A20 Infection Issue

[InterDan]

There's a lot that I like about the changes to looting in A20. As intended, the scarcity gives the pipe weapons time to shine, and it extends the early phases of the game where survival is precarious. That stage is the bread and butter of a survival game, so that's very good news! The change I object to is the nerfing of anti-infection drops.
On my current playthrough I'm on day 15 and I've never seen antibiotics, herbal or otherwise. One infection, I missed the early window where honey is curative and had to let play it out until I got mobbed by dogs and died. It was a massive relief to not have to deal with the stamina debuff any more, I was so glad to have died. Next time I got an infection, I spent all night searching through the woods around my starting town for honey. I went through a dozen stumps and by the time I found a jar of honey, I needed a second one. Future infections, I think I'll have to just jump off a tall building, eat the XP loss and save the time spent looking for honey. If the optimal play in your survival game is to die, that's not good game design!
I've read the A20 release notes and I understand this change was made to make infection scary again. The problem is that it hurts the game.
Post-infection, you have three options:
-Spiral search pattern around the woods looking for stumps, not fun or sustainable and won't get you enough honey fast enough
-Desperate looting in town as your stamina debuff gets worse, making even breaking into buildings annoying
-RIP, eat the XP loss, make up for it by not spending the next few days with a stamina debuff that makes it harder to gain XP

Long-term, you have three options to get around this:
-Hope to get lucky and loot a herbal antibiotics recipe
-Upgrade to 20.1 for the acid, pick an Int build, and hope to find a beaker for chemistry bench. Suffer in the meantime
-Play multiplayer with someone who made an Int build

This has become a novel, so

TLDR; current loot table locks you into Int for Level 5 physician, in the meantime being infected constantly is painful, and not in a fun way

[asmosnuts]

   Found one herbal in 23 days, trader selling antibiotics and a few jars honey. Havent noticed any real increase in difficulty, i usually try to find honey in the first couple days. Still plenty vitamins about to help.

Some of the larger pois are now much more challenging  and ferals are everywhere, something to note when hunting supplies.

[meganoth]

It seems infections are greatly reduced by better armor, you also find more honey/antibiotics in loot, quest rewards, trader, with better vehicles you see more stumps....

So in mid game that problem solves itself without you doing anything special (no INT needed at all).

 

BUT early game I agree that the mild death penalty and missing alternatives pushes players to cheese. A solution would be for the trader to always have some cure around but at a premium price (just like GPU prices in reality).

 

That is sort of a small problem as sell/buy at the trader is a fixed ratio and if you increase price and the item can be looted or even worse produced then it could be used to make money endlessly. Solutions could be:

 

1) trader always has antibiotics but they are much more expensive and crafted with acid bottles as ingredient

 

2) There is a special pill for sale at the trader not available as loot or craftable that cures infection

 

3) There is a trader service to cure anything for a substantial fee. Just another option in his interface (similar to the temple/church services in typical fantasy games)

 

4) trader always has very expensive honey for sale, but make tree stumps scarce over time.

 

 

[JCrook1028]

9 hours ago, InterDan said:

Next time I got an infection, I spent all night searching through the woods around my starting town for honey.

So you went thru an infection once, then when you started anew you didn't immediately make finding honey a priority? You waited until you got infected again to go looking for it? Self inflicted suffering seems to me...

[InterDan]

6 hours ago, JCrook1028 said:

So you went thru an infection once, then when you started anew you didn't immediately make finding honey a priority? You waited until you got infected again to go looking for it? Self inflicted suffering seems to me...

It's called 7 Days to Die, not 7 Days to @%$# Around In The Forest. Any time spent grinding for honey is a) not fun and b) takes away from time preparing for horde night, which you desperately need.

[ChickenWings]

Traders are my friend, they routinely restock both honey and antibiotics.   Those little farm stands will have honey to loot from time to time as well.   Vending machines, fridges as well.

 

If I don't have honey or antibiotics on me, I basically avoid zombies until I do.  Because the best way to find honey is when you don't need it, but when you do need it, it's nowhere to be found!

 

I think there is something to be said for better armor reducing infection.   In A19 I was complete padded armor, but in A20 I now use none of it, instead going to slower iron/scrap iron setup.   Up to day 28 now surviving in the wasteland, and I have 5 honeys and 4 antibiotics.  No stumps in the wasteland (or extremely rare)  I check the trader every day, most of my infection fixes come from the trader.  But honestly, I don't get infected that often, way less than when I was in A19.

 

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by ChickenWings (see edit history)

[JCrook1028]

16 hours ago, InterDan said:

It's called 7 Days to Die, not 7 Days to @%$# Around In The Forest. Any time spent grinding for honey is a) not fun and b) takes away from time preparing for horde night, which you desperately need.

So you'd rather "@%$#" around in the forest AFTER getting infected than before. Ok, your choice. Just realize that fact, it IS a choice YOU made.

 

ps. it doesn't take any special trips to the forest, simply keep your eyes open while naturally walking around.

