Alpha 21 Dev Diary

[DocRussel]

5 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

I sometimes are visiting the channels youtubers and streamers that I know from the time of A15 and A16. Almost all of them don't build bases anymore but just stand on roofs of POIs and shoot down.

 

Does your definition of "build" not count completely retrofitting a POI into a base or horde base?  To me, that is still under the umbrella of building.  Literally none of the online videos I watch today that also played back then just stand on a roof and shoot down.  I don't mean that as an exaggeration but none of them refrain from building/modifying.

 

I build almost all of my home bases and horde bases from scratch, as I have from back them.

[RipClaw]

8 minutes ago, DocRussel said:

Does your definition of "build" not count completely retrofitting a POI into a base or horde base?  To me, that is still under the umbrella of building.  Literally none of the online videos I watch today that also played back then just stand on a roof and shoot down.  I don't mean that as an exaggeration but none of them refrain from building/modifying.

 

I build almost all of my home bases and horde bases from scratch, as I have from back them.

It depends on how extensive these modifications are. Knocking down a few blocks and maybe adding a roof against vultures doesn't really count as building for me. But this is what I see a lot of times.

 

Take a look at the videos from Guns Nerds and Steel or WaywarEko. What these players are doing is building.

 

 

[jorbascrumps]

2 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

It depends on how extensive these modifications are. Knocking down a few blocks and maybe adding a roof against vultures doesn't really count as building for me. But this is what I see a lot of times.

 

Take a look at the videos from Guns Nerds and Steel or WaywarEko. What these players are doing is building.

 

If you place a block you are by definition building, regardless of where it is in an existing structure or not. If people enjoy setting up a base in an existing building, let them. If you enjoy building from scratch, go ahead.

[RipClaw]

23 minutes ago, jorbascrumps said:

If you place a block you are by definition building, regardless of where it is in an existing structure or not. If people enjoy setting up a base in an existing building, let them. If you enjoy building from scratch, go ahead.

Where did I ever say that I would want to prohibit players from using POIs as bases?

 

I only said that building has become meaningless in the game because a lot of the existing POIs are more than sufficient both as a base and can be easily secured by removing a few blocks. If someone builds bases scratch then he does it because he likes to do it but there is no incentive in the game to do so.

 

Edited May 15, 2023 by RipClaw (see edit history)

[jorbascrumps]

6 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

Where did I ever say that I would want to prohibit players from using POIs as bases?

 

I only said that building has become meaningless in the game because a lot of the existing POIs are more than sufficient both as a base and can be easily secured by removing a few blocks. If someone builds bases scratch then he does it because he likes to do it but there is no incentive in the game to do so.

 

 

I never said you were suggesting such a thing.

 

I don't get why you care how others play. This is supposed to be a sandbox so why do players need incentives to do anything other than to have fun? Building has become meaningless to you but not for everyone else who still enjoys it.

[hiemfire]

8 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

there is no incentive in the game to do so.

 

8 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

he does it because he likes to do it

Is all the incentive that should be needed, otherwise it ends up being a mandatory/required playstyle.

[Pineapple Killer]

19 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

Where did I ever say that I would want to prohibit players from using POIs as bases?

 

I only said that building has become meaningless in the game because a lot of the existing POIs are more than sufficient both as a base and can be easily secured by removing a few blocks. If someone builds bases scratch then he does it because he likes to do it but there is no incentive in the game to do so.

 

XP is a large incentive to build. You can get a good few levels upgrading blocks

[Riamus]

22 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

Where did I ever say that I would want to prohibit players from using POIs as bases?

 

I only said that building has become meaningless in the game because a lot of the existing POIs are more than sufficient both as a base and can be easily secured by removing a few blocks. If someone builds bases scratch then he does it because he likes to do it but there is no incentive in the game to do so.

 

Why does the game need to incentivize building a base from scratch?  If people want to do it, they'll do it and don't need any incentive.  If they don't want to, then they don't need to.  An incentive just pushes people to do something they may not really want to do.  Besides, when it comes down to it, there is already incentive in the amount of experience you get if you use the upgrade method of building rather than building with steel from the start.  That and the enjoyment (for those who like building) of creating something themselves.  I think that's plenty of incentive and anything else would just be an attempt to force people to feel like they have to build because of the incentive.

 

Keep in mind that using a POI is a perfectly acceptable way to play the game.  There is no reason to try to get more people to build bases if that's not what they want to do.

Edited May 15, 2023 by Riamus (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

24 minutes ago, Riamus said:

Why does the game need to incentivize building a base from scratch?

