Are the Devs just dumb?

[pApA^LeGBa]

@Roland Not regarding gamedevelopment. There was one for A17 death penalty though.

 

And also about the size and timeline of the updates, wich is kind of game development related. Were the players voted for big updates with longer timespans inbetween. Wich was abandoned by TFP with A20 where we got updates until 8 months after release with just about 2-3 months inbetween.

 

There has been those two polls that were  importnant and both had a very low number of votes compared to the playerbase. Just an idea to promote any future poll that might happen.

Edited September 5, 2022 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[warmer]

On 9/3/2022 at 8:50 PM, Vansanity33 said:

Why do they continually change things the community doesn't want changed? Add stuff that no one cares about? Don't add stuff that is continually asked for. Thank God for the modding community bcuz the devs just don't get it. 

I'm going to guess you've never made a single passion project in your life, or you'd realize that some endeavors are about pleasing yourself first.

You know what happens when you listen to too many voices in the community and pick the middle ground?

Saint's Row 2022

That steaming pile of crap I uninstalled within 45min of launching it.

[unholyjoe]

18 minutes ago, warmer said:

I'm going to guess you've never made a single passion project in your life, or you'd realize that some endeavors are about pleasing yourself first.

You know what happens when you listen to too many voices in the community and pick the middle ground?

Saint's Row 2022

That steaming pile of crap I uninstalled within 45min of launching it.

haha.. i beat ya there... i uninstalled after 3 minutes. not my cup of tea (i prefer dr pepper)

 

[Guppycur]

I agree with the OP.  Thank God for the modding community that tfp has been instrumental in curating. 

 

I think it's pretty cool that they are making a game with their vision and taking the time to include the tools that allow modders to make it in their own.

[Laz Man]

2 hours ago, Guppycur said:

I agree with the OP.  Thank God for the modding community that tfp has been instrumental in curating. 

 

I think it's pretty cool that they are making a game with their vision and taking the time to include the tools that allow modders to make it in their own.

 

Pretty much this, except the negativity towards the devs on their vision.  I've seen modders and content creators both guilty of this despite the occasional appreciation that is mentioned...

[bdubyah]

28 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

 

Pretty much this, except the negativity towards the devs on their vision.  I've seen modders and content creators both guilty of this despite the occasional appreciation that is mentioned...

Well, just because they give us a way to change something doesn't mean we want them to give us a reason to change it. 😛

 

But seriously, while there are definitely some things I don't agree with(noob spawn points, smell going away, item degradation, etc) I don't spew needless hate at the devs for those changes. And most of that is fairly easily reversed with mods. Well, some of it. But that won't stop me from still mentioning some of these things whenever I get the chance in the hopes of somehow swaying their opinion on them. 😂

[Laz Man]

40 minutes ago, bdubyah said:

Well, just because they give us a way to change something doesn't mean we want them to give us a reason to change it. 😛

 

But seriously, while there are definitely some things I don't agree with(noob spawn points, smell going away, item degradation, etc) I don't spew needless hate at the devs for those changes. And most of that is fairly easily reversed with mods. Well, some of it. But that won't stop me from still mentioning some of these things whenever I get the chance in the hopes of somehow swaying their opinion on them. 😂

I don't mind disagreement with dev decisions and modders creating their own vision of the game.  It's those who spew nonsense about them knowing better that creates this narrative that modders know best for all.  I'm not going to name drop, but see it all the time.

[Maharin]

5 hours ago, Guppycur said:

I agree with the OP.  Thank God for the modding community that tfp has been instrumental in curating. 

 

I think it's pretty cool that they are making a game with their vision and taking the time to include the tools that allow modders to make it in their own.

 

This is spot on.  This simple fact that TFP has made 7DTD so modable (and native on Linux) means TFP will already get my money for their next game.

[Matt115]

2 hours ago, bdubyah said:

Well, just because they give us a way to change something doesn't mean we want them to give us a reason to change it. 😛

 

But seriously, while there are definitely some things I don't agree with(noob spawn points, smell going away, item degradation, etc) I don't spew needless hate at the devs for those changes. And most of that is fairly easily reversed with mods. Well, some of it. But that won't stop me from still mentioning some of these things whenever I get the chance in the hopes of somehow swaying their opinion on them. 😂

Mods are not solution. Rly it's not solution.

I'm playing in HL2 mod called entropy zero 2. It's soo good mod rly this mod could offical valve game because is soo good and in this same time very close with orginal HL2 spirit. But.... it's not canon so yeah. This could not exisit and hl series situation would be totaly this same. 

"noob spawn points, smell going away, item degradation, etc" well if such thing would stay in 7dtd since early alphas.... this would be much diffrent looking game and had much diffrent comunity, diffrent mods etc. That's a big diffrence.

