Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[KatsPurr]

3 minutes ago, Old Crow said:

This unfortunately creates a double standard. It's okay for the ladies to comment like that (as well they should be okay to comment thusly), but the boys can't say anything? On your side here, just something interesting to think about.

 

Yeah double standards suck. We can't control how regular players are going to behave. People will be people and will say whatever they want regardless of gender - especially on the Internet. However, what can be improved is how devs choose to present themselves, their work, and how they speak to the player base. That's the main point I was trying to bring across. 

[meilodasreh]

28 minutes ago, KatsPurr said:

out of all the variations, he decided to show the "boobies busting out her top" variation.

 

you mean this when saying "boobies busting out version?

 

and then not a single word about the male characters they chose to show?

 

this is all ok to you, right?

 

You must be the most sexist person 😅

 

 

[Moonflower]

I personally hate it when people start dissecting every little thing about a game, sex of mc, character models, skin colour. The game is a vision of the developers and if they envision a zombie apocalypse with female characters wearing only beachwear, well kudos to them, as long as they are not being disrespectful. And I have to tell you that female character model looks like she was given a lot of respect

[Jost Amman]

3 hours ago, KatsPurr said:

At the end of the day, none of the things I mentioned are very serious or disturbing on their own, the problem is how it all starts to add up. A real shame as this game has so much potential to be enjoyed by everyone equally.

I would take you much more seriously if you'd change your nickname to something other than "KatsPurr"... grrroww! 

 

On a more serious note: I think that part of the reason the dev team is like it is, it's because they can't change who they are. A man can struggle and force himself to try and see things from a female perspective, but it's hard as hell. In my opinion, to achieve what you ask, they should also hire a senior female artist/modeler. Then you'd probably see much more artistic and character content that would be nice from a female perspective.

 

Just to make you understand, I'm so obtusely "man-ish" that I can't help scrapping into paint every single pink dye I find!  

[Matt115]

4 hours ago, KatsPurr said:

 

 

If they would have shown additional normal female characters, there wouldn't have been a problem! But that was it. Just the big boobies and then they moved on. Where were the female characters that had as much personality and attention to detail as say the packrat dude for instance? Where was a female character that "told a backstory". All we saw were just big solid implanted boobs. And then that was it. Nuttin' else. I have to admit: it was a deflating moment to say the least.

 

 

There is not such things because game is simple as Doom or Minecraft. So - don't expect this will change into the last of us xd

[Laz Man]

4 hours ago, KatsPurr said:

I wouldn't mind seeing a "The Stud Farm", "The Muscle Mansion", "The Beefcake Bungalow" or a "Hunk Haven" POI appear for us ladies one of these days. POI designers: Make it happen! You know you wanna!

 

I will see what I can do...😅

4 hours ago, KatsPurr said:

So then they started going through one model after another, the artist fondly talking about all the cool little details and Easter eggs he'd added to the male characters. I thought to myself "Oh daaaammmnnn, if the MALE characters are THIS cool, I can-not WAIT to see the female characters!"

 

If it's any consolation, there is also a female version of the hoarder with all of the cool Easter eggs they talked about.  I think most of the male / female outfits are the same.

 

[Professor-Pip]

3 hours ago, meilodasreh said:

You must be the most sexist person 😅

 

 

I'm not certain the smily can diffuse that rather loaded comment. 

 

You are completely missing the point here, probably on purpose. The male character you chose to highlight is dressed only in skivvies, yes. But he is not wearing an outfit because he is a base character, not because the skivvies are considered a costume. He also does not have an absurdly large "package". The artist even said that he wouldn't show the female base character (presumedly in skivvies and bra) because it would be problematic, so we have nothing to compare him to.

The female @KatsPurr referred to *is* in a costume. A costume specifically designed to highlight her boobs. It is not the same as the male version of the desert costume, nor is it practical for protecting oneself from zombies. It's an outfit specifically designed to make her look sexy- short shorts, bralette, and a few token pieces of armor. Not cargo shorts, t-shirt and armor bits like the male outfit has. 

 

The point is that the artists and devs came off looking like dudebros by doing that, rather than like professionals who care about all of their players, not just the 14 year old male players.

[Roland]

4 hours ago, KatsPurr said:

As someone who loves - streams - creates POIs for and creates content about the game - I'd just like to chime in as a female player who is a HUGE fan of 7 days. Just like all you gents out there, I TOO feel the same emotions, the same excitement, the same hype, the same anticipation as you do about everything 7 days. I TOO have been looking forward to these dev streams! Just like you, when they started showing the lineup of character art during the art dev stream, I too was sitting on the edge of my seat, excited to see what was coming. 

