definition of RPG I heard of had the classification say: An RPG has to have at least 4 of these 7 characteristics (numbers not exact)... . Because there are so many different RPGs that the genre does not have a fixed rule set that is simply true for EVERY thingy out there that is called an RPG

 

PS: I think you can find the rulebook of the first RPG of all time, Gary Gykax D&D, on the net. It is just a few pages to read. But it would easily fail your definition of an RPG. Is D&D a sandbox in your opinion?

 

 

 

Not sure what you are going on about brah?  You are roleplaying a survivor in a zombie apocalypse, complete with an RPG progression system that using skill points.   How can you even argue that it contains 0 RPG elements? lol

Edited November 28, 2022 by SnowDog1942 (see edit history)

[Viktoriusiii]

3 hours ago, SnowDog1942 said:

Not sure what you are going on about brah?  You are roleplaying a survivor in a zombie apocalypse, complete with an RPG progression system that using skill points.   How can you even argue that it contains 0 RPG elements? lol

By that definition, everything is a roleplaying game.
Minecraft? You roleplay as steve, with progression being nether and end as well as items.
Fifa? You roleplay as a trainer that builds up his squad, getting better players.
MW2? As stated you roleplay as a grizzled veteran who just wants to die and charges head on. You get better by leveling up and getting better weapons and gear.
Pacman? You roleplay a round blob that wants to eat dots and is being chased by ghosts. His progression is obviously harder levels, which will at the end lead to the demon ghostkings castle. Just no one ever got that far.

Skillpoints are not a feature that define the RPG genre. It supplements it. But is not an indicator.
I don't know what role I play. I am just some dude. There are no choices that affect the gameplay.
If you want to skill into farming or looting is a choice. But buying 5 grandmas or one Cookie factory is also a choice. Doesn't make cookie clicker an RPG.

 

You want to know the only thing this game has in common with an RPG?
 

[Roland]

46 minutes ago, Viktoriusiii said:

By that definition, everything is a roleplaying game.

 

No, but many many games borrow RPG elements. You even stated that many games use character progression systems. Those systems were first introduced into gaming as part of the RPG genre. That other games use them doesn't make them RPGs but those games do utilize that element from RPGs. In exactly the same way 7 Days to Die uses that element of RPGs. 7 Days to Die is not an RPG. It is a hybrid game that borrows elements from classic RPGs.

 

51 minutes ago, Viktoriusiii said:

Skillpoints are not a feature that define the RPG genre. It supplements it. But is not an indicator.

 

You are just out in left field with this opinion. Character progression using skillpoints is a primary feature of RPGs. Name some RPGs that don't have character progression through stat increase as one of their defining features? Whether it is purchasing higher stats through skillpoints or passively gaining higher stats through LBD or selecting new abilities on a grid that branches and forks into myriad trees they are all the same idea across all RPGs: gain experience and then level up and gain new abilities and/or grow stronger in existing abilities. Name any game that had this mechanism that existed before RPGs came along.  If all RPGS use the feature and they were the first to use the feature then it is a defining feature of RPGs that other games in other genres borrow.

 

You are the one trying to redefine what does and what does not matter for a game claiming to be an RPG. I have to believe you are trolling at this point. I can't believe any gamer can honestly claim what you are claiming with a straight face. The things you are insisting upon must be part of an RPG such as decisions that leave a lasting change upon the world are not even mentioned in the official definition that YOU brought into the conversation.

 

Besides and one more time... 7 Days to Die is not a dedicated RPG and doesn't claim to be.

[BFT2020]

Role playing games have evolved as they went from paper / pencil to tabletop to digital games.  Also, there are various sub groups of RPG video games out there

 

• 3.1 Action RPGs.
• 3.2 First-person party-based RPGs.
• 3.3 MMORPGs.
• 3.4 Roguelikes and roguelites.
• 3.5 Sandbox RPGs.
• 3.6 Tactical RPGs.
• 3.7 Hybrid genres.

[Javabean867]

2 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

By that definition, everything is a roleplaying game.
Minecraft? You roleplay as steve, with progression being nether and end as well as items.
Fifa? You roleplay as a trainer that builds up his squad, getting better players.
MW2? As stated you roleplay as a grizzled veteran who just wants to die and charges head on. You get better by leveling up and getting better weapons and gear.
Pacman? You roleplay a round blob that wants to eat dots and is being chased by ghosts. His progression is obviously harder levels, which will at the end lead to the demon ghostkings castle. Just no one ever got that far.

Skillpoints are not a feature that define the RPG genre. It supplements it. But is not an indicator.
I don't know what role I play. I am just some dude. There are no choices that affect the gameplay.
If you want to skill into farming or looting is a choice. But buying 5 grandmas or one Cookie factory is also a choice. Doesn't make cookie clicker an RPG.

 

You want to know the only thing this game has in common with an RPG?
 

Now he is getting it, everything is a role-playing game, hot dogs are sandwiches(basically all food is a sandwich), and all physical descriptions of a dog can be applied to cats.

