Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[BasicallyACat]

22 minutes ago, Roland said:

Really.....and what pray tell is that degree and how easy is it to do exactly?

I suspect that your point with these replies is to get me to react so that you can tin-badge me out of here.

 

I think we're gonna disagree about whether the vanilla game's book 'read' icon sucks or not.  It's poor design to make something like this hard to notice, which is why I mod it.  I know visual design principles well enough, it's a crap design.  And the reason I think we won't agree on that is that you're bending over backward for TFP in response to so many things I've said here.

 

Multiple modders have made the zombie visual and/or physical variety better.  Why are you talking smug like I have to be a professional game designer to get this?  I've seen multiple people who don't work for TFP improve it.  Don't tell me it's not simple, pray tell.

 

The 'option' you state to remove the starter quest defeats the purpose since the 4 skill points aren't given.  Surely you know this, so why are you being disingenuous about it?  Why defend the low points of 7DTD with this kind of disingenuousness instead of accepting valid criticism?  If cancelling the quest cashes you out the 4 points, and that's something I don't know, still.... why not just put the option not to activate the quest in the server settings?  That's not hard.

 

I learned to use the mods and edit xmls precisely because TFP doesn't put the settings in the interface.  If you're saying xml edits = interface, you're just flat out talking horsecrap now.  How much are they paying you to moderate in this knee-jerk fashion?

 

Still pending... stiill pending...... still pending.........  Guy, the game has been in alpha for over a decade.  Don't act dismissive of valid complaints.  It's just making me hate these boards and TFP if that's how you're gonna super-moderate.  Grow up for chrissake.  A thing can be a mix of good and bad.

Edited July 27, 2022 by BasicallyACat (see edit history)

[Roland]

20 minutes ago, BasicallyACat said:

Seems pointless to me.  At early levels it takes time to go refill jars, it takes wood to purify the water, and you don't have a forge yet to create tons of jars.

 

Okay. You'll be able to confirm that for yourself once A21 releases to experimental. 

 

22 minutes ago, BasicallyACat said:

If I can never make jars nor buckets that help me get water from the lake that is right there, but I can make machine parts and electronics and a truck, that's dumb.

 

Agreed. But you are talking about realism vs gameplay in that pronouncement. The Navezgane Universe is already full of dumb oddities that you've already accepted and are perfectly fine forgiving for the sake of the fun gameplay you like. This one you don't care about since you'd rather TFP focus on cool tech to help with the increasing blood moon instead of early game water concerns so you aren't going to forgive and you are going to pull the realism card. I get it.

This game is quirky and off-kilter. It is not a simulation. You will either accept the oddities or you won't. The game can definitely be modded to be more simulation-like if realism is what you want.

 

28 minutes ago, BasicallyACat said:

Maybe the change to water will work to make the gameplay more interesting, resulting in a net-positive, and maybe it won't work.  But I don't get the reflexive defending, though. 

 

I agree that it may work for some and it may not work for others. I'm not sure what you mean by reflexive defending. I'm simply reporting information based on my experience. I know it isn't realistic. I also have enjoyed the changes to water. I'm not trying to speak for 90% of the player base. I'm saying that the progression of developing a renewable water source is more interesting and fun in A21 than it previously has been for me. I'm excited for others to play with it. The only time I defend is when someone states an inaccurate assumption or speculation about motive or reasons behind the change. Why? Because I'm an eyewitness who can state what was witnessed rather than some rando who is guessing. Maybe you like the guesses by randos. You can always put me on ignore if you don't like the reports I make of actual experience with A21 and actual conversations with the team.

 

I dunno...maybe you're talking about others who like the sound of the changes and start defending and saying we should trust and play it first before criticizing? If that's the case then I guess I would ask why the reflexive criticizing? Where does that come from? Worries the game will suffer and be worse? Most people around here are more hopeful than worried. They tend to defend what they hope will be good.

 

Maybe you meant something else. You'll have to clarify maybe.

 

41 minutes ago, BasicallyACat said:

It's not odd to expect SOME gameworld logic.  Some of that makes the gameworld have appropriate flavor.  If you could make a stick, and you could make a knife, but you couldn't sharpen the stick to make a spear, or if you could make a stone axe and a stone shovel and a stone arrow but not a stone spear, you could only find a spear, that would be stupid.  If you couldn't start a fire, only find a fire, that would be stupid.  The same could be fairly said about things like buckets, jars, glass bottles, etc.

 

I can't argue with that. This game is often not logical at all. As players we pick and choose what violations of logic are okay by us and which are not. You are picking and choosing because I know I could find something absolutely stupid and illogical about this game in regards to reality that you not only won't complain about but that you would reflexively defend because it supports the gameplay you enjoy. We all do it. Sorry that empty jars is your breaking point. I shrugged years ago and now just go with it and stupid or not I have fun.

