Original Promises and Plans and the Current State of the Game

[Matt115]

6 hours ago, Old Crow said:

I wouldn't consider either to be boss zombies at all, especially since you can have multiple show up at once and they go down fairly easily. There simply aren't any boss zombies and likely won't be. Would be nice if there were, but the one boss zombie, the Behemoth, was abandoned for reasons unknown to me.

In many games you can fight with this same time with bosses even in this same time. Reasons were simple - AI and animations system

[DanLW]

13 hours ago, Roland said:

We've discussed sanity in the past and just like spoilage it seems to divide the community pretty evenly into haters and lovers of the feature. I'd be for both features as the more things to manage is awesome in my book but there seem to be plenty who just look at sanity and spoilage as just more unfun grindy mechanics.

 

Sanity, wellness, food spoilage, degrading tools and weapons, withering crops-- bring it all on, uh, modders...

 

Yes, can't wait for the more in-depth mods brought on by modders who can put more time into the mod because they don't have to worry about it getting broke by the next alpha!

 

My idea of sanity would be it is not a meter to manage.  It is just a product of slowly going into panic and desperation as hunger and thirst increases, even more so if injured.  Basically a psychological pressure that doesn't affect gameplay.  Hmmm... maybe I should try my hand at SDX Harmony  modding.  I see sound replacement mods, but I wonder if it is possible to get sounds to play randomly based off a computation of hunger/thirst/injury status... time to ask questions in the modding forum!

Edited October 21, 2022 by DanLW
Learned that SDX is so A18... (see edit history)

[McCog]

Are NPCs a plan? I mean legitimate NPCs not human shaped vending machines.

[Roland]

7 hours ago, McCog said:

Are NPCs a plan? I mean legitimate NPCs not human shaped vending machines.

 

This game is not a dedicated fully featured RPG. It has RPG elements. Therefore, your expectations on exactly how sophisticated NPCs will be should be measured. There is supposed to eventually be a reputation system which seems to indicate that some bandits will be hostile and others friendly depending on the reputation we have earned with their faction. Does this mean we can take them as followers and they will live in our base and be able to do tasks? I wouldn't count on that. Does that mean they might give us a quest or trade with us? Possibly. Will we have long conversation trees with them and learn their backstories? I doubt it.

 

I think it will probably simply be that if you go into a bandit occupied POI and your rep is hostile with them it will be a shoot out but if your rep is friendly with them you can move within the POI and not be attacked and they ignore you. Could you upgrade that POI and fortify it and then fight a bloodmoon with all those friendly bandits by your side? Maybe. It will all depend on how much time the devs have.

 

Of course they have to get bandits in the game in the first place and at first the bandits will always be hostile. Reputation and rules governing how they behave in your proximity when friendly will come later but I wouldn't expect things like conversation trees and commands and attracting characters to create a settlement. If those things are your base level definition of the game having a legitimate NPC then its possible the game won't ever have legitimate NPCs by your standards. I don't know your standards so I don't really mean YOU, I mean somebody.

[Old Crow]

On 10/21/2022 at 3:36 AM, meganoth said:

 

"go down fairly easily" is relative to the abilities of a player. Vanilla is supposed to be the intro-game for new players and they will surely often get their bases destroyed by demos.

 

How do you know the behemoth would have more HP and armor than the demo? Do you know more than me (which is entirely possible, I could be unaware or forgetting ideas madmole was posting a long time ago) ? Or are you just projecting your own idea of what the behemoth would be into the discussion?

Case in point, the behemoths modders have re-enabled seem to me often to be at about the same level as the demo.

 

If you want to know the reason the behemoth was abandoned, just ask. Someone would have told you that it was because of clipping/movement problems TFP did not want to accept.

Well, to fix my earlier statement, Screamers go down fairly easily. A couple of bullets or a well-placed bap with a club will take down a screamer immediately. Demolishers.. not so much.

 

As for the Behemoth, I was incorrectly assuming it had much more HP than a Demolisher. If clipping was an issue, could they not have worked on the issues to fix it? Even if they had to set it aside for a while. It's not as if we don't already have clipping issues with existing zombies.

