So I decided to track Sleeper volumes in Poi's and how many are ambushes.

[Roland]

2 minutes ago, Boidster said:

 

Hmm...I'm going to go poke into the code to see about this. From what I saw/posted earlier I don't actually think it works that way, but maybe. Everything I saw implied that it was always about "can the zombie hear you". There is no automatic, random, "roll vs. player's stealth skill" in there that I saw, but there is a fair amount of noobiness in my code-poking so I'll look at it again.

 

I'm pretty sure that it is only zombies who can make "skill checks" vs stealth. And it is never random. It is "was this sound above the threshold of hearing" or "is the player entity visible at X distance and with Y illumination". Maybe I'm arguing semantics, but when entering a volume the player doesn't "make a check" of any type. The zombies may get to make a check vs hearing or sight, but never the player.

I can also ask faatal for clarification. I'm pretty sure it is how he explained it but I could have misunderstood.

[Boidster]

2 minutes ago, NekoPawtato said:

So if I understand right, if a bunch of zombies wake up in a room and you throw a rock in the opposite direction, any zombies that are awake but don't detect you will run towards the rock and any zombies that are actively aggroing you will ignore the rock?

Just trying to see if there is a fast/easy way to discern between the two modes without waiting for them to walk all the way over to you

 

Possibly, yes. I'm not sure a zombie in the "ApproachDistraction" task (i.e. walking towards you where it heard a sound) will instantly change to a different "ApproachDistraction" (your rock), but it's worth testing. You can do it outside pretty easily by hiding behind something and firing a shot. Then throw a rock and watch the zombies who (presumably) are shambling towards you. I've used rocks to distract zombies, but never tried it that I can remember with already-distracted zombies.

 

One obvious way to notice is to change the walk/run speed of agro'd zombies. When they start jogging/running at you, you know they've got a lock.

1 minute ago, Roland said:

I can also ask faatal for clarification.

 

Name-dropper.  

[Roland]

6 minutes ago, Boidster said:

Possibly, yes. I'm not sure a zombie in the "ApproachDistraction" task (i.e. walking towards you where it heard a sound) will instantly change to a different "ApproachDistraction" (your rock), but it's worth testing. You can do it outside pretty easily by hiding behind something and firing a shot. Then throw a rock and watch the zombies who (presumably) are shambling towards you. I've used rocks to distract zombies, but never tried it that I can remember with already-distracted zombies.

 

You can also test it easily by throwing one rock and then throwing a second rock in a different direction. I believe they ignore the second rock until going to the first rock.

7 minutes ago, Boidster said:

Name-dropper.  

 

yep, and I sent him a link to this thread if he has time to look at it and clear up any misconception of mine or anyone else's. Maybe ya'll can fill two pages of ROLAND IS WRONG posts if and when faatal tells us the truth.

[hiemfire]

7 minutes ago, Roland said:

Maybe ya'll can fill two pages of ROLAND IS WRONG posts if and when faatal tells us the truth.

Tempting, but I'd get dinged for spam even if I was actually inclined to do so. 😆

[Boidster]

My (mis-)conception: the following is what determines if a sleeper can detect the player, and there is no RNG-based skill check going on when entering a volume.

 

[class PlayerStealth]

public bool CanSleeperAttackDetect(EntityAlive _e)
  {
    if (this.player.IsCrouching)
    {
      float num = Mathf.Lerp(3f, 15f, (float) (((double) this.lightAttackPercent - 0.349999994039536) * 1.53846156597137));
      if ((double) _e.GetDistance((Entity) this.player) > (double) num)
        return false;
    }
    return true;
  }

 

[theFlu]

19 minutes ago, Boidster said:

I'm not sure a zombie in the "ApproachDistraction" task (i.e. walking towards you where it heard a sound) will instantly change to a different "ApproachDistraction" (your rock), but it's worth testing

The noise-activated zeds seem to go with an "ApproachSpot", not "ApproachDistraction." Looks like they'll run to the spot first and then go after the distraction, but I should probably slow down my zeds to get a proper test, the timing for the throw is a little tight in the Crack-a-book ..

