we need a primitive source of light in the early game.

[Kyonshi]

8 hours ago, BarryTGash said:

How about the same caveats as every other game that allows dual wielding: you can only hold something in your off hand if the item in your primary hand is one-handed (clubs, stone axe, iron pick, wrenches, knives). Not rocket science and certainly not a hyperbole magnet.

Of course i know this damn well... I was asking him. Dual wield isnt gonna happen anyways, the Pimps said it once during a stream. There's already an independent light source and in the meantime if you dont have it, you either deal with it, bring up creative mode to give yourself the light or mod the game yourself to provide another alternative.

Edited January 29, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)

[BarryTGash]

1 hour ago, Laz Man said:

Early survival shouldn't be about convenience

 

You say that but that's going against human nature and I think that's the crux of the issue.

 

Having a more tiered progression would be something: torch -> flashlight + duct tape mod* -> uber solar-powered helmet light mod.

 

* car batteries show that a depleting resource is possible. Have a modified version, the aaa battery that can only be looted for instance, add two mod slots to the flashlight for two aaa batteries. Allow a simple mod to be created of flashlight + duct tape but make it so goddamned awful (dim/low range, flickering + the need for batteries and perhaps even have it flicker and shut off every couple of minutes at random so you've got to turn it on again for some real potential horror moments) so you're effectively trading the effectiveness (brightness) of the torch for the convenience of a handsfree light source as an alternative and/or interim tier before the helmet light mod (and push that further up in loot stage). You could even allow it to be duct tape-able to a weapon so it acts as an interim tier for the weapon light mod.

[Laz Man]

23 hours ago, Roland said:

 

While I agree with the principle of working for what you get, I think you are being a bit harsh here in response to a suggestion for a primitive hands free light source. It wouldn't be as game breaking or OP as some of the sarcastic parallels you drew would be. Since you can throw down a torch pretty much any time you want, it wouldn't be much of a game changer to have a torch that can be lashed on anyways. Lighten up a bit Kyonshi. If the OP was actually asking for an Uber or a catering service then I could see  your response being fitting. But a primitive hands-free light that will be obsoleted pretty quickly as soon as the first helmet light mod is found? That's not really worth all your effort here.

 

Be nice!

 

Good point.  However, if more light options get added, it would be nice to have some progression with them all.

 

Maybe something like this could be an improvement.

 

Hand Held:

Tier 0 - Candle (low illumination)

Tier 1 - Torch (medium illumination)

Tier 2 - Flashlight (high illumination)

 

And / Or

 

Helmet Mods:

Tier 0 - lantern attachment (low illumination)

Tier 1 - Flashlight attachment (medium illumination)

Tier 2 - NVG attachment (high illumination)

 

Edit: I like the idea of batteries/fuel but left them off since it would probably act similar to food spoilage which had been previously ruled out in past discussions.

Edited January 29, 2022 by Laz Man (see edit history)

[Roland]

I liked @hiemfire's tin can and candle primitive miner light for the tier 0.

 

Here's the thing though. In Alpha 20 I have really noticed the effect that light has on our stealth meter. Often zombies run right past me at night if I am crouching (my family didn't want to play feral mode...). Does a brand new vulnerable player really want to strap what amounts to a dinner bell on their head? We might not be able to see very well but with no light source attached to us we are all but invisible to zombies at night if we are being careful. Seems safer with no light until we get more defensive and offensive gear which usually coincides closer with finding a light mod for the helmet. A primitive hands free light mod may just have some unintended consequences for brand new players....

[Jost Amman]

@OP: this is how a real man crafts a primitive light source! 

 

Spoiler

 

 

[gurutar]

10 hours ago, PoloPoPo said:

 

Your suggestion looks nice and could fit in the overall setting, however, I don't think it is needed. You don't have to stay in your base at night. What is stopping you from taking a torch and going outside? If that is too inconvenient for you and you always want good sight I'd rather give myself a helmet light mod from creative menu instead of turning up brightness which looks ugly.