[Roland]

10 minutes ago, BasicallyACat said:

I suspect that your point with these replies is to get me to react so that you can tin-badge me out of here.

 

That's not how I operate. If you're getting upset and ready to go toxic then take a break and come back when you can be calm. I don't want you banned from the forums and I welcome your criticism as long as you can do it without getting upset.

 

12 minutes ago, BasicallyACat said:

I think we're gonna disagree about whether the vanilla game's book 'read' icon sucks or not.  It's poor design to make something like this hard to notice, which is why I mod it.  I know visual design principles well enough, it's a crap design.  And the reason I think we won't agree on that is that you're bending over backward for TFP in response to so many things I've said here.

 

You said that the graphic doesn't exist in your original point and not that "it exists but I think it sucks". Why would you present your argument with an outright lie? Whether it sucks or not is subjective. It works well enough for me. That's not to say it couldn't be improved. But your point was based on the idea that TFP never created one at all and you knew that they had. This is what you call valid complaints and criticism? Just be truthful from the getgo and say that TFP put in a graphic but you don't like it instead of trying to spread disinformation. I suppose you'll say I'm reflexively defending because I'm pointing out what you did...

 

18 minutes ago, BasicallyACat said:

Multiple modders have made the zombie visual and/or physical variety better.  Why are you talking smug like I have to be a professional game designer to get this?  I've seen multiple people who don't work for TFP improve it.  Don't tell me it's not simple, pray tell.

 

Please provide examples. I've played a few overhaul mods with a greater variety of zombies and the visuals are definitely not better. I'm okay with that because its just a mod and I appreciate the effort and I'm much more of a gameplay over visuals kind of player anyway. But the developers could never release the game at those standards. The other thing about those mods with many many varieties of zombies is the performance hit to play with them. Again, modders are forgiven these things because they aren't held to the same standard as developers. The way they create those varieties is also different than how TFP creates new models. But I admit I haven't played every mod so I'd be willing to play a new mod and if the visuals of those zombies are better and the performance is just as good, I'll pass that info along to the devs. 

 

26 minutes ago, BasicallyACat said:

The 'option' you state to remove the starter quest defeats the purpose since the 4 skill points aren't given.  Surely you know this, so why are you being disingenuous about it?  Why defend the low points of 7DTD with this kind of disingenuousness instead of accepting valid criticism?  If cancelling the quest cashes you out the 4 points, and that's something I don't know, still.... why not just put the option not to activate the quest in the server settings?  That's not hard.

 

No need to put option in quotation marks. It really is an option you can choose to do or not. Why should you get the 4 skill points if don't do the quest? I never do the starter quest any more and I start with 0 points and earn them doing things other than the starter quest. What makes it disingenuous of me to mention that the starter quest can be cancelled if you don't want to do it? Its the truth. How did I know you already knew you could cancel it in the game? I wasn't even defending TFP by telling you that the tutorial quest can already be cancelled. You do realize that even if a top menu option to forego the quest existed you still wouldn't get the 4 skill points, right? The skill points are for doing the quest. If you don't do the quest you don't get the skill points.

 

As for why there isn't a top menu option? I don't know. There may never be since it can be cancelled so easily from within the game. Its actually better that way. I play with my brother and he may want to do the starter quest and I may want to opt out of it. A top menu option would force us to play it the same but an ingame option (that already exists) lets us each choose how to start the game. I could go either way but if I did have to defend one way or the other I would have to choose the way it is because it offers more versatility. 

 

Either way, I know Joel Huenink, and he doesn't give out points for doing nothing. Top menu or in game--if you opt out of the tutorial quest you start with zero points and not four points however the way to opt out of the starter quest ends up being presented

 

35 minutes ago, BasicallyACat said:

I learned to use the mods and edit xmls precisely because TFP doesn't put the settings in the interface.  If you're saying xml edits = interface, you're just flat out talking horsecrap now.  How much are they paying you to moderate in this knee-jerk fashion?

 

They haven't put all the settings they plan to in the interface...yet. But no I am not saying that xml edits = interface. I am saying that xml edits = the most amazing interface any game could ever have. Even once they finalize the interface it will be nothing compared to going in and adjusting values in the xmls. Those who are willing to do that will have the most powerful means of adjusting settings to their liking than any game menu can give. That's not horsecrap. That's pure truth and they pay me with current A21 access.

 

Like I said, you can take a break if you need to as you seem to be getting into personal attack mode. Here's me being a moderator: Please keep your comments focused on the topic and not attacking the person.