Edited February 2, 2022 by theFlu (see edit history)

[Alec101]

This vid explains it very well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-H2Iw5cFP6M

 

[Roland]

53 minutes ago, theFlu said:

Butt naked, no skills. Wouldn't have the patience to dance for a minute.

Wow. That is unexpected. Seems not to be working correctly. But if it is that is a huge boost for stealth. 🤔

[faatal]

There are two types of stealth checks that happen.

 

1 Continuous - A player stealth update calcs their light level, updates noises and sets themself as noise source on AI entities if they are the higher than other player's noise. AI checks players in their vision cone based on distance vs that player light and then target the player. The player noise on the AI, if above a threshold, will wake the AI. Noise will also make it investigate and do a vision check, which could cause it to see a closer player than the one that made the noise.

 

2 Triggering a sleeper volume - This happens once per AI based on stealth modified light level vs distance and only determines attack vs active. They will go active in any event and continuous stealth checks may hear or see you at any time after that.

[ElDudorino]

Sleepers that are designed to jump out of something don't do any checks other than the player appearing in their designated zone, do they? Like the ones in closets where you can flash a light off and on in their eyes and they don't move until you step in front of the closet.

[faatal]

26 minutes ago, Alec101 said:

This vid explains it very well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-H2Iw5cFP6M

 

The person who made the video did not notice he is in broad daylight when he tested the attack volumes, so yes they saw him as his stealth was horrible.

 

Not having shadows on also makes it hard to know when you are in sun or moon light!

11 minutes ago, ElDudorino said:

Sleepers that are designed to jump out of something don't do any checks other than the player appearing in their designated zone, do they? Like the ones in closets where you can flash a light off and on in their eyes and they don't move until you step in front of the closet.

They do the normal stealth checks and are actually worse at detecting you since they can only hear you and not see you. A sleeper in the open could see and hear you.

[Boidster]

49 minutes ago, faatal said:

There are two types of stealth checks that happen.

 

2 Triggering a sleeper volume - This happens once per AI based on stealth modified light level vs distance and only determines attack vs active. They will go active in any event and continuous stealth checks may hear or see you at any time after that.

 

To be clear, nothing in the sleeper volume check is RNG-based (with the possible exception of how the zombie might ragdoll out of its hiding spot), right? Also some sleepers will remain sleeping/passive (or there's a bug maybe). Is your description specifically for the sleepers set to 'attack' in the volume config? 'Cause in testing several sleepers remained happily sleeping in their closets even after shooting the door off when the player is well within the volume.

 

I interpreted that to mean only the Trigger Type=2 (attack) sleepers would definitely wake up and be at least in 'active' mode, if they couldn't see the player.

[Lord Shakaka]

I think a major problem are the zombies that either get triggered or appear within 5 meters of a player.  On a solo local game, it may work ok enough that a player could have a chance to react.   But in multiplayer games via server or Peer to Peer, sometimes the zombies appear after you as a player already got hit.  Reaction times in this case are null and void because the server has not relayed the information to the client in a timely manner.  This has happened to me on multiple occasions even in previous alphas regardless of how low my ping.   Any zombie triggers that are not a full-blown ambush, should not spawn or drop that close to the player.  This will lessen the feeling of players being ambushed when a trigger only (not an actual ambush in code) happens.

 

To combat the shooting/breaking a closet door and not alert a zombie deal, there should be penetrating shot for bows/crossbows.  I am not saying they can shoot through walls.  But should be able to shoot through a 'sheet' block.  Doing so if you miss the zombie, it will wake and come after you.  If you hit, then the player is awarded with a stealth kill.  Can be a later tier deal so as to reward players that skill into or have better equipment (as a stronger bow or crossbow other than first tier).