 

So then they started going through one model after another, the artist fondly talking about all the cool little details and Easter eggs he'd added to the male characters. I thought to myself "Oh daaaammmnnn, if the MALE characters are THIS cool, I can-not WAIT to see the female characters!" Then when he finally got around to showing them, I mean it - out of all the variations, he decided to show the "boobies busting out her top" variation.

 

I wondered to myself: Was there a moment earlier in the day, where the devs discussed which variations to showcase on the stream? Were they saying things like: 

 

"Ok team, let's make sure to give some appreciation and love to our many female players out there and choose a really nice female player character to show them! They're gonna be so thrilled!"

 

or... did they say: 

 

"Duuuuude! Let's show our boys some eye candy, why don't we!? They're gonna looove the rack on this desert character! *giggity*!"

 

If they would have shown additional normal female characters, there wouldn't have been a problem! But that was it. Just the big boobies and then they moved on. Where were the female characters that had as much personality and attention to detail as say the packrat dude for instance? Where was a female character that "told a backstory". All we saw were just big solid implanted boobs. And then that was it. Nuttin' else. I have to admit: it was a deflating moment to say the least.

 

Listen: Let me make something absolutely clear 'kay? I absolutely DO NOT mind a game having hottie outfits for female characters in games. God knows how many hours I invested hunting for the skanky outfits in Anarchy Online and WoW back in the day. I also don't mind the only female trader in the game being a cutie called Jen who flirts with me from time to time. I don't even mind the fact that there are SEVERAL strip joints in the game catering to the gents out there. Heck, 7 days wouldn't be the same without the rough humor. I luvs it! (although, I wouldn't mind seeing a "The Stud Farm", "The Muscle Mansion", "The Beefcake Bungalow" or a "Hunk Haven" POI appear for us ladies one of these days. POI designers: Make it happen! You know you wanna!

 

What I do mind however is the at-times deaf tone and clueless attitudes in regards to making female players feel appreciated, included and welcomed. I remember when I started playing 7 days, one of the first things I noticed was that the traders addressed my female character as if she were a man. Then I remember the first time I saw Joel on stream... Honest question: What's the ONE THING your eyes zap to when he's on screen? The naked lady painting on his wall. I mean my god, it's a frickin' gorgeous painting, it really is! But that's beside the point. What makes this problematic is that a) It's highly unprofessional and has no place on a dev stream b) It creates a horn-dog-buzz amongst the male chatters and this can feel disturbing for female players just trying to focus on the information.

 

In the very least, it would be considerate if devs could at least avoid reacting to comments about the painting and just choose to focus on one of the other hundreds of comments that are actually about the dev stuff instead. When devs react to comments about the painting, it's like validating the horn dogs in chat and saying "Hey dudes, it's absolutely fine that you continue chatting about naked ladies. We don't need to care about how our female audience will feel or whether they will be creeped out or unwelcome!" Devs should be better than that, and lead by example. Instead of encouraging that sort of behavior.

 

There will be those of you who say: "Female players don't matter since the target audience is and always has been male" - Choosing a target audience is fine. But it can still be done in such way that doesn't make literally half of the population feel excluded and unwelcome at the same time. Besides, look at how many female streamers there are that stream this game. Isn't it time that females became a valued and respected part of the target audience?

 

At the end of the day, none of the things I mentioned are very serious or disturbing on their own, the problem is how it all starts to add up. A real shame as this game has so much potential to be enjoyed by everyone equally.

 

It wasn’t like that. They all showed one character they’ve worked on for A22. Most of them start with the male version and then do the female version. Like the pack rat—there is no female version yet. 
 

It just happens that the female version for the desert was finished in time to show and they were never planning to show everything they’ve done for A22 anyway. The female bandit they showed looked to be pretty detailed and not necessarily sexed up.

[meilodasreh]

@Professor-Pipnope. It is you who's missing my point.

 

I was just trying to point out the obvious flaw in the argument, when supposing the devs think like this:

4 hours ago, KatsPurr said:

or... did they say: 

 

"Duuuuude! Let's show our boys some eye candy, why don't we!? They're gonna looove the rack on this desert character! *giggity*!"