[theFlu]

There's also plenty of options pre-infection;

- Don't get hit. "But I .." Well, you'll be risking infection.

- Keep your health maxed, crits - including infection - shouldn't be happening on the first hit. Boiled meat gives 15 health, that's half a bandage with a snack.

- If desperate, put a point into brawling to eliminate the infection ability. No-one's that desperate, but it's an option.

- Find the level of cheese you're comfortable with and go beyond your comfort zone... block doorways, build tiny towers, climb walls, use mollies thru doors. To not get hit.

[BFT2020]

You don't have to spend all the time in the forests hunting for honey, but you should always tear down any stumps you see to try and get a source.

 

If you haven't had any luck getting honey from tree stumps while you are out and about, then always check the trader stock to see if they are selling any.  If they are and you haven't found any, you should buy it as backup.

[Rotor]

2 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

You don't have to spend all the time in the forests hunting for honey, but you should always tear down any stumps you see to try and get a source.

  

 

D79 always wondered what stumps were for.  I always thought wood but it would be too little to bother heh.  Now I know.

[JamesKirk]

On 1/30/2022 at 7:36 AM, InterDan said:

On my current playthrough I'm on day 15 and I've never seen antibiotics, herbal or otherwise. One infection, I missed the early window where honey is curative and had to let play it out until I got mobbed by dogs and died.

One can use more than one dose of honey. Each dose cures 5%. Just tested it on Friday😂

[PoloPoPo]

Infections feel well balanced now. In the early game they are uncomfortable to deal with and also in the mid game you should not get infected too often or your meds will eventually run out.

 

Can't agree with the topic starter. If you invest enough time you will end up with enough honey from tree stumps to cure the infection. Also it takes lots of days until honey kills you, in the meantime you can loot dozens of buildings. Most of the time you should find something useful there or from the trader(s).

 

There is always the option to die and face the rather irrelevant XP loss. But seriously, it would never come to my mind to accept death as a valid option to "solve" a problem. Even if I had to spend horde night unpreparedly in the hospital I'd use every second I have left to look for antibiotics before the infection kills me. That being said, I have never died to an infection ever in 7D2D.

[BFT2020]

1 hour ago, Rotor said:

  

 

D79 always wondered what stumps were for.  I always thought wood but it would be too little to bother heh.  Now I know.

 

One key thing is that honey drops has been reduced from tree stumps.  In A19, it was 40% chance and now it is 20%.  That's still higher than the chance you get of a honey drop from all trees after you find the wasteland treasures book.

[Rotor]

50 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

 That's still higher than the chance you get of a honey drop from all trees after you find the wasteland treasures book.

Saw that book at vendor, should I have bought it? 😕

[BFT2020]

1 hour ago, Rotor said:

Saw that book at vendor, should I have bought it? 😕

If you chop a lot of trees, yes.  It only gives you a 5 percent chance on regular trees, but doesn't change anything for the tree stumps.

 

oh and a secret.......

 

Spoiler

Tree stumps in POIs that allow objects to be placed on top of them still have the 40% drop rate for honey - not sure how long this is going to stay  😉

 

[InterDan]

8 hours ago, JCrook1028 said:

So you'd rather "@%$#" around in the forest AFTER getting infected than before. Ok, your choice. Just realize that fact, it IS a choice YOU made.

 

ps. it doesn't take any special trips to the forest, simply keep your eyes open while naturally walking around.

No, I'd rather play a game with better loot tables so I don't have to spend all my time searching for tree stumps. This is an *alpha*, that means the devs look for feedback and make changes to improve it. It's an alpha of a *game*, that means it should be *fun*. Hence this thread.

[Sal]

On 1/30/2022 at 5:38 PM, InterDan said:

Any time spent grinding for honey is a) not fun and b) takes away from time preparing for horde night,

I always find them pretty easily and I don't necessarily don't go looking for them either.

 

One, I always get a tier 1 job that takes you to a honey farm(?) with about 6 tree stumps located on the property. Two, when I'm traveling I stop at almost every stump I come across (it only takes a few hits, even from a low level axe) and it's well worth the 30-45 seconds--even less with a wood splitter mod which are everywhere.

 

JMO.

[InterDan]

6 hours ago, PoloPoPo said:

Also it takes lots of days until honey kills you, in the meantime you can loot dozens of buildings. Most of the time you should find something useful there or from the trader(s).

The whole point of this thread is that you don't. Antibiotics do not spawn, and honey doesn't spawn often enough to be sustainable. You just move slower, hit slower, and overall have a worse experience until it gets you killed.
 

 

6 hours ago, PoloPoPo said:

But seriously, it would never come to my mind to accept death as a valid option to "solve" a problem.

That is absolutely my point. If you can't find loot antibiotics and can't buy them from traders, killing yourself is the optimal response to infection. You make up the lost XP by not suffering under under a stamina debuff for the next X days, and you get your base in better condition for horde night. Deliberately not surviving should never be the optimal play in a survival game.