[meganoth]

3 hours ago, Old Crow said:

Well, to fix my earlier statement, Screamers go down fairly easily. A couple of bullets or a well-placed bap with a club will take down a screamer immediately. Demolishers.. not so much.

 

As for the Behemoth, I was incorrectly assuming it had much more HP than a Demolisher. If clipping was an issue, could they not have worked on the issues to fix it? Even if they had to set it aside for a while. It's not as if we don't already have clipping issues with existing zombies.

 

Possibly. But was the behemoth more important than the time to fix the issues? What new gameplay would it have brought that wasn't possible with a zombie with a smaller frame?

 

 

 

[Matt115]

10 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

Possibly. But was the behemoth more important than the time to fix the issues? What new gameplay would it have brought that wasn't possible with a zombie with a smaller frame?

 

 

 

I know that you ask him but... behemot could be  just bulletsponge with big anti block AOE. this would be mean that during Late stage players would have to create many wall because demolisher could make holes very fast and spend time on repairing them.  And why big would be better that for example demolisher - well it would be just lord of the rings troll while demolisher is just .... zombie with C4 so don't looks too much powerful. Not only gameplay is important but design too - kill just guy with c4 - Ok i'm going to sleep. Kill big mountain of muscles and skin armor? that's something

Edited October 25, 2022 by Matt115 (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

I know that you ask him but... behemot could be  just bulletsponge with big anti block AOE. this would be mean that during Late stage players would have to create many wall because demolisher could make holes very fast and spend time on repairing them.  And why big would be better that for example demolisher - well it would be just lord of the rings troll while demolisher is just .... zombie with C4 so don't looks too much powerful. Not only gameplay is important but design too - kill just guy with c4 - Ok i'm going to sleep. Kill big mountain of muscles and skin armor? that's something

From what I remember, the issue with the Behemot wasn't clipping, it was path finding.

It's already very complicated to do the path finding for two-blocks-high entities, it would have been a nightmare for an entity that is probably 2x2x3 blocks!

[Roland]

The behemoth was as tall as a two story building. So more like 2x4x8 and it was the pathing issue and the final decision that such a creature didn't really fit the theme. Its arm was the size of a regular entity.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)

[Matt115]

4 hours ago, Roland said:

 final decision that such a creature didn't really fit the theme. 

While i agree about path finding that...  their artistic vision is so  inconsisten. So screamer should using something like old model not have teeth like shark or spider zombie should be just normal zombie not human spider hybride like KF

[Roland]

27 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

While i agree about path finding that...  their artistic vision is so  inconsisten. So screamer should using something like old model not have teeth like shark or spider zombie should be just normal zombie not human spider hybride like KF

 

Those models could all be mutations and experiments performed on zombies that went wrong. The behemoth is a two-story tall humanoid that looked like an alien and nothing like a zombie or even a mutated zombie. Maybe if they decided that the zombie virus was aliens and the behemoth was one of those alien bosses it would have fit but saying that the behemoth was on the same level as a zombie having sharkish teeth or another zombie having mandibles is really pushing it. 

 

I agree that there are basic zombies and some mutated zombies that were obviously altered artificially in a lab rather than through random mutations of the virus in nature. But the behemoth was on another level. At least Gracie who is giant still looks like a boar and is just big.

 

I wasn't even bothered or triggered by the behemoth but even I with my much higher threshold of genre angst than you was able to recognize that it had absolutely nothing in common with anything else in the game while the other mutants still do have some commonalities.

 

Edited October 25, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)

[Matt115]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

 

Those models could all be mutations and experiments performed on zombies that went wrong. The behemoth is a two-story tall humanoid that looked like an alien and nothing like a zombie or even a mutated zombie. Maybe if they decided that the zombie virus was aliens and the behemoth was one of those alien bosses it would have fit but saying that the behemoth was on the same level as a zombie having sharkish teeth or another zombie having mandibles is really pushing it. 

 

I agree that there are basic zombies and some mutated zombies that were obviously altered artificially in a lab rather than through random mutations of the virus in nature. But the behemoth was on another level. At least Gracie who is giant still looks like a boar and is just big.

 

I wasn't even bothered or triggered by the behemoth but even I with my much higher threshold of genre angst than you was able to recognize that it had absolutely nothing in common with anything else in the game while the other mutants still do have some commonalities.