 

Being able to have good vision at night is one of the early game's struggles and part of the survival aspect. Have you ever tried to play without helmet light mod deliberately? I did and it is a worthwile experience. Only light sources that are designed inside POIs and flashlight / torch outside gives the game a completely new character. Much more scary, also more difficult and as the lighting was done very well by the devs the game looks much better as well at night /inside POIs if you as me. Only did that once with one of my savegames as the constant struggle for good vision gets also annoying eventually on the other hand.

 

well everyone has a different way of getting around not being able to see at night. as you can see in this thread, the common way is to throw sticky torches all over the place. people don't play the game in the dark in the early game, and since the prevailing way of getting around the darkness is pretty silly and immersion-breaking, i figure why not let players have a more realistic feeling way to do it.

 

4 hours ago, Laz Man said:

 

 

Early survival shouldn't be about convenience imo.  We need progression up to the helmet light mod imo.

 

I'm sure some folks would even like light sources not lasting forever.

the thing about this game is everyone sets their own difficulty. some people like very slow progression and will turn loot down and difficulty up. some people want a relaxed experience and will make it so zombies can only walk. and as i said earlier, people don't play in the dark, they throw torches everywhere. i figure, why not have the option to have a light source in the early game. people who don't like it don't have to use it, but there are players like me who will just turn the brightness up so they don't have to throw torches everywhere. maybe i'm in the minority on that, and if people don't have a problem with the way things are now, then we can just let it be. maybe i'll make a mod for myself like has been suggested.

[Viktoriusiii]

On 1/28/2022 at 9:49 PM, Crater Creator said:

Starting the game with a drone with a light mod would be skipping over too much of the tech progression for me.  To get a similar effect (if you're going to cheat anyway), you could give yourself a burning shaft mod and add it to your main weapon.  The effect on lighting is the same as if you held a torch in one hand and the weapon in the other.  In fact, since we have burning shaft mods for weapons, I think you could modify the xml to duplicate the effect with a chest armor mod, like the OP suggests.

I think that was just a rib on how absolutely useless the drone is.
That even as a first day item it sucks too much to be actually useful

[PoloPoPo]

7 hours ago, gurutar said:

 

people don't play the game in the dark in the early game, and since the prevailing way of getting around the darkness is pretty silly and immersion-breaking, i figure why not let players have a more realistic feeling way to do it.

Maybe I didn't get that correctly but why is it silly and immersion-breaking going out at night with a torch or a flashlight?

 

Personally, I always go out at night, even at day 1, if not for looting then at least for getting some wood / stone. I don't even need any kind of light source as the devs made night much more brighter with the update from A18 to A19 (if I remember correctly). Even on standard brightness settings at midnight without any source of light you can still see enough to survive. I liked the old setting much better where nighttime actually was close to complete darkness and going out without a torch was impossible.

Edited January 30, 2022 by PoloPoPo (see edit history)

[BarryTGash]

10 hours ago, Roland said:

unintended consequences for brand new players

 

They'll learn and then they won't be brand new any more so any complications or consequences specifically avoided for a brand new player's benefit shouldn't really interfere with the gaming experience of everyone else. I've said before, paraphrasing: bring new players up to speed, don't lower the speed limit for everyone else especially considering new players vs existing players is probably around the 5-8% mark (real rough estimation, TFP probably have a better grasp on this).

 

If brand new players really need more hand-holding then maybe the tutorial quest needs revamping and/or preferably, a tutorial map be created that guides that player through their first encounters with zombies and their mechanics.

 

Edited January 30, 2022 by BarryTGash (see edit history)

[Roland]

2 minutes ago, BarryTGash said:

 

They'll learn and then they won't be brand new any more so any complications or consequences specifically avoided for a brand new player's benefit shouldn't really interfere with the gaming experience of everyone else. I've said before, paraphrasing: bring new players up to speed, don't lower the speed limit for everyone else especially considering new players vs existing players is probably around the 5-8% mark (real rough estimation, TFP probably have a better grasp on this).

