Endgame components and loot should be gated behind difficult dungeons

[geengaween]

I think I've solved the directionless endgame issue. We've all gotten to the point where we've built a base, we can survive indefinitely, we're now building the endgame stuff like turrets and blade traps, and the game gets boring.

 

Dungeons like the gun factory are an awesome idea. But they need to be sources of endgame loot and building materials which aren't obtainable elsewhere. Loot needs to make sense. For example, the gun factory should have an item that lets you make high level guns or turrets. A concrete factory should have the recipe for reinforced concrete. The hospital should have the recipe for medkits. You shouldn't be able to create endgame recipes without completing endgame objectives.

 

Random loot in this game needs to be categorized more strictly so you can't find high level stuff in low level residential houses, and you have to strategize your runs. This already was implemented somewhat in A19 with the electronics stores, etc, but it needs to go further. If you want something, you should be able to plan for it.

 

In a good survival game the fun of endgame is tackling high-level areas and enemies but there has to be a proper REASON to do this. Knowing that you'll be looting the same types of randomized containers that appear in other lower-level dungeons is just not a great incentive. I don't know about anyone else but for me it causes burnout and turns it into a chore more than an objective. You have to know that you'll get something good, from a pool of items that you can only get in those areas. The Lucky Looter perk and your % to find stuff is great and all, but it ends up ruining the game's sense of progression.

 

This could also lead into high-level trader quests to find essential civilization items such as "find a crate of baby formula" in an infested half-collapsed milk factory. Or finding jackpots like luxuries, like a crate of shampoo in a cosmetics factory which you can sell for 3000 dukes.

 

TL;DR: The randomized loot is too random and hurts the endgame. The loot system needs to be categorized more strictly, forcing players to plan their loot runs and travel to specific buildings in order to progress their gear and base.

[meganoth]

3 hours ago, geengaween said:

I think I've solved the directionless endgame issue. We've all gotten to the point where we've built a base, we can survive indefinitely, we're now building the endgame stuff like turrets and blade traps, and the game gets boring.

 

Dungeons like the gun factory are an awesome idea. But they need to be sources of endgame loot and building materials which aren't obtainable elsewhere. Loot needs to make sense. For example, the gun factory should have an item that lets you make high level guns or turrets. A concrete factory should have the recipe for reinforced concrete. The hospital should have the recipe for medkits. You shouldn't be able to create endgame recipes without completing endgame objectives.

 

Random loot in this game needs to be categorized more strictly so you can't find high level stuff in low level residential houses, and you have to strategize your runs. This already was implemented somewhat in A19 with the electronics stores, etc, but it needs to go further. If you want something, you should be able to plan for it.

 

In a good survival game the fun of endgame is tackling high-level areas and enemies but there has to be a proper REASON to do this. Knowing that you'll be looting the same types of randomized containers that appear in other lower-level dungeons is just not a great incentive. I don't know about anyone else but for me it causes burnout and turns it into a chore more than an objective. You have to know that you'll get something good, from a pool of items that you can only get in those areas. The Lucky Looter perk and your % to find stuff is great and all, but it ends up ruining the game's sense of progression.

 

This could also lead into high-level trader quests to find essential civilization items such as "find a crate of baby formula" in an infested half-collapsed milk factory. Or finding jackpots like luxuries, like a crate of shampoo in a cosmetics factory which you can sell for 3000 dukes.

 

TL;DR: The randomized loot is too random and hurts the endgame. The loot system needs to be categorized more strictly, forcing players to plan their loot runs and travel to specific buildings in order to progress their gear and base.

 

I assume this is the reason why they implement this (from first page Dev Dairy):

"

Quote

 

8.) Biome Difficulty

• Snow and Desert will have gamestage boost creating tougher enemies and better loot
• Wasteland will have a greater gamestage boost creating even tougher enemies and even better loot

 

Because AFAIK this will also be implemented for single POIs, not sure when (item 11 of that list could actually be about POI-specific gamestage bonuses). This would be an elegant method to make the gun factory more difficult with a single parameter instead of a rather inflexible setting up by hand of zombies in there.

 

[Kam R.]

The Shamway special safe already proves it could be easily implemented to have separate containers with better loot chances and even special loot groups (cigar in this case).

