Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[KhaineGB]

13 minutes ago, Roland said:

Thats a nope. A new player might have a tough time learning new recipes but they would have zero problems skilling up. Skilling up is still governed by xp gained by mining, harvesting, building, killing, trading, etc. just like in A20.

 

Maybe he can ask in global chat if anyone will make him a blue stone axe since he can’t craft one himself while he skills himself up normally. Or maybe (since he doesn’t know anyone on that server anyway) he can find and join a more appropriate one. 

Sorry Roland, that's incorrect... on several counts.

In A20, you do quests and get XP and then buy STATS and perks to level your crafting. As per the posts here, you don't do that. It's all tied to this new LBL system.

If you're tying recipes and crafting to skills that MUST be learnt from a book, then that player will be at a disadvantage joining a running server where stuff has been picked clean.

Take it from someone who made an overhaul where people need to go out looting and then tried joining a server and having a hard stall on progress for nearly a week, so I gave up and spent skill points instead.

It is a legitimate problem, which is why I put in the ability to BUY those perks so players wouldn't be screwed by joining a server later.

[Roland]

45 minutes ago, Zombiepoptard said:

Maybe after you completing a quest you can choose what magazine you get along with the normal quest reward.

 
when you complete a quest you are usually given a choice between a bundle of mystery magazines, one named magazine, and then a typical reward like antibiotics or ammo or whatever. You have to choose. You don’t get mags with something else. 
 

The bundle is always nine magazines: three each of three random magazines. Your perk bonus does not affect the random draw for the bundle afaik. 

[Jost Amman]

11 minutes ago, KhaineGB said:

If you're tying recipes and crafting to skills that MUST be learnt from a book, then that player will be at a disadvantage joining a running server where stuff has been picked clean.

But wouldn't they find magazines while looting quest POIs anyway?

They can spam lvl-1 quests with a trader and pick clean those POIs; I'm sure they'll find plenty of magazines for whatever perk they put points into.

[Roland]

10 minutes ago, KhaineGB said:

In A20, you do quests and get XP and then buy STATS and perks to level your crafting. As per the posts here, you don't do that. It's all tied to this new LBL system.

You misinterpreted those posts then. 
 

Perks and skill points in A21 are still governed by xp which is earned by completing quests and gameplay activities exactly as we do now in A20. 
 

Recipes for crafting are no longer governed by perks. Instead you find magazines that unlock the recipes. 
 

Magazines have nothing to do with skill points or leveling up or improving your stats. Magazines only determine whether you can craft something. 
 

Someone who builds all the time will still skill up (probably faster than someone purely looting) and can become the best at shotguns. But they will be limited to whatever kind of shotgun they can either craft, buy, or find (or is found for them). 

[KhaineGB]

8 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

But wouldn't they find magazines while looting quest POIs anyway?

They can spam lvl-1 quests with a trader and pick clean those POIs; I'm sure they'll find plenty of magazines for whatever perk they put points into.

It still puts you at a massive disadvantage compared to starting on a clean server, unless you get lucky and get a crack-a-book as your quest (which starts at T2).
 

4 minutes ago, Roland said:

You misinterpreted those posts then. 
 

Perks and skill points in A21 are still governed by xp which is earned by completing quests and gameplay activities exactly as we do now in A20. 
 

Recipes for crafting are no longer governed by perks. Instead you find magazines that unlock the recipes. 
 

Magazines have nothing to do with skill points or leveling up or improving your stats. Magazines only determine whether you can craft something. 
 

Someone who builds all the time will still skill up (probably faster than someone purely looting) and can become the best at shotguns. But they will be limited to whatever kind of shotgun they can either craft, buy, or find (or is found for them). 

No I didn't. I think you misinterpreted mine.

You CANNOT get those magazines you are referencing easily on a server that has already been running for a while. Therefore you can't learn recipes, and you can't level your quality going by the screenshots shared.