 

If brand new players really need more hand-holding then maybe the tutorial quest needs revamping and/or preferably, a tutorial map be created that guides that player through their first encounters with zombies and their senses.

okay. I didn’t advocate for hand-holding but okay. 
 

I made a joke about wearing a primitive day one light source on your head and going out into the night. That’s all. I’m all for noobs learning stuff the hard way. 😀

[gurutar]

4 hours ago, PoloPoPo said:

Maybe I didn't get that correctly but why is it silly and immersion-breaking going out at night with a torch or a flashlight?

 

Personally, I always go out at night, even at day 1, if not for looting then at least for getting some wood / stone. I don't even need any kind of light source as the devs made night much more brighter with the update from A18 to A19 (if I remember correctly). Even on standard brightness settings at midnight without any source of light you can still see enough to survive. I liked the old setting much better where nighttime actually was close to complete darkness and going out without a torch was impossible.

going outside with a torch is fine. crafting 15 torches and throwing a dozen of them at the wall so they stick is silly and immersion breaking. when you're outside you definitely have enough light to get by, but going inside is a different story, hence why people craft 15 torches. this seems to be the prevailing method of seeing at night, and i just think it's crap.

[JCrook1028]

6 hours ago, BarryTGash said:

 

They'll learn and then they won't be brand new any more so any complications or consequences specifically avoided for a brand new player's benefit shouldn't really interfere with the gaming experience of everyone else. I've said before, paraphrasing: bring new players up to speed, don't lower the speed limit for everyone else especially considering new players vs existing players is probably around the 5-8% mark (real rough estimation, TFP probably have a better grasp on this).

 

If brand new players really need more hand-holding then maybe the tutorial quest needs revamping and/or preferably, a tutorial map be created that guides that player through their first encounters with zombies and their mechanics.

 

So you don't want the "speed limit" lowered but yet you want an easy mode Day 1 light source added?

[Laz Man]

3 hours ago, gurutar said:

going outside with a torch is fine. crafting 15 torches and throwing a dozen of them at the wall so they stick is silly and immersion breaking. when you're outside you definitely have enough light to get by, but going inside is a different story, hence why people craft 15 torches. this seems to be the prevailing method of seeing at night, and i just think it's crap.

 

Not so much immersion breaking as mounting a torch on something is believable but rather gameplay breaking.

 

Being able to mount a torch on anything pretty much allows players to easily circumvent the trade off with holding a torch in your hand as a light source instead of a true weapon.

 

Considering torches and flash lights can be used as weapons suggests at least some type of situational decision making opportunity.

 

For example, do I use this torch/flashlight for increased visibility at the expense at having less damage and being detected more easily?

 

This decision is made less impactful since torches can be mounted / picked up with relatively low cost.

 

 

[Kyonshi]

7 hours ago, gurutar said:

going outside with a torch is fine. crafting 15 torches and throwing a dozen of them at the wall so they stick is silly and immersion breaking. when you're outside you definitely have enough light to get by, but going inside is a different story, hence why people craft 15 torches. this seems to be the prevailing method of seeing at night, and i just think it's crap.

And turning up the brightness way up to be able to see during night, when you're not supposed to see @%$# (unless there's a full moon) isnt immersion breaking at all, noooo xD

Nobody crafts 15 torches and carry them around... dunno where you get this. Maybe 2-3, but you're just exaggerating with 15 and this doesnt push your point into any kind of sense.

Alright go ahead and put another thumbs down now lol.

[BFT2020]

I normally don't craft any, I just grab a few as I loot POIs.  And the amount I usually carry is 3 for a POU.  If I have more than that, it is usually because I am bringing them back to light up my base.

[gurutar]

9 hours ago, Laz Man said:

 

Not so much immersion breaking as mounting a torch on something is believable but rather gameplay breaking.

 

Being able to mount a torch on anything pretty much allows players to easily circumvent the trade off with holding a torch in your hand as a light source instead of a true weapon.

 

Considering torches and flash lights can be used as weapons suggests at least some type of situational decision making opportunity.

 

For example, do I use this torch/flashlight for increased visibility at the expense at having less damage and being detected more easily?