 

48 minutes ago, Maharin said:

 

This is spot on.  This simple fact that TFP has made 7DTD so modable (and native on Linux) means TFP will already get my money for their next game.

Honestly... i think if 7DTD wasn't modable it would be much better for 7dtd - why? because in this sitaution 7dtd had to had much more content and more dlc in the future. Now we know that's they want to make diffrent type of game. so 7dtd 2  will after.... 10- 15 years in best situation. So it's hard to not be pesemestic

[Maharin]

5 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

Honestly... i think if 7DTD wasn't modable it would be much better for 7dtd - why? because in this sitaution 7dtd had to had much more content and more dlc in the future. Now we know that's they want to make diffrent type of game. so 7dtd 2  will after.... 10- 15 years in best situation. So it's hard to not be pesemestic

 

There will literally be dozens of 7DTD2's created as mods over the next several years.   TFP does not need to make one nor do I expect they will unless they completely run out of ideas (unlikely).  I fully expect that some updates they will make to 7DTD post release will simply be things that make parts of it easier to mod.

[Rotor]

2 minutes ago, Maharin said:

 

There will literally be dozens of 7DTD2's created as mods over the next several years.   TFP does not need to make one nor do I expect they will unless they completely run out of ideas (unlikely).  I fully expect that some updates they will make to 7DTD post release will simply be things that make parts of it easier to mod.

 

Ya, I want to delete Z types without modding :).

[Matt115]

1 hour ago, Maharin said:

 

There will literally be dozens of 7DTD2's created as mods over the next several years.   TFP does not need to make one nor do I expect they will unless they completely run out of ideas (unlikely).  I fully expect that some updates they will make to 7DTD post release will simply be things that make parts of it easier to mod.

Honestly no chance maybe - 3-4 big mods and that's all - every overhoul mods is so similiar in 7dtd situation so if someone was interested ( and have skills) to created something diffrent... would do this. Yes they can do things to make easier to make mods but no chances that would change after released. it's not like sw bf or skyrim with tons of diffrent types of mods. No. 7dtd is playble long enough. If there would be some big modders groups like in HL2, skyrim or sw - it would have more big mods long time ago

[bdubyah]

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

Mods are not solution. Rly it's not solution.

I'm playing in HL2 mod called entropy zero 2. It's soo good mod rly this mod could offical valve game because is soo good and in this same time very close with orginal HL2 spirit. But.... it's not canon so yeah. This could not exisit and hl series situation would be totaly this same. 

"noob spawn points, smell going away, item degradation, etc" well if such thing would stay in 7dtd since early alphas.... this would be much diffrent looking game and had much diffrent comunity, diffrent mods etc. That's a big diffrence.

I'm...not even really sure what you were trying to say here.

[Matt115]

1 minute ago, bdubyah said:

I'm...not even really sure what you were trying to say here.

Okay i will try to explain. Older alpha were looking like typical hardcore game. If checks games from 2013-2015 you will see that... 7dtd was like hardcore MC. meal smell, food spoiling , low visibilty. and looking how another alpha looked it was like "easier 3D project zomboid in early stage". Now 7dtd is casual game becaus people wanted to make more things simpler or easier. If TFP decided stick to "hardcore" vision from this period - community of this game would be much smaller, probably diffrent mods would be created and totaly have diffrent opinion. But they decided guys who wanted to make this game easier - probably because more casual game = more players

[Maharin]

@Matt115,

 

A big part of the design of 7DTD is the ability to mod it.  To say you want changes that TFP will not make, without mods, is to say you do not want changes.  Mods ARE what make this game a better game, not a worse game.  Whatever game 7DTD ends up being some people will not like it.  That's okay because they also gave us the ability to change it.  Either get past your bias against mods and change or move on to another game.  Seriously.

[Matt115]

18 minutes ago, Maharin said:

@Matt115,

 

A big part of the design of 7DTD is the ability to mod it.  To say you want changes that TFP will not make, without mods, is to say you do not want changes.  Mods ARE what make this game a better game, not a worse game.  Whatever game 7DTD ends up being some people will not like it.  That's okay because they also gave us the ability to change it.  Either get past your bias against mods and change or move on to another game.  Seriously.

That's wasn't my point. My point was that game was hardcore and TFP decided to make it casual. And mods won't solve this problem. No matter how good mods now will be -  basic game is casual. And that's it. So mods don't change this game for better.  You can say that "maybe someone will do hardcore mod" well this can be true but mean : it's need a years + we could get good hardcore game years ago but devs decided to listen who complain that is too easy - if this game was so casual - i woudn't complain. But it' was change from hardcore too casual. So mods are not argument here. 