 

...and at the same time completely ignoring that this exact way of thinking could also be put why they chose naked, muscle-packed male character models,

as eye candy for the girls!?

 

If she stepped up for that the constant-nipple-slip jiggling physics on the party girl was unnecessary, I would have been completely at her side,

but the argument like she brought it up with the current character model setup, I don't agree with.

If you ask me, boobies seem pretty well contained on the A21 character in relation to the party girl, and also lots of other "occasions" one comes across todays.

 

But this is an argument I shouldn't have brought up in the first place,

so I apologize, I see now, I can only loose here.

 

Edited April 22, 2023 by meilodasreh (see edit history)

[Roland]

28 minutes ago, Professor-Pip said:

I'm not certain the smily can diffuse that rather loaded comment. 

 

You are completely missing the point here, probably on purpose. The male character you chose to highlight is dressed only in skivvies, yes. But he is not wearing an outfit because he is a base character, not because the skivvies are considered a costume. He also does not have an absurdly large "package". The artist even said that he wouldn't show the female base character (presumedly in skivvies and bra) because it would be problematic, so we have nothing to compare him to.

The female @KatsPurr referred to *is* in a costume. A costume specifically designed to highlight her boobs. It is not the same as the male version of the desert costume, nor is it practical for protecting oneself from zombies. It's an outfit specifically designed to make her look sexy- short shorts, bralette, and a few token pieces of armor. Not cargo shorts, t-shirt and armor bits like the male outfit has. 

 

The point is that the artists and devs came off looking like dudebros by doing that, rather than like professionals who care about all of their players, not just the 14 year old male players.

Sure, if you take a shallow cancel culture view of it thinking that what they showed is everything that they’ve done or will do. It was just a sneak peak and they each could only show one of the things they’ve finished. 
 

There are bound to be different body types, different races, and different costume styles. This one was obviously inspired by Tomb Raider just as the Wasteland Assassin male character looked to be inspired by Assassin’s Creed— but they won’t all be that way. 
 

Once we see the full cast of characters THEN we will know if the devs are unprofessional and a bunch of dudebros catering completely to 14-year old boys. 

Edited April 22, 2023 by Roland (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

7 minutes ago, Roland said:

Once we see the full cast of characters THEN we will know if they are unprofessional and bunch of dudebros catering completely to 14-year old boys. 

... and SnowDogs. 

[GoofMcGee]

2 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

Just to make you understand, I'm so obtusely "man-ish" that I can't help scrapping into paint every single pink dye I find!  

Hmm.  And I search for all the pink dyes.  Pink bicycle, pink moped, pink clothes.....  Pink is nothing to shun.  It is a mix of red and white.  Red is the most powerful male color there is.  Pink was stolen and we got blue.  Weak!  

 

*inserts Aerosmith's Pink*

 

[KatsPurr]

1 hour ago, Laz Man said:

 

I will see what I can do...😅

 

Woohoo! 😄

 

1 hour ago, Laz Man said:

 

If it's any consolation, there is also a female version of the hoarder with all of the cool Easter eggs they talked about.  I think most of the male / female outfits are the same.

 

 

I was guessing as much, but it actually makes it worse to know that they _could have_ chosen to show the hoarder female if they wanted to. But instead they chose the sexy one. And who were they catering to in that choice? Female players or the male audience? Definitely the male audience, giving no cares about how female players would feel.

1 hour ago, Professor-Pip said:

I'm not certain the smily can diffuse that rather loaded comment. 

 

You are completely missing the point here, probably on purpose. The male character you chose to highlight is dressed only in skivvies, yes. But he is not wearing an outfit because he is a base character, not because the skivvies are considered a costume. He also does not have an absurdly large "package". The artist even said that he wouldn't show the female base character (presumedly in skivvies and bra) because it would be problematic, so we have nothing to compare him to.

The female @KatsPurr referred to *is* in a costume. A costume specifically designed to highlight her boobs. It is not the same as the male version of the desert costume, nor is it practical for protecting oneself from zombies. It's an outfit specifically designed to make her look sexy- short shorts, bralette, and a few token pieces of armor. Not cargo shorts, t-shirt and armor bits like the male outfit has. 

 

The point is that the artists and devs came off looking like dudebros by doing that, rather than like professionals who care about all of their players, not just the 14 year old male players.