 

Get over this meaningless hurdle you have over strict definitions of things and you will be much happier

[SnowDog1942]

2 hours ago, Roland said:

 

No, but many many games borrow RPG elements. You even stated that many games use character progression systems. Those systems were first introduced into gaming as part of the RPG genre. That other games use them doesn't make them RPGs but those games do utilize that element from RPGs. In exactly the same way 7 Days to Die uses that element of RPGs. 7 Days to Die is not an RPG. It is a hybrid game that borrows elements from classic RPGs.

 

 

You are just out in left field with this opinion. Character progression using skillpoints is a primary feature of RPGs. Name some RPGs that don't have character progression through stat increase as one of their defining features? Whether it is purchasing higher stats through skillpoints or passively gaining higher stats through LBD or selecting new abilities on a grid that branches and forks into myriad trees they are all the same idea across all RPGs: gain experience and then level up and gain new abilities and/or grow stronger in existing abilities. Name any game that had this mechanism that existed before RPGs came along.  If all RPGS use the feature and they were the first to use the feature then it is a defining feature of RPGs that other games in other genres borrow.

 

You are the one trying to redefine what does and what does not matter for a game claiming to be an RPG. I have to believe you are trolling at this point. I can't believe any gamer can honestly claim what you are claiming with a straight face. The things you are insisting upon must be part of an RPG such as decisions that leave a lasting change upon the world are not even mentioned in the official definition that YOU brought into the conversation.

 

Besides and one more time... 7 Days to Die is not a dedicated RPG and doesn't claim to be.

Bravo.  Much better and nicely put than I would have responded.  Not even sure why he cares so much.  Kind of funny.

 

Vik,  How about we pretend 7 days has 0 roleplay elements.   It still is the same game as it is.  Either play it or dont lol.  

[Roland]

I do appreciate that Vik wants the game to be improved beyond what it currently is in regards to RPG gameplay. There are improvements planned. By stating that the promise for a hybrid game that includes RPG, 1st person shooter, tower defense, and survival horror elements is 100% fulfilled, I wasn’t saying that they’re done improving. I was simply stating that if they did no further work, they could technically call it done. There is a story planned and factions as well which also will add to the RPG part of the game. 

[Flycatcher]

They could have added a bit more survival element, some of the things they cut over the years would have been great to have still in game like the food poisoning, zombies smelling if you had food on you and the recipe's having more components.

 

The old weapon system, not that it was better than the one now just that it was unique and different from any other game I seen.

Kind of hope that if they make a sequel of 7days, they make a combo of the old style part level and putting them together makes weapon level and the mod system for weapons now.  

[warmer]

If you have ever worked in software dev, you know that the word "promise" is never used when discussing intended deliverables.

[Matt115]

On 11/27/2022 at 7:43 PM, Roland said:

@Matt115 wishes there was more survival horror in the mixture and maybe

Still i hope that their next game will be horror game

[Roland]

6 hours ago, warmer said:

If you have ever worked in software dev, you know that the word "promise" is never used when discussing intended deliverables.

 

Except where software development and kickstarter crowd-funding intersect...

[unholyjoe]

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

Still i hope that their next game will be horror game

define horror (and leave the skeletons out this time) and i am sure the next game wont be a horror as you perceive.

 

[Matt115]

1 hour ago, unholyjoe said:

define horror (and leave the skeletons out this time) and i am sure the next game wont be a horror as you perceive.

 

To be honest.... everything depend on how this will be made. There is a game condemned 1 & 2 . 1 is more like thriller - yes there is few "paranormal" moments but this can be even explained as main character halucinations. there is a "invisible" border within when something is or not. And standards are changing  - well return of living dead from 1985  i would called in 1985 as horror movie while in 2022 looks more like zombie horror parody like shawn  of the dead.  and then there is perspective problem - Friday the 13 is know horror series right? But... 1980 i would say thay friday 13 is triller not horror . Why? no paranormal/ unexplained things - just old woman with delusions - she told on the end on the movie that Jason is alive but before sequel we could presume that she is mental ill person. From other hand - there is "horror" movie (i don't remember name) - a couple of criminals found dead owner of hostel so they are pretending they are owner during storm. People start dying like in typical horror movie etc. but almost near end of the movie we learn that.... doesn't happend and it was just "version" of serial killer because he was thinking he is diffrent person. So before watch - you can say this is horror during reading describtion but after seeing ending - proper type of this movie would be thriller

Edited November 29, 2022 by Matt115 (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

11 hours ago, Matt115 said:

Still i hope that their next game will be horror game

In the next game you will manage a company that develops a game called "7 Days to die". And the game after that will be another end time game in which you will find a game development studio during a mission that worked on a game called "7 Days to die".

 

[Roland]

4 hours ago, RipClaw said:

In the next game you will manage a company that develops a game called "7 Days to die". And the game after that will be another end time game in which you will find a game development studio during a mission that worked on a game called "7 Days to die".

 

He said ‘horror’ not ‘horrifying’…😂