 

This one looks almost like:

 

This is Ogroman ( i know name is a little bit silly but  it have sense)

The Ogroman was a series of B.O.W derivated from the C-Virus. The series name stems from ogroman, a Serbian word synonymous with "enormous" and "gigantic".

 

so: This mutant have a lot of military props.

I would understand why doctors created Behemot. Perfect biological weapon of city fights - much better that tanks. But screamer? Honestly... it's looks like lab mutant. But such type of zombie would be pretty useless. Spider zombie - maybe as side effect of super soldier project. But now there is problem with feral wight- it's powerful but looks weaker that biker - older model as mutant had much more sense or if his pants was miltary but this model looks just random zombie who is just op without reasons. Infected Police officer and mutaded zombie looks like radiactivity victims totaly fine no problem. While crawler zombie looks comedic  here. So we have lab mutant, radioactivity , burned and halved. But normal zombie would die if you shot off his legs. Crawler zombie would suit to this theme if zombie were "head shot only" like in the walking dead.

 

I understand that 7dtd is TFP's first game and they focused on gameplay but they have to just create one consistent vision for sequel/spin off because it's too late for such changes. Fortunatly it's still much better that "night of the dead" ( this game looks bad ) but still - there is a lot to do. I hope that they will hire someone who have knowledge about world-bulding like Chet Faliszek

 

 

Edited October 25, 2022 by Matt115 (see edit history)

[Old Crow]

On 10/24/2022 at 7:58 PM, meganoth said:

 

Possibly. But was the behemoth more important than the time to fix the issues? What new gameplay would it have brought that wasn't possible with a zombie with a smaller frame?

 

 

 

We'll never know - TFP are slow to fix issues and instead spend time making constant changes or redoing existing systems. Wasn't the stated goal last year to go gold in 2022? I'm sorry, but they're not even close. I'll be surprised if the game goes gold by 2025 at this rate.

[meganoth]

7 hours ago, Old Crow said:

We'll never know - TFP are slow to fix issues and instead spend time making constant changes or redoing existing systems. Wasn't the stated goal last year to go gold in 2022? I'm sorry, but they're not even close. I'll be surprised if the game goes gold by 2025 at this rate.

 

Stated goal by whom? I never heard TFP state any form of date or year for the release of their game. They don't even say when alphas get out and they haven't even fixed the number of alphas they will do before release.

 

Ah, and about the complaint about them making constant changes and redoing existing systems, I disagree. Some of the changes are replacing prototype subsystems that were put into the game because an EA game needs to work and be fun from the start. Many further changes they do seem logical to me as they change subsystems that were not working well. Sometimes the rework didn't work either so it needed a second rework. It is called experimenting and improving and is done everywhere, only you can't see it with most games.

 

If you want you can name a redone feature and I can probably tell you the reasons why it was redesigned. 

 

Most players have unrealistic expectations about game development. They assume that all games can be planned on a white board. And they can very well if their innovation level is nearly 0 or the developer don't want to deliver high quality. If not it is very much random whether the parts someone wants to include form a well-rounded package.

 

Many players also assume that any feature can be done in a week. If they see a feature done fast in some other game (or a mod) they assume it can be done fast in any other game. They also assume that every developer is the same, if one doesn't experiment the other doesn't need to either. They assume that simply hiring 50 developers to a team of 50 doubles development speed, and that immediately.

 

If the game goes gold in 2025 that means 3 more alphas where I get a new game, not brand new but with enough changes that I can try out new things. For me each alpha is a welcome present.

 

 

 

 

 

[Old Crow]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

 

Stated goal by whom? I never heard TFP state any form of date or year for the release of their game. They don't even say when alphas get out and they haven't even fixed the number of alphas they will do before release.

 

Ah, and about the complaint about them making constant changes and redoing existing systems, I disagree. Some of the changes are replacing prototype subsystems that were put into the game because an EA game needs to work and be fun from the start. Many further changes they do seem logical to me as they change subsystems that were not working well. Sometimes the rework didn't work either so it needed a second rework. It is called experimenting and improving and is done everywhere, only you can't see it with most games.

 

If you want you can name a redone feature and I can probably tell you the reasons why it was redesigned. 