THAT is what I was talking about. It will be a major thorn in MP play.

Which is also why, earlier in this thread when I mentioned that and it was skipped over, it would be better for TFP to lower the total amount of levels of those magazine "skills" and add the ability to purchase them via points.

[Roland]

@KhaineGB Zombiepoptard specifically said skill points are tied to looting and you agreed stating that “leveling your skills” would be a problem since it was a function of magazines.  So I guess I did misinterpret your meaning based on what you and Zombie typed. 
 

You rejected Josts post but he is correct that using quests to refresh the loot in POIs would definitely be a good source of magazines. Yes, there would be a disadvantage since places like Crack a Book and Shotgun Messiahs, and Police Depts would be long gone. But, come on, they picked a mature server. Pick a different one or live with the challenge of surviving in a picked over world or make some allies out of the people on the server to get some better gear. 

 

Who knows, maybe they will add the option to spend skill points in lieu of reading magazines once the current iteration is tested. That isn’t what they want to start with though. 

Edited August 2, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)

[Lasher]

19 minutes ago, KhaineGB said:

It still puts you at a massive disadvantage compared to starting on a clean server, unless you get lucky and get a crack-a-book as your quest (which starts at T2).
 

No I didn't. I think you misinterpreted mine.

You CANNOT get those magazines you are referencing easily on a server that has already been running for a while. Therefore you can't learn recipes, and you can't level your quality going by the screenshots shared.

THAT is what I was talking about. It will be a major thorn in MP play.

Which is also why, earlier in this thread when I mentioned that and it was skipped over, it would be better for TFP to lower the total amount of levels of those magazine "skills" and add the ability to purchase them via points.

There's a very good reason why Darkness Falls is so popular.

Because Khaine pays a great deal of attention to what people do and don't like about the game - and fixes it.

I think that's a pretty good strategy rather than just adopting a very combatitive "it's this way cos we say so and you can lump it" attitude.

Just sayin'...

 

[Roland]

And what about now in A20? How is that poor kid who joined a mature server finding the iron club schematic and enough of the right parts to craft a blue level version of it? Sure, he got busy and skilled up his perk to be able to craft blue clubs but everything is picked over so he’s stuck. 
 

Seems like more of a choice of what type of world you want to play in rather than a problem TFP has to fix to protect new joiners of old servers. 

[KhaineGB]

21 minutes ago, Roland said:

@KhaineGB Zombiepoptard specifically said skill points are tied to looting and you agreed stating that “leveling your skills” would be a problem since it was a function of magazines.  So I guess I did misinterpret your meaning based on what you and Zombie typed. 
 

You rejected Josts post but he is correct that using quests to refresh the loot in POIs would definitely be a good source of magazines. Yes, there would be a disadvantage since places like Crack a Book and Shotgun Messiahs, and Police Depts would be long gone. But, come on, they picked a mature server. Pick a different one or live with the challenge of surviving in a picked over world or make some allies out of the people on the server to get some better gear. 

 

Who knows, maybe they will add the option to spend skill points in lieu of reading magazines once the current iteration is tested. That isn’t what they want to start with though. 

I rejected it because, as mentioned, I currently have an overhaul where books are VERY important. So I have a pretty good idea of how looting works regarding that, and just living off resetting POI's won't cut it... at all.

If they're going to be quest rewards? That'll help a lot. But POI resets won't work. This isn't just making assumptions or anything... I've literally been running a system like this since at least A18. It's based off experience.

As for mature vs young server, people WANT to join a busy server most of the time in order to try and make friends, and those are usually the mature ones.

[Roland]

23 minutes ago, Lasher said:

There's a very good reason why Darkness Falls is so popular.

Because Khaine pays a great deal of attention to what people do and don't like about the game - and fixes it.

I think that's a pretty good strategy rather than just adopting a very combatitive "it's this way cos we say so and you can lump it" attitude.

Just sayin'...