 

43 minutes ago, BasicallyACat said:

Still pending... stiill pending...... still pending.........  Guy, the game has been in alpha for over a decade.  Don't act dismissive of valid complaints.  It's just making me hate these boards and TFP if that's how you're gonna super-moderate.  Grow up for chrissake.  A thing can be a mix of good and bad.

 

It has not been in alpha for over a decade. But it most likely will be. So what? You've already admitted you enjoy playing mods and even feel like the game is even more enjoyable than the vanilla base game the devs are designing. Why can't you be happy with that? Why does the game already have to be finished? What is it you think is going to happen when we have 7 Days to Die 1.0? 

 

I'm not dismissive of valid complaints. I accepted your valid complaints and called you out where what you thought were facts were not. You can't say there has never been a graphic to show if a book is read or not and have anyone remotely familiar with the game accept that as valid. I do accept your valid complaint that in your opinion the default graphic is poorly executed. If you say there is no option to opt out of the starting quest, how can I not dismiss that? It isn't true. If you say that you would prefer the option be on the top menu, I can accept that criticism even if I don't necessarily agree since that would be more limiting than having it right where it is. If you say that you should get to start with 4 free skill points even if you cancel the quest, I guess I would have to hear your reasoning on that since I disagree. But that doesn't mean I dismiss it. I already agreed with you multiple times that not being able to fill empty jars at the nearby lake is weird and unrealistic. I totally accept that criticism.

 

I don't want you to hate these boards but I also can't just let false information that might make new forum members get the wrong idea fly unchallenged. A thing can be a mix of good and bad. For each person that plays 7 Days to Die there will be good and bad things. TFP is going to do what seems good to them in their own timeframe.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

@Roland Tbh, i much rather prefer more variety over visuals. And the visuals aren´t that much worse than vanilla. I can´t see the party girl anymore in vanilla. She is everywhere, in a lot of places where she is absolutly out of place, same for the businessman.  Now ofc the models that mods use also appear in weird places where you wouldn´t expect them, but as there is more zombie types it isn´t as remarkable.

 

And if TFP adds more types of zombies the visuals would obviously be to their standards. And they would also obviously be made the same way as the models we already have in vanilla, so how should that impact performance?

 

I don´t have any performance issues with overhaul mods unless there is tons of zombies, so the same as in vanilla, never seen any FPS drops when a modded zombie model spawned. I have a 200$ CPU and a 6 year old GPU.

Edited July 27, 2022 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Neminsis]

5 hours ago, Roland said:

In A20 murky water doesn't affect your character's health at all but in A21 it does and vitamins and purifiers don't mitigate that.

 

Healing Factor exists. I mean if the goal is to knock strength out of the #1 go to perk tree in favor of fortitude this'll do it.
 

5 hours ago, Roland said:

That's not how it went down. Your speculation is wrong

I mean you were there and all, but would anyone have used the dew collector if water hadn't been touched? Someone was thinking it.
 

5 hours ago, Roland said:

Incorrect. Harvesting water is not removed in A21.

I do love a good semantic argument, but unlike every other harvestable item you can't collect it in one place and then take it to another and then use it in recipes. I like that it'll force people to find that water source before setting up camp, 10 points for realism, I guess.

 

5 hours ago, Roland said:

Some will be more challenging but that should be good news to anyone who is a veteran of this game.

Part of my premise here is that this will not affect me on a normal playthrough at all until end game where it will become an annoyance. The other part of my premise here is that it will affect the edge cases, people that play with extreme loot restrictions, for example. Is a dew collector even possible with no trader, no loot respawn, 25% loot? 
 

5 hours ago, Laz Man said:

Consider it a new survival challenge.

No, it's just an annoyance. There is no "challenge" except to my patience, aesthetics, and how much crap my old computer has to load every time I decide to wander home which I'll have to do at least twice as frequently to collect enough water. 

I'm going to question the value of every block laid down.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Neminsis
OCD (see edit history)

[Neminsis]

3 hours ago, Roland said:

I shrugged years ago and now just go with it and stupid or not I have fun.

And you wonder why some might take your reporting of how fun the new system is with a grain of salt?

🙄

[meganoth]

9 hours ago, Neminsis said:

How about every single run through since a17? I've been drinking the murk and eating the sandwiches and throwing away jars all along, This isn't going to force me to change my playstyle at all up until late game when I need heavy production or when I play on extremely limiting settings.

 

Yes, accepted, Iron Gut will not be a bit better for you.

 

Did I claim it would force you to change your playstyle? I don't think so.

 

9 hours ago, Neminsis said:

Why would I want to buy anything else? Everything else in the game is harvestable.

That's kind of the point though, even if you had infinite water in the beginning it still doesn't come into practical effect until late game anyway. Limiting the stack size on jars would've covered the start of the game while still allowing the player to harvest more later when it's more necessary.