I was trying to figure out whether he seriously didn't understand the point or whether he was just trolling. Probably the latter. But thanks for going to the trouble to spell it out so I didn't have to. You understood the point precisely! The thing is, that if they had shown a NORMAL not-sexualized female character wearing underwear alongside the male one, there would be no problem what so ever! It would have totally softened the blow of the boobie character as well because female players would have seen that they will have a choice and that they won't be forced to be walking around looking like sex objects.

[meilodasreh]

11 minutes ago, KatsPurr said:

they _could have_ chosen to show the hoarder female if they wanted to

 

Maybe they did?

I have to admit, I can't spot any difference, what gender actually is inside that pile of clutter 😄 

...ok there's that little bit of fuzz on the upper lip...but that could be due to normal apocalypse hygiene? The face itself looks somewhat feminine to me.

 

---this is a great concept if you ask me, and I guess that's how I would look like anyways...except for that panama-class container ship that would stick out of my packpack to hold the rest of my cargo 🤣

 

Edited April 22, 2023 by meilodasreh (see edit history)

[Callum123456789]

Three words: it's a game.

Don't take it seriously.

[Riamus]

46 minutes ago, meilodasreh said:

 

Maybe they did?

I have to admit, I can't spot any difference, what gender actually is inside that pile of clutter 😄 

...ok there's that little bit of fuzz on the upper lip...but that could be due to normal apocalypse hygiene? The face itself looks somewhat feminine to me.

 

---this is a great concept if you ask me, and I guess that's how I would look like anyways...except for that panama-class container ship that would stick out of my packpack to hold the rest of my cargo 🤣

 

That's definitely a guy. 

 

There are valid points regarding the chosen female player character that was presented.  However, they also showed a female bandit who looked very well done.  The fact that the bandit was dressed that way is a good indication that female player characters can also wear similar types of outfits.  Making a big deal about it without seeing the rest of the choices is really just a waste of time as you have no idea what there will be.  Also, considering that female character was clearly meant to be similar to Lara Croft in Tomb Raider, there isn't anything wrong with that look.  If it was not clearly inspired by a very well-liked movie and just seemed to be the artist's original design, then it would be more questionable.  But that isn't the case.  And it is unfortunate to have these kinds of complaints as I'm sure the artist who worked on that character/outfit was probably very happy with the result of their hard work and after seeing these comments is probably feeling bad about it.  That isn't a good thing because they did do an amazing job regardless whether or not you appreciate the outfit.

 

I do appreciate KatsPurr's post as it was written very well.  It wasn't an attack like the first post about this a few pages back, but was a well thought out commentary on what was shown.  Everyone should feel welcome to voice such feelings here without being responded to in a negative way.  I for one tire of seeing this same style of female character design in so many games and would prefer better options.  But you kind of have to accept that games are made predominantly by guys even today and so you're going to get this type of design more often than not.  There are some amazing female artists out there - I'd say far more than male artists.  It would be great to see more of them in game development, not to mention getting more into the coding and other aspects of game development.  Having a more equal balance would go a long way in getting games that are not just catered to only males or only females.  As it stands today, you get the cutesy games that are clearly not made for the male audience and games with "eye candy" for guys that are clearly intended more for the male audience.  There are some studios that give you a more balanced game that is not so directly focused toward either male or female, but it isn't as common.  As long as we see games that are designed mostly for guys, you're going to continue to see this kind of design and these kinds of comments and responses, even from the devs.  It isn't really worth being upset about as it's simply what is going to happen from studios that are mostly male.  You cannot change how men think, just as you can't change how women think.  Trying to do so is an effort in futility and should not be done.

Edited April 22, 2023 by Riamus (see edit history)

[bdubyah]

People are complaining about that female outfit? Really? Do you ever go outside? I see females with less clothing on than that every time I'm out in public.

[meilodasreh]

thx for the reminder.

 

And may I kindy add:

game or reality, if you have a discussion, there will be different opinions. 

People with other opinions are not automatically trolls, sexists, or otherwise bad people.

They just have a different point of view, which one may or may not agree. This is all ok. Just please don't take it on a personal level.

 

 

[KatsPurr]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

It wasn’t like that. They all showed one character they’ve worked on for A22. Most of them start with the male version and then do the female version. Like the pack rat—there is no female version yet. 
 

It just happens that the female version for the desert was finished in time to show and they were never planning to show everything they’ve done for A22 anyway. The female bandit they showed looked to be pretty detailed and not necessarily sexed up.

