About the upcoming changes for water. And farming

[Gamerdude535]

I like the new dew collector and that direct source drinking is coming back. And am also cool with the cooking pot being required for boiling water again.

 

But why get rid of empty glass jars??? Glass jars don’t just break from drinking from them :/.

 

that part is really dumb please reconsider

 

Reducing water loot to just murky water is fine but making empty glass jars non-existent makes no damn sense whatsoever.

 

not everything has to be a pain in the ass to get.

 

Oh and you should tone down the amount of fruits and veggies needed to craft seeds. Farming should absolutely be efficient once you get it going.

Edited September 27, 2022 by Gamerdude535
Additions (see edit history)

[meganoth]

Currently you have a choice with farming:

A) Put one point into Living of the Land and your farm is self-sustaining and efficient and gives you 1.5 produce per plant on average after making enough seeds for the next harvest. Put 2 or 3 points into farming and it gets even easier.

 

B) Don't put any point into LotL. Then farm plots are only useful for growing seeds you happen to find. Seed production from produce makes no sense.

 

What exactly do you find wrong with this scheme? Is it that you need to many farm plots at LotL 1? Or is it that you can't really farm without a perk point invested ?

 

About the glass jars. What is so important about them? They already strangely vanish if you use the water in any recipes. And if it is that dumb, why didn't you protest about gas, oil and acid having no containers either? Let me guess: You didn't even notice there are no empty gas cans, right? 😉 Because it simply works without containers.

 

Edited September 27, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[BFT2020]

I modded out empty glass jars in my game and didn't notice anything harder with them missing.  Not having the ability to drink from standing water and not being able to make a dew collector yet, now that made the game a bit harder.  I did find myself buying glue and tape from the traders which I never did before.

[Gamerdude535]

@meganoth

 

Thing is even with the farming perks you it might just barely get efficient assuming you get lucky with RNG

A Good amount of the time you’re not gonna be getting enough seeds back and the farming perks do nothing for your chance of seeds.

Edited September 27, 2022 by Gamerdude535 (see edit history)

[Adam the Waster]

1 hour ago, BFT2020 said:

I modded out empty glass jars in my game and didn't notice anything harder with them missing.  Not having the ability to drink from standing water and not being able to make a dew collector yet, now that made the game a bit harder.  I did find myself buying glue and tape from the traders which I never did before.

some people don't like to rely on traders for everything. 

i don't mind traders but its choice.. its a sandbox game after all

3 hours ago, meganoth said:

Currently you have a choice with farming:

A) Put one point into Living of the Land and your farm is self-sustaining and efficient and gives you 1.5 produce per plant on average after making enough seeds for the next harvest. Put 2 or 3 points into farming and it gets even easier.

 

B) Don't put any point into LotL. Then farm plots are only useful for growing seeds you happen to find. Seed production from produce makes no sense.

 

What exactly do you find wrong with this scheme? Is it that you need to many farm plots at LotL 1? Or is it that you can't really farm without a perk point invested ?

 

About the glass jars. What is so important about them? They already strangely vanish if you use the water in any recipes. And if it is that dumb, why didn't you protest about gas, oil and acid having no containers either? Let me guess: You didn't even notice there are no empty gas cans, right? 😉 Because it simply works without containers.

 

people did complain about jars not coming back from cooking. 

Hastage bring back canned water. 

Edited September 27, 2022 by Adam the Waster (see edit history)

[meganoth]

27 minutes ago, Gamerdude535 said:

@meganoth

 

Thing is even with the farming perks you it might just barely get efficient assuming you get lucky with RNG

A Good amount of the time you’re not gonna be getting enough seeds back and the farming perks do nothing for your chance of seeds.

 

Ok. What were your results when you tried it out? How big was your farm for how many people? What did you do exactly when you had a bad harvest?

 

I have used LotL 1 for a while now (I even used LotL 1 once when I perked into FOR just to try it out) and found it quite effective in practice. I used about 35 farm plots to feed 4 people in a MP szenario. We always had enough food, too much even at the end. And no serious production line (like potatos or corn) ever shrank perceptively through long strings of improbably bad luck.