 

Most players have unrealistic expectations about game development. They assume that all games can be planned on a white board. And they can very well if their innovation level is nearly 0 or the developer don't want to deliver high quality. If not it is very much random whether the parts someone wants to include form a well-rounded package.

 

Many players also assume that any feature can be done in a week. If they see a feature done fast in some other game (or a mod) they assume it can be done fast in any other game. They also assume that every developer is the same, if one doesn't experiment the other doesn't need to either. They assume that simply hiring 50 developers to a team of 50 doubles development speed, and that immediately.

 

If the game goes gold in 2025 that means 3 more alphas where I get a new game, not brand new but with enough changes that I can try out new things. For me each alpha is a welcome present.

 

 

 

 

 

Stated BY THE FUN PIMPS. It was in last year's streams from them prior to A20 coming out. Here's a clip, it's shown multiple times in this video by Saven's World.:

 

 

[meganoth]

48 minutes ago, Old Crow said:

Stated BY THE FUN PIMPS. It was in last year's streams from them prior to A20 coming out. Here's a clip, it's shown multiple times in this video by Saven's World.:

 

 

 

Ok, I will not waste 15 minutes of my life to search for something in a video. So I'll accept that probably Madmole mentioned something. And I think I remember now some time ago here in the forum someone said Madmole mentioned a time frame and we made jokes here about it being a big mistake. Anyone remember? It could be about this.

 

[Roland]

10 hours ago, Old Crow said:

We'll never know - TFP are slow to fix issues and instead spend time making constant changes or redoing existing systems. Wasn't the stated goal last year to go gold in 2022? I'm sorry, but they're not even close. I'll be surprised if the game goes gold by 2025 at this rate.

 

So what? As long as they are funded enough to do so there is nothing wrong with continued development. They have been saying that they'd like to go gold "next year if possible" for the last few years and not just last year for this year.  They could keep their goal and rush out the rest of what they want to add. Why would anyone want them to rush out the rest of the features just for the sake of hitting a sooner date?

[Old Crow]

40 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

Ok, I will not waste 15 minutes of my life to search for something in a video. So I'll accept that probably Madmole mentioned something. And I think I remember now some time ago here in the forum someone said Madmole mentioned a time frame and we made jokes here about it being a big mistake. Anyone remember? It could be about this.

 

Search for what? The link goes directly to a specific timestamp.

[Syphon583]

1 hour ago, Old Crow said:

Stated BY THE FUN PIMPS. It was in last year's streams from them prior to A20 coming out. Here's a clip, it's shown multiple times in this video by Saven's World.:

 

 

Wow. What a way for the producer of this video to take something completely out of context and use as a way to claim TFP are not following their plans. I'd like to hear that segment in its entirety to see what he was talking about. Honestly, to me it looked like he was reading a comment from the chat and not stating with certainty that they were planning to go gold in that time frame. I could be wrong, but it's clear that not only does the video creator have poor expectations of how game development works, but they repeatedly use the same short, out-of-context clip to make a poor argument.

 

I also love his claim that the upcoming changes are being met with "massive concern". I'd hardly call the few discussions on this forum the equivalent of massive concern. Seems to me the majority of the people on here are looking forward to testing out these changes and giving their honest feedback.

[meganoth]

48 minutes ago, Old Crow said:

Search for what? The link goes directly to a specific timestamp.

Ah, okay, now I've seen it.

[Roland]

I feel like typing something that is sure to appear on a future episode of Saven's World...

 

1 hour ago, Syphon583 said:

I also love his claim that the upcoming changes are being met with "massive concern".

 

The guy has to frame everything in absolutes in order to deliver on the shock value of his click baity titles. Its all about likes and subscribes. Saven has no inside information and is simply choosing to use the worst case scenario and doom and gloom philosophy in order to get views. Later he will either claim that he was always right (If bandits do end up getting delayed) or he will claim that the pressure he and the community brought to the concern successfully pushed them into doing the right thing (If bandits make it into A21). Either way he makes himself the hero of his own world....uh....Saven's World.

Edited October 27, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)

[Old Crow]

7 hours ago, Roland said:

I feel like typing something that is sure to appear on a future episode of Saven's World...