I think a major problem are the zombies that either get triggered or appear within 5 meters of a player.  On a solo local game, it may work ok enough that a player could have a chance to react.   But in multiplayer games via server or Peer to Peer, sometimes the zombies appear after you as a player already got hit.  Reaction times in this case are null and void because the server has not relayed the information to the client in a timely manner.  This has happened to me on multiple occasions even in previous alphas regardless of how low my ping.   Any zombie triggers that are not a full-blown ambush, should not spawn or drop that close to the player.  This will lessen the feeling of players being ambushed when a trigger only (not an actual ambush in code) happens.

 

To combat the shooting/breaking a closet door and not alert a zombie deal, there should be penetrating shot for bows/crossbows.  I am not saying they can shoot through walls.  But should be able to shoot through a 'sheet' block.  Doing so if you miss the zombie, it will wake and come after you.  If you hit, then the player is awarded with a stealth kill.  Can be a later tier deal so as to reward players that skill into or have better equipment (as a stronger bow or crossbow other than first tier).

[SenpaiThatIngnoresYou]

On 1/31/2022 at 6:42 AM, BarryTGash said:

When everything is an ambush nothing is an ambush (because you're expecting it).

 

They need to find a way to randomise them, eg. ~10% will be ambushes, so you can't know in advance. That will provide excitement and its own kind of difficulty (not through attrition, but through surprise).

 

I think that is in the works, including zombie patrols. 

The problem with randomized locations is the clear missions. Those will become even more difficult with the bigger pois. I do think they need to be revised a bit. 

But then, as i think about it, why are they asleep? how often do they fall asleep? Now that would be an interesting stealth mechanic, where if poi zombies lose sight of you they either go to a monster closet, a corner, sit down, lay down, or sleep in place. Now that would make pois more interesting, where if you make too much noise they will wake up and walk around, then go back to sleep. Like a shifting poi. 

[Boidster]

4 minutes ago, SenpaiThatIngnoresYou said:

Now that would be an interesting stealth mechanic, where if poi zombies lose sight of you they either go to a monster closet, a corner, sit down, lay down, or sleep in place.

 

I think maybe they do? I recall, I think, browsing around POIs but not killing anything and then exiting the area and coming back later to find the sleepers re-sleeping (and not due to a quest POI reset). When I was poking around in the code, I noticed this method on the EntityAlive class:

 

public void ResumeSleeperPose()
  {
    this.TriggerSleeperPose(this.lastSleeperPose);  -- puts the zombie back into its sleeping 'pose'.
    <...irrelevant stuff about syncing client/server...>
  }

 

And the only place that is called is in the "ApproachAndAttackTarget" AI code. Very abbreviated:

 

public override void Update()
  {
    if (this.hasHome && !this.isTargetToEat)  -- if the zombie has a 'home' and doesn't have a target to eat
    {

      <...some stuff about finding the path to 'home'...>
      if (!this.theEntity.IsSleeper)  -- not a sleeper? then do nothing more
          return;

      this.theEntity.ResumeSleeperPose();  -- is a sleeper? resume the sleeping pose

[Roland]

21 minutes ago, SenpaiThatIngnoresYou said:

 Now that would be an interesting stealth mechanic, where if poi zombies lose sight of you they either go to a monster closet, a corner, sit down, lay down, or sleep in place. Now that would make pois more interesting, where if you make too much noise they will wake up and walk around, then go back to sleep. Like a shifting poi. 

 

I suppose...seems to me that it would just result in once again clearing an entire POI by shooting sleeping targets. I guess for those who don't like the hidden zombies they could run through the POI and trigger everything and then retreat to wait for them to lie down and sleep in their new locations and then go back through and shoot each one while it slumbers-- maybe now with everything in plain view.

 

I guess that could be riveting gameplay for some.

[SenpaiThatIngnoresYou]

18 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

I suppose...seems to me that it would just result in once again clearing an entire POI by shooting sleeping targets. I guess for those who don't like the hidden zombies they could run through the POI and trigger everything and then retreat to wait for them to lie down and sleep in their new locations and then go back through and shoot each one while it slumbers-- maybe now with everything in plain view.

 

I guess that could be riveting gameplay for some.