Big part of design? yes. But you can made a hardcore game and mods can be still big part of design. But then mods will be probably  even more hardcore that basic game

 

Edited September 6, 2022 by Matt115 (see edit history)

[Mister Forgash]

I have to disagree, Matt. Strictly business TFP, as a company is incentivized to sell as many copies as possible. I don't have any issues with them doing what they can to make sales..  and I think it's really a wonderfully great thing that they've made 7D2D as easily modable as it is.

 

To make a comparison. I enjoyed Skyrim, but it doesn't offer everything I wanted in a game - in fact, it lacked a lot. Thanks to the large modding community - Which is also thanks in part to selling many copies, I was able to get the gaming experience I wanted from it. [With like 150+mods in at my last playthrough] I got harder survial aspects, harsher weather, death penalties, diseases, ect. I know all these were added because of the fans, and I'm eternally grateful for those that put hundreds of hours of their life into improving the game.. but I also felt my Bethesda deserved some of that credit for having their game designed in a way people could make it happen. [Until that last DLC which was basically - Pay us for all this fan made content. That was some bull@%$#.]

[Maharin]

The game is not casual but you could claim the default settings are casual.  Just because someone's skill set allows them to excel while difficulty settings are maxed doesn't mean the game with those settings deserves a casual rating.  The number of people playing at max difficulty versus ones playing with more moderate settings is a pretty small ratio.  It's that way in nearly every game that doesn't have PvP as part of its core structure.

[bdubyah]

45 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

And mods won't solve this problem. No matter how good mods now will be -  basic game is casual. And that's it. So mods don't change this game for better.

Yeahhh, gonna have to strongly disagree with that one, man. Several mods make the game more challenging, and add some of the old features like smell and degradation for example.

 

You always mention playing mods for other games, but when it comes to 7 Days you keep repeating that mods aren't a solution. Just sounds like someone in denial. The devs more than likely won't be adding a lot of this stuff back, but plenty of modders have.

[Roland]

11 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

There was one for A17 death penalty though.

 

That was not an official poll put out by TFP as far as I know. Rick has been very clear with us moderators that if we make polls we make it clear that they are not official TFP polls and in general discourages us as moderators from making polls at all just in case someone thinks it is official because we made it. Polls created by other users are, of course, not official. Rick is very wary about doing things that force their hands and make them beholden to a promise that may go against what they really want to do. His perspective is that an official poll comes with a promise that the devs will honor whatever the outcome is and TFP is only ever willing to do what they feel is best for their game. Hence, Rick avoids any situation where control of development is taken out of their hands.

 

As for the mythical development time poll, I remember when they wanted to do Fun Pimp Fridays and have an update every Friday and as we all know that turned out to be impossible. There was a lot of talk about shorter vs longer development cycles but I don't recall the actual poll or voting in it myself and I was very active back then even though I was not yet a moderator. Poll or not, I think we all know that TFP need long development cycles so its good the "vote" is perceived to have gone that way. The problem though is that people then are mad that they weren't in on that vote and that if the poll had been better advertised maybe it would have gone the other way and we would magically be getting monthly updates. That is just ridiculous. If the poll had gone the other way I'm sure TFP would have tried their best and then would have ended up apologizing and declaring that short dev cycles just don't work for them and we would be back to how it has been regardless. I just hope that everyone realizes that TFP takes 10 - 16 months per development cycle because that's what THEY need to do rather than because a few people got in on a poll and skewed it the wrong way and now TFP must do it that way because that's the way the vote went. Poppycock!

Edited September 6, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)

[bdubyah]

2 hours ago, Roland said:

As for the mythical development time poll, I remember when they wanted to do Fun Pimp Fridays and have an update every Friday and as we all know that turned out to be impossible.

As someone who just got into Star Citizen not long ago, and have been catching up on its dev history as well as following the current progress I would love if TFP followed CIG's model of weekly/monthly updates. SC shares some similarities with 7 Days when it comes to its history, with both being in dev for quite a while now, as well as some shifts in scope/scale. 7 Days has the occasional people like the OP here, while SC still has people claiming it is a scam.

 

But CIG has a weekly schedule where they release some narrative info, teasers, an Inside Star Citizen which is a video showing off upcoming content(usually with a dev commenting along the way), and then Star Citizen Live where devs show off their tools and how their workflow operates. Now, obviously that weekly schedule wouldn't really work for TFP as they have nowhere near the amount of employees that CIG has, so there wouldn't be enough meaningful progress made weekly to warrant video and such. But the idea would still be interesting to see. It could be similar to the dev streams they do when a new alpha is imminent, but with more devs and a bit more informative. And obviously a lot more often. Maybe once a month? Could be cool.

[pApA^LeGBa]

Mythical development time poll? Are you serious now? That was a thing. Still in the old forum though.