 

Making 50 glue in late game would be a pain-in-the-ass inventory management hell if you limited stack size of empty and filled jars like you seem to be promoting. Starting with producing 50 empty jars in the forge where you had to remove 6 jars every minute so the next 6 jars can be produced.

 

Then going to a sewer and filling each jar one after the other by moving them into the toolbelt, going out of the inventory, filling that single jar, then going back into inventory, moving another empty jar into the toolbelt, ... ad nauseum. I can't imagine anyone, even you, doing this.

 

Simple: Make a mod of your design and play it with a few people. Tell us how it went. Maybe you'll find problems with your design that you haven't thought about yet.

 

9 hours ago, Neminsis said:

You can try asking Laz if any pois are designed to be used as bases, and horde bases, or you could just look over the pois in the editor and count how many have ramps built in

 

I must confess I don't look at ramps specifically when I select POIs for horde base. Are you sure anyone else apart from you is doing that? The ramps I use tend to be only 1 block wide and often made out of steps instead of ramp blocks to slow down the zombies. So I always have to build them myself.

 

Also could you point me to POIs where the ramp seems out of place? Because a ramp is quite a normal thing in a parking garage or a store with sub-base storage rooms. Some ramps like in the house with the collapsed garage roof make the POI even unusable as horde base unless the ramp is removed.

 

But sure, I can also ask @Laz Man: Were ramps build into POIs to help with base building? Were POIs designed to be good bases at all?

By the way, you could have asked him or the TFP staff in general yourself instead of simply stating your conjecture as a truth.

 

9 hours ago, Neminsis said:

By reducing the number of playable scenarios. Consider a desert only map with low loot settings and no loot respawn. That's doable presently precisely because you can harvest water if you can find it. Removing the ability to harvest will cause that playthrough to be entirely up to RNG whether you last a week.

 

Don't think so. Even in the desert biome you will find water places in almost every town. You may have to rely more on urban areas and their sewers and swimming pools instead of the pure desert but you can make sure you are always not too far from a place with access to unlimited amounts of murky water.

 

Now surely it will take some effort to get the water now, but isn't that why that hypothetical player selected a desert map? I mean what else is a desert biome associated with?

 

9 hours ago, Neminsis said:

Would you be surprised to find out that all of those techniques are still available to the player? It was dumb exactly because it was a pointless solution to something that wasn't a problem in the first place. POI redesign had a much greater effect on restricting access to cheese. 

 

???? Naturally they are still available, I specifically said that TFP didn't do anything about it, because they didn't find a solution. Which isn't entirely correct because lately they moved a lot of loot rooms behind doors that can only be easily opened from one side with a key or button. So eventually they came up with a solution that at least makes some loot rooms harder to get to but still easy to escape out of.

 

This is why I asked why the intent was dumb, not why some solution is dumb. At the time they didn't find a good solution and I don't know what dumb solution you are even refering to above.

 

Note you can't know if there are solutions to a problem if you don't take a little time searching for them first. This is why I don't see how anyone can judge their looking for a solution dumb.

 

9 hours ago, Neminsis said:

5 slots of empty jars when you go looting? Yeah, people aren't going to do that. At most they'd make a specific trip just to gather water and they're unlikely to even do that if they're getting enough murky water from looting.

 

I can only speak for my little group of co-op players that I know very well. And I know they greatly prefer tea and boiled water over murky water because they don't ever drink murky water and we usually have a good supply of teas by day 2.

 

In your scenario they surely would cook enough tea over night so everyone could take 5 with them. And they would simply drink them and drop the empty jars whenever they would need space for the loot they find, especially if empty jars had a stack limit of 1.

 

You speak of "people", but are you sure you know how they play?

Asking any readers of this: What are you drinking on say day 2 of a game? Murky water or boiled water and tea?

 

9 hours ago, Neminsis said:

I agree that cooking pots are a bit too easy to come by early game, but if you limit how much water can be cooked per fire you'll just get campfire spam end game when you can just make cooking pots anyway.

 

9 hours ago, Neminsis said:

I think that the reasoning behind the change is important because it gives clues as to the depth of thought that went into this and what's likely to come about during the test branch.

 

Edited July 27, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[meganoth]

2 hours ago, Neminsis said:

I mean you were there and all, but would anyone have used the dew collector if water hadn't been touched? Someone was thinking it.

 

But this simply assumes that the dew collector came first and then they thought about how could it be made useful.

 

What if the water jars change came first and then they thought about how the player could get a reliable and growing supply of water for later game stages ?

[BFT2020]

22 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Asking any readers of this: What are you drinking on say day 2 of a game? Murky water or boiled water and tea?