6 hours ago, JamesKirk said:

One can use more than one dose of honey. Each dose cures 5%. Just tested it on Friday

Yeah, if you can find another dose of honey before your infection grows 5%. My experience has been, you can't.

[asmosnuts]

         Wow it takes so little time to find honey and its not like infection is a fast death. It is ,after all, a survival game. You should try the alpha where stepping off a kerb broke your leg! Slow doesnt even begin to describe it.

   It really isnt that big of a problem.

[JCrook1028]

14 hours ago, InterDan said:

No, I'd rather play a game with better loot tables so I don't have to spend all my time searching for tree stumps. This is an *alpha*, that means the devs look for feedback and make changes to improve it. It's an alpha of a *game*, that means it should be *fun*. Hence this thread.

Yep, make everything easy to find so nothing has any consequences! No thank you.

[Boidster]

Don't just chop up stumps. Though they have the best % chance per individual block, you can increase your odds of finding honey in X minutes by searching for medical supplies. Honey is part of "Common Medical Supplies" with the same drop chance as splints. Raid a Pop-N-Pills or two and it's likely you'll come away with honey, if not antibiotics. You can search 20 shelves/cabinets much faster than running around to find 10 or 20 stumps. The loot for these are not scaled by lootstage - a level 1 player has same chance as level 100.

Edited February 1, 2022 by Boidster (see edit history)

[seagas]

16 hours ago, Sal said:

I always find them pretty easily and I don't necessarily don't go looking for them either.

 

One, I always get a tier 1 job that takes you to a honey farm(?) with about 6 tree stumps located on the property. Two, when I'm traveling I stop at almost every stump I come across (it only takes a few hits, even from a low level axe) and it's well worth the 30-45 seconds--even less with a wood splitter mod which are everywhere.

 

JMO.

Just like birds nests, early game, good source of feathers for arrows and eggs. Late game, I'm still checking them for eggs.

 

[PoloPoPo]

18 hours ago, InterDan said:

The whole point of this thread is that you don't. Antibiotics do not spawn, and honey doesn't spawn often enough to be sustainable. You just move slower, hit slower, and overall have a worse experience until it gets you killed.

And my whole point of my post was that you do find antibiotics or honey if you invest enough time. I have never said it is easy but the way you describe the situation is completely exaggerated.

 

I have started a new savegame yesterday, after I have posted the above. And guess what, my initial trader offers antibiotics for around 600 Dukes if I remember correctly. Certainly you will say now "well, lucky for you, my trader does not" and you are right with that. A single game isn't a valid sample size. But maybe 1 out of 10 savegames happen to have antibiotics in the initial trader stash. And another 1 out of 10 savegames there is an antibiotic in the trader stash after restock day 4. And in 1 out of 10 savegames there is a Pop'n'Pills hospital in your initial city where you can find antibiotics kind of reliable. And in another 1 out of 10 savegames there are smaller medical POIs that could offer antibiotics. And in another 1 out of 10 savegames you are lucky and find antibiotics in a random med cabinet. In another savegame you find a second trader. And so on... And for the remaining savegames you need to go out in the forest and check tree stumps for honey.

 

There is a good amount of opportunities to get honey / antibiotics from in nearly every savegame. When worse comes to worse you might not be able to find anything like that for days but even then you have like 7 days until an infection finally kills you (if it is still 7 days, don't know).

 

Still not saying that finding antibiotics is easy, I think it is tough but kind of nicely balanced. I always try to not get infected (of course) but if it happens I know where to look for countermeasures and I am very confident that I'd be successful with that before I'd die.

 

Edit:
Continued my savegame, day 3, just found one of those green antibiotic herbs in an ambulance car.

Edited February 1, 2022 by PoloPoPo (see edit history)

[ElCabong]

I think you're just having bad luck finding the honey. I've had this happen to me in the past. I know just how you feel too. It was a relief to die.

 

I started a new game yesterday and I have four bottles of honey and only needed to use it once. I've looted a couple of honey jars, got a few from stumps and bought one from the trader. This is normal. I usually find plenty of honey.

 

Seems like every time I play the game there's always one thing I want that is scarce. 

 

 

 

[ChickenWings]

19 hours ago, asmosnuts said:

         Wow it takes so little time to find honey and its not like infection is a fast death. It is ,after all, a survival game. You should try the alpha where stepping off a kerb broke your leg! Slow doesnt even begin to describe it.

   It really isnt that big of a problem.

 

Oh dear god I remember those days, and having to crawl around you were praying for a zombie to find you and kill you 🙂

2 hours ago, ElCabong said:

I think you're just having bad luck finding the honey. I've had this happen to me in the past. I know just how you feel too. It was a relief to die.

 

I started a new game yesterday and I have four bottles of honey and only needed to use it once. I've looted a couple of honey jars, got a few from stumps and bought one from the trader. This is normal. I usually find plenty of honey.

 

Seems like every time I play the game there's always one thing I want that is scarce. 

 

 

 

Yeah it's very rng for me now on the honey.   I've gotten 2 in a row, and then can't even buy one.

Edited February 1, 2022 by ChickenWings (see edit history)