I'd love to see more of that.

Make such containers harder to open (more hp, only damage from steel/motor tools, not lockpick-able, or at least very low chance for lockpick success) and put them behind loads of Zs.

Give them their own loot group and maybe even add more special items fitting to the POi they're at. Would make exploration of the map late game a lot more fun, since it would give more stuff to collect and you could actually do expeditions with a specific (loot) goal in mind rather than expeditions where you hope rng gives you what you seek.

 

The whole gamestage based system always felt disconnected, maybe the update will change that. But I think some "classic" in-world loot gates are possible and not a bad thing.

[Matt115]

10 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

I assume this is the reason why they implement this (from first page Dev Dairy):

"

 

Because AFAIK this will also be implemented for single POIs, not sure when (item 11 of that list could actually be about POI-specific gamestage bonuses). This would be an elegant method to make the gun factory more difficult with a single parameter instead of a rather inflexible setting up by hand of zombies in there.

 

@meganoth do you think it mean : more types of zombies in future?

[meganoth]

32 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

@meganoth do you think it mean : more types of zombies in future?

This has nothing to do with types of zombies.

 

[Roland]

There are more specialized containers in A20 for particular POI types. I believe they are moving towards what you guys are wanting.

[Matt115]

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

This has nothing to do with types of zombies.

 

i hope this will be not  working in cod style - this same zombie but more hp 😕

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

i hope this will be not  working in cod style - this same zombie but more hp 😕

 

I have said nothing about new zombies at all.

 

[Maharin]

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

i hope this will be not  working in cod style - this same zombie but more hp 😕

[Roland]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

 

I have said nothing about new zombies at all.

 

 

I think he focused on the "tougher enemies" part of the quote regarding the biome gamestage boosting.

 

BTW....do you think it all means that there will be an underwater biome that is tougher and full of carnivorous monster fish? What have you said about that?

[Laz Man]

Looting is very different in A20.   Although I don't think it will ever be perfect, I hope the majority feel it is an improvement. 😀

[meganoth]

8 hours ago, Roland said:

 

I think he focused on the "tougher enemies" part of the quote regarding the biome gamestage boosting.

 

BTW....do you think it all means that there will be an underwater biome that is tougher and full of carnivorous monster fish? What have you said about that?

 

There were rumours about 7D2D in space or on other planets, I read it on the internet. And isn't underwater very similar to space in many ways? While I don't want to imply space sharks, ... but well, it must be that!

 

SPACE SHARKS, we are getting SPACE SHARKS  🤩, as sure as ziplines.

 

 

😁

Edited September 24, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Matt115]

11 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

I have said nothing about new zombies at all.

 

I know i know 😀

 

9 hours ago, Roland said:

 

I think he focused on the "tougher enemies" part of the quote regarding the biome gamestage boosting.

 

BTW....do you think it all means that there will be an underwater biome that is tougher and full of carnivorous monster fish? What have you said about that?

Well yes and no.  - this sound's similiar to this new thing in cod on round-based maps - you use this and zombie became faster and came quicker so you can get 20 round in 30 minutes instead 1 hour. But it 7dtds is sound like - you can find faster in this zone ak47 but soldier zombie will start spawning earlier. But without any "exclusive" features - like soldiers instead of bandits ( works this just diffrent models and better stats but this is exclusive variant of enemy).

Btw. underwater biome? it just can't works good fore "realistic" setting. So swamp biome with drowned zombies sounds more logical. 

Small fun fact about me : i love swamps, they are just comfy for me in rly and in games. I have hydrophobes. I have problem to on another side of city because i need go on the bridge and this is annoying as hell. When i saw subnatica cluthulu mod gameplay i get panic attack brrr. 

 

6 hours ago, Laz Man said:

Looting is very different in A20.   Although I don't think it will ever be perfect, I hope the majority feel it is an improvement. 😀

Yeah i know yyou can't talk about it but i hope it will be more like : in military base will be gun cabinet with 100% chance of getting a gun. in Hospital you can find pills etc because stone hammer in military crate looks bad. I know this is connected with gamestage but in my opinions some places like this should have 100% chance of finding guns. This is like you could only find fiber clothes in clothes shops because you have too small gamestage

44 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

There were rumours about 7D2D in space or on other planets, I read it on the internet. And isn't underwater very similar to space in many ways? While I don't want to imply space sharks, ... but well, it must be that!