 

LOL…I’ve seen Khhaine tell people to “lump it” when he didn’t like what they were “suggesting”.  I’ve even had to step in and handle some of those who reacted badly to being told to “lump it”. He’s as protective of his baby as TFP is of theirs. 
 

Nobody is telling anyone to lump it here. We are insisting that people play with the changes and give feedback at which point there very well may be adjustments made. 
 

No shade on DF. It’s a great overhaul mod and appeals very much to everyone whose preferences match up with what he’s done. 
 

I agree that for a mod it is a great strategy to listen to the changes people want and then mod those changes in. That’s the whole point of modding after all. Making a game is a bit different than making a mod though and has a different focus. 
 

9 minutes ago, KhaineGB said:

I rejected it because, as mentioned, I currently have an overhaul where books are VERY important. So I have a pretty good idea of how looting works regarding that, and just living off resetting POI's won't cut it... at all.

If they're going to be quest rewards? That'll help a lot. But POI resets won't work. This isn't just making assumptions or anything... I've literally been running a system like this since at least A18. It's based off experience.

I believe you and won’t it be so much richer to say “I told you so” if TFP ends up adding a way to spend skill points to go up the crafting ladder in their next iteration?

 

I’ll bring it up and cite your experience just in case @schwanz9000 missed your post in the sea of them. But TFP likes to do things in steps and it may be that step one is magazines only and step two is magazines and skill points and THEN you can gloat and I….will be your slave for a day 😀

Edited August 2, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)

[KhaineGB]

4 minutes ago, Roland said:

LOL…I’ve seen Khhaine tell people to “lump it” when he didn’t like what they were “suggesting”.  I’ve even had to step in and handle some of those who reacted badly to being told to “lump it”. He’s as protective of his baby as TFP is of theirs. 
 

Nobody is telling anyone to lump it here. We are insisting that people play with the changes and give feedback at which point there very well may be adjustments made. 
 

No shade on DF. It’s a great overhaul mod and appeals very much to everyone whose preferences match up with what he’s done. 
 

I agree that for a mod it is a great strategy to listen to the changes people want and then mod those changes. Making a game is a bit different than making a mod though. 

I can absolutely, 100% state with confidence...

...that I have done this.

And it's always because the complaints are "I don't like it" rather than actual feedback.

And while I can certainly understand that we haven't played A21, and therefore can't technically offer feedback... there is something that I wish TFP would actually consider.

Some of us have been around a long time, and dug in the XML, and dug in the DLL, and balanced our own projects, and seen how players react to things, and seen how systems work when implemented...

Just because we aren't on the team, and don't have a "hands on" with A21, doesn't mean we can't offer feedback, using our experience to make very educated guesses about what will happen.

I've said it before, and i'll say it again.

With some of the people who have THOUSANDS of hours, and us modders, there's a vast untapped resource here that TFP could use by giving us access and let us dig around and try things out and quite literally go "I can tell you what will happen with this."

And no, reporting bugs to get on the "testing team" won't work. Because I was on the testing team. And because we had to restart for every new build, I wasn't able to report bugs as fast as other people, only confirm that I was able to reproduce reported bugs.

Which apparently wasn't enough, so I was removed.

9 minutes ago, Roland said:

I believe you and won’t it be so much richer to say “I told you so” if TFP ends up adding a way to spend skill points to go up the crafting ladder in their next iteration?

 

I’ll bring it up and cite your experience just in case @schwanz9000 missed your post in the sea of them. But TFP likes to do things in steps and it may be that step one is magazines only and step two is magazines and skill points and THEN you can gloat and I….will be your slave for a day 😀

I honestly hope they do add in the ability to spend points... for 2 reasons.

1) It would help with my concerns regarding MP.
2) Those screenshots where the magazines show an icon of what unlocks at what level? I want that for my perks. Which means I need to be able to spend points. Yes, i'm a selfish prick.

[Roland]

I said SLAVE FOR A DAY!  