Boiled waters and teas if I found the recipes for them (from A20 playing).  Campfires are easy to craft and since A20 doesn't require a cooking pot, I can satisfy my thirst by just pausing my looting / exploring and boil some water.  A21 is going to be interesting.

 

I never made a specific trip just to go get water for drinking.  I would carry the jars on me and fill them if I came across a water source.  I have done a quick run to a close water source nearby my base at night if I realized I needed the murky water to make some glue early game, but only if it was very close and that was the only component I was missing to craft something.

[Fanatical_Meat]

Honestly I cannot think of a time in any Alpha where I intentionally drank murky water. I’ve done it unintentionally and it sort of sucks.

Typically I have plenty of water almost immediately other than that first day or two that gives one moment of “hmm should I drink that water I found in the toilet?”

Maybe part of it is they game hasn’t had a severe death penalty, particularly once you have some stuff in a chest & a bedroll somewhere safe. Dying and coming back with a good amount of health and a moderately full belly isn’t a bad option.

[Neminsis]

29 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Did I claim it would force you to change your playstyle? I don't think so.

No, I brought it up myself to point out that these changes won't change early game for that specific playstyle. Partially to soothe anyone worried that it would and partially to show that I wasn't whining just to whine.
 

 

34 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Making 50 glue in late game would be a pain-in-the-ass inventory management hell if you limited stack size of empty and filled jars like you seem to be promoting.

You wouldn't even need to craft any jars. You'd only be able to collect them a few at a time, and they'd require a storage box of their own, but once filled they have the same stack size that murky water does, and remember, in this little thought experiment the dew collector still exists, and you still have a reason to use it.

The entire point is that it doesn't replace the need for the dew collector and still gives the player the option of picking up another stack of murky water if they need it because they mistimed when to be at base to collect their water.
 

54 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Simple: Make a mod of your design and play it with a few people. Tell us how it went. Maybe you'll find problems with your design that you haven't thought about yet.

 

Why? Would it make my argument any more convincing? No.  It wouldn't change anyone's mind whatsoever. Saying, "make a mod" is just an easy way to dismiss anyone that disagrees with anything. After that comes, "well if you don't like it than don't play it" etc. 
 

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

By the way, you could have asked him or the TFP staff in general yourself instead of simply stating your conjecture as a truth.

Which is exactly the same thing that you're doing when you say that none were built with bases in mind.
 

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

Don't think so. Even in the desert biome you will find water places in almost every town.

Water that's only usable when you're standing right next to it, can't be carried and can't be used in recipes. Those water sources are all useless unless.
 

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

At the time they didn't find a good solution and I don't know what dumb solution you are even refering to above.

The dumb solution was to remove nerd poling, much in the same way I believe the dumb solution is to remove water harvesting.
 

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

can only speak for my little group of co-op players that I know very well. And I know they greatly prefer tea and boiled water over murky water because they don't ever drink murky water and we usually have a good supply of teas by day 2.

A20 or a21? If it's a20 then it's a moot point, and if it's a21 then it shows that there is no scarcity being imposed to make it more challenging.

It's starting to sound like you're getting annoyed with this conversation. It's just thought experiment and I do appreciate your engaging in it with me.

 

[Neminsis]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

What if the water jars change came first and then they thought about how the player could get a reliable and growing supply of water for later game stages ?

The water jars were a reliable supply of water that made the dew collector pointless. 

They'd've had to start with the idea that there was too much water, skip over all the ways that water could be limited, and go right to "you can have water when we say you can have water" That doesn't paint the prettiest of pictures to the thought process here either. 

We've already talked about limiting stack size of jars, but there's also increasing the costs to make them or making them uncraftable entirely so that your collection of refillable jars grows at a slow but steady pace. These are such obvious and simple solutions that it's hard to believe that they were considered and then rejected without trying them before effort went into making a new asset.

[unholyjoe]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

 

But this simply assumes that the dew collector came first and then they thought about how could it be made useful.

 

What if the water jars change came first and then they thought about how the player could get a reliable and growing supply of water for later game stages ?

not gonna quote the discussion but... the talks was first brought forward about the abundance of water then the dew collector discussion started up and then all the ramifications were mentioned including the forum outrage over something simple. ooops i was thinking out loud again.

[BFT2020]

27 minutes ago, unholyjoe said:

not gonna quote the discussion but... the talks was first brought forward about the abundance of water then the dew collector discussion started up and then all the ramifications were mentioned including the forum outrage over something simple. ooops i was thinking out loud again.

I don't believe that at all.