 

Drone bullhorn mod

 

You send the drone in, you say "wake the place up" then you wait for it to come back and it will tell you how many zombies it saw in the poi. The caveat is have ferals stay awake and chase it out. 

 

I mean if you are smart enough to make shock batons, a jeep from scratch, and a talking drone; then you should be smart enough to find alternatives to sneaking into a place, or better ways to clear a poi. 

[Boidster]

I like the idea of them not going back to their original locations to sleep. So maybe you get chased out and hide for a while, but when you come back they're not all just out in the open (which as Roland points out would not be all that interesting), but maybe the bathroom which was empty before now has a sleeper in it. And the one on the living room floor is now behind the counter in the kitchen. The sleeper volumes already allow for multiple (randomized) spawn points so that a POI won't be identical on each playthrough. Would be neat if the sleepers could just pick one of the spots and go to sleep there. Oh, and have them rebuild the closet doors too so they're hidden again.  

[BFT2020]

3 hours ago, Boidster said:

 

 

Can you also make it do a popup message saying "DM says to roll a D20."

 

Don't tie it into any specific, just a random message that makes the player think they have a chance to roll a die to avoid being detected  😉

 

[theFlu]

I've been messing around in a few POIs, warehouse_06 turned out to be a good spot to test out an attack volume.

tppoi brings you to the front door, the volume of interest is the small break room in the opposite corner, the first zeds in the POI.

 

The zeds in that room spawn in when I walk across the yellow line outside.

 

They will agro 100% of the time when I sneak up the one block staircase towards their break room. Not even stealth level of 1 in the meter allows me to avoid agro. The zeds are showing light at about 3.3 at that point in the debug info.
Once agroed, they sprint at me at full speed. With the task ApproachAndAttackTarget

 

First I noticed I can drop their agro by doing a loop outside, leading them out, running a circle around them and then running back inside, crouching once back up in front of the break room. Takes less than 10 seconds, nowhere near a minute at least. Any faffing about can make them not drop agro, but the agro drop is quite repeatable. Can't say it isn't abusing line of sight, it probably is; but the 90 sec timer doesn't have time to count down.

 

Then I just did a loop in the parking lot with both zeds coming in agroed, was able to drop agro from both on the flat parking lot 3/3 tries. It's quite a dance, but perfectly repeatable. No LoS abuse there.

 

Additional info: A20.1 b6, navezgane, no relevant skills or gear, free use of sleeperreset and killall -commands. I haven't tested resetting the POI, changing the world or the save, so if any of those effect the spawns/mechanics/other_rng, I won't know.

For my opinion of it... it feels a bit bad. They'll come at you regardless of your stealth display being at 1, and the way to avoid getting hit is a silly dance routine on a parking lot. I don't want the stealth gameplay to be popping sleepyheads, but this specific version is rather the opposite. The sleepyheads are popping you just for existing.

 

EDIT_1: I did take out a light source or two at the entrance area, at least one above the door; so if one can't get to stealth 1 at the stairs, that might be the reason.

Edited February 3, 2022 by theFlu (see edit history)

[PinkLed5]

On 1/31/2022 at 4:00 AM, Scyris said:

there is a serious problem in a20 with almost every sleeper volume being a ambush of GPSing zombies, making stealth completly useless

 

Stealth is the only way I play.  I'm on day 120 and I'm still using the crossbow and wearing cloth armor.  Stealth is faaaaar from useless.  True, when exploring a new PoI I have to learn where the ambushing zombies are, but half the fun of stealthing, at least for me, is figuring out how to take down those zombies without triggering them.  It's kinda like a puzzle, and I like it.  I can stealth the majority of the PoIs in this game now without triggering many zombies.  My goal is zero for each PoI, and that's what keeps me interested and challenged.

[Boidster]

9 hours ago, Roland said:

Maybe a modlet that reduces all light hp to 1 would be cool

 

Aaand I'm back. New modlet, "Boid's Lights Out", available here: https://www.nexusmods.com/7daystodie/mods/1819?tab=files

 

It allows you to shoot out lights once you reach level 2 in From the Shadows. Localization of the new perk benefit for English and Korean. What I mean by "allows you" is that your arrows/bullets get massive damage bonus towards POI lights. One-shot kill with any projectile. Works on lanterns and flashlights and all that as well.