Hopes for better MP and free interface bling for your mod is what you care about?
 

What the hell?

 

(The answer is definitely no, @SnowDog1942)

 

Edited August 2, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)

[KhaineGB]

I mean, it's the A21 topic. I have to remain on topic for my hopes...

But if you insist...

You're a math teacher, right? You can balance my loot probs

[schwanz9000]

He said slave, not wizard. 😛

 

[KhaineGB]

2 minutes ago, schwanz9000 said:

He said slave, not wizard. 😛

 

I sense a non-believer in rolands magical prowess

[Jost Amman]

Even if I don't like the general attitude of "The Great Modders" of 7D2D (yes KhaineGB and Guppycur, I'm looking at you!), I like their mods. 

I've also proposed some time ago to actually give them access to the latest in-development iteration (NDA included).

 

That would give an additional perspective to the changes TFP are discussing and will also be a good PR move IMO.

 

Those same modders could then come to Steam and help us deliver much more hands-on information on the ongoing development (if allowed by TFP of course).

Most players will also be more inclined to give TFP the benefit of the doubt when receiving the news directly from the most popular modders.

[meganoth]

5 hours ago, Zombiepoptard said:

...

 

All because they want to add something shiny in the loot cycle. Sorry but I attribute that to a lack of forethought.

 

Ok, do you seriously see no other important reasons for the old crafting scheme to be replaced?

 

If yes, what does that say about the quality of your theoretical advice

 

[Guppycur]

Regarding new modded zombies specifically, these aren't what you think they are.  

 

We don't typically make the models, rig from scratch or animate them.  There are too many trades involved to do such a thing, typically.

 

We just find a good model somewhere and convert it so it works in game.

 

So no, they're likely never going to be AAA quality new models modded into the game that are consistent with the art. 

 

Along that line of thinking, as much as khaine et al does understand the game mechanics better than most players because of those hours digging into them, I think most if not all modders know their limits, and respect tfp for what they've accomplished.

 

That being said though, modders have a *lot* more opportunity to try different things, a luxary a production game company doesn't typically have, so while tfp changes direction there's probably going to be a modder or 10 who has tried it already and very possibly has valuable feedback on the results.

 

A game that's been in alpha for this long with a modding community this big, has seen and done a lot.  

 

Just saying.

 

So when khaine has feedback on something tfp is fixing to do, it very well could be from a place of experience.

 

Now, you can either mock that experience, as most of the sycophants do, or at least give it some more thought.

 

Your call.  As long as the game is moddable, idgaf.  

 

...removing jars is still weird though.

Edited August 2, 2022 by Guppycur (see edit history)

[Lasher]

I'm sorry but being told to "lump it" is EXACTLY the attitude players are met with.

Take, just as an example the changes to farming, which pretty much everyone who actually USED farming hated.

Was it reverted, no - those folk were just met with a wall of "it's great and it stays like that."

I've suggested time and time again that if there were OPTIONS to control the way more aspects of the game work it would keep a lot more people happy.

Is that ever implemented, no - it's the modders who allow us to revert gameplay features that we don't like - not TFP.

Same with the new crafting progression system - is anyone actually telling me that it's going to be removed if everyone hates it?

People like Khaine do indeed tell people to lump it - but it's a minority - if there was a majority who hated something about DF I'm pretty sure it would change.

The only difference here is the attitude. Modders work for free - for passion usually and they care a lot about feedback.

The devs seem to be a little less concerned - and I suppose they're entitled to be - it is after all their game and their baby to do what they want with.

We've already bought the damn thing so we have little to no power - maybe that's part of the problem.

 

But that kind of attitude is still a @%$# move.

 

[meganoth]

On 8/1/2022 at 5:40 AM, Neminsis said:

No, I didn't misread it, I just failed to mention that it was entered into groupautomotive under groupcraftinguncommon along with 3 other groups. I didn't think there was any great value added in defining the differences for every particular container or lootgroup. 
 