 

This is how I think it rolled out:

 

• Roland - "Hey the forums are pretty quiet and calm, we need some new controversy"
• TFP Staffer #1 - "Let's remove empty jars and cans, and see if we can rile them up some."
• Roland = "Perfect, but we need to come up with a justification.  What are we going to implement to replace empty jars?"
• TFP Staffer #2 - "Lets introduce a new mechanic, make the survivors process and drink their own urine."
• TFP Staffer #1 -"That's a great idea, but lets put a pin in that one.  We release that after 2-3 Alphas so we messed up everyone after learning a new mechanism.  Any other ideas?"
• TFP Staffer #3 -"Dew collectors.  Then once we change to the urine idea, we can still use them as props."
• TFP Staff #1 - "Great, get to work on the dew collectors.  Roland - let everyone know about those, but keep the urine thing to yourself."
• Roland - "Got it, doing it now"

obviously I am bored at work right now

[Laz Man]

3 hours ago, meganoth said:

Were ramps build into POIs to help with base building? Were POIs designed to be good bases at all?

 

Technically all POIs can be converted to horde bases.  Level design will occasionally build some elements into a POI that make them more appealing as bases (e.g. convenient entry ways, elevated firing positions, etc.).  Non-questable / remnant POIs are a good example of this.

 

However, we never build POIs for x number of workstations / farm plots / storage containers.  A big part of what makes 7 days to die great is that it's a fully destructible / buildable world.

 

Maybe if the game was not fully buildable / destructible, I could see where limited space is an issue but not in this games case. 

 

Just look up bases on YouTube and you will see players have no problem coming up with creative solutions to house / support all of their base needs.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Laz Man (see edit history)

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, Neminsis said:

No, I brought it up myself to point out that these changes won't change early game for that specific playstyle. Partially to soothe anyone worried that it would and partially to show that I wasn't whining just to whine.
 

 

You wouldn't even need to craft any jars. You'd only be able to collect them a few at a time, and they'd require a storage box of their own, but once filled they have the same stack size that murky water does, and remember, in this little thought experiment the dew collector still exists, and you still have a reason to use it.

 

So stack limit of empty jars=1, stack limit of murky water jars= 250 or whatever it is now?

 

Ok, yes, that would remove a lot of the inventory management grind. Still there would be a lot left: Not when you make glue as the jar is not returned, but every jar you drink from has to be refilled by a rather cumbersome procedure at the moment (i.e. moving to tool belt, exiting inv, filling at water, removing from tool belt...).

 

What would be the stack size of boiled water and teas then? 1 or 10 like A20?

 

1 hour ago, Neminsis said:

The entire point is that it doesn't replace the need for the dew collector and still gives the player the option of picking up another stack of murky water if they need it because they mistimed when to be at base to collect their water.
 

 

Why? Would it make my argument any more convincing? No.  It wouldn't change anyone's mind whatsoever. Saying, "make a mod" is just an easy way to dismiss anyone that disagrees with anything. After that comes, "well if you don't like it than don't play it" etc. 

 

2 effects: Either you find out some problems or you can release that mod and point anyone who doubts that it would be fun and working like advertised (like me) to play it. Experiment tops theory.

 

1 hour ago, Neminsis said:

Which is exactly the same thing that you're doing when you say that none were built with bases in mind.

 

No, I said I doubt it. Doubting is not knowing. The only clues I have is that I never to my knowledge have heard a developer say that they build POIs as base models as you claimed. Also that I didn't notice anything in POIs that looked like they had bases in mind. Evidence, not proof at all.

 

1 hour ago, Neminsis said:

Water that's only usable when you're standing right next to it, can't be carried and can't be used in recipes. Those water sources are all useless unless.

 

Right, just not useless. Water sources like sewers are able to keep you hydrated (which I would say would be my first concern at all times as it regulates stamina regen). But for teas and glue and other stuff one needs to loot or buy water. Only playtesting will show whether you can get enough of that from loot, trader and dew collectors.

 

1 hour ago, Neminsis said:

The dumb solution was to remove nerd poling, much in the same way I believe the dumb solution is to remove water harvesting.

 

I have to quote myself from before: "They didn't want to remove nerd poling, but they wanted to limit its use case to building if possible and remove the capability to get easily out of danger or reach treasure chests with it.".

 

1 hour ago, Neminsis said:

A20 or a21? If it's a20 then it's a moot point, and if it's a21 then it shows that there is no scarcity being imposed to make it more challenging.

 

A20. I don't have access to A21. And it isn't a mood point as I was talking about the preferences of my co-players and that they would not simply drink murky water unless that were by far the best option.

 

1 hour ago, Neminsis said:

It's starting to sound like you're getting annoyed with this conversation. It's just thought experiment and I do appreciate your engaging in it with me.

 

Not that I know of. Naturally, once people start discussing sentence by sentence it looks like a sparring match from outside.

48 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

I don't believe that at all.