 

I didn't need any luck, just normal average rolls over the long time of playing. A bad harvest was usually followed by a normal or good one giving me enough produce over the long run. So this is my practical experience. The number of produce you get back at LotL 1 is usually enough to produce enough seeds AND get something out of it.

 

 

[Gamerdude535]

@meganoth

 

Currently playing solo on my cousin’s steam account sometimes when I’d be hanging out with him and his wife or when I baby sit their pets while they went on vacations. Which I happened to be there doing recently

 

But would like to get the game on my account sometime.
 

More often than not I was getting less seeds than I put in. That 50% chance gets real shaky and again the farming perks don’t do anything for it. When being able go get a 75% chance of a seed at the least would be more reasonable.
 

The production with maxed farming perk is 7 per plant when it takes 5 just to make one seed and that’s just not how it works when logically you should be able to extract seeds or whatever part grows more of a fruit or veggie from even just having one unless it’s something genetically modified to be seedless.

Edited September 27, 2022 by Gamerdude535 (see edit history)

[meganoth]

2 hours ago, Gamerdude535 said:

@meganoth

 

Currently playing solo on my cousin’s steam account sometimes when I’d be hanging out with him and his wife or when I baby sit their pets while they went on vacations. Which I happened to be there doing recently

 

But would like to get the game on my account sometime.
 

More often than not I was getting less seeds than I put in. That 50% chance gets real shaky and again the farming perks don’t do anything for it. When being able go get a 75% chance of a seed at the least would be more reasonable.
 

The production with maxed farming perk is 7 per plant when it takes 5 just to make one seed and that’s just not how it works when logically you should be able to extract seeds or whatever part grows more of a fruit or veggie from even just having one unless it’s something genetically modified to be seedless.

 

This is a game and not a simulation. Show the developers that it doesn't work if you want the game to change. Don't tell them that reality works differently, they know this already, for many many things in the game.

 

With maxed farming perk food production is absolutely trivial, you can't even fail theoretically! Even if you constantly rolled no seed for harvest after harvest you still would constantly gain food. If you want to argue with reality: There you can have a total crop failure for multiple years no matter the size of your field, that is absolutely impossible in the game at LotL 3. But thats ok, it is a game, farming has just to work and look somewhat similar to real farming if you don't look closely. Like anything else in the game.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 27, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Maharin]

5 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

I modded out empty glass jars in my game and didn't notice anything harder with them missing.  Not having the ability to drink from standing water and not being able to make a dew collector yet, now that made the game a bit harder.  I did find myself buying glue and tape from the traders which I never did before.

 

If you want a harder game, play without traders. 

[BFT2020]

17 hours ago, Maharin said:

 

If you want a harder game, play without traders. 

 

The game can be harder and still have traders, you just have to nerf them really.  I did that with my mod and I found the game more difficult to play - but I increase the cost of items, removed any gear quality 5 or less from their stock, and removed quest item rewards.  So now you only get dukes from them which they will gladly take in exchange for an expensive Q6 pistol that they just happen to have in stock  🙂

 

You can also make other changes that impact the game and having traders still around is critical.  Take for example - removing recipes unlocks from perks while at the same time lowering the chance of finding any gear Q3 or higher in loot.  Doing that, I found I had to find the recipes while out looting or get lucky to find it at a trader if I wanted to have a Q3 or higher pistol early game.  Throw in removing the ability of repairing gear and you find yourself using various pistols until they break and you find the recipe to start crafting ones that start at full durability.

 

I remember one playthrough where I found a half broken Q6 iron pickaxe.  That I saved until I was actually needed to mine a bunch of materials and just used it for that purpose until it broke.

[RipClaw]

23 hours ago, meganoth said:

I have used LotL 1 for a while now (I even used LotL 1 once when I perked into FOR just to try it out) and found it quite effective in practice. I used about 35 farm plots to feed 4 people in a MP szenario.

With how many seeds did you start ?

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, RipClaw said:

With how many seeds did you start ?