 

 

The guy has to frame everything in absolutes in order to deliver on the shock value of his click baity titles. Its all about likes and subscribes. Saven has no inside information and is simply choosing to use the worst case scenario and doom and gloom philosophy in order to get views. Later he will either claim that he was always right (If bandits do end up getting delayed) or he will claim that the pressure he and the community brought to the concern successfully pushed them into doing the right thing (If bandits make it into A21). Either way he makes himself the hero of his own world....uh....Saven's World.

Saven uses what information is given, including your dismissive and condescending attitude towards players who disagree with the Fun Pimps.

8 hours ago, Syphon583 said:

Wow. What a way for the producer of this video to take something completely out of context and use as a way to claim TFP are not following their plans. I'd like to hear that segment in its entirety to see what he was talking about. Honestly, to me it looked like he was reading a comment from the chat and not stating with certainty that they were planning to go gold in that time frame. I could be wrong, but it's clear that not only does the video creator have poor expectations of how game development works, but they repeatedly use the same short, out-of-context clip to make a poor argument.

 

I also love his claim that the upcoming changes are being met with "massive concern". I'd hardly call the few discussions on this forum the equivalent of massive concern. Seems to me the majority of the people on here are looking forward to testing out these changes and giving their honest feedback.

You say that like it's only people on the forums here that are talking.

[Roland]

1 hour ago, Old Crow said:

Saven uses what information is given, including your dismissive and condescending attitude towards players who disagree with the Fun Pimps.

Heheh..I’m pretty sure he picks and chooses what information fits his narrative because that is exactly what he did. He definitely didn’t use the entirety of the information I give.  He can’t since the information itself would debunk all of his speculations and also show that I’m not dismissive and condescending to people who simply disagree with the Fun Pimps. What a gross over-simplification.   I actually spend a lot of time protecting the ability of people to disagree with the Fun Pimps. 
 

But obviously Saven can only work with what he’s given…lmao. 
 

Look, if you’re a fan of the guy and love his episodes then enjoy yourself. He’s doing entertainment for views and if it feels good to do some TFP bashing and feel super worried about the direction of the game together in his chat then I’m glad you have a place to do that. We don’t allow TFP bashing here, that’s true. TFP disagreeing is okay but not bashing and some people have a tough time figuring out the difference.
 

They are probably the type of “friends” others should try and avoid…😂

 

Parce THAT @Saven…
 

 

 

[Ramethzer0]

1 hour ago, Old Crow said:

Saven uses what information is given, including your dismissive and condescending attitude towards players who disagree with the Fun Pimps.

 

Everyone uses what information they are given.  Some people are not given all the information, and are generally taken as misconstrued when their opinions are up against people who have all the inside information.   That doesn't make them condescending.  That means they are trying to get through to you, and you're not listening.  Let that stew under your helmet for a wee bit.   Taking a single sound bit, removing the context, and projecting your own hot take on that is literally the textbook definition of lazy research.

Edited October 28, 2022 by Ramethzer0 (see edit history)

[Laz Man]

58 minutes ago, Roland said:

Heheh..I’m pretty sure he picks and chooses what information fits his narrative because that is exactly what he did. He definitely didn’t use the entirety of the information I give.  He can’t since the information itself would debunk all of his speculations and also show that I’m not dismissive and condescending to people who simply disagree with the Fun Pimps. What a gross over-simplification.   I actually spend a lot of time protecting the ability of people to disagree with the Fun Pimps. 
 

But obviously Saven can only work with what he’s given…lmao. 
 

Look, if you’re a fan of the guy and love his episodes then enjoy yourself. He’s doing entertainment for views and if it feels good to do some TFP bashing and feel super worried about the direction of the game together in his chat then I’m glad you have a place to do that. We don’t allow TFP bashing here, that’s true. TFP disagreeing is okay but not bashing and some people have a tough time figuring out the difference.
 

They are probably the type of “friends” others should try and avoid…😂

 

Parce THAT @Saven…
 

 

 

 

I wouldn't even bother Roland.  I use to watch his channel when he did a fun POI tournament collaboration with other content creators, but stopped when he started posting tabloid style misleading videos.

 

Looking at his channel history, those type of videos is what nets him the most views.  Its not a surprise to see him create more of the same.

Edited October 28, 2022 by Laz Man (see edit history)