 

This is how I think it rolled out:

 

• Roland - "Hey the forums are pretty quiet and calm, we need some new controversy"
• TFP Staffer #1 - "Let's remove empty jars and cans, and see if we can rile them up some."
• Roland = "Perfect, but we need to come up with a justification.  What are we going to implement to replace empty jars?"
• TFP Staffer #2 - "Lets introduce a new mechanic, make the survivors process and drink their own urine."
• TFP Staffer #1 -"That's a great idea, but lets put a pin in that one.  We release that after 2-3 Alphas so we messed up everyone after learning a new mechanism.  Any other ideas?"
• TFP Staffer #3 -"Dew collectors.  Then once we change to the urine idea, we can still use them as props."
• TFP Staff #1 - "Great, get to work on the dew collectors.  Roland - let everyone know about those, but keep the urine thing to yourself."
• Roland - "Got it, doing it now"

obviously I am bored at work right now

 

I like the urine idea. Carry on 😁

39 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

 

Technically all POIs can be converted to horde bases.  Level design will occasionally build some elements into a POI that make them more appealing as bases (e.g. convenient entry ways, elevated firing positions, etc.).  Non-questable / remnant POIs are a good example of this.

 

Interesting. @Neminsis Seems you were right with your conjecture, POIs get modifications to make them more appealing as horde bases.

 

39 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

 

However, we never build POIs for x number of workstations / farm plots / storage containers.  A big part of what makes 7 days to die great is that it's a fully destructible / buildable world.

 

Maybe if the game was not fully buildable / destructible, I could see where limited space is an issue but not in this games case. 

 

Just look up bases on YouTube and you will see players have no problem coming up with creative solutions to house / support all of their base needs.

 

[JCrook1028]

13 hours ago, meganoth said:

Any source for this? Do you remember who said this? I am reading this forum since A15 and I don't remember anyone from TFP ever saying that pois were designed as bases. I forget a lot of things, but if it was mentioned many times I should have noticed it by now

He's talking about the remnants POI's and yes they've said they were designed as repairable bases. I think it was on streams.

[Roland]

5 hours ago, Neminsis said:

And you wonder why some might take your reporting of how fun the new system is with a grain of salt?

🙄

Everyone should. I’ve never claimed to speak for everyone like some around here do…

[JCrook1028]

10 hours ago, BasicallyACat said:

A graphic that shows you whether you've read a given schematic should have been incorporated into the game ages ago.

Um yes it has. Open book vs closed book.

[meganoth]

2 hours ago, Neminsis said:

The water jars were a reliable supply of water that made the dew collector pointless. 

They'd've had to start with the idea that there was too much water, skip over all the ways that water could be limited, and go right to "you can have water when we say you can have water" That doesn't paint the prettiest of pictures to the thought process here either. 

We've already talked about limiting stack size of jars, but there's also increasing the costs to make them or making them uncraftable entirely so that your collection of refillable jars grows at a slow but steady pace. These are such obvious and simple solutions that it's hard to believe that they were considered and then rejected without trying them before effort went into making a new asset.

 

And I talked about limiting stack sizes having at least one serious drawback that should be taken into account.

Obvious and simple solutions often don't cut it when you inspect them further. I can already see possible problems with those further solutions you are proposing. Doesn't mean they might not be solutions in the end, maybe after some adjustments. But it happens that the creator of an idea is often too "close" to it to see the drawbacks. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 27, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Roland]

8 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

@Roland Tbh, i much rather prefer more variety over visuals.

Me too. But neither of us are calling the shots for the game. The two that are, care very much about visuals and are unwilling to compromise their visual standard for variety as has been demonstrated many times. 

 

8 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

And if TFP adds more types of zombies the visuals would obviously be to their standards. And they would also obviously be made the same way as the models we already have in vanilla, so how should that impact performance?

It wouldn’t impact performance but it takes a lot of time to do. They are creating new models as we speak— bandits…a dozen or so of them I believe was mentioned. So TFP has obligations to fulfill for their base game and are working towards that while modders simply do whatever they want and using inferior methods such as the legacy UMA or free domain models or even asset store models which are three methods to more quickly get variety but none that TFP uses opting to use in-house artists to draw,  model, and rig up original assets. They are also adding variety to the world to make the environment better looking. All of this work has to be managed and divided. 

 

8 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

I don´t have any performance issues with overhaul mods unless there is tons of zombies, so the same as in vanilla, never seen any FPS drops when a modded zombie model spawned. I have a 200$ CPU and a 6 year old GPU.

Great. And I don’t see much or any performance drops when I double the spawn numbers of zombies in the xml files and yet TFP won’t do that either. The game isn’t feature complete and they know what adding the rest of the features is going to cost them so they are being conservative with what they do now. 
 

Sometimes they do push things like the city center tiles with high density buildings and spawn volumes and higher spawn numbers and faster spawn rates. And look at the guff they get because of the performance hits people experience in those areas. 