 

SPACE SHARKS, we are getting SPACE SHARKS  🤩, as sure as ziplines.

 

 

😁

Well this idea sound just stupid. but underwater zone could works only in one situation : flooded zone. Something like- Dam was bombarded near a city - some buidling , cars etc are underwater. You can find there drowned type of zombie. In l4d2 you have flooted city so it can work. space just can't XD

[Roland]

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

Well this idea sound just stupid. space just can't XD

 

What about now?

 

[Matt115]

16 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

What about now?

 

This  looks like some type of SCP. Well i wish TFP created a game when you place as trader in newsstand in 7dtd universe XD

[unholyjoe]

1 minute ago, Matt115 said:

This  looks like some type of SCP. Well i wish TFP created a game when you place as trader in newsstand in 7dtd universe XD

start getting used to the prefab editor as we all are waiting to see your ultimate prefab newstand (with a trader inside) and a skeleton on outside in front of the window.

[Matt115]

Just now, unholyjoe said:

start getting used to the prefab editor as we all are waiting to see your ultimate prefab newstand (with a trader inside) and a skeleton on outside in front of the window.

Damn, good idea but i need good skeleton model to create that! pls i  rly need skeleton prop for it!

[doughphunghus]

44 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

What about now?

 

Is that the International Snack Station?

[Maharin]

6 minutes ago, doughphunghus said:

Is that the International Snack Station?

 

I might just venture into orbit for a visit to that...  Not sure I'd bother going through years of training first, though.

[meganoth]

28 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

Damn, good idea but i need good skeleton model to create that! pls i  rly need skeleton prop for it!

 

1) Do not eat for 100 days.

2) Let yourself dry off another 200 days.

3) Make a picture of yourself

 

[Maharin]

3 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

1) Do not eat for 100 days.

2) Let yourself dry off another 200 days.

3) Make a picture of yourself

 

 

Your day requirements seem a bit excessive, especially if you live in a desert.

[Laz Man]

As cool as it would be to get a tier 3 anything on day 1 at the hardest POI in the game, it is probably not going to happen with the current design of the game.

 

Maybe if weapons and armor became irrepairable at some point requiring players to find or craft a new one, getting one so early would just kill progression and alot of incentive to keep looting.

[Maharin]

8 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

As cool as it would be to get a tier 3 anything on day 1 at the hardest POI in the game, it is probably not going to happen with the current design of the game.

 

Maybe if weapons and armor became irrepairable at some point requiring players to find or craft a new one, getting one so early would just kill progression and alot of incentive to keep looting.

 

Considering the hardest POIs would likely be in the hardest biome, I doubt we'll have to worry much about it even if it did happen.  If the difficulty adjustments are big enough then finding a hard POI in the wasteland should be nearly impossible to get to for just about anyone on day one.

 

Also, I vote not allowing beds to be placed in the wasteland.  If you're hardcore enough to live there then you don't need a bed anyway.

[Matt115]

6 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

As cool as it would be to get a tier 3 anything on day 1 at the hardest POI in the game, it is probably not going to happen with the current design of the game.

 

Maybe if weapons and armor became irrepairable at some point requiring players to find or craft a new one, getting one so early would just kill progression and alot of incentive to keep looting.

Well honestly  well : you can find AK47 1 tier but this is just 1 tier. So guns (armor is diffrent thing), melee and ranged weapons should be conneted with some location- sledgehammer (no matter about tier and quality) could be found in construction site, guns in military base, basketball in school, bow in hunting cabin etc.  ofc you could find even 10 AK47 tier 1 in first day in military base and still be forced to way for 5 day to find AK47 tier 2. about hardest POI- it would need zombie "connected" with this POI and hard to eliminated or avoid- like 5 spider zombie and fat cop in armory- and even if you manage to Do this someohow ( i think people would find exploit nomatter what) you will just find 1 tier AK47.

[JCrook1028]

3 hours ago, Matt115 said:

but in my opinions some places like this should have 100% chance of finding guns

I don't think ANY place should have 100% chance of finding ANYTHING. My 2c.