Edited February 3, 2022 by Boidster (see edit history)

[PinkLed5]

[Deleted by user]

Edited February 3, 2022 by PinkLed5
I'm dumb (see edit history)

[meganoth]

13 hours ago, theFlu said:

I've been messing around in a few POIs, warehouse_06 turned out to be a good spot to test out an attack volume.

tppoi brings you to the front door, the volume of interest is the small break room in the opposite corner, the first zeds in the POI.

 

The zeds in that room spawn in when I walk across the yellow line outside.

 

They will agro 100% of the time when I sneak up the one block staircase towards their break room. Not even stealth level of 1 in the meter allows me to avoid agro. The zeds are showing light at about 3.3 at that point in the debug info.
Once agroed, they sprint at me at full speed. With the task ApproachAndAttackTarget

 

This might be working as intended. With you having not a single point in stealth even basic zombies should reliably detect you. Interesting would be what happens if you now put 1 or 2 points into the perk. Could be similar to the change of Living of the Land, there the threshold for using farming "professionally" was changed to 1.

 

13 hours ago, theFlu said:

 

First I noticed I can drop their agro by doing a loop outside, leading them out, running a circle around them and then running back inside, crouching once back up in front of the break room. Takes less than 10 seconds, nowhere near a minute at least. Any faffing about can make them not drop agro, but the agro drop is quite repeatable. Can't say it isn't abusing line of sight, it probably is; but the 90 sec timer doesn't have time to count down.

 

I agree this looks strange. It begs the question in what situations the timer actually makes a difference

 

13 hours ago, theFlu said:

Then I just did a loop in the parking lot with both zeds coming in agroed, was able to drop agro from both on the flat parking lot 3/3 tries. It's quite a dance, but perfectly repeatable. No LoS abuse there.

 

Additional info: A20.1 b6, navezgane, no relevant skills or gear, free use of sleeperreset and killall -commands. I haven't tested resetting the POI, changing the world or the save, so if any of those effect the spawns/mechanics/other_rng, I won't know.

For my opinion of it... it feels a bit bad. They'll come at you regardless of your stealth display being at 1, and the way to avoid getting hit is a silly dance routine on a parking lot. I don't want the stealth gameplay to be popping sleepyheads, but this specific version is rather the opposite. The sleepyheads are popping you just for existing.

 

EDIT_1: I did take out a light source or two at the entrance area, at least one above the door; so if one can't get to stealth 1 at the stairs, that might be the reason.

 

[theFlu]

I'm back in warehouse_06, testing the rest of the POI. I think some QA-eyes might be needed for the POI, I just don't have a clue what to report about it. @Laz Man?

 

For now, having mostly tested the ground floor of the POI; the behaviour has repeated for everything except one heavy drinker at the far end of the ground floor.

(As I described above in https://community.7daystodie.com/topic/27522-so-i-decided-to-track-sleeper-volumes-in-pois-and-how-many-are-ambushes/?do=findComment&comment=471522 )

 

Everything activates with my stealth meter at 1, and whenever they activate, none of them are "just active", they're all coming at me.
(Goes against what faatal described above)
(Then again, for all I know, could just be an issue with the stealth meter giving too little info at the low end. But I am looking at the Light: 3.3 in the debug info as well)

 

I can drop agro in direct line of sight now. The condition? Give the zeds *actual* agro. Once an auto-agro zed is after you, pull out a torch, step out of stealth - let him see you. Put the torch away, step back into stealth, observe the zed lose you. This removes the 90 sec counter. Easily testable with walking zeds in the night.
(This feels like a bug, but might be an obscure feature just as well)

14 minutes ago, meganoth said:

This might be working as intended. With you having not a single point in stealth even basic zombies should reliably detect you.

Sure, but in that case, the stealth meter is useless.