 

There is no advantage in saving up seeds, it even makes the process slower to get to target size of the farm. If you want I can deliver a mathematical proof.

 

Just plant what you have and save up and use any produce you get out of planting for seed production until you have the wanted number of seeds in your farm.

 

So I started always with 1 seed. But saved any produce after harvest for new seeds or converted to seeds if I had produce left over from the previous harvest. And replanted any seeds I got from harvesting immediately.

 

Edited September 28, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

28 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

There is no advantage in saving up seeds, it even makes the process slower to get to target size of the farm. If you want I can deliver a mathematical proof.

 

Just plant what you have and save up and use any produce you get out of planting for seed production until you have the wanted number of seeds in your farm.

 

So I started always with 1 seed. But saved any produce after harvest for new seeds or converted to seeds if I had produce left over from the previous harvest. And replanted any seeds I got from harvesting immediately.

 

If a player plants only one seed and does not get a seed back at the first harvest, it feels to him that farming is useless as long as they are not at level 3 and get at least 6 plants back. I have heard this statement many times. A mathematical proof that says the opposite won't help.

 

Therefore, I usually advise players to collect several seeds before they harvest the first time. Then the disappointment of a bad harvest is not quite as big.
 

 

[Roland]

Started from one seed. Check

Only used LotL 1. Check

Built up a successful farm. Check

Floats in water and weighs the same as a duck. Check

 

Mega's a witch!

[meganoth]

33 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

If a player plants only one seed and does not get a seed back at the first harvest, it feels to him that farming is useless as long as they are not at level 3 and get at least 6 plants back. I have heard this statement many times. A mathematical proof that says the opposite won't help.

 

Therefore, I usually advise players to collect several seeds before they harvest the first time. Then the disappointment of a bad harvest is not quite as big.
 

 

 

That is very good advice. It doesn't mean someone who knows better needs to follow it.

[Chereon]

On 9/27/2022 at 10:48 AM, meganoth said:

Currently you have a choice with farming:

A) Put one point into Living of the Land and your farm is self-sustaining and efficient and gives you 1.5 produce per plant on average after making enough seeds for the next harvest. Put 2 or 3 points into farming and it gets even easier.

 

B) Don't put any point into LotL. Then farm plots are only useful for growing seeds you happen to find. Seed production from produce makes no sense.

 

What exactly do you find wrong with this scheme? Is it that you need to many farm plots at LotL 1? Or is it that you can't really farm without a perk point invested ?

 

About the glass jars. What is so important about them? They already strangely vanish if you use the water in any recipes. And if it is that dumb, why didn't you protest about gas, oil and acid having no containers either? Let me guess: You didn't even notice there are no empty gas cans, right? 😉 Because it simply works without containers.

 

So...your solution is to remove something for...uniformity? General Rule of Thumb: Don't fix what isn't broken. But, hey. At least, the so-called "Fun" Pimps have modders to fix their mistakes. By the way, mocking the people who PLAY your game...not a recipe for success. Just ask the Woke fools who keep tanking their cash cows in their arrogance.

[theFlu]

32 minutes ago, Chereon said:

General Rule of Thumb: Don't fix what isn't broken.

It was broken; glass jars fillable from natural water sources made one jar fill for all your hydration needs. Without them, TFP can now make you work for it.

[Roland]

2 hours ago, Chereon said:

So...your solution is to remove something for...uniformity?

Consistency and uniformity of rules within a game are actually a worthy cause for making changes. I’m only one person but can report from personal experience that after an initial shock that jars were gone and that I needed to adjust my water gathering strategy, I haven’t missed them at all in exactly the same way I don’t miss gas cans, stew bowls, oil bottles, and acid jugs. In my opinion, thirst management is much more interesting now—not necessarily harder but more interesting and because of that more fun. 
 

Your mileage may vary but as far as I can tell the removal of jars has been net positive. It has given murky water an actual presence in the game beyond being a glue component. Now it is part of the hydration game because it isn’t such a trivial hydration source to skip over.  I’ve hD to deal with dysentery more in the past few months than I have in years. The dysentery icon was one of the originals in the game and at one time it was the only critical injury there was and yet because of jars it never showed up ever in any play through. When would I ever have had to drink murky water pre A21?  I’d like to see more critical injuries and not less but jars had basically removed dysentery from the game. 