37 minutes ago, JCrook1028 said:

Um yes it has. Open book vs closed book.

He already knows but apparently thought it sounded more impactful for his argument to say it doesn’t have one at all rather than say that it has one that he feels is not very good. 

[pApA^LeGBa]

@Roland Well the cities are a new feature, i am pretty sure the optimization for that isn´t at it´s full potential yet. If it is, they need to rework the cities as a whole, the current performance there is in no way acceptable. That´s not a hardware issue, people with good PC´s have this aswell. And you can´t tell me they didn´t know it will cause lag and upset some people, yet they released it. That´s normal in development. Even with all the rants about it the player numbers are stable, so people ranting about is not an issue at all. Not even the EPIC drama, wich upsets people way more, did bring down the player numbers. 

 

I don´t care when, but the current models aren´t enough tbh. There is a lot of arechtypes missing, like people in sports outfit for example (not talking about the football player, people who were playing tennis or jogging when they turned for example). People in working clothes from fastfood chains or supermarkets, etc.

 

For the spawnrate, we really need the slider back for the zombie spawn rate. And please don´t tell me that people don´t like to many options or get confused by them, that´s BS. Look at ARK. It´s still popular. And it has a TON of options and players. 

Edited July 27, 2022 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Roland]

3 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

I don´t care when,

Great. Thanks for your patience. 

[Roland]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

But it happens that the creator of an idea is often too "close" to it to see the drawbacks. 

 

And that goes for TFP as well which is why there is a team that discusses and when things are implemented it is tested and then adjustments are made and then most importantly it is released to larger gamer population in early access so that drawbacks and ramifications can be seen. That is exactly why some things are removed after being implemented. Some people think the devs remove stuff because of negative criticism being typed out but more often it is because of what they have observered and the trends they've seen that work against the design they envision. Unfortunately, some players become married to some features and start to think those features define the game for themselves and that they should define the game for everyone. Others also mistakenly believe that the devs don't have the right to change things if it forces those people to change their playstyle.

 

No amount of criticism or praise written about the water changes and the crafting changes are going to stop TFP from releasing them to experimental and possibly even for months of gameplay in the stable alpha version so they can assess all those things they were possibly too close to see when they implemented them. Its funny how people claim that once it is released that it probably won't ever get changed and yet...these are the same people who criticize TFP for changing things previously released yet again..lol

 

Edited July 27, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)

[Roland]

7 hours ago, Neminsis said:

I mean you were there and all, but would anyone have used the dew collector if water hadn't been touched? Someone was thinking it.

 

Removal of empty jars was the starting place. It actually goes way back to the beginning when the game used to never return an empty jar after drinking water. There was a lot of discussion about that on the forums and in team meetings. Those who were more reality minded of course wanted the empty jar returned-- after all, where did it go? So they changed it. Since that time empty jars have been a pain in the development ass and there have been multiple discussions about just removing empty jars to bring jars into alignment with the other containers in the game that are not returned. It was always put on the back burner.

 

WIth A21 we got a new XML Developer and when that happens you get new perspectives on what should take priority. One of his priority tasks was to try and balance drinks and food with the trader and in loot and that led to the issue of jars for miles and the fact that they were infinitely refillable and players were getting a stack by the end of Day 1. Removing empty jars came up again and they pulled the trigger as well as reverting the game to its original design of drinking water not returning a jar.

 

At the same time Madmole had designed the magazine system for crafting progression. As the team talked they decided that a new workstation that provided water could help with early to midgame water survival now that jars were gone. That would help fill out the Forge Ahead ladder as well as provide a new type of farming focused on water.

 

Then it was fine tuning and balancing from there. In the first iteration the uncraftable part of the dew collector was a blue barrel but that later changed to a water filter. Other changes that followed were to change loot so that pure water could no longer be found-- only murky water and that a pot was to be required once again to boil murky water into pure water. Finally, the game was reverted once again to allow players to be able to drink water directly from water sources. All of these changes significantly increased murky water as a game asset. Very few people were drinking murky water and nobody was having to deal with dysintery at all. Simply lowering stack sizes of jars would not have accomplished this. The team also felt that being able to drink straight from a water source would be a safety net for new players who might not be able to quickly find a pot and not loot enough to find enough water to keep their hydration up.

 

We played with these changes and really enjoyed them. Madmole added the final touch (so far) of making murky water parallel Old Shamwiches in that they hurt your health in return for improving your hydration.

 

That's where it is right now and there may be more minor changes by time you get your hands on it but it definitely isn't going to be reversed before the larger population gets it and plays it. The removal of empty jars has literally been years in the works and simply delayed time and time again. That is not likely to change again.