 

This decision is made less impactful since torches can be mounted / picked up with relatively low cost.

 

 

are you saying you'd rather do away with the ability to mount torches anywhere you want? it becomes a moot point as soon as you acquire the book that allows you to craft helmet light mods, the schematic or a mod itself, and that could easily be very early. to me, needing to make that decision of whether to carry light in exchange for using a mediocre weapon isn't worth much, and i don't find whacking zombies for an unreasonable amount of time to be fun, which is why i never play on anything above Warrior.

 

[BarryTGash]

12 hours ago, JCrook1028 said:

So you don't want the "speed limit" lowered but yet you want an easy mode Day 1 light source added?

 

Argumentative. I never said that. Day 1, torches are fine. I made a suggestion earlier in this thread for another tier of light source between torch and helmet light mod:

  

On 1/29/2022 at 10:40 PM, BarryTGash said:

Having a more tiered progression would be something: torch -> flashlight + duct tape mod* -> uber solar-powered helmet light mod.

 

The 'uber solar-powered helmet light mod' is what we have now. In my head canon it explains why it doesn't need batteries - it must charge during the day.

 

As for the flashlight + duct tape mod it should be terrible:

  

On 1/29/2022 at 10:40 PM, BarryTGash said:

so goddamned awful (dim/low range, flickering + the need for batteries and perhaps even have it flicker and shut off every couple of minutes at random so you've got to turn it on again for some real potential horror moments)

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by BarryTGash (see edit history)

[ktr]

I'd be happier with AGI builds getting a semi-night vision boost.  Would make the line WAY more valuable to go out early game at night when other lines want to stay inside. Especially since our most power tool is render near useless on horde nights.

[Laz Man]

2 hours ago, gurutar said:

are you saying you'd rather do away with the ability to mount torches anywhere you want? it becomes a moot point as soon as you acquire the book that allows you to craft helmet light mods, the schematic or a mod itself, and that could easily be very early. to me, needing to make that decision of whether to carry light in exchange for using a mediocre weapon isn't worth much, and i don't find whacking zombies for an unreasonable amount of time to be fun, which is why i never play on anything above Warrior.

 

 

Yes and no.  I think placing lights is important for base building but feel it minimizes the value of handheld and helmet lights.

 

It seems like there is room to improve the current implementation of lights more then just adding another primitive one that would just further trivialize their use.

[gurutar]

1 hour ago, Laz Man said:

 

Yes and no.  I think placing lights is important for base building but feel it minimizes the value of handheld and helmet lights.

 

It seems like there is room to improve the current implementation of lights more then just adding another primitive one that would just further trivialize their use.

 

i'm with you that handheld torches/flashlights are valuable to the game and are underutilized, especially the flashlight which can't be placed, but i think having your character have a decent weapon in one hand and a torch in the other is the best of both worlds. this is possible in all sorts of games, STALKER comes to mind, where you have an offhand accessory slot controlled by its own button. if you don't use it, your character uses both hands to use a pistol. put a flashlight in that slot and press its button, he will one-hand the pistol and bring out the flashlight with the other. this is a very common tactic used by police and military units.

 

you wouldn't even need to add a primitive light source to the game at all in that case, everything is already there.

[PoloPoPo]

I have never carried 15 torches with me ever. Always one only.

 

Comparing torches in 7D2D with other games, the first thing that comes to my mind is that torches here should not burn forever. One should be able to ignite them at campfires or burning barrels, otherwise they need gasoline to "craft" a burning torch from a burnt down one. If you put your torch back into your tool belt or inventory it should go off.

[BarryTGash]

2 hours ago, PoloPoPo said:

gasoline

 

I'd probably go with fat, as is, and oil - just to add to the cost (and add more use to oil). I think gasoline would be trivial very quickly - it doesn't take long to stockpile stacks. Granted, oil also builds up but only in stacks of 50.

 

Ah, to hell with it; fat, gasoline and oil.

Edited January 31, 2022 by BarryTGash (see edit history)