 

The only thing players can base their perceptions and assumptions on, is what the devs choose to publicly reveal to us. It is those choices that I am critiquing. We players can't know about what goes on behind the scenes or how well intentioned they are. And for the record, I totally believe that none of the many things I listed were ever done with any malice towards female players. I'm sure most of those were merely thoughtlessness and being more focused on giving a cool experience to male players rather than realizing that those things might make female players feel unwelcome.

 

And on that note, I would just like to say that that any interactions I've had with devs have been nothing but gracious, friendly and welcoming. I have been treated very well and have no personal agenda against them. But I'm annoyed about the tone deafness on behalf of female players in general. (and yes, I realize there are many females out there who don't see what the fuss is all about), but I'm speaking for those who ARE bothered.

 

I often pondered whether I should make a video to explain all this stuff and send it privately to the team. But then this thread and the reaction to the art stream felt like the opportune moment to finally voice my thoughts. Even if it means that it will ruin any good relations I had already with the devs. Even if it means that I'm rejected from streamer weekend. Even if it means that I will lose any opportunity to ever apply to work for the company as an artist or POI designer. This is an important enough topic that I'm willing to sacrifice all of those things.

[meilodasreh]

Just now, bdubyah said:

People are complaining about that female outfit? Really? Do you ever go outside? I see females with less clothing on than that every time I'm out in public.

that's what I was trying to point out. I live in Western Europe, and the shown female outfit is really considered as a regular hot day's outfit, not "sex object"ish at all if you ask me. 

But again, that's a discussion you can only lose as a man. You just get "branded" and that's it

[Riamus]

6 minutes ago, bdubyah said:

People are complaining about that female outfit? Really? Do you ever go outside? I see females with less clothing on than that every time I'm out in public.

There's a difference in choosing what you want to wear and not being given a choice in what you wear, though.  I think that's the concern of at least some of those who didn't appreciate the female outfit.  I think that as long as there are other choices, those same people will be fine with this being in the game.  I think it was more that they didn't show an alternative option and it leaves it up in the air whether or not there will be other choices.  Even though I think it's obvious that there will be other choices.

 

Of course, there would also have been less complaint if the character wasn't so large up top.  That's usually a trigger for complaints of this type. 

Edited April 22, 2023 by Riamus (see edit history)

[meilodasreh]

2 minutes ago, Riamus said:

There's a difference in choosing what you want to wear and not being given a choice in what you wear, though.  I think that's the concern of at least some of those who didn't appreciate the female outfit.  

ah ok if that shown outfit would be the only one you could chose as a female, I completely agree this would be total sexist BS.

Edited April 22, 2023 by meilodasreh (see edit history)

[KatsPurr]

1 minute ago, Riamus said:

There's a difference in choosing what you want to wear and not being given a choice in what you wear, though.  I think that's the concern of at least some of those who didn't appreciate the female outfit.  I think that as long as there are other choices, those same people will be fine with this being in the game.  I think it was more that they didn't show an alternative option and it leaves it up in the air whether or not there will be other choices.  Even though I think it's obvious that there will be other choices.

Exactly THIS. And also the utter lack of consideration of how female players might feel: "Wow really? So this is what we got as a female character model? A sex object? Is this all we are to the devs? Are we not considered to be just as valuable and respected players?"

[bdubyah]

I think it's just more people have to find a reason to complain about everything.

 

It's TFP's game so if they want to make outfits like that, they can. Don't like it, don't play it anymore. I can think of dozens of games with outfits that look almost identical. People just gotta complain.

[Riamus]

5 minutes ago, bdubyah said:

I think it's just more people have to find a reason to complain about everything.

 

It's TFP's game so if they want to make outfits like that, they can. Don't like it, don't play it anymore. I can think of dozens of games with outfits that look almost identical. People just gotta complain.

Although there are very often times when I would entirely agree with you - complaints about jars being removed without having any idea if it will be good or bad, for instance.  This is different.  Everyone has the right to how they feel about stuff and to express that feeling.  The first post about this topic was inflammatory, but subsequent posts from others were not and should not be dismissed.  Yes, TFP can make any game they want.  If they want to purposefully target men with no regard for women, that is their choice.  However, I do not believe that this is what they are trying to do.  I think they do respect their female players and want to have female players.  It isn't a bad thing for them to be made aware of criticism regarding how they interact with their female players.  It can only help them to do better... assuming they do want to bring in more female players, of course.

Edited April 22, 2023 by Riamus (see edit history)