Which differs from 20 in 100 of a random assortment of its preferred containers by a huge amount...

🙄

 

Not much, I was just pointing out that your calculation method of loot changes is wrong and calculated this as an example of how it really works.

Certainly "a 1 in 2 chance of getting duct tape from any container that can spawn it"  as you said is nowhere to be found. Even if you meant it differently, any reader would be misled by such a statement.

 

On 8/1/2022 at 5:40 AM, Neminsis said:

I don't remember either but it's functionally the same if it requires a cooking pot to make.
 

Oh FFS, and you did not prove that every possible variable needs to be accounted for in order to derive value. Again, this is a form of modal fallacy equivalent of saying that you need to know what color a car is to determine its gas mileage.

 

I may have simply misunderstood a point you where making large arguments about.

8 hours ago, Crater Creator said:

 

Always finish your Sham Chowder before visiting the forum, kids!

 

And don't make any plans for next week. 😇

Edited August 2, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[outhous]

On 8/2/2022 at 8:12 AM, Lasher said:

... which pretty much everyone who actually USED farming hated.

... which pretty much everyone who actually COMPLAINED about it hated.   There fixed that for you.

 

On 8/2/2022 at 8:12 AM, Lasher said:

if everyone hates it?

So you some how have a way to know what "everyone" thinks & feels & likes. Why are you wasting that talent here on a game forum, you could be the greatest consultant in the world!

Edited August 3, 2022 by outhous (see edit history)

[Zombiepoptard]

6 hours ago, Roland said:

Oh good. It is. Individual features are not grand scheme. Grand scheme is “Player progression” and then the details of how the players progress can change and evolve all while keeping the grand scheme. We have had player progression since A11 and we always will because that and quests are the grand scheme for this hybrid genre game to have RPG elements noted in the roadmap for development. You look at an individual puzzle piece and think that is the whole puzzle. LBD was just method for character progression. We don’t have LBD any more (mostly) but we still do have character progression. Grand scheme maintained!

 

Looting is a key aspect of this game and it always has been. There is no getting around that fact. 
 

Also….falling behind whom or what? Who or what are you racing?

 

Does your buddy not feed you books now in A20?  It will be the same. If you are perking into different weapons than your buddy why would he want to read thiose magazines rather than bring them to you?

 

Incorrect. Skill points are not tied to looting. Only crafting recipes are tied to looting. Your loot hog buddy would have to be an idiot to read magazines for things he was not perked into and you were. Even if he did it would only mean that he would craft that item for you and give it to you. Most likely if you aren’t looting at all in A20 you are being given weapons that are found that you have perked into anyway so not much of a change. 
 

That’s up to the new player. You think new players on mature servers aren’t already being given permission to gear up out of fully stocked crates?  If they care about earning it on their own then they’ll refuse. If they don’t then they won’t. 

 

These problems don’t exist anywhere but in the fears and worries you’ve concocted about something you haven’t even tried yet— except your loot hogging buddies. They apparently exist and you can take care of that right now with a new server password…

 

There is no pidgeon holing with the magazines. They simply are the means for access to crafting recipes. Nothing more. You can still freely choose where to spend your points and you still gain those points by doing activities like building and mining.

 

Look Nostradamus, your vision is clouded at best. You don’t have all the variables and I had to correct you on how the magazines are even going to work.  I get your concern but you’re going to need to try it.

 

Thats a nope. A new player might have a tough time learning new recipes but they would have zero problems skilling up. Skilling up is still governed by xp gained by mining, harvesting, building, killing, trading, etc. just like in A20.

 

Maybe he can ask in global chat if anyone will make him a blue stone axe since he can’t craft one himself while he skills himself up normally. Or maybe (since he doesn’t know anyone on that server anyway) he can find and join a more appropriate one. 

 

 

 

First off thank you for thoroughly respond to my post. That is very much appreciated.