[Melange]

14 hours ago, Roland said:

Started from one seed. Check

Only used LotL 1. Check

Built up a successful farm. Check

Floats in water and weighs the same as a duck. Check

 

Mega's a witch!

She turned me into a noob once. I got better....

Edited September 29, 2022 by Melange (see edit history)

[meganoth]

5 hours ago, Chereon said:

So...your solution is to remove something for...uniformity? General Rule of Thumb: Don't fix what isn't broken. But, hey. At least, the so-called "Fun" Pimps have modders to fix their mistakes. By the way, mocking the people who PLAY your game...not a recipe for success. Just ask the Woke fools who keep tanking their cash cows in their arrogance.

 

I'm not employed by TFP, I don't speak for them, I am a just a random forum poster with a volunteer task on the side.

 

I asked him why he protests about glass jars but seems ok with no gas cans etc. That doesn't mean TFP did this for uniformity or did this **only** for uniformity and it also doesn't imply that I see it as a reason. I ask him why glass jars are special to him. Valid question and you are reading too much into my words.

 

Mocking him? Where do you get that I am mocking him? I actually never noticed the missing gas cans myself until I played the mod Undead Legacy where gas cans were added. A lot of other people on the forum seem to have missed this as well. My guess is absolutely reasonable and probable.

 

TFP have said quite often that they want mods to provide extended gameplay and alternatives to their way of setting up the game. If you are not happy about some vanilla features that is perfectly ok and you are supposed to use mods for this. Don't make the mistake of thinking your way of playing and your taste is the only relevant way of playing a game. There are lots of players who want more survival (I'm not one of them) or more general difficulty (I'm in this group) and both groups are served with this change.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 29, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

3 hours ago, Roland said:

It has given murky water an actual presence in the game beyond being a glue component.

I also used murky water to save space. The stack size of clean water in A20 is 10 and that of murky water is 125. I hope that in A21 the stack size of clean water will be adjusted so that you don't have a whole chest full of clean water when you want to stock it for making glue in large quantities.

[Roland]

2 hours ago, RipClaw said:

I also used murky water to save space. The stack size of clean water in A20 is 10 and that of murky water is 125. I hope that in A21 the stack size of clean water will be adjusted so that you don't have a whole chest full of clean water when you want to stock it for making glue in large quantities.

I suggested this very thing to the devs. Agreed that higher stack sizes of water make sense with jars gone and crafting needs changed. 

[Rotor]

Ya, should be able to carry atleast 24 .8L bottles in you backpack.

 

May have to drop a couple of  brick stacks though, I am not as strong as I used to be in my 20s :).

[canadianbluebeer]

I changed the stack sizes on a buncha stuff to make things more consitent.

water (boiled/purified) being one.

 

'course, made a typo, trying to set 7.62 bullits to 300, and had an extra zero. I decided to leave it in for giggless.

 

 

I make glue in batches of 250 so that I have lots of duct tape, thus repair kits.

 

Will have to see how the changes work out.  If I don't like'em, well, that's what xml editing is for.

(and I bet I'll still have to "fix" various stack sizes)

 

[Riamus]

At LotL 3, farming is very easy.  For just me, I have a total of 13 plants at a time and really only need maybe 6-7.  My normal production is 2 potato, 2 pumpkin, 2 blueberry, 3 mushroom, 4 corn.  I don't even use blueberries or pumpkins, but am stocking them up.  The rest has gotten me so much cooked food for myself that I've stopped normal farming and switched to flowers to build up a stock of mineral water.  Even getting no seeds back, I still have fruit after making new seeds.  At lower levels, that wouldn't always be the case, but you should still be doing okay farming.

 

Worst case, at lower levels you might need to buy a few fruit now and then to create more seeds.  I think that is reasonable if you aren't going to max out LotL.

Edited September 30, 2022 by Riamus (see edit history)