It does not need it but it would be a way to make up for the time and effort builders put into their builds. A way to show a little love.

 

28 minutes ago, Riamus said:

An incentive just pushes people to do something they may not really want to do.

Funny that you mention it because, as you wrote before, there are builders that don't really want to loot.

 

30 minutes ago, Riamus said:

Besides, when it comes down to it, there is already incentive in the amount of experience you get if you use the upgrade method of building rather than building with steel from the start.

XP are nothing unique to building. You can get XP from many sources. For example selling items.

An incentive would be for example that you a get slightly more loot drops or a small boost on your loot stage.

 

[Riamus]

11 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

Funny that you mention it because, as you wrote before, there are builders that don't really want to loot.

And they don't have to.  Looting isn't required to build.  At least as long as someone provides materials to build with, but that's always going to be a requirement.

 

12 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

XP are nothing unique to building. You can get XP from many sources. For example selling items.

An incentive would be for example that you a get slightly more loot drops or a small boost on your loot stage.

XP from building can be very lucrative.  Not that it makes you higher level than others who quest but it keeps you relatively even.  If they also mine, which isn't uncommon, then the combined experience can be very good.

 

There's no reason for more loot for a builder who doesn't want to loot... but even if that wasn't the case, there's no reason to add such an incentive for building.  Let people do what they want.  No playstyle should get some special incentive.

[Wulf]

29 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

An incentive would be for example that you a get slightly more loot drops or a small boost on your loot stage.

 

Funnily enough, I believe that you get a lootstage bonus if you set up your base in a High Tier POI right now.

So technically you could argue you're incentivized to build your base in POI.

 

Correct me if i'm wrong.

[AlaricBalthi]

3 hours ago, RipClaw said:

Nevertheless, I have the impression that fewer and fewer players build a base and more and more fall back on prefabs.

 

Talking only about our group: we generally find some nice POI and build our base there. But as time goes by, the less there is left of the original as we upgrade, remove, decorate and add features and defenses to it. Usually in the ends there is nothing left but the overall shape. The POI only gives a nice starting point. Not uncommon that we build a brand new home base while it's being built.

 

Another thing is we never, and i mean that literally, take the hordes in our "home base" and instead build a dedicated "horde base" for the horde nights. Losing the "horde base" means not losing all the resources, workbenches and equipment. That means building even more! Sometimes into POI and sometimes into brand new one, just to try new stuff. It's completely feasible to build both brand new bases and bases into a POI in a single game.

[BFT2020]

I've done 3 iterations of building:

 

1. Take over a POI and reinforce it for hordes
2. Take over a ruined POI and build up a base on it (lot more involved compared to the first option, but less than the third option)
3. Build a base from scratch

 

Not incentivized to do any of the 3, it is just what I want to do in that playthrough.  We don't need a carrot to push people to build a specific way, it is up to them and what they want to do.  This is, for all purposes, a sandbox game; and it is up to the player on how they want to play this game.  If all they care about is min/max play, then that is how they will play.  If you want to put yourself in different (and not always the easy way) situations, then that is up to the player.

 

I prefer making my horde base my main base.  Keeping my benches / supplies safe from the horde makes it dull and sloppy.  Having to design a base to both house you and defend yourself makes it more challenging and fun (and I don't mind making a mistake that costs me resources / workstations, gives me an opportunity to see if I can recover).

[RipClaw]

33 minutes ago, Wulf said:

Funnily enough, I believe that you get a lootstage bonus if you set up your base in a High Tier POI right now.

So technically you could argue you're incentivized to build your base in POI.

That's what I thought afterwards. Then it would actually only be fair if a base that you build from scratch also gets a bonus.
 

[Riamus]

57 minutes ago, Wulf said:

 

Funnily enough, I believe that you get a lootstage bonus if you set up your base in a High Tier POI right now.

So technically you could argue you're incentivized to build your base in POI.

 

Correct me if i'm wrong.

I'd be interested in seeing where this is stated.  I've never heard of this and it really doesn't make much sense.  Lootstage is affected by biomes but shouldn't be affected by having a base in a specific POI.  After all, you know how easy it would be to just change the POI tier of any POI to tier 5 just to get a bonus?  That would be pretty poor design, imo.

[RipClaw]

6 minutes ago, Riamus said:

I'd be interested in seeing where this is stated.  I've never heard of this and it really doesn't make much sense.  Lootstage is affected by biomes but shouldn't be affected by having a base in a specific POI.  After all, you know how easy it would be to just change the POI tier of any POI to tier 5 just to get a bonus?  That would be pretty poor design, imo.