[Rotor]

6 hours ago, bdubyah said:

As someone who just got into Star Citizen not long ago, and have been catching up on its dev history as well as following the current progress 

 

Welcome fellow space farer.

[meganoth]

13 hours ago, Matt115 said:

Mods are not solution. Rly it's not solution.

I'm playing in HL2 mod called entropy zero 2. It's soo good mod rly this mod could offical valve game because is soo good and in this same time very close with orginal HL2 spirit. But.... it's not canon so yeah. This could not exisit and hl series situation would be totaly this same. 

"noob spawn points, smell going away, item degradation, etc" well if such thing would stay in 7dtd since early alphas.... this would be much diffrent looking game and had much diffrent comunity, diffrent mods etc. That's a big diffrence.

 

Honestly... i think if 7DTD wasn't modable it would be much better for 7dtd - why? because in this sitaution 7dtd had to had much more content and more dlc in the future. Now we know that's they want to make diffrent type of game. so 7dtd 2  will after.... 10- 15 years in best situation. So it's hard to not be pesemestic

 

What nonsense.

 

https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Official_Add-ons_(Skyrim)

 

Did the avaliabilty of mods prevent Bethesda from producing addons? No.

 

And since one of your other complaints is about graphics and style: Are there mods that improve the visuals of Bethesda games or add stuff in the same style? Yes.

 

 

And since one of your other complaints is about hardcore: Are there mods that make 7D2D massively more difficult? Yes. 

 

 

And another point: 7D2D 2 won't need 10 years of development. They will not start from zero, they will most likely start with 7D2D and just add features they didn't have time for to include in 7D2D.

 

 

Edited September 6, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Matt115]

10 hours ago, Mister Forgash said:

I have to disagree, Matt. Strictly business TFP, as a company is incentivized to sell as many copies as possible. I don't have any issues with them doing what they can to make sales..  and I think it's really a wonderfully great thing that they've made 7D2D as easily modable as it is.

 

To make a comparison. I enjoyed Skyrim, but it doesn't offer everything I wanted in a game - in fact, it lacked a lot. Thanks to the large modding community - Which is also thanks in part to selling many copies, I was able to get the gaming experience I wanted from it. [With like 150+mods in at my last playthrough] I got harder survial aspects, harsher weather, death penalties, diseases, ect. I know all these were added because of the fans, and I'm eternally grateful for those that put hundreds of hours of their life into improving the game.. but I also felt my Bethesda deserved some of that credit for having their game designed in a way people could make it happen. [Until that last DLC which was basically - Pay us for all this fan made content. That was some bull@%$#.]

Idk if last dlc was Dragonborn or dragon heart but Dragonborn was pretty cool dlc.  Skyrim mods are cool but... that's a problem in this situation. Because because of that skyrim is still selling. Usually this would be great but... Because of that still we don't have TES 6. So that's problem - skyrim was popular because of mods while before skyrim was popular because have good gameplay and expedend lore. Now.... since 2012 nothing new about lore because devs didn't had reason to make new TES fast. So honestly - mods killed TES lore community. 

 

10 hours ago, Maharin said:

The game is not casual but you could claim the default settings are casual.  Just because someone's skill set allows them to excel while difficulty settings are maxed doesn't mean the game with those settings deserves a casual rating.  The number of people playing at max difficulty versus ones playing with more moderate settings is a pretty small ratio.  It's that way in nearly every game that doesn't have PvP as part of its core structure.

 

dificulty =/= hardcore. COD have one bullet difficulty and it not hardcore game because is simple. Arma 3 is hardcore game because have tons of tons diffrent mechanics, types of weapons, types of ammo, a lot of diffrent quipment, types of vehicles and more and more and more. 

hardcore mean - a lot of very complexed and complicated mechanics

 

10 hours ago, bdubyah said:

Yeahhh, gonna have to strongly disagree with that one, man. Several mods make the game more challenging, and add some of the old features like smell and degradation for example.

 

You always mention playing mods for other games, but when it comes to 7 Days you keep repeating that mods aren't a solution. Just sounds like someone in denial. The devs more than likely won't be adding a lot of this stuff back, but plenty of modders have.

Yes. I played. HL2 - yes a lot of things were changed that supposed to be in HL2. But this is not Valve fault (long story short) because they were hacked. So i wish we would see hydra, alien assasin etc. in hl2 but just... well bad things happens.

SW bf 2 have a rly good mod called SW bf 3 legancy mod - point of this mod is recreate canceled sw bf3.

And more and more.

But why i say that mods are not solution here. Reason is simple Because this don't change fact that this game were pretty hardcore on early stage of development. If they stick this vision - 7dtd would looks very diffrent, community would be very diffrent, mods would be very diffrent that we have now. And another game would be probably hardcore too. Now another their game will be casual too.