 

I do know books only give crafting skill points and that they are completely separated in the update. Your crafting character skill progression will still be effected.

 

I hope that we'll see the change where books will be a bonus. Normal leveling covers the two main playstyles, Settling (Building, Farming, Gathering, Crafting and Cooking) and Adventuring (Looting, Questing, Hunting) giving the same progression opportunities to both. The Learn By Looting system (where it's projected to be) puts the Settling player at a awkward position where if you spend a lot of time working on your base or doing the other things that settlers do that's a lot of time not gaining crafting points. 

 

I do see a reason to have the separation of perk and crafting points to allow for more freedom to build your character but I do think the Learn by Looting system over shoots the goal. Note: I have suggested the separation of skill points before and I approve of that aspect of the change.

 

"You think new players on mature servers aren’t already being given permission to gear up out of fully stocked crates?"

That's a whole different can of worms.

 

I think you need to convey the players to not cheat themselves out of good experience. I have thought about the idea of level locking higher tier weapons (and armor) so you won't be able to use the best of the best when you get into a game with your geared to the teeth friend. He'll have to just give you a high durability pipe weapon with a lot of ammo.

 

I also think that a level 6 durability (or just put a star where the 6* would be) weapon should be a crafted only item. It would be crafted with a rare and valuable item and would make every gun balanced to the highest tier gun. It would be possible with the new crafting system and would give more variety than just the singular end game weapon. You'd have your rare loot and something special at the end of the crafting tree. You can't ignore crafting and just buy the gun. You'd have to buy or loot the rare item then craft the best for whatever weapon you want. The lower level player would be able to use a normally crafted durability 5 pipe gun but not the durability 6* pipe gun that's a separate crafted item.

 

Learn by Doing should come back for some combat perks like they have it in the Undead Legacy mod. You still have your perks but you can add a bonus on top by using the respective weapon.

Edited August 2, 2022 by Zombiepoptard (see edit history)

[meganoth]

22 minutes ago, Lasher said:

The only person here who thinks they know what other people want seems to be you.

You dismiss anyone that didn't like the farming changes as a small minority of "complainers" and then decided to call me out when I said quite clearly "IF everone hates it" would it be changed?

Notice the "IF" there did we genius?

Try engaging your brain before replying - and try, and I do mean try, to not be in such raging fanboi mode when you do.

 

 

 

The first sentence outhouse was quoting had no "if" in it at all. The "if" came much later.

 

And I fail to find the "small minority" in outhouses post.

 

But you may be right that the critique against the second quote went too far. This is no reason for insults though.

 

 

Edited August 2, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[BFT2020]

4 hours ago, meganoth said:

Ok, do you seriously see no other important reasons for the old crafting scheme to be replaced?

 

I got two that bugged me which is why I am glad to see the changes:

 

• Once you perk into the progression (say gunslinger at level 3 perk), I can create a Q4 Pistol, a Q4 Magnum, a Q4 DV, or a Q4 SMG.  Why build the former two if you get the same quality as the latter two?
• And no Q6 crafting

 

Now with the changes, once you are able to finally craft a Q5 pistol, you can't craft the same quality SMG.

 

And yes, Q6 crafting hasn't been confirmed, but Madmole at least said he would consider it.  (and if not, I am sure I can mod it in my game).

[Lasher]

8 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

The first sentence outhouse was quoting had no "if" in it at all. The "if" came much later.

 

And I fail to find the "small minority" in outhouses post.

 

 

The implication was that it just complainers, basically a way of dismissing their opinion as a minority opinion.

The statement with the "If" in it did indeed come later - but that was exactly the one he quoted when he complained about me saying "if everyone hates it"

So whats your point?

How about you go back to my original statement and pick it apart in a reasoned way and provide some actual form of response instead of just closing ranks with your mates and defending them when they decide to be abrasive?

You're a moderator. it's not nice to show your bias.