From the A20 Release Notes:

• Loot Progression Improvements include a new Loot Stage System, Biome and Tiered POI loot bonuses and early game balance

It is explained in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dB5-qcR5sEY&t=197s (from 3:17)

 

 

 

 

[BFT2020]

The only thing that affects would be the dropped bags from the zombies during horde night, and assuming that they drop inside the POI boundary.

 

Bases from scratch don't need a loot bonus to get people to build them.

[RipClaw]

8 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

The only thing that affects would be the dropped bags from the zombies during horde night, and assuming that they drop inside the POI boundary.

That is not the problem. For example, the parking lot of a hospital is part of the POI. If you build a small horde base there, you have the tier 5 loot bonus.

 

[Wulf]

That's right. Build a horde base in a empty part of a Tier5 POI and enjoy a higher lootstage when looting those bags after hordenight.

[Riamus]

1 hour ago, RipClaw said:

From the A20 Release Notes:

• Loot Progression Improvements include a new Loot Stage System, Biome and Tiered POI loot bonuses and early game balance

It is explained in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dB5-qcR5sEY&t=197s (from 3:17)

Ok, that's what you mean.  That really isn't a big deal as it only affects zombie loot bags that are typically not going to include much better loot from the loot stage bonus.  And even if you feel it does improve the loot bags significantly enough to matter, it is still not really an incentive to use a POI.  I certainly wouldn't even consider using a POI just for that reason.  I don't really care about the loot bags from horde night other than for the ammo replacement.

 

And in the end, it still comes down to what people enjoy doing.  If someone likes to build a base, they'll do so.  If they like to use a POI, they'll do so.  No incentives are necessary.  And even the loot stage bonus isn't meant as incentive for the POI as a base and is only a slight side effect of its main purpose.

[Roland]

I'm not sure what the fuss is here. I've been changing it up between building my own base and taking over POI's since Alpha 6. There have always been concrete and brick building that offer a solid start to any base. Even before there were traders it was common for people (who wanted to) to take over POI's and use them as base starters.

 

I do it in about the same ratio as I ever did before. If anything, the incentive that drove me to more often build a base from scratch was when traders could spawn in the wilderness and there were no nearby buildings. Rather than traveling from a more distant POI that I could convert, I found it more convenient to set up my own base nearby the trader. Before traders it was pretty much as whimsy took me and ever since traders have been mostly showing up in cities it is back to that practice depending on my mood.

 

I remember when there was a cabin that spawned with an almost guaranteed working forge inside of it. We almost always converted that cabin to our base so there was an incentive that went against creating our own from scratch. But then all workstations were spawned broken and I think that cabin is no longer in the game or is so changed I don't recognize it anyway....so that could be seen as an incentive to just build your own place from scratch.

 

I really don't see much change in how people are pushed or pulled to build from scratch or reinforce a POI. Seems to still be simply a matter of preference.

[Wulf]

Yeah same for me.

Thanks for bringing back memories of "Forge Ahead!" Roland At that time, i think most people went to certain POI's that had a high chance of a working Forge instead of trying to loot that book.

And when traders became a thing, soon after i started to build my base next to them. Really havent looked back after that, but that is a combination of learning to build my own POI faster/better (and more modular), and having a ingame incentive to do so (having a questgiver and trader right next door).

[zicky]

I have always liked building my own base and I'm sure I will continue to do so.  When the POI's had working forges, I usually at first, until I found the "Forge Ahead!" book or learned the perk to make forges, I used one of those POI's as bases.  I just like building and yes I'm one of those who misses the block upgrade progression.  I always fretted about will the cement dry before a horde showed up.  Anyway I can't wait to try out Alpha 21 and needing magazine loot or not, I'm going to build my base.

[Laz Man]

I like to think building a base from scratch is like building yourself a new house on a lot versus moving into a fixer upper that needs work.  Both can become great homes / bases but come with trade offs.

 

It definitely requires more resources to build from scratch but you have more freedom and less constraints (e.g. tearing down existing blocks, etc.)

 

It's great that both options are appealing in different ways and provide different experiences.  There is also nothing preventing a player from doing both in the same playthrough.  Isn't that grand? 😎

 

 

[Aldranon]

On a side note, and while we're waiting for A21...

 

Anyone want to become world famous?

Then explain how "Scary Barbie" exists!  Or better yet, WHAT it is!!

You can't call Scary Barbie a "Super Nova" as its thousands of times brighter than the brightest super nova ever recorded.

Also, the longest Super Nova lasted a couple of months, and "Scary Barbie" has been